Yin Tian Shen Yin Series | Fixes & Additions | Layers

ActuallySpaceMan42 · Saturday at 04:33

Introduction

So most of what's going to be covered here is not really adding anything new to the verse, more so changing things that have been rendered outdated, and giving context ot things that are already present on the Cosmology Page, including layers and stuff.

Paths Fixes & Changes

Everything listed here will be added to this page, which is for Verse-specific Powers and Abilities. | Here is a blog that shows what everything will look like if it's accepted and applied.

To the awe of all things born thereafter, they were 'Fate' and 'Time.' Existing before the world's birth, suspended above all creation, they were the most ancient and ineffable concepts.

It's on the Cosmology Page that the Concepts of Fate & Time predate and transcend the world, so all instances will gain Conceptual Manipulation Type 1.

"If I didn't completely dominate the hub before the Source World expelled me and thisgrotto-heaven into the Void Realm, the only outcome would be death, and my existence wouldbe erased."

Any path capable of travelling in the Void will gain resistance to Existence Erasure, for the above scan.

Information Manipulation (Type 1; Souls are a spiritual energy-based aggregation of all thoughts and information within an intelligent being)
- This will be changed to Information Type 2, since Information in-verse is Type 2, and Spiritual Energy can be etched with it.
[Lifeforce Abilities]
- It's been stated that all living creatures have Lifeforce, even formless and nonexistent ones, so this has been a long time coming.

Void Manipulation (Path Unifiers are capable of leaving a mark upon the Void, creating a quadrant that forbids all life if left unchecked. This phenomenon, known as a Third-Tier Void Vacuum, is capable of inflicting irreversible damage upon the multiverse, demolishing the very "house" that holds the "table" upon which the "cup" representing the universe rests)

Cosmic Awareness & Power Mimicry (Cosmic Wills are souls born from the collective consciousness of all living beings within a universe—a spirit so vast that it encompasses the entire cosmos and possesses knowledge of all things under heaven. Any technique, divine power, cultivation system, or even the schemes and wisdom of mortals occurring within its universe can naturally be comprehended by the Cosmic Will and transformed into its own strength)
- This will be changed to Nigh-Omniscience, because that's clearly what it is.
  - Profiles linked to this will also gain Nigh-Omnicience within the Universe.

Forces Fixes & Changes

Everything listed here will be added to this page, which is for Verse-specific Powers and Abilities. | Here is a blog that shows what everything will look like if it's accepted and applied.

To the awe of all things born thereafter, they were 'Fate' and 'Time.' Existing before the world's birth, suspended above all creation, they were the most ancient and ineffable concepts.

It's on the Cosmology Page that the Concepts of Fate & Time predate and transcend the world, so all instances will gain Conceptual Manipulation Type 1.

General Profile Fixes & Changes

Seeing that Path Unifiers can all perform the Tier 3 Void Feat, all profiles of them should scale to Path Unifiers in Joshua's Multiverse in terms of Durability.
- High Outerverse level (Ultimate Legendary-Tier Beings can engage in battles that permanently scar the Void, rendering it inhospitable to all life, including Advanced Legendary Beings)
  - Which scales above: High Outerverse level (Advanced Legendary-Tier Beings have been stated to be able to survive even after the Initial Flame has died off, and the Multiverse itself has perished)

"If I didn't completely dominate the hub before the Source World expelled me and thisgrotto-heaven into the Void Realm, the only outcome would be death, and my existence wouldbe erased."

Any profile capable of surviving or moving in the Void will gain resistance to Existence Erasure, for the above scan.

In the void, the concept of distance did not exist. The higher one's energy level, the more nodes one could traverse in an instant, allowing them to cross more worlds swiftly and reach their desired coordinates.

The Void doesn't have a concept of distance, and is a High 1-A Structure, so anyone capable of affecting or traveling to other worlds through the Void will gain High 1-A Range.

Any profile with [Information Modification - Observer Abilities] will gain Low 1-A AP via/with it.
- Information Modification at this level is done through modifying the River of Existence, which is the Information of a World. The River of Existence is rated as Low 1-A within the Cosmology Page.

Layers

Everything listed and discussed here is already on the Cosmology Page.

Existence and void, infinity and the individual. If concepts in this world have two poles, then these lie at opposite ends of the spectrum,with all life suspended between them. Whether seeking to comprehend the essence of existence or the truth of nothingness, whether grasping the vastness of infinity or the purity of individuality-all are infinitely distant to life.

And then, a rumbling sound echoed through the void, as if some invisible force was operating in the depths of nothingness. In the depths of the darkness, layers upon layers of light ignited, transforming into massive gears that interlocked and rotated in the abyss of the void, resembling one Reincarnation nested within another. Each turn of a gear would drive the rotation of countless others, and this interconnected cycle of Reincarnation was the embodiment of causality.

Reversing the yin and yang of time and space, the eternal cycle of reincarnation without end, neither born nor destroyed, neither tainted nor pure, neither increasing nor decreasing

But just as the relativity, comparison, and Reincarnation of 'being' and 'nothingness' form the first Taiji.

All concepts exist along an infinite spectrum, with opposing concepts situated at opposite poles. Reincarnation—the perpetual cycling of these concepts and dualities—is described as being nested within itself across countless layers, collectively forming the structure of causality.
- This will mostly affect those with Paraconsistent Physiology based on concepts. They'll just have Infinite States of Type 3. Aside from that, this doesn't really change anything tier-wise, but instances of Conceptual Manipulation in-verse will have an Infinitely Greater Modifier.

"Life's death, death's silence, silence's void, void's nothingness... the end of all things, the termination of all beings!" Clearly in no mood for lengthy explanations, Yalla responded directly and solemnly: "Termination!"

Existence and void, infinity and the individual. If concepts in this world have two poles, then these lie at opposite ends of the spectrum,with all life suspended between them. Whether seeking to comprehend the essence of existence or the truth of nothingness, whether grasping the vastness of infinity or the purity of individuality-all are infinitely distant to life.

From the perspective of the Torrent, beyond the multiverse lay nothingness. This nothingness was not the vacuum or void contained within universes and multiversal entities but a relative category. It was akin to the state of meditation, where delusions are severed, the mind subdued, and fundamental tranquility attained. To the 'mind,' nothingness is a form of 'non-existence.' Yet, compared to true and utter 'non-existence,' 'nothingness' is a form of 'existence.' A simpler analogy: a blank sheet of paper is 'empty' compared to a book, but it is 'something' compared to absolute nothingness. The Pan-Infinite Multiversal Derivation Axis was such a sheet of paper, suspended between nothingness and existence. The Sealed Multiverse, by contrast, was the 'existence' in this relative framework.

Fairly straightforward, Termination represents the end of all things, with there are always deeper levels of nothingness. All existence is suspended between True Existence and True Nothingness. Just as a blank page may seem empty when compared to a book, it is still something when contrasted with absolute nothingness. True Nothingness exists beyond comparison, even regarding the 'nothingness' you think about.

"Twilight originates from pure 'negation' and 'nothingness'... Its meaning is to make everything 'meaningless'."

Yet this tremor was different from that of the so-called 'Termination.' It was like daylight abruptly dimming, night about to fall-an ambiguous division of all things, yet not all-encompassing, merely heralding the twilight of all ends. He communicated with no one, responded to no summons. He acted not at all, even denying His own existence.

"The birth and existence of all living beings are devoid of meaning. Whether freezing time, reversing its flow, or forging an eternal and immortal civilization, all are destined to succumb to Chaos. They may decay, crumble, collapse, or be shattered by mightier forces, until at the end of all ends, even Termination cannot describe the abyss of Void-these are but phantasmal bubbles."

This True Nothingness is known as Twilight and is pure negation, the twilight of all endings, and the denial of even itself. Even Termination, which, as discussed, gives rise to the recursion of voids described above, cannot describe the abyss that is Twilight.
- Termination will naturally scale to the infinitely layered NEP. Twilight will scale beyond Termination. And above both will be the Great Existences, whose Existence Erasure surpasses Twilight as listed below.
  - Existence Erasure (Great Existences are capable of causing dead and destroyed universes to have never existed at all, reducing them to mere whispers in a dream—unnoticed and unremembered, simply vanished as if they had never been. With a mere thought, everything can dissipate into nothingness, and it is even more thorough than that, illusions that cannot be comprehended or encompassed by the void)

I've decided to drop this argument since the evidence wasn't good enough.

God_of_perversion · Saturday at 06:48

ActuallySpaceMan42 said:
[Lifeforce Abilities]

It's been stated that all living creatures have Lifeforce, even formless and nonexistent ones, so this has been a long time coming.

I'm not sure if giving it to every being is a good idea since they are not manipulating it

ActuallySpaceMan42 said:
Seeing that Path Unifiers can all perform the Tier 3 Void Feat, all profiles of them should scale to Path Unifiers in Joshua's Multiverse in terms of Durability.

High Outerverse level (Ultimate Legendary-Tier Beings can engage in battles that permanently scar the Void, rendering it inhospitable to all life, including Advanced Legendary Beings)

Which scales above: High Outerverse level (Advanced Legendary-Tier Beings have been stated to be able to survive even after the Initial Flame has died off, and the Multiverse itself has perished)

Honestly i don't understand how characters canl have multiverse level AP but H1A durability, but if the mods agreed with this then so be it

ActuallySpaceMan42 said:
Any profile with [Information Modification - Observer Abilities] will gain Low 1-A AP via/with it.

Information Modification at this level is done through modifying the River of Existence, which is the Information of a World. The River of Existence is rated as Low 1-A within the Cosmology Page.

I don't know if that counts as AP since those are haxs, unless of course the observer abilities can be used as physical attacks. This is 100% a L1a range feat tho.

ActuallySpaceMan42 said:
Layers

Everything listed and discussed here is already on the Cosmology Page.

I agree with infinite layers of NEP but i'm Neutral on the logic manipulation and PP3 since i don't have much knowledge about these abilities

Edit: I obviously agree with everything i didn't comment on

ActuallySpaceMan42 · Saturday at 06:58

God_of_perversion said:
I'm not sure if giving it to every being is a good idea since they are not manipulating it

Well, it's described as the power all life in the verse uses to change and create things, so everyone sort of passively uses it.

God_of_perversion said:
Honestly i don't understand how characters canl have multiverse level AP but H1A durability, but if the mods agreed with this then so be it

Everyone in the verse is smurfed out the wazoo.

Lifeforce is the perfect example; it's the ability life uses to change the world, but it was created and granted by a High 1-A Entity.

The verse is littered with that kind of stuff; even the ability to make tools from copper is due to some High 1-A Force.

God_of_perversion said:
I don't know if that counts as AP since those are haxs, unless of course the observer abilities can be used as physical attacks. This is 100% a L1a range feat tho.

I plan to elaborate on it in the AP section, but it can be used to destroy reality and that kind of thing.

God_of_perversion · Saturday at 07:02

ActuallySpaceMan42 said:
Well, it's described as the power all life in the verse uses to change and create things, so everyone sort of passively uses it.

Agree with the addition then

ActuallySpaceMan42 said:
Everyone in the verse is smurfed out the wazoo.

Lifeforce is the perfect example; it's the ability life uses to change the world, but it was created and granted by a High 1-A Entity.

The verse is littered with that kind of stuff; even the ability to make tools from copper is due to some High 1-A Force.

How do the fights even work if they got H1A dura

ActuallySpaceMan42 said:
I plan to elaborate on it in the AP section, but it can be used to destroy reality and that kind of thing.

Agree with L1a AP then

ActuallySpaceMan42 · Saturday at 07:05

God_of_perversion said:
How do the fights even work if they got H1A dura

Mostly because you've got City Level Characters, with passive effects like this;

Durability Negation (Overlords can unleash attacks that cannot be measures in conventional measures such as tons of force, as their spiritual power operates on a level that transcends the destructive capacity of physical matter)

It's all just a bunch of smurfs hitting each other.

Rakih_Elyan · Saturday at 07:16

Agree with everything. Good job @ActuallySpaceMan42

Hecky2222 · Saturday at 07:18

Did @SuperNova55555 help this time btw

Hecky2222 · Saturday at 07:31

ActuallySpaceMan42 said:
Everyone in the verse is smurfed out the wazoo.

Lifeforce is the perfect example; it's the ability life uses to change the world, but it was created and granted by a High 1-A Entity.

The verse is littered with that kind of stuff; even the ability to make tools from copper is due to some High 1-A Force.

That's hax not durability. It would be like H1A Invulnerability or smth like it though and won't go to Durability section(rather P/A?).

ActuallySpaceMan42 said:
All concepts exist along an infinite spectrum, with opposing concepts situated at opposite poles. Reincarnation—the perpetual cycling of these concepts and dualities—is described as being nested within itself across countless layers, collectively forming the structure of causality.

This will mostly affect those with Paraconsistent Physiology based on concepts. They'll just have Infinite States of Type 3. Aside from that, this doesn't really change anything tier-wise, but instances of Conceptual Manipulation will be infinitely layered.

PP3 States makes sense, maybe AE would be greater. But I don't get logic behind why Conceptual Manipulation itself should be layered when in your text itself they are not bypassing resistances but just being stated infinite layered. So Conceptual Manipulation iffy to me here

ActuallySpaceMan42 said:
It's directly stated that there are infinite perceptions, logics, and right answers to the same truths, and balance makes them all simultaneously correct.

I dont see what is supposed to be layer here.

ActuallySpaceMan42 said:
This True Nothingness is known as Twilight and is pure negation, the twilight of all endings, and the denial of even itself. Even Termination, which, as discussed, gives rise to the recursion of voids described above, cannot describe the abyss that is Twilight.

Termination will naturally scale to the infinitely layered NEP. Twilight will scale beyond Termination. And above both will be the Great Existences, whose Existence Erasure surpasses Twilight as listed below.

I suppose NEP Infinite Layers fine. But it would be Void Manipulation? Cuz they are reducing existence to nothingness(I mean if they are erasing nonexistence it should be Nonexistence Erasure)

ActuallySpaceMan42 · Saturday at 07:52

Hecky2222 said:
That's hax not durability. It would be like H1A Invulnerability or smth like it though and won't go to Durability section(rather P/A?).

Lifeforce doesn't give them their durability; their durability comes from the natural increase in their durability alongside their hax.

Hecky2222 said:
I dont see what is supposed to be layer here.

I used the word layering incorrectly here.

What I meant is that Balance & Logic Manipulation will affect infinite logical states, and resisting them would scale.

For PP, we treat more logical states as superior, so I don't know if affecting more logical states with Logic Manipulation also counts as superior Logic Manipulation.

Hecky2222 said:
I suppose NEP Infinite Layers fine. But it would be Void Manipulation? Cuz they are reducing existence to nothingness(I mean if they are erasing nonexistence it should be Nonexistence Erasure)

Oh yeah, I guess so.

Hecky2222 · Saturday at 08:10

ActuallySpaceMan42 said:
Lifeforce doesn't give them their durability; their durability comes from the natural increase in their durability alongside their hax.

I know, my problem is just wording. If their physicals just emulation while they are not BDE 3 it would be obviously emulation. Cuz we had literally thread about "3-D can't have 1-A stats" to disallow these situations. I just disagree putting it to durability section. Imo wording like "Whatever durability, but can tank qualitative attacks with ability? " would be better. Like how Monika had something like this

Universe level+ with her powers (Through her powers, she has complete control on a Kernel level over the game world of "Doki Doki Literature Club!", which is a universe meant to mimic the one of her creators with also its own flow of time.Can modify,destroy and re-create her reality over and over, and was ultimately able to completely erase the game world through deleting all of its files, can ignore conventional durability with her abilities

This would fix problem imo, we are not saying they can't tank H1A punches, we are just saying they don't have H1A physicals in 3-D reality. It is just hax. I am telling it because some people would use these examples as "Yes 3-D can have 1-A physical" while ignoring FAQ completely.

ActuallySpaceMan42 said:
I used the word layering incorrectly here.

What I meant is that Balance & Logic Manipulation will affect infinite logical states, and resisting them would scale.

For PP, we treat more logical states as superior, so I don't know if affecting more logical states with Logic Manipulation also counts as superior Logic Manipulation.

I know, I noticed it for concept too. But to my knowledge we give layers for bypassing resistance. Which is not happening here. It iss simply superior to normal level. Like maybe Greater as wording would work. But generally this should be better than layering cuz everyone who knows hax would realize resisting infinite layered mind manipulation that works on single person isnt superior to mind manipulation that can work on infinite people.

ActuallySpaceMan42 said:
Oh yeah, I guess so.

There should be question of if they erase NEP too. From my reading this is how you are getting NEP layers, but idk if justification of scans relate to it. But if yes I guess Void Manipulation, Nonexistence Erasure at same time for reducing existence and nonexistence at same time

ActuallySpaceMan42 · Saturday at 08:20

Hecky2222 said:
I know, my problem is just wording. If their physicals just emulation while they are not BDE 3 it would be obviously emulation. Cuz we had literally thread about "3-D can't have 1-A stats" to disallow these situations. I just disagree putting it to durability section. Imo wording like "Whatever durability, but can tank qualitative attacks with ability? " would be better. Like how Monika had something like this

Universe level+ with her powers (Through her powers, she has complete control on a Kernel level over the game world of "Doki Doki Literature Club!", which is a universe meant to mimic the one of her creators with also its own flow of time.Can modify,destroy and re-create her reality over and over, and was ultimately able to completely erase the game world through deleting all of its files, can ignore conventional durability with her abilities

This would fix problem imo, we are not saying they can't tank H1A punches, we are just saying they don't have H1A physicals in 3-D reality. It is just hax. I am telling it because some people would use these examples as "Yes 3-D can have 1-A physical" while ignoring FAQ completely.

I see what you mean, so some kind of specification that their abilities are allowing them to emulate having High 1-A Physicals, while still having their normal durability listed beside that?

Hecky2222 said:
I know, I noticed it for concept too. But to my knowledge we give layers for bypassing resistance. Which is not happening here. It iss simply superior to normal level. Like maybe Greater as wording would work. But generally this should be better than layering cuz everyone who knows hax would realize resisting infinite layered mind manipulation that works on single person isnt superior to mind manipulation that can work on infinite people

I see, I'll reword it a bit then.

Hecky2222 said:
.There should be question of if they erase NEP too. From my reading this is how you are getting NEP layers, but idk if justification of scans relate to it. But if yes I guess Void Manipulation, Nonexistence Erasure at same time for reducing existence and nonexistence at same time

Well, they have the NPI for it, but for this case in particular, I think it's just EE. They're saying they can erase something so completely that it's beyond the NEP Layers. But I don't think they're erasing NEP itself.

Hecky2222 · Saturday at 08:34

ActuallySpaceMan42 said:
I see what you mean, so some kind of specification that their abilities are allowing them to emulate having High 1-A Physicals, while still having their normal durability listed beside that?

Yep

ActuallySpaceMan42 said:
I see, I'll reword it a bit then.

ok

ActuallySpaceMan42 said:
Well, they have the NPI for it, but for this case in particular, I think it's just EE. They're saying they can erase something so completely that it's beyond the NEP Layers. But I don't think they're erasing NEP itself

I guess Void Manipulation fine then

YueNoMoral · Saturday at 16:12

Agree. By the way, considering this thread involves Logic, should Su Zhou's Heavenly Emperor Key got resistance to Logic Manipulation alongside its Concept Manipulation Type 1? As he's unaffected by [Balance] attacks. Maybe this can be added to the proposal too.

Conceptual Manipulation (Type 1; Su Zhou is unfixed and immeasurable—his fate is erratic, rendering him beyond conventional judgment or definition. This makes abilities such as [Constant Judgement Heart], which rely on [Balance]—the duality of “is and is not,” “can and cannot,” “yes and no”—ineffective against him. This ability destroys its targets through the force of imbalance, but Su Zhou's nature makes him unsubjected)
[*]

ActuallySpaceMan42 · Saturday at 16:15

@Planck69 @DarkDragonMedeus @Celestial_Pegasus @Oblivion_Of_The_Endless @Elizhaa @Theglassman12

Do any of you mind looking at this

ActuallySpaceMan42 · Saturday at 16:15

YueNoMoral said:
Agree. By the way, considering this thread involves Logic, should Su Zhou's Heavenly Emperor Key got resistance to Logic Manipulation alongside its Concept Manipulation Type 1? As he's unaffected by [Balance] attacks.

Conceptual Manipulation (Type 1; Su Zhou is unfixed and immeasurable—his fate is erratic, rendering him beyond conventional judgment or definition. This makes abilities such as [Constant Judgement Heart], which rely on [Balance]—the duality of “is and is not,” “can and cannot,” “yes and no”—ineffective against him. This ability destroys its targets through the force of imbalance, but Su Zhou's nature makes him unsubjected)
[*]

He should already have it, I just forgot.

YueNoMoral · Saturday at 16:16

ActuallySpaceMan42 said:
He should already have it, I just forgot.

I see. You can put it on the proposal too and makes Su Zhou more stronger on that key, lol.

ActuallySpaceMan42 · Saturday at 16:17

YueNoMoral said:
I see. You can put it on the proposal too and makes Su Zhou more stronger on that key, lol.

It's already on the proposal under Infinite Logic; everyone manipulating or resisting Balance will gain Resistance to Logic.

Apotheosis69 · Saturday at 20:32

Instead of Beyond Infinite Logical States, since its outside of logic of its entirety, wouldn't it be "All Logical States"? As it isn't about the cardinality of truth values but the entire Order system governing it?

And seeing as "All are Correct", that violates the Law of Noncontradiction Entirely, leading to Trivialism which ofc regards ALL statements as true. No matter how much contradictions or paradoxes it conforms.

Plus that is Wayyy more OP

ExcelsisBerny · Saturday at 20:50

I disagree with some stuff here. I'm gonna elaborate later.

ActuallySpaceMan42 · Saturday at 21:56

Apotheosis69 said:
Instead of Beyond Infinite Logical States, since its outside of logic of its entirety, wouldn't it be "All Logical States"? As it isn't about the cardinality of truth values but the entire Order system governing it?

And seeing as "All are Correct", that violates the Law of Noncontradiction Entirely, leading to Trivialism which ofc regards ALL statements as true. No matter how much contradictions or paradoxes it conforms.

Plus that is Wayyy more OP

That is a much better way of phrasing it, thanks.

BoastJr · Sunday at 02:45

Anos has gifted this verse with infinite layered NEP

What a nice guy

ExcelsisBerny · Sunday at 03:11

Anyway, as I said above, I have some issues with the thread, so I’ll go point by point.

Infinite Layered Concepts

Honestly, this part is very confusing, and I think the main problem here does not lie with the OP, but rather with the novel’s cryptic and unclear narration.

The OP says, and I quote:

ActuallySpaceMan42 said:
All concepts exist along an infinite spectrum, with opposing concepts situated at opposite poles.

What the novel’s dialogue states is that, if a concept has two poles or extremes, then all life is defined by the spectrum formed between that dichotomy.

If concepts in this world have two poles, then these lie at opposite ends of the spectrum,with all life suspended between them.

Taking the same example the novel gives you, between 'existence' and 'void' there is an indeterminate number of states in which a being can exist, so it is possible to trace a spectrum of ideas that can be expressed between those two extremes.

And obviously, by tracing everything that separates that dichotomy, it becomes possible to define any kind of existence using one of those ideas, just as you can define any being from that novel through all the states that exist between 'existence' and 'void', including both extremes.

Existence and void

Although, obviously, this is not something that can be applied to 'all' concepts, as OP claims. Not only because there are concepts that, on a semantic level, do not have a spectrum between one opposite and another, but also because the novel itself uses 'if,' which is a conditional that precisely expresses that having a spectrum only applies if a concept meets the condition of having two poles or extremes.

Regardless, even if we take the idea of a spectrum, this still does not grant any layers. It would be equivalent to saying that the concept of 'number' has infinite layers simply because you can trace infinite conceptual steps between the ideas of 'zero' and 'infinity,' which makes no sense.

A metaphysical universal, which I imagine is what the work is using, already encompasses all possible particulars of an idea, and we do not grant infinite layers of Type 1 conceptual manipulation just because someone can manipulate them either.

Following OP’s argument, I quote:

ActuallySpaceMan42 said:
Reincarnation—the perpetual cycling of these concepts and dualities—is described as being nested within itself across countless layers, collectively forming the structure of causality.

Honestly, this part is even more confusing, because the excerpts that talk about 'Reincarnation' do not even remotely allude to what we on the wiki define as a 'layer' for a hax.

Layering is the ability to break through resistances to one's ability/hax. Successfully using an ability against a resistant character means that the ability is "layered." Further, resisting a layered ability is an indication of layered resistance, so on and so forth. An ability becoming stronger does not automatically mean it is layered unless it is shown to overcome a resistance. Crucially this is not the same as resistance negation, which overcomes resistance via a special additional ability rather than the hax itself being more powerful.

It only describes how the process of causality can be conceptualized as gears that, by moving, move others in turn, and so on, like a massive chain effect. The 'layers' of light are precisely those 'gears' that participate in processes literally nested within larger processes.

And then, a rumbling sound echoed through the void, as if some invisible force was operating in the depths of nothingness. In the depths of the darkness, layers upon layers of light ignited, transforming into massive gears that interlocked and rotated in the abyss of the void, resembling one Reincarnation nested within another. Each turn of a gear would drive the rotation of countless others, and this interconnected cycle of Reincarnation was the embodiment of causality.

I do not think this has anything to do with the sheer ontological complexity of the concepts in the verse.

Infinite Layered Logic

The OP says, and I quote:

ActuallySpaceMan42 said:
It's directly stated that there are infinite perceptions, logics, and right answers to the same truths, and balance makes them all simultaneously correct.

This will make Logic Manipulation in-verse, affect infinite logic states, and make resistances to Balance & Logic also operate on infinite logic states. Transcenders who have PP for transcending all logic, and the opposite of logic, will be Beyond All Logical States.

This gives me Catbox vibes. I am just going to say that, if this passes, then I am going to steal the wank.

Jokes aside, I do not see how this statement proves infinite logical states. It is obvious that 'logics' in this case is being used colloquially to express 'X processes' (the internal way something operates, develops, or makes sense according to its own principles), not some system like classical logic. In fact, the text itself directly tells you that irreconcilable beings and ideologies can understand each other through Balance.

It allows mutually incompatible perceptions, logics, and existences to all remain correct, while providing the common ground through which irreconcilable beings and ideologies can understand one another.

Balance being able to make all perceptions and existences remain correct is good level logic manipulation. In other words, it breaks the law of non contradiction, but not much beyond that.

I do not understand Apotheosis’ comment about 'all logical states' either. I am pretty sure that is not how it works.

ActuallySpaceMan42 · Sunday at 04:20

ExcelsisBerny said:
What the novel’s dialogue states is that, if a concept has two poles or extremes, then all life is defined by the spectrum formed between that dichotomy.

Taking the same example the novel gives you, between 'existence' and 'void' there is an indeterminate number of states in which a being can exist, so it is possible to trace a spectrum of ideas that can be expressed between those two extremes.

And obviously, by tracing everything that separates that dichotomy, it becomes possible to define any kind of existence using one of those ideas, just as you can define any being from that novel through all the states that exist between 'existence' and 'void', including both extremes.

Although, obviously, this is not something that can be applied to 'all' concepts, as OP claims. Not only because there are concepts that, on a semantic level, do not have a spectrum between one opposite and another, but also because the novel itself uses 'if,' which is a conditional that precisely expresses that having a spectrum only applies if a concept meets the condition of having two poles or extremes.

Regardless, even if we take the idea of a spectrum, this still does not grant any layers. It would be equivalent to saying that the concept of 'number' has infinite layers simply because you can trace infinite conceptual steps between the ideas of 'zero' and 'infinity,' which makes no sense.

A metaphysical universal, which I imagine is what the work is using, already encompasses all possible particulars of an idea, and we do not grant infinite layers of Type 1 conceptual manipulation just because someone can manipulate them either.

I used the word layers incorrectly and changed it to simply being Greater Conceptual Manipulation.

But I will state that all concepts in the verse do indeed exist as two poles/extremes.

Indeed, there was not even a clear boundary between existence and nothingness. Thus, fire was born from nothingness, its light illuminating the Void and separating all things and concepts so that, for the first time, life and death, darkness and light were sundered.

This should be taken literally, as even Chaos, which is one of the most ancient concepts, exists with the pole of Order.

Chaos was neither evil nor hostile. It did not represent destruction or end, but was coal for the Flame, the most primitive form of all things and the most ancient of concepts.

Chaos and Order are akin to two opposing poles.

ExcelsisBerny said:
Honestly, this part is even more confusing, because the excerpts that talk about 'Reincarnation' do not even remotely allude to what we on the wiki define as a 'layer' for a hax.

It only describes how the process of causality can be conceptualized as gears that, by moving, move others in turn, and so on, like a massive chain effect. The 'layers' of light are precisely those 'gears' that participate in processes literally nested within larger processes.

I do not think this has anything to do with the sheer ontological complexity of the concepts in the verse.

I agree, I used layers incorrectly, apologies for that.

ExcelsisBerny said:
Infinite Layered Logic

The OP says, and I quote:

This gives me Catbox vibes. I am just going to say that, if this passes, then I am going to steal the wank.

Jokes aside, I do not see how this statement proves infinite logical states. It is obvious that 'logics' in this case is being used colloquially to express 'X processes' (the internal way something operates, develops, or makes sense according to its own principles), not some system like classical logic. In fact, the text itself directly tells you that irreconcilable beings and ideologies can understand each other through Balance.

Balance being able to make all perceptions and existences remain correct is good level logic manipulation. In other words, it breaks the law of non contradiction, but not much beyond that.

I'm a bit confused by what you mean by this, can you clarify?

RaikiKurohane99 · Sunday at 20:48

Everything except the Concept and Logic part makes sense to me, so I agree.

For the Concep part, I'm neutral. I'm not entirely sure if applying the analogy for something specific like existence and nonexistence to all general concepts is sufficient.

As for the Logic part, I would have to disagree.
I think perspective here is not referring to something as specific as different logical states but a more simple thing.

Take for example; "X is taller than me" is a fact for person A, but it can be completely false for Person B. That's called variation and different perspectives; even though they are different, they can exist mutually because each perspective is unique to each individual.

We may see red normally, colorblind people may not. That's also variation, not different logical systems.

ActuallySpaceMan42 · Sunday at 21:05

RaikiKurohane99 said:
As for the Logic part, I would have to disagree.
I think perspective here is not referring to something as specific as different logical states but a more simple thing.

Take for example; "X is taller than me" is a fact for person A, but it can be completely false for Person B. That's called variation and different perspectives; even though they are different, they can exist mutually because each perspective is unique to each individual.

We may see red normally, colorblind people may not. That's also variation, not different logical systems.

There was this scan that shows that Balance makes all dualistic statements simultaneously true and false, not just for all beings, but also for the cosmology.

As previously stated regarding the essence of Balance:

Are all things equal in rank and value? No, and yes.

Can all things truly be equated? They can, and they cannot.

This duality—the existence and absence, the possibility and impossibility—is the true essence of [Balance].

The same applied to the cosmos and All Living Beings.

RaikiKurohane99 · Sunday at 21:26

ActuallySpaceMan42 said:
There was this scan that shows that Balance makes all dualistic statements simultaneously true and false, not just for all beings, but also for the cosmology.

I think this would be a Non-Classical Logic System, to be specific a 3-valued one.

But I'm finding it hard to see an infinite valued one here.

ActuallySpaceMan42 · Sunday at 21:33

RaikiKurohane99 said:
I think this would be a Non-Classical Logic System, to be specific a 3-valued one.

But I'm finding it hard to see an infinite valued one here.

Alright then, I'll cut that out since there's not enough reason. Thanks for your input.

Yuuki701 · Monday at 06:51

"I have a follow-up question regarding the 'Transcender's Paraconsistent Physiology Type 3'. Is it still unable to reach infinity? (Sorry if this is a bit off-topic, I'm just curious.)"

God_of_perversion · Monday at 17:01

Yuuki701 said:
"I have a follow-up question regarding the 'Transcender's Paraconsistent Physiology Type 3'. Is it still unable to reach infinity? (Sorry if this is a bit off-topic, I'm just curious.)"

I wonder why there is no general discussion tread for the verse

BoastJr · Monday at 17:06

God_of_perversion said:
I wonder why there is no general discussion tread for the verse

Please understand there is nothing to talk about it outside powerscaling its H1A+ to H1A+ infinite layers

ActuallySpaceMan42 · Monday at 17:17

Yuuki701 said:
"I have a follow-up question regarding the 'Transcender's Paraconsistent Physiology Type 3'. Is it still unable to reach infinity? (Sorry if this is a bit off-topic, I'm just curious.)"

Depends on how the conceptual part of this CRT goes.

Rakih_Elyan · Tuesday at 06:36

BoastJr said:
Please understand there is nothing to talk about it outside powerscaling its H1A+ to H1A+ infinite layers

None of you actually read the novels lol, no one can discuss Ian scaling

Peterdenman156 · Tuesday at 17:49

Planck69 · Tuesday at 18:12

This seems largely fine, though I am neutral to infinitely nested concepts, since it seems a bit hard for me to grasp.

DarkDragonMedeus · Tuesday at 21:04

Looks good to me.

Rakih_Elyan · 2026-06-24T14:34:43+0100

Voidsaint5757 · 2026-06-24T22:19:29+0100

ActuallySpaceMan42 said:
Introduction
So most of what's going to be covered here is not really adding anything new to the verse, more so changing things that have been rendered outdated, and giving context ot things that are already present on the Cosmology Page, including layers and stuff.

Paths

Everything listed here will be added to this page, which is for Verse-specific Powers and Abilities. | Here is a blog that shows what everything will look like if it's accepted and applied.

It's on the Cosmology Page that the Concepts of Fate & Time predate and transcend the world, so all instances will gain Conceptual Manipulation Type 1.

Any path capable of travelling in the Void will gain resistance to Existence Erasure, for the above scan.

Information Manipulation (Type 1; Souls are a spiritual energy-based aggregation of all thoughts and information within an intelligent being)

This will be changed to Information Type 2, since Information in-verse is Type 2, and Spiritual Energy can be etched with it.

[Lifeforce Abilities]

It's been stated that all living creatures have Lifeforce, even formless and nonexistent ones, so this has been a long time coming.

Void Manipulationare capable of leaving a mark upon the Void, creating a quadrant that forbids all life if left unchecked. This phenomenon, known as a Third-Tier Void Vacuum, is capable of inflicting irreversible damage upon the multiverse, demolishing the very "house" that holds the "table" upon which the "cup" representing the universe rests)

Cosmic Awareness & Power Mimicry (Cosmic Wills are souls born from the collective consciousness of all living beings within a universe—a spirit so vast that it encompasses the entire cosmos and possesses knowledge of all things under heaven. Any technique, divine power, cultivation system, or even the schemes and wisdom of mortals occurring within its universe can naturally be comprehended by the Cosmic Will and transformed into its own strength)

This will be changed to Nigh-Omniscience, because that's clearly what it is.

Profiles linked to this will also gain Nigh-Omnicience within the Universe.

Forces Fixes & Changes

Everything listed here will be added to this page, which is for Verse-specific Powers and Abilities. | Here is a blog that shows what everything will look like if it's accepted and applied.

It's on the Cosmology Page that the Concepts of Fate & Time predate and transcend the world, so all instances will gain Conceptual Manipulation Type 1.

General Profile Fixes & Changes

Seeing that Path Unifiers can all perform the Tier 3 Void Feat, all profiles of them should scale to Path Unifiers in Joshua's Multiverse in terms of Durability.

High Outerverse level (Ultimate Legendary-Tier Beings can engage in battles that permanently scar the Void, rendering it inhospitable to all life, including Advanced Legendary Beings)

Which scales above: High Outerverse level (Advanced Legendary-Tier Beings have been stated to be able to survive even after the Initial Flame has died off, and the Multiverse itself has perished)

Any profile capable of surviving or moving in the Void will gain resistance to Existence Erasure, for the above scan.

The Void doesn't have a concept of distance, and is a High 1-A Structure, so anyone capable of affecting or traveling to other worlds through the Void will gain High 1-A Range.

Any profile with [Information Modification - Observer Abilities] will gain Low 1-A AP via/with it.

Information Modification at this level is done through modifying the River of Existence, which is the Information of a World. The River of Existence is rated as Low 1-A within the Cosmology Page.

Layers

Everything listed and discussed here is already on the Cosmology Page.

All concepts exist along an infinite spectrum, with opposing concepts situated at opposite poles. Reincarnation—the perpetual cycling of these concepts and dualities—is described as being nested within itself across countless layers, collectively forming the structure of causality.

This will mostly affect those with Paraconsistent Physiology based on concepts. They'll just have Infinite States of Type 3. Aside from that, this doesn't really change anything tier-wise, but instances of Conceptual Manipulation in-verse will have an Infinitely Greater Modifier.

Fairly straightforward, Termination represents the end of all things, with there are always deeper levels of nothingness. All existence is suspended between True Existence and True Nothingness. Just as a blank page may seem empty when compared to a book, it is still something when contrasted with absolute nothingness. True Nothingness exists beyond comparison, even regarding the 'nothingness' you think about.

This True Nothingness is known as Twilight and is pure negation, the twilight of all endings, and the denial of even itself. Even Termination, which, as discussed, gives rise to the recursion of voids described above, cannot describe the abyss that is Twilight.

Termination will naturally scale to the infinitely layered NEP. Twilight will scale beyond Termination. And above both will be the Great Existences, whose Existence Erasure surpasses Twilight as listed below.

Existence Erasure (Great Existences are capable of causing dead and destroyed universes to have never existed at all, reducing them to mere whispers in a dream—unnoticed and unremembered, simply vanished as if they had never been. With a mere thought, everything can dissipate into nothingness, and it is even more thorough than that, illusions that cannot be comprehended or encompassed by the void)

I've decided to drop this argument since the evidence wasn't good enough.

Does achieving Infinite Layered NEP superiority only make a character High 1-A, or High 1-A+?

Huesito88 · 2026-06-24T22:20:13+0100

Voidsaint5757 said:
Does achieving Infinite Layered NEP superiority only make a character High 1-A, or High 1-A+?

No and this isn't the the crt to ask such a question.

Apotheosis69 · 2026-06-24T22:24:35+0100

Voidsaint5757 said:
Does achieving Infinite Layered NEP superiority only make a character High 1-A, or High 1-A+?

No, it isn't depending on Tiering

Voidsaint5757 · 2026-06-24T22:24:41+0100

Huesito88 said:
No and this isn't the the crt to ask such a questi

Guide me if I'm wrong

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