1-A Clarification

[Reiner04]

no concept of space

Case by case thing, if verse treats it as something entirely different and transcendent/outside from the rest of the cosmos as an very idea of space without which "spacetime" would have no meaning. Then 1a seems more suitable. Well no, isn't our 1a is also a uncountable number of dimensions rather than something outside of dimensions?

 

[Furudo_Erika]

Let me expand on that since I didn't have time:
By not participating in the concept of space, any amount of dimensions would thus have no meaning to them as they will never participate in any number of them.

 

[PrinceofPein]

Case by case thing, if verse treats it as something entirely different and transcendent/outside from the rest of the cosmos as an very idea of space without which "spacetime" would have no meaning. Then 1a seems more suitable. Well no, isn't our 1a is also a uncountable number of dimensions rather than something outside of dimensions?

That's low 1-A

 

[PrinceofPein]

Let me expand on that since I didn't have time:
By not participating in the concept of space, any amount of dimensions would thus have no meaning to them as they will never participate in any number of them.

Again
If you stated not to participate in the concept of space in a 4D world with no further context, that is Low 1-C

 

[Reiner04]

Just to think what has been explained in FAQ is quite more amazing if gone in depth.

Entirely independent of dimensions:-
That would mean either if number of dimensions is (aleph1) low 1a or power set of low 1a mean 1a to power set of after math to adinfinitum to infinity (aleph2 to whatsoover) and then we have high 1a that is logically an amount of inaccessible cardinal number of dimensions, completely unreachable from below. Aren't all there are dimensions as well? We have boundless with a same gap as a gap between 1a and high 1a, that means it's still under the influence of dimensions.... Where are we now? Why is it only low 1a or 1a in the first place if it is? I guess it should be removed or be clarified on what it says.

 

[Kuuzo7]

It is still a NLF assumption, as you assume that when a character create a cosmology from nothing with a concept, said character and concept is beyond all definition of dimension/space-time thus 1-A. It is a big leap in logic

The thing I like with thoses posst is the fact the user is commiting the fallacy he made a comment.
First, the concept is not created untill the character created it.
Second, a concept is not " beyond all definition". If you don't know what a concept even means in the first place, dont comment on a thread talking about it:

concept - Wiktionary, the free dictionary

en.wiktionary.org

Lastly, since it's clear you don't understand the implication of your poor reasoning, I'll address it as a question: Can a character still be able any configuration of space independent of the concept to which it is related . Put in another context:

It is still a NLF assumption

Does this sentence can still convey the message you wanted to transmit if we deprive each word of its meaning. Don't tap dance arount the question, stay consistent with your framework.

 

[Reiner04]

concept

The problem is this word, which is used losely not just around but in fiction as well.
Example :- concept of space time is nowadays used in several blogs for spacetime continuum that Elbert Einstein proposed. It's basically can even be an common understanding over how normally spacetime works to the limit we understand it.

"A generalization, proposed idea, thought" as that wiki states you just linked to.

 

[Reiner04]

Alot of context is definitely needed.

 

[Kuuzo7]

No matter what cosmology he creates from the ground up, there will be showing of dimensionality or what they are capable of doing or the limit,

Care to make it sense?

so yes it will simply be n+1D without further context.

Then the character did not create any concept, but another higher space if your method is as following: "n+1D".
This logic, again, only implies to n-dimensional characters, as I have already demonstrated in my previous posts:

As I've demonstrated in my previous subpoint, this logic only applies for n-dimensional characters such as 4 four dimensional character who creates 3 - 4 dimensional space. In this exemple, the four dimensional character would be "one layer above the spaces of the cosmology" by scaling directly to all characters below 4 < n who are part of the space he created, as, like I already explained, they are still n > 4-dimensional characters who are well far out of his reach. However, this, again, can't logically be applied to a character who creates the concept of space as there are not "spaces" that such a character would not be able to transcend. Logic 101.

Or you have a practical example of a verse that the Supreme being created from.the ground up, but there was no showing of the dimensionality?
Please say the name of the verse

I did not specifcy "a Supreme Being", I said a character. As for the question:

Only the Demiurgic Power, bestowed by God Himself, could bring a new cosmos out of the endless beginningles nothing.

 

[Kuuzo7]

Any character that is called omnipotent.

-> " Provide one exemple of a fictional character who is truly Omnipotent."
--> "Any character this is called omnipotent".
This is the best one so far. I'll create another thread to list all characters who must be upgraded based on reasoning that they have been called "Omnipotent".
I wont entertain further this silly point.

The same way "transcending the concept of space" is an arbitrary label with no meaning.

That's the point of having a dictionary, i.e, to help you understand the meaning of words you don't know.

??? This is incoherent. You have to specify what you are responding to.

A simple research would have tell you I'm taling about the DC Universe.

 

[Vietthai96]

Case by case thing, if verse treats it as something entirely different and transcendent/outside from the rest of the cosmos as an very idea of space without which "spacetime" would have no meaning. Then 1a seems more suitable. Well no, isn't our 1a is also a uncountable number of dimensions rather than something outside of dimensions?

1. Like i said before, if the verse establish the cosmology clearly then yes, if not, then no we are not going to give 1-A randomly
2. Uncountable infinite layers of dimension is Low 1-A

First, the concept is not created untill the character created it.

Still give nothing, you again assuming the same thing that concept of space equal all definition of dimension, don't participate in it mean you mean you beyond all definition of dimension which is NLF

Second, a concept is not " beyond all definition". If you don't know what a concept even means in the first place, dont comment on a thread talking about it:

concept - Wiktionary, the free dictionary

en.wiktionary.org

1. I didn't exactly say it, probably you misunderstood. And the later part is unnecessary
2. Concept can mean anything, without contexts it is meaningless, concept can mean general notion, idea or the very abstract concept that form reality

Lastly, since it's clear you don't understand the implication of your poor reasoning, I'll address it as a question: Can a character still be able any configuration of space independent of the concept to which it is related . Put in another context:
Does this sentence can still convey the message you wanted to transmit if we deprive each word of its meaning. Don't tap dance arount the question, stay consistent with your framework.

Wdym by configuration of space independent of concept???. My english is not too good so could you re-explain it??

Also why the aggression???

 

[PrinceofPein]

Care to make it sense?

No, can't make sense any other than that.

Again creating the concept of space means nothing, for example Ajimu created the concept of space in her verse and the world was a 3D world with 3-D character and all. Would you say she is 1-A? Even though she predates the concept of space?

Again your transcend the concept of space needs more context or it is just within the limit of your verse settings

 

[Reiner04]

2. Uncountable infinite layers of dimension is Low 1-Q

Agree but Comon how many members are going to mention it I just typed it in hurry regardless my above post quite describes why these kinds of spaces are way higher than low 1a or 1a.

Just to think what has been explained in FAQ is quite more amazing if gone in depth.

Entirely independent of dimensions:-
That would mean either if number of dimensions is (aleph1) low 1a or power set of low 1a mean 1a to power set of after math to adinfinitum to infinity (aleph2 to whatsoover) and then we have high 1a that is logically an amount of inaccessible cardinal number of dimensions, completely unreachable from below. Aren't all there are dimensions as well? We have boundless with a same gap as a gap between 1a and high 1a, that means it's still under the influence of dimensions.... Where are we now? Why is it only low 1a or 1a in the first place if it is? I guess it should be removed or be clarified on what it says.

 

[Reiner04]

concept

Is a vague term, doesn't mean anything without proper context. Only on basis of this word is a rat arguement.

Verse needs to show proper context over what they mean by concept of spacetime.

 

[Reiner04]

1-Q

1-A

 

[Vietthai96]

1-A

I clicked wrong button bruhh, since the Q is above A on keyboard bruhhh

 

[Darksmash]

This is the best one so far. I'll create another thread to list all characters who must be upgraded based on reasoning that they have been called "Omnipotent".
I wont entertain further this silly point.

This isn't something I support. This "silly" reasoning was an example to counter your concept of space arguments. Don't shift the goalpost.

That's the point of having a dictionary, i.e, to help you understand the meaning of words you don't know.

And a single phrase can have an endless number of interpretations and meanings based on a dictionary. "Transcending the concept of space" can literally just amount to something as simple as teleportation or omnipresence based on context.

A simple research would have tell you I'm taling about the DC Universe.

No I meant what portion of my post you were responding to. But anyway, considering you skipped the last part of my post I assume you concede that omnipotence can indeed exist in fiction?

 

[Kuuzo7]

The problem is this word

That's clearly not a problem, unless you are still living in the same periode of time when Einstein came up with a model of a four dimensional spacetime universe.
We know by now that "space" is just no longer 3-dimensional, and can have properties that includes extra-dimensions.
And even without resorting to extra-dimensions as a point,the cosmic inflation that caused the expansion of the Big Bang did not just expand necessearly only a 3-dimensional, but all of space.

• The Big Bang did not occur at a single point in space as an "explosion." It is better thought of as the simultaneous appearance of space everywhere in the universe. That region of space that is within our present horizon was indeed no bigger than a point in the past. Nevertheless, if all of space both inside and outside our horizon is infinite now, it was born infinite. If it is closed and finite, then it was born with zero volume and grew from that. In neither case is there a "center of expansion" - a point from which the universe is expanding away from an origin point. In the ball analogy, the radius of the ball grows as the universe expands, but all points on the surface of the ball (the universe) recede from each other in an identical fashion. The interior of the ball should not be regarded as part of the universe in this analogy.

WMAP Big Bang Concepts

Public access site for The Wilkinson Microwave Anisotropy Probe and associated information about cosmology.

map.gsfc.nasa.gov

Including even extra-dimensions, and, as a matter of fact, there are theories addressing the question of why a 3-dimensional space we are living instead of other dimensions, and one of the first attempts to answer this question is that the rest of the dimensions that make up our universe did not have time to develop properly like ours.

Why Do We Live in Three Dimensions?

[/caption] Day to day life has made us all comfortable with 3 dimensions; we constantly interact with objects that have height, width, and depth. But why our universe has three spatial dimensions has been a problem for physicists, especially since the 3-dimensional universe isn’t easily...

www.universetoday.com

So, it's a misconception to say that

The problem is this word

It's not, especially at the time we are living.

 

[Reiner04]

whatever state of being in which they exist is completely independent of the number of layers/dimensions present on the setting.

Anyway what justifies it to 1a or any higher? Something that is different than the space whose property is to have dimensions why does it have to be a kind of canvas to our space of dimensions? I can say samething about such spaces that if this kind of spaces are stacked infinitely even then they wouldn't amount to anything in our dimensions of space. And so our space can act as canvas now.

It's needed to be removed or someone justify it.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Damn, people till now still thinks that true omnipotence exists in fiction and should be taken literal
Anyways, I disagree with CRT. We no longer give characters 1-A only because they transcend the concept of space. Heck, at max concept manipulation lol

Edit: Not even author can comprehend the true omnipotence definition, heck, not you or me can till now define it.

 

[Furudo_Erika]

You can reach 1-A without infinite dimension, but it is if the verse give enough contexts, and clearly establish its cosmology.

Such as what? What "context" would be necessary that does not involve any inclusion of infinite dimensions or anything vaguely describing them?

 

[Darksmash]

Damn, people till now still thinks that true omnipotence exists in fiction and should be taken literal

Yes, I think it's possible within the context of fiction. But in this thread I only used it as a point of argument, not something I would actually support.

 

[Kuuzo7]

Still give nothing

It's was not even the point in the first place to further explain why it's should be at low 1-A, as I was only pointing out something you have distorted.

2. Concept can mean anything, without contexts it is meaningless, concept can mean general notion, idea or the very abstract concept that form reality

Thanks to Wikitionary.
That being said, my thread is clear on the fact that I'm using the terms "concept of space' related to a cosmology that was lacking any dimensionality until it was created by a character. Saying there is not "context" rather shows you did not read the thread.

Wdym by configuration of space independent of concept???. My english is not too good so could you re-explain it??

Can a character still be able to create any configuration of space apart from the concept to which it is related . I gave you an exemple of what I meant.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Yes, I think it's possible within the context of fiction. But in this thread I only used it as a point of argument, not something I would actually support.

No, it is not possible, something like this does not exist in fiction. Author most of the time when they use the term, they just want to describe it as “all-mighty, Godlike, all powerful” that's it.

 

[Kuuzo7]

This isn't something I support. This "silly" reasoning was an example to counter your concept of space arguments. Don't shift the goalpost.

It was still a poor attempt, as you failed to provide one fictional character who is "Omnipotent". This point would have been" acceptable" if there was even a single one.

And a single phrase can have an endless number of interpretations and meanings based on a dictionary. "Transcending the concept of space" can literally just amount to something as simple as teleportation or omnipresence based on context.

This is irrelevant, as the thread is clear about the context. Otherwise, you could have asked me to clarify in what sense I'm using the terms "concept of space", but you still decided to give your opinion.

No I meant what portion of my post you were responding to.

Maybe because there was not "portion", but instead I was responding to your point that "the concept of space also encompasses real life."

But anyway, considering you skipped the last part of my post I assume you concede that omnipotence can indeed exist in fiction?

I suggest you to read my previous posts on this matter.

 

[Darksmash]

No, it is not possible, something like this does not exist in fiction. Author most of the time when they use the term, they just want to describe it as “all-mighty, Godlike, all powerful” that's it.

Yet you provide no justification.

 

[Vietthai96]

Such as what? What "context" would be necessary that does not involve any inclusion of infinite dimensions or anything vaguely describing them?

There are some, like this which use Apophatic Theology, some use math

It's was not even the point in the first place to further explain why it's should be at low 1-A, as I was only pointing out something you have distorted.

Uh oh, i distorted what???

Thanks to Wikitionary.
That being said, my thread is clear on the fact that I'm using the terms "concept of space' related to a cosmology that was lacking any dimensionality until it was created by a character. Saying there is not "context" rather shows you did not read the thread.

And, you still assuming that lacking any dimensionality before the creation of the concept of space mean when a character create the concept of space, said cosmology instantly = uncountable infinite amount of dimension layer = at least Low 1-A, which is a big leap in logic

Can a character still be able to create any configuration of space apart from the concept to which it is related

If i'm not wrong, what you trying to say is....a character can't create another space that somehow not depend or related to concept of space????. If that is then why a character can't create such space???

No, it is not possible, something like this does not exist in fiction. Author most of the time when they use the term, they just want to describe it as “all-mighty, Godlike, all powerful” that's it.

Yes it is possible, but again with enough contexts, and within the boundary said fiction show

 

[PrinceofPein]

okay unfollowing

 

[Darksmash]

It was still a poor attempt, as you failed to provide one fictional character who is "Omnipotent". This point would have been" acceptable" if there was even a single one.

We are talking about the framework of the tiering system here. It isn't built upon examples from fiction.

This is irrelevant, as the thread is clear about the context. Otherwise, you could have asked me to clarify in what sense I'm using the terms "concept of space", but you still decided to give your opinion.

Don't try to backtrack now. Your OP treats "concept of space"(even puts in quotation marks every time) as if it has a specific meaning in its own, even trying to put a baseline on it. And yes, I will give my opinion whenever I want based on the points you have presented in the thread.

Maybe because there was not "portion", but instead I was responding to your point that "the concept of space also encompasses real life."

I suggest you to read my previous posts on this matter.

Nice deflect. I don't see any argument so concession accepted.

 

[Furudo_Erika]

There are some, like this which use Apophatic Theology

And...what is that exactly?

 

[Kuuzo7]

Anyways, I disagree with CRT. We no longer give characters 1-A only because they transcend the concept of space.

" We no longer give characters 1-A only because they transcend the concept of space." Still does not mean such a character would not be above any dimension regardless.

Heck, at max concept manipulation lol

Creation = / = Manipulation
You aware that they are characters who can manipulate, for exemple, fire without them being the cause/source of it.

 

[Vietthai96]

And...what is that exactly?

You can.....google about this. It is a theology about "God" is beyond all description, you can't actually describe "God", all attempt to describe "God" resulting in something entire different, unrelated, that the general gist of it, still it need to be evaluated case-by-case depend on verse

 

[ImmortalDread]

Yes it is possible, but again with enough contexts, and within the boundary said fiction show

No, otherwise everyone with omnipotence reached boundless automatically, heck even boundless is not enough for a truly omnipotent being. Because everything he can't do, it is contradiction.

I don't get why people think omnipotence exists in fiction, if you are truly omnipotent, nothing is impossible for you. The concept is alone illogical and till now psychologist can't comprehend it. People can't even now understand how God function, yet we know that God is omnipotent. How can fiction describe such one?

Omnipotent MC will be most boring since everything is for him perfect. It is literal definition of “perfection”, he has everything. There are no improvement, no character development. Nothing.

Authors who use “omnipotent” keyword always tend to mean “he can do anything”. That's it.

" We no longer give characters 1-A only because they transcend the concept of space." Still does not mean such a character would not be above any dimension regardless.

The whole thread point is that you want to give Lucifer 1-A for that, lol.

Creation = / = Manipulation
You aware that they are create who can manipulate, for exemple, fire without them being the cause of it.

Creation is a part of manipulation, silly, destroy/create/change is manipulation. Damn.

 

[Kuuzo7]

Uh oh, i distorted what???

See my previous post

And, you still assuming that lacking any dimensionality before the creation of the concept of space mean when a character create the concept of space, said cosmology instantly = uncountable infinite amount of dimension layer

"uncountable infinite amount of dimension layer " This is also wrong, the dimensionality of an object is defined by natural numbers, e.g 1-D, 2-D, 3-D, etc.

= at least Low 1-A, which is a big leap in logic

Conclusion that lead to an non sequitir, as only the character would have been able to reach this tier, not the cosmology.

If that is then why a character can't create such space???

For the same reason I gave you in my second exemple, which you did not respond:

Put in another context:
Does this sentence can still convey the message you wanted to transmit if we deprive each word of its meaning. Don't tap dance arount the question, stay consistent with your framework.

 

[Kuuzo7]

The whole thread point is that you want to give Lucifer 1-A for that, lol.

Lucifer is not even able to create anything "Ex nihilo", he shapes things LOL. Wrong character.

Creation is a part of manipulation, silly, destroy/create/change is manipulation. Damn.

Yes, but this is not true in both ways. That's the point.
And something has to be created first before it can manipulated. Using my exemple again, a character would not be able to manipulate fire if it's does not even exist. That's silly.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Yes, but this is not true in both ways. That's the point.
And something has to be created first before it can manipulated. Using my exemple again, a character would not be able to manipulate fire if it's does not even exist. That's silly.

You can manipulate non-existent fire. I don't see an issue.

 

[Kuuzo7]

We are talking about the framework of the tiering system here. It isn't built upon examples from fiction.

This statement is false, "the framework of the ranking system" is in fact "built on examples of fiction." Otherwise, what would be the point of developing a tiering system and tiering fictional characters accordingly? It does not add up.

Don't try to backtrack now.

LOL, as if it would happen one day.

Your OP treats "concept of space"(even puts in quotation marks every time) as if it has a specific meaning in its own

That's clearly not what quotation marks stands for LOL. Maybe you should actually also do your own research on it.

even trying to put a baseline on it.

I don't see the issue.

And yes, I will give my opinion whenever I want based on the points you have presented in the thread.

Then don"t say nothing regarding the context of the terms "concept of space" as it was already given in this thread.

Nice deflect. I don't see any argument so concession accepted.

Say the one who made claim that Omnipotence is a thing in fiction.
The burden of proof is on your side.
Try harder.

 

[Darksmash]

This statement is false, "the framework of the ranking system" is in fact "built on examples of fiction." Otherwise, what would be the point of developing a tiering system and tiering fictional characters accordingly? It does not add up.

It does add up yes. We are ranking fictional characters in a neutral tiering system. We aren't structuring a tiering system out of fictional characters.

That's clearly not what quotation marks stands for LOL. Maybe you should actually also do your own research on it.

????
"Do your own research because I don't have any arguments"

Then don"t say nothing regarding the context of the terms "concept of space" as it was already given in this thread.

Jfc

Say the one who made claim that Omnipotence is a thing in fiction.
The burden of proof is on your side.
Try harder.

You made the claim that the concept of space is a thing in fiction, the burden of proof is on you.

Maybe it's time to stop making pathetic deflects in the name of "arguments"?

 

[Furudo_Erika]

You can.....google about this. It is a theology about "God" is beyond all description, you can't actually describe "God", all attempt to describe "God" resulting in something entire different, unrelated, that the general gist of it, still it need to be evaluated case-by-case depend on verse

I seen many other verses that described God like that, but they are still only 2-A or Low 1-C typically.

Explain why exactly it is 1-A in THIS specific verse. "Being beyond description" isn't enough, as that could just be a single tier higher.

 

[DontTalkDT]

I mean, in the LITERAL FAQ page, it states that 1-A can be reached by this without infinite dimensions:

"A good way to accomplish this would be to show that whatever state of being in which they exist is completely independent of the number of layers/dimensions present on the setting. For example, if they are unaffected by dimensions being arbitrarily added or removed from physical space by virtue of transcending it entirely, or if they exist as a "background" or canvas of sorts in which any amount of them can be inserted. This argument generalizes to tiers higher than 1-A as well."

Basically: If they exist independently from any number of dimensions present, it would be 1-A. If the literal concept of physical space is erased, but they can still "physically" exist without the concept of physical space, it is 1-A. Because they don't rely on any dimensions to exist, as they exist above the concept of them.

Now this isn't ME saying this, it is the own wiki's qualifications. So if this doesn't qualify...then sorry to say: "******* change it".

Just to make a clarification unto that (haven't read the whole thread).

Note how it doesn't just say "exists independently", but also something about that being by transcending physical space entirely, regardless of how many dimensions would come into play. And that requires evidence.

We hence talk about beings that have statements such as: "No matter how many dimensions you add, I would still be transcendent of it".

It's easy to see how such an argument leads to at least transcending infinite dimensions.