1-A for Living Tribunal?

[Alonis3612]

Living Tribunal is usually shown to be the embodiment of Marvel multiverse, however his position is quite unique. Besides being just the embodiment of the multiverse, he is also the servant and representative of One-Above-All, apparently having some additional power.

Anyway, Living Tribunal transcends and judges the dualities, such as time and un-time, space and un-space, existence and nothingness, chaos and order, etc.






Givent that, and considering that he is supposed to be more powerful than Oblivion, I think he should be given tier 1-B (since in some/most of his appearances he is strictly 1-B) to 1-A (true self), depending on his incarnation/M-Body.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Well, he is describing himself as transcending both duality and space-time in the scans you posted.

That would indeed be 1-A.

But I want to know what others think.

 

[Ryukama]

@Matt That seems like 1-A as well. I'm also uncertain why we can't acknowledge the fact that TLT is stronger than Oblivion because of the whole "embodies the multiverse" thing.

I'll wait to see what others think as well.

Also are there others you can think of that would scale to this?

 

[Alonis3612]

Well, he is describing himself as transcending both duality and space-time in the scans you posted.
That would indeed be 1-A.

But I want to know what others think.

Ok, because when I look at Oblivion's 1-A and on LT's profile I feel awkward. He is can also summon the power of TOAA at will like when he shut down Infinity Gauntlet.

 

[Alonis3612]

@Matt That seems like 1-A as well. I'm also uncertain why we can't acknowledge the fact that TLT is stronger than Oblivion because of the whole "embodies the multiverse" thing.
I'll wait to see what others think as well.

Also are there others you can think of that would scale to this?

I think that he is the embodiment of the multiverse, but has additional power as the Guardian of the multiverse and representative of TOAA's will. It was also said that he exists in all multiverses and apparently judges them too.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Okay, but being the embodiment of the Universe doesn't make him 1-A. And as we can see in the Heart of the Universe Storylines, the merest fraction of TOAA's power >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Him.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Also in The Ultimates #100, it was made clear that the whole Marvel Universe would collapse and only Oblivion would remain. Even The First Firmament would end.

 

[Alonis3612]

Okay, but being the embodiment of the Universe doesn't make him 1-A. And as we can see in the Heart of the Universe Storylines, the merest fraction of TOAA's power >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Him.

Well, even if that was TOAA's fraction, that does not mean LT is weak. Everything in Marvel including LT are fractions of TOAA's power. It could have been just a bigger fraction. In any case, that story was written by Jim Starlin who is known do make stories full of inconsistency and PIS such as Death of New Gods or Infinity Finale. Like I mentioned, not all of LT's incarnations are 1-A, i just think that this should be LT's true self.

 

[Alonis3612]

Also in The Ultimates #100, it was made clear that the whole Marvel Universe would collapse and only Oblivion would remain. Even The First Firmament would end.

Yes, but wasn't LT already deat at the time?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Yes, but it shows that Oblivion > LT since even the Living Tribunal would be destroyed and cease to be.

 

[Ryukama]

@Matt So maybe Oblivion is greater than LT afterall. I still think the OP's reasons might be good enough to make him 1-A. Who scales to LT though?

 

[Alonis3612]

Yes, but it shows that Oblivion > LT since even the Living Tribunal would be destroyed and cease to be.

It doesn't mention LT, it was said about everything else that was left, Tribunal was long ago dead (of course if we are talking about the same scan). Living Tribunal himself said that he is second only to TOAA, and Handbook confirms that.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Yes, bu the Tribunal is the Law of the Multiverse. If all of existence including all the Abstracts would be dead but Oblivion would remain, then LT would also die and not remain.

Him being second only to TOAA is demonstably false given the times he lost.

 

[Alonis3612]

Yes, bu the Tribunal is the Law of the Multiverse. If all of existence including all the Abstracts would be dead but Oblivion would remain, then LT would also die and not remain.
Him being second only to TOAA is demonstably false given the times he lost.

1) You don't know about that, maybe he could survive all multiverse and other abstract's death.

2) Like i said, 1-A should not be scaled for all his appearances, in most of his forms he is 1-B.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

"1) You don't know about that, maybe he could survive all multiverse and other abstract's death."

Except that even the thing that led to him dying in the first place was dying. The First Firmament is stronger than TLT and it was dying too.

"2) Like i said, 1-A should not be scaled for all his appearances, in most of his forms he is 1-B."

Okay, but the full entity of the Tribunal was killed by the Beyonders. And HOTU Thanos also beat him.

 

[Alonis3612]

Given that he exists in all multiverses, and Oblivion is subject to his authority, he could be not limited as the law of the single multiverse.

 

[Kavpeny]

Please read the Tiering System. Transcending multiverses, or even complete, 11-dimensional multiverses = nothing compared to being categorized for 1-A.

Servant/representative/right hand/etc. - again, irrelevant terminology. None of those terms are remotely qualified to change a character's tier from High 1-B to 1-A.

At no point has TLT shown to be capable of transcending the concept of dimensionality altogether, and existing beyond a Hilbert-space space-time structure.

Given that, and considering that he is supposed to be more powerful than Oblivio

And just what exactly is that inference based on? Marvel's cosmic hierarchy is not exactly my domain, but a look at Oblivion's profile states that Oblivion has never been observed under TLT's jurisdiction.

 

[ShrekAlmighty]

Dunno i kinda agree with matthew

 

[Alonis3612]

"1) You don't know about that, maybe he could survive all multiverse and other abstract's death."
Except that even the thing that led to him dying in the first place was dying. The First Firmament is stronger than TLT and it was dying too.

"2) Like i said, 1-A should not be scaled for all his appearances, in most of his forms he is 1-B."

Okay, but the full entity of the Tribunal was killed by the Beyonders. And HOTU Thanos also beat him.

1) LT could have been survived, as he is an abstract being and M-Body is only his physical form.

2) With the Beyonders, I think that LT was 1-B otherwise that would have made no sence. Plus that story was full of inconsistency like Beyonder's durability, and LT was already weakened by the numbers of cosmic entities and abstracts killed by the Beyonders, and if i am not mistaken the multiverse already had just few hundred thousand universes instead of infinite number.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

"Given that he exists in all multiverses, and Oblivion is subject to his authority, he could be not limited as the law of the single multiverse."

Megaverse = Collection of local multiverses. Read the Doctor Strange's scans on TLT's profile. There is only one complete Multiverse under the Tribunal's jurisdiction. The full multiverse was collapsing in The Ultimates and Oblivion would remain.

"With the Beyonders, I think that LT was 1-B otherwise that would have made no sence."

It was the full Tribunal. Until they retcon that it was an M-Body you cannot just theorize it wasn't.

 

[Alonis3612]

Please read the Tiering System. Transcending multiverses, or even complete, 11-dimensional multiverses = nothing compared to being categorized for 1-A.
Servant/representative/right hand/etc. - again, irrelevant terminology. None of those terms are remotely qualified to change a character's tier from High 1-B to 1-A.

At no point has TLT shown to be capable of transcending the concept of dimensionality altogether, and existing beyond a Hilbert-space space-time structure.


Given that, and considering that he is supposed to be more powerful than Oblivio

And just what exactly is that inference based on? Marvel's cosmic hierarchy is not exactly my domain, but a look at Oblivion's profile states that Oblivion has never been observed under TLT's jurisdiction.
My claim was that true LT transcends dualities, and likewise Oblivion as well. Handbook says Oblivion is subject to LT's authority as well as all abstracts. At will, he can summon extra power from TOAA.

 

[Ryukama]

Please read the Tiering System. Transcending multiverses, or even complete, 11-dimensional multiverses = nothing compared to being categorized for 1-A.
At no point has TLT shown to be capable of transcending the concept of dimensionality altogether, and existing beyond a Hilbert-space space-time structure.

Except he doesn't transcend 11-dimensional multiverses. He transcends multiverses that have repeatedly been established to be infinite dimensional, hence his current rating. And according to these scans he is stated to exist beyond space-time, the multiverse and duality.

 

[Alonis3612]

"Given that he exists in all multiverses, and Oblivion is subject to his authority, he could be not limited as the law of the single multiverse."
Megaverse = Collection of local multiverses. Read the Doctor Strange's scans on TLT's profile. There is only one complete Multiverse under the Tribunal's jurisdiction. The full multiverse was collapsing in The Ultimates and Oblivion would remain.

"With the Beyonders, I think that LT was 1-B otherwise that would have made no sence."

It was the full Tribunal. Until they retcon that it was an M-Body you cannot just theorize it wasn't.

The scans with Dr. Strange doesn't say that LT's authority is limited to a single multiverse, he is just saying that LT oversees that multiverse, since he is explaining the concept of his multiverse itself.

Of course that was M-Body, basically all of abstract's appearences are M-Bodies. true abstracts have no physical form.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I agree that the Old Living Tribunal is probably 1-A given these scans. The New Tribunal is still uncertain.

 

[Alonis3612]

What's wrong with being the embodiment of the multiverse and having some extra power from higher authority of TOAA? LT's simultaneus omnipresence in all multiverseS shows that he has higher power than that of just over one multiverse.

 

[Alonis3612]

I agree that the Old Living Tribunal is probably 1-A given these scans. The New Tribunal is still uncertain.

The new Living Tribunal is omg since he is just a fraction of original weakened LT yet according to himself he can deal with the Beyonders. Unless in Starling's writing, he made it so that there is Living Tribunal for every universe. This still is omg.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Please stop misunderstanding things or inventing headcanons.

1) There is only one, complete, infinite-dimensional mutiverse. The multiple multiverses are simply "Local multiverses" that are part of the greater whole.

2) New Tribunal isn't a fraction of a weakened LT, he is the full entity but is being given the worf effect repeatedly as of late

3) There is only one New Tribunal in the Multiverse.

 

[Alonis3612]

Please stop misunderstanding things or inventing headcanons.
1) There is only one, complete, infinite-dimensional mutiverse. The multiple multiverses are simply "Local multiverses" that are part of the greater whole.

2) New Tribunal isn't a fraction of a weakened LT, he is the full entity but is being given the worf effect repeatedly as of late

3) There is only one New Tribunal in the Multiverse.

1) I thought it so earlier, But there are many contradictions about that so that's why I think there is one multi-dimensional multiverse consisting of other multiverses and infinite number of other "multiverses".

2) Adam Warlock was strictly said to be the embodiment of a single universe.

3) Of course.

 

[Alonis3612]

Anyway, would old LT's profile have 1-A now? I have also have some improvements for IG, Silver Surfer, Skyfathers, and many others.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, the problem is that the Living Tribunal has been stated to be the sum totality of several of the multiversal abstract entities, and the embodiment of the Marvel multiverse. That places him squarely in the High 1-B tier.

In addition, it has been killed by Lord Chaos and Master Order empowered by the First Firmament, which would also place the entity at High 1-B.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

"Well, the problem is that the Living Tribunal has been stated to be the sum totality of several of the multiversal abstract entities, and the embodiment of the Marvel multiverse. That places him squarely in the High 1-B tier."

Well, I was talking to Ventus and he says that it is possible for the Embodiment of a Multiverse to be 1-A, just like it is possible for a human in fiction to be Low 2-C.

 

[Antvasima]

Also, I see nothing in the scans from the first post that indicate that the entity transcends the actual concepts of dimensions of time and space altogether.

 

[Antvasima]

A multiverse that is stated to be infinite-dimensional is High 1-B per definition, and so are any entities that embody it.

 

[Alonis3612]

Well, the problem is that the Living Tribunal has been stated to be the sum totality of several of the multiversal abstract entities, and the embodiment of the Marvel multiverse. That places him squarely in the High 1-B tier.
In addition, it has been killed by Lord Chaos and Master Order empowered by the First Firmament, which would also place the entity at High 1-B.

On the first occasion, like I already said, I think there is nothing wrong with LT being the embodiment of the multiverse. He has additional authority from TOAA and has the closest connection to him, can summon his power and do his wishes, this certainly gives LT an unique positon in Marvel hierarchy. He transcends and rules the dualities.

As for the second one, that was not the original LT, and previous hierarchy had no meaning in the reborn multiverse, that's why he was killed.

 

[Alonis3612]

Also, I see nothing in the scans from the first post that indicate that the entity transcends the actual concepts of dimensions of time and space altogether.

He says that he transcends dualities, and shows that he is not bound by for example the concept of time as he can speak with Silver Surfer in time stop.

 

[Antvasima]

If you read the actual whole Silver Surfer story featuring the Stranger, you would notice that the Tribunal states that he is the sum totality of the dualities of Eternity, Death, Chaos, and Order, that is it.

The two Living Tribunals are supposed to be equal, and a changed hierarchy of power among abstract entities does not affect the number of dimensions in the multiverse itself.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

"If you read the actual whole Silver Surfer story featuring the Stranger, you would notice that the Tribunal states that he is the sum totality of the dualities of Eternity, Death, Chaos, and Order, that is it."

Actually, he states that he embodies basically everything. He just gives Eternity, Death, Infinity, the Stranger, Chaos, Order and In-Betweener as examples.

The story is saying that he is beyond duality.

 

[Antvasima]

Stopping time and being an embodiment of different abstract entities does not mean a 1-A rating.

I am very tired of recurrently having to have discussion about the Living Tribunal's rating, and would prefer if we close this thread, as I am leaving for a local festival shortly.

 

[Antvasima]

No, the story says that his face embody Eternity, Death, Galactus, Chaos, Order, and the In-Betweener, and the missing face the stranger.

Later on this is verified when he is shown to be the embodiment of everything in the multiverse

 

[Alonis3612]

If you read the actual whole Silver Surfer story featuring the Stranger, you would notice that the Tribunal states that he is the sum totality of the dualities of Eternity, Death, Chaos, and Order, that is it.
The two Living Tribunals are supposed to be equal, and a changed hierarchy of power among abstract entities does not affect the number of dimensions in the multiverse itself.

Hes says that he transcends all dualities. I don't think that just being the embodiment of everything wouldn't make him something that can transcend time and space.

The whole thing about equal Tribunal is debatable because there are many contradictions. Don't understand what you meant in the second sentence.