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1-A = Auto Immeasurable Speed stuff

Duedate8898 said:
The same way a character can have FTL speeds without infinite AP. Just because something logically should be one way does not mean that it is that way when it comes to fiction.
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I fail to see how that's a good analogy. Your example is an actual physics law that is ignored by fictional medias

The example being questioned here is the wiki standards. By that logic we should also ignore a 1-A character being able to enter non-1-A realms because that's how fiction is.
ExcelsisBerny said:
If they are empowered by a 1-A entity, then that means their power operates on the same scale as a 1-A entity, which is completely irrelevant to what the staff member wrote. This response was completely unnecessary.
Click to expand...
I'm aware of that, I'm just saying that because I think that's what Duedate was referring to when talking about "non tier 1 characters damaging tier 1"
 
Mbpoops said:
… close ts.
Click to expand...
It depends on the outcome of the thread, if it's rejected then I'll close it but if it's accepted then I just have to apply what's in the OP. Staff were already tagged to check on the proposal (i.e whether physically 1-A characters are Immeasurable Speed by default or not).
 
Mbpoops said:
Is it a joke thread or not
Click to expand...
It's not a joke thread, most people taking it seriously meant that it's a serious thread. I hope you get the point here, plus if the profiles are actually wrong then we can't leave them to be wrong forever. That's all.
 
If you all are disagreeing that characters qualitatively above the speed formula dont get immeasurable speed then should we change those without feats to Unknown?
 
Duedate8898 said:
The same way a character can have FTL speeds without infinite AP. Just because something logically should be one way does not mean that it is that way when it comes to fiction.
Click to expand...
these two are not really comparable. we don't give infinite AP to FTL speed for the sake of consistency, if a 1A character is not Immeasurable by the default then he is not 1A
 
Mbpoops said:
If you all are disagreeing that characters qualitatively above the speed formula dont get immeasurable speed then should we change those without feats to Unknown?
Click to expand...
Yea but this is what we've done, Yumiella, etc are listed as Unknown because currently being physically 1-A ≠ Immeasurable Speed. This proposal is whether the Unknown speed ratings are changed to Immeasurable, or the Unknown speed ratings are staying.
 
Don't care about this matter all too much, but I will say that, as a change to sitewide standards, this belongs in the staff discussion thread
 
Mbpoops said:
Is it a joke thread or not
Click to expand...
It already became one the moment that LoM was mentioned.

lotm-general-who-wins-adam-visinonary-true-god-or-aizen-v0-vdv0hvi52agg1.jpg
 
Voidnether said:
Yea but this is what we've done, Yumiella, etc are listed as Unknown because currently being physically 1-A ≠ Immeasurable Speed. This proposal is whether the Unknown speed ratings are changed to Immeasurable, or the Unknown speed ratings are staying.
Click to expand...
Like i said in my previous messages, there could be other reasons.

Quoting birby “profiles can be wrong”
 
Mbpoops said:
Like i said in my previous messages, there could be other reasons.

Quoting birby “profiles can be wrong”
Click to expand...
Well this thread aims to fix it, that's all I'm saying unless there's actually important stuff going on since this is going to be a staff CRT.
 
I just moved it to Staff Discussion, as it's a policy change. I'm loathe to clog up Staff Discussion, but it seems necessary given how much debate is being had on it.
 
The fact that the only logical conclusion from what is written in the standards requires a staff thread is mind blowing to me. At this point, I wonder if the staff members, with the exception of the usual four/five users, actually know how the system itself works.
 
ExcelsisBerny said:
The fact that the only logical conclusion from what is written in the standards requires a staff thread is mind blowing to me. At this point, I wonder if the staff members, with the exception of the usual four/five users, actually know how the system itself works.
Click to expand...
Please stop replying after this, as this has been moved to staff discussion.
 
1A is defined by surpassing material composition as a whole. So if a character isn’t immeasurable, they wouldn’t really fit our standards since they’re still bound by time
 
Natsuki012 said:
1A is defined by surpassing material composition as a whole. So if a character isn’t immeasurable, they wouldn’t really fit our standards since they’re still bound by time
Click to expand...
I'm sorry, we're not supposed to have non-staff posting here now. I hate deleting people's posts, but I'm supposed to if they keep posting in a staff thread.
 
It's stated that Tier High 1-B and higher get Infinite Speed by default, but not Immeasurable.
Plus, it should be noted that whose physical bodies land at High 1-B and higher get Infinite Speed by default, as any non-negligible movement across an infinite number of dimensions entails moving an infinite distance.
Click to expand...
 
I'm not evaluating this.

I will threadban anyone posting without permission.

Joke threads are not just joke threads until they receive a formal response. Schrodinger's Joke Thread is intolerable and I would consider this motive worthy of a formal warning if only for intentionally wasting time.
 
ActuallySpaceMan42 said:
It's stated that Tier High 1-B and higher get Infinite Speed by default, but not Immeasurable.
Click to expand...
I'm fairly sure this a remnant from back when all of Tier 1, including 1-A and above, corresponded to extraordinarily big dimensional spaces (e.g. High 1-A was a space with an inaccessible cardinal worth of dimensions, or a set of things of such cardinality, and such). Nowadays since 1-A is by default transcendent over (in the sense of "superior to") distance and spacetime, auto-Immeasurable should be fine, unless someone's got separate objections to this?
 
Ultima_Reality said:
Nowadays since 1-A is by default transcendent over (in the sense of "superior to") distance and spacetime, auto-Immeasurable should be fine, unless someone's got separate objections to this?
Click to expand...
Based on how 1-A entities are currently treated, possessing a qualitative superiority over a lower reality doesn't mean the absence of higher-order forms of time or causality within their own framework.

If a lower reality is fundamentally incomparable to a 1-A being, including its space, time, and causality, then using that lower framework to justify automatic Immeasurable Speed does not seem consistent. The lower reality’s temporal system would already be irrelevant in comparison.

However, this does not prevent the 1-A entity from operating within its own higher-order temporal framework. The entity may still possess its own version of time and causality relative to its native level of existence, meaning movement can still occur at a “normal” pace from the perspective of that higher reality.

Because of that, I don't think 1-A entities should automatically qualify for Immeasurable Speed solely because of their qualitative superiority over lower-dimensional realities. Such a rating should require evidence that they transcend or move independently of their own relevant temporal framework, not merely a lower one.
 
Duedate8898 said:
As far as I'm aware, 1-A does not immediately mean a character has immeasurable speed. It's just that often times the justification for 1-A also gives proof for immeasurability.

For any number of reasons, one is how characters can have Tier 1 hax without being physically Tier 1. Sometimes characters are just able to damage other Tier 1 characters but aren't operating within the same space or range a Tier 1 being should be. Sometimes, fiction just doesn't follow the logic of Tier 1 beings having speed that is immeasurable.

Either way, Tier doesn't inherently correlate with other stats for all profiles.

I reject this CRT.

Edit: I specify Tier 1 mainly because the argument being provided for 1-a characters getting immeasurable here would be applied to most others in Tier 1
Click to expand...
I have to agree with this sentiment

However, given this is a tier 1 thread, I will have to rescind my participation from here on.
 
Ultima_Reality said:
I'm fairly sure this a remnant from back when all of Tier 1, including 1-A and above, corresponded to extraordinarily big dimensional spaces (e.g. High 1-A was a space with an inaccessible cardinal worth of dimensions, or a set of things of such cardinality, and such). Nowadays since 1-A is by default transcendent over (in the sense of "superior to") distance and spacetime, auto-Immeasurable should be fine, unless someone's got separate objections to this?
Click to expand...
Nevermind my last comment then this is why I don't come to tier 1 bs
 
I suppose this distinction would not matter when a 1-A entity is interacting with beings below 1-A, since the lower reality’s framework would already be fundamentally irrelevant in comparison. However, the issue becomes more important in fights between two 1-A characters of a similar level.

In such a scenario, a character who can physically traverse or move through their own higher-order time via sheer speed should logically be faster than a character whose “Immeasurable Speed” stems solely from existing beyond lower-dimensional temporal frameworks. I feel there should be some distinction between transcending the time of inferior realities through ontological superiority and genuinely possessing movement that surpasses the temporal structure relevant to one’s own level of existence.

In fact, there was a thread about this very topic, it was supposed to be added just for 1-A Characters; https://vsbattles.com/threads/bringing-back-irrelevant-speed.181845/
 
Duedate8898 said:
For any number of reasons, one is how characters can have Tier 1 hax without being physically Tier 1. Sometimes characters are just able to damage other Tier 1 characters but aren't operating within the same space or range a Tier 1 being should be.
Click to expand...
This is not what this thread is about.
Duedate8898 said:
Sometimes, fiction just doesn't follow the logic of Tier 1 beings having speed that is immeasurable.
Click to expand...
Duedate8898 said:
The same way a character can have FTL speeds without infinite AP. Just because something logically should be one way does not mean that it is that way when it comes to fiction.
Click to expand...
This does not apply here, as we have our own strict and specific rules for 1-A, making it different from the other tiers. If we had this much liberty to say "A 1-A character can have any kind of speed the setting wants to", then there would be no point to our current rule in the FAQ that says, for example, that you cant ascend to 1-A without help from a 1-A, or that any kind of 1-A shown to be bound to space/distance/time would be an antifeat for the tier, because you could just say "fiction just doesn't follow the logic sometimes", but that is clearly not the case.
ActuallySpaceMan42 said:
Based on how 1-A entities are currently treated, possessing a qualitative superiority over a lower reality doesn't mean the absence of higher-order forms of time or causality within their own framework.

If a lower reality is fundamentally incomparable to a 1-A being, including its space, time, and causality, then using that lower framework to justify automatic Immeasurable Speed does not seem consistent. The lower reality’s temporal system would already be irrelevant in comparison.

However, this does not prevent the 1-A entity from operating within its own higher-order temporal framework. The entity may still possess its own version of time and causality relative to its native level of existence, meaning movement can still occur at a “normal” pace from the perspective of that higher reality.

Because of that, I don't think 1-A entities should automatically qualify for Immeasurable Speed solely because of their qualitative superiority over lower-dimensional realities. Such a rating should require evidence that they transcend or move independently of their own relevant temporal framework, not merely a lower one.
Click to expand...
The capabilities of a 1-A, like their tier, is judged/indexed based only on their relationship over the lower reality, not their own level of reality (they are "1-A" because they transcend the material composition of the lower reality). Likewise, the same would apply for their speed. If anything it's consistent. Them having their own level of speed is irrelevant for the purposes of the tier, unless you propose to add two speed ratings for them, or an extra key, but it seems quite redundant to me.
 
Oblivion_Of_The_Endless said:
The capabilities of a 1-A, like their tier, is judged/indexed based only on their relationship over the lower reality, not their own level of reality (they are "1-A" because they transcend the material composition of the lower reality). Likewise, the same would apply for their speed. If anything it's consistent. Them having their own level of speed is irrelevant for the purposes of the tier, unless you propose to add two speed ratings for them, or an extra key, but it seems quite redundant to me.
Click to expand...
Well, as I posted above, there was supposed to be another Speed Tiering just for 1-A and above. Then things could be compared feat-for-feat, just like all the other tiers.

I don't think Immeasurable Speed should be used as a substitute here, because the simple fact is, most 1-A Beings can't move through time, even if they view a lower reality as fictional.
 
IIRC, Ultima has said a long time ago that 1-A is Immeasurable by default, though wasn't there a proposal on a different thread to bring back a speed rating exclusive to those 1-A and above? Been a common habit of too many threads overlapping each other as of late.
 
I can see Spaceman issues. But again the issue lies in where and when we treat something as Base Reality. 1-A character (bar some weird situation where some character have 1-A smurf and not truly 1-A), when compare to the lower reality that is below them, are completely beyond all material composition of said lower reality, thus any action from 1-A character, from the perspective of non 1-A, they are immeasurable speed; but in the 1-A realm where 1-A character are bound by higher concept of physicality they could have non-Immeasurable speed. For example we real human are obviously do not have immeasurable, but from the perspective of any character within a novel our actions are immeasurable, we can freely "interact" with anything across the entire narration, but the character within the novels are bound by the flow of narration itself. Of course we does not index our real life world as 1-A or whatever it is but you guys can see the point

Anyway due to this we have two options

1. Keep thing as they are now

2. We separate two different ratings. One is speed for 1-A compare to lower reality, and another is for speed on 1-A realm. For example, X is immeasurable, Unknown in Y (1-A) realm
 
It really depends on how 1-A is implemented. Many 1-A characters would get auto-immeasurable, but it's an overgeneralization that all would.
Generally, having the speed formula not apply to you is not a reason for Immeasurable speed. You need to be able to do things like finish a race before a character that finishes instantaneously or react to an instant attack, with your reaction hitting before the attack itself. Generally the idea of finishing something prior to the present point is defining of immeasurable speed.
That is to say, you need to accomplish something by a criteria that requires time or at least a time-like notion of "before" and "after".

A 1-A character who can't act before an instantaneous attack is imaginable, on account of not being able to act backwards in time, due to not interacting with time, due to being entirely superior to it.
Neither can a character necessarily act backwards through any other notion of "before" or "after" that may apply to it at the 1-A level.

Basically, a speed rating serves to answer questions of "what happens first", so if no conception of "before" or "after" or "first" can be established, you're not fast, you're lacking speed feats.
 
So, there seem to be three possible approaches here:
  1. Implement the 1-A and above speed rating proposed in Phoenk’s CRT.
  2. Simply grant all 1-A and higher characters Immeasurable Speed.
  3. Give such characters two separate speed ratings:
    • Immeasurable Speed in relation to lower realities/frameworks.
    • A separate speed rating relevant to the ontological plane or layer of reality they themselves operate on.
The second option would require the least amount of work, while the third would require the most, as it would involve reviewing a large number of 1-A and higher profiles.

The first option helps avoid the issue of automatically assigning Immeasurable Speed to everything at 1-A and above, but it does not fully address the problem of distinguishing speed between two 1-A entities existing on the same ontological level.

Personally, I'm fine with the first option.
 
I don't really think the 'ontological speed' spaceman mentioned matters all that much, at least as far as just general indexing goes. The perceived speed of a 1-A in a 1-A realm is much less important to indexing that the actual speed relative to other tiers of speed.

No matter how fast or slow a 1-A character is perceived to be inside of a 1-A realm, they are still moving at a speed that it transcendent of all current speech categories on the wiki. Due to the nature of BDE Type 3 structures and entities being beyond all spatial temporal measurement. Any movement relative to such structures is beyond speed.

In my proposal on the other thread, I already mentioned that 1-A characters can be compared based on their speed relative to their layer of reality, alongside said layers of reality themselves. It would function similar to AP, in that you could have both 'potency,' and 'layers,' but for speed. If you're really fast relative to your layer of reality, then you would still remain fast relative to characters of that same layer of reality. And you could compare 1-As in that way. But characters who are in higher or lower layers of reality would be ontologically slower or faster than you. To the same extent that someone on, say, a higher or lower R>F layer would be ontologically superior or inferior to you.

And due to those factors, merging that form of speed into Immeasurable seems like a big hassle. You'd need to differentiate between so many things within that same speed tier. I think it'd be rather confusing.
 
ActuallySpaceMan42 said:
So, there seem to be three possible approaches here:
  1. Implement the 1-A and above speed rating proposed in Phoenk’s CRT.
  2. Simply grant all 1-A and higher characters Immeasurable Speed.
  3. Give such characters two separate speed ratings:
    • Immeasurable Speed in relation to lower realities/frameworks.
    • A separate speed rating relevant to the ontological plane or layer of reality they themselves operate on.
The second option would require the least amount of work, while the third would require the most, as it would involve reviewing a large number of 1-A and higher profiles.

The first option helps avoid the issue of automatically assigning Immeasurable Speed to everything at 1-A and above, but it does not fully address the problem of distinguishing speed between two 1-A entities existing on the same ontological level.

Personally, I'm fine with the first option.
Click to expand...
I'd disagree with the third option just for the sake of indexing here, it doesn't take into account that technically there'd be 3 speed levels if the character has Omnipresence (i.e Omnipresence, Immeasurable and Irrelevant Speed on the same key). The problem is that although Omnipresence is more of like a state of existence for the character instead of Speed, current indexing still lists it within the Speed section if anything. So yeah the third option in this scenario would just make things complicated.

I'll propose all the options though;
1. Anyone agreeing with the proposal would meant that "all" physically 1-A characters are automatically Immeasurable Speed by default, this however does not take into account @DontTalkDT's statement that whilst many 1-A characters are Immeasurable Speed by default, not all of them are Immeasurable Speed.

2. Anyone agreeing with listing a separate speed section (such as Irrelevant Speed) would instead be listed neutral in the proposal.

3. Anyone agreeing with the notion that 1-A characters aren't Immeasurable Speed by default, which is how the standard operates currently would be listed as them disagreeing with the proposal and keep the current standards as it is yeah.

On a second note, I don't know if it's possible to even have 1-A characters and for them to still be "physical" but the point is that as long as they qualitatively view all of space and time as nothingness (which is what all 1-A characters are) based on the 1-A standards currently.
 
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