• This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.

    For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here.
  • We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.

    Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.

    Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page.
  • Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.

[ONE VOTE NEEDED] Ben 10: “OK, so you’re saying the sword needs someone worthy.” - Ascalon re-interpretation

Ghengiroo115

Ghengiroo115

She/Her
Messages
2,412
Reaction score
1,911
How powerful is Ascalon?
Hold on now, what’s with that last part? For the entire arc Ascalon is treated as an inferior force to Dagon, yet Ben with Ascalon is able to no diff Vilgax wielding Dagon’s power. What’s going on here?

Answer: Ben is worthy

Azmuth (the creator of Ascalon) states that a “worthy” wielder of the sword would be unstoppable. It’s jokingly foreshadowed that Ben could end up being a worthy wielder, which is then indirectly confirmed at the end of the arc when Azmuth states Ben has proven his worth and the Ultimatrix is now unworthy of being wielded by him. Because of these statements alongside the fact that Ben performs significantly better with Ascalon than anyone else, it’s clear that only he is able to draw out its full power.

Profile changes

Ascalon:
  • Old: At least Solar System level+, possibly Multi-Solar System level
  • New: Usually Solar System level+, at least Multi-Solar System level at peak, higher with Absorption
  • Note: Doesn’t make much sense for post-Dagon absorption to have a whole different key, it should just be a “with absorption” thing.
Ben (with Ascalon):
  • Old: …At least Solar System level+, possibly Multi-Solar System level with Ascalon…
  • New: At least Multi-Solar System level, higher with Absorption, up to Complex Multiverse level, likely Hyperverse level via Ultimatrix Self-Destruct mode
  • Note: Ben’s “with Ascalon” stuff should be in a separate key. Not only is it more consistent with George also having his own key for Ascalon, but it also would look significantly neater.
EDIT: Sir George currently gets his Class Z Lifting Strength rating from Ben, which wouldn’t make much sense when Ben is much stronger. He should lose this Class Z rating, alongside these characters:
Votes
 
Last edited:
Lort15 said:
Damn, George isn't worthy for Ascalon sadge, i agree. and it's likely Hyperversal not possibly tho anyways
Click to expand...
ehe-anime.gif

(took me like two mins to post the gif not in the quote lol)
 
Of course i agree.
But i think that Ascalon could be rescaled baded on the same argument WE had it as 4-B before the Tier 4 upgrade for everyone else.
 
Would this downgrade Anodites having Class Z, appearently they are scaling to that because Gwen being Capable of pushing Sir George, who is assumed to comparable to Ascalon Ben
 
Lort15 said:
Would this downgrade Anodites having Class Z, appearently they are scaling to that because Gwen being Capable of pushing Sir George, who is assumed to comparable to Ascalon Ben
Click to expand...
It should, yeah. I’ll quickly have a look at all the characters that get their LS scaling from George, and then list them in the OP.
 
Ghengiroo115 said:
When they faced each other again, George’s attacks didn’t deal much damage to the Dagon, and Dagon was able to easily finish him off once he got more serious
Click to expand...
I haven't watched UA in a while, but iirc, Dagon was groaning in pain earlier from George’s attacks, so i doubt his attacks had no effect
Ghengiroo115 said:
and Dagon was able to easily finish him off once he got more serious. While this end attack was more hax rather than just raw AP
Click to expand...
Like you said, that's more of a hax thing since the lighting was shown to bypass George's armor, presumably because it only ended up acting as a conductor for the electricity
Ghengiroo115 said:
Dagon still treated George as weak in comparison to him and a speck just like everyone else fighting against him
Click to expand...
The "speck" statement is in context to size and how he dwarfs over everyone in the battle field given how he refers to Ult Waybig as "a slightly larger speck than the other specks infesting this world," which wouldn’t be the case if “speck” here was intended to mean power since he had literally just called Gwen in her Anodite form the most powerful thing on the planet
Ghengiroo115 said:
Hold on now, what’s with that last part? For the entire arc Ascalon is treated as an inferior force to Dagon, yet Ben with Ascalon is able to no diff Vilgax wielding Dagon’s power. What’s going on here?

Answer: Ben is worthy

Azmuth (the creator of Ascalon) states that a “worthy” wielder of the sword would be unstoppable. It’s jokingly foreshadowed that Ben could end up being a worthy wielder, which is then indirectly confirmed at the end of the arc when Azmuth states Ben has proven his worth and the Ultimatrix is now unworthy of being wielded by him. Because of these statements alongside the fact that Ben performs significantly better with Ascalon than anyone else, it’s clear that only he is able to draw out its full power.
Click to expand...
The most obvious problem with this is that if George wasn't worthy, than earth would've suffered a similar fate to the incursion home world when George tried to wield it

But even with that aside, George used Acsalon to slay the Dagon, took and hid it's heart (which is the source of it's power), found the forever knights in case of it's second coming, and than retired. If he was unworthy, he would have succumb to Acsalon's corruption (especially since he'd also have all the power of the Dagon on top of that of Acsalon since he had it's heart) and never have abandoned all that power

Ben no diffed Dagonax because Dagonax had no idea how to use his power properly (this is implied somewhere, i just don't remember where because i haven't UA in a while), it really has nothing to do with Ben being worthy and George not

Lastly, I hate to nitpick, but how could Azmuth be foreshadowing Ben being worthy a whole 1,000 years before Ben was even born? The statement about a worthy wielder being unstoppable is pretty obviously in context to George tbh
 
Okstrike said:
I haven't watched UA in a while, but iirc, Dagon was groaning in pain earlier from George’s attacks, so i doubt his attacks had no effect
Click to expand...
He does yeah, George is able to hurt him a bit but can’t deal lasting damage. This is likely a holding back Dagon based on the reasons I gave before, but even if Dagon wasn’t holding back George not being able to beat him so easily is a contradiction with what Ben did later (as well as a contradiction to all of George’s previous scaling with both Ultimate Humungousaur and Lucubra Vilgax).

Okstrike said:
The "speck" statement is in context to size and how he dwarfs over everyone in the battle field given how he refers to Ult Waybig as "a slightly larger speck than the other specks infesting this world," which wouldn’t be the case if “speck” here was intended to mean power since he had literally just called Gwen in her Anodite form the most powerful thing on the planet
Click to expand...
He also calls George an “insignificant speck” at the beginning of the episode after George attacks him for the first time, after which his immediate reaction is to tell Vilgax to destroy George (unfortunately not in a scan-collecting position rn, but the Ben 10 wiki has a transcript of the whole episode so you can check there if you need to). After realising Vilgax left him he just summons Esoterica to fight George, deeming him not even worth fighting until George gets through the Esoterica.

The “slightly larger speck” statement was directed towards base Way Big, and he didn’t have time to dismiss Ultimate Way Big before immediately being surprised by his power (despite Ultimate Way Big still being tiny in comparison to Dagon). It seems more like a double meaning to me, meaning both size and power. Dagon’s reaction after a single punch from Ultimate Way Big is also further support that Dagon sees himself above George, as he doesn’t believe anyone should be as close to his strength as Ultimate Way Big was.

Okstrike said:
The most obvious problem with this is that if George wasn't worthy, than earth would've suffered a similar fate to the incursion home world when George tried to wield it

But even with that aside, George used Acsalon to slay the Dagon, took and hid it's heart (which is the source of it's power), found the forever knights in case of it's second coming, and than retired. If he was unworthy, he would have succumb to Acsalon's corruption (especially since he'd also have all the power of the Dagon on top of that of Acsalon since he had it's heart) and never have abandoned all that power
Click to expand...
Power corrupts in different ways. As far as I can remember, George is never shown to have a strong desire for power and only ever wanted Ascalon to stop Dagon. He has no desire for Dagon’s power, so Ascalon wouldn’t tempt him into taking it. Ben’s first instinct was to turn the Esoterica back into humans, and only started being tempted by Ascalon’s power when Vilgax planted the “destroy all evil” thing in his head.

We don’t know how long it’ll take for Ascalon’s power to overwhelm someone, or why Ascalon eventually destroyed the Incursean world in the first place. We know it’s not an instant thing considering Vilgax wielded it for a few minutes with no issues, and the Incursean Warrior was able to bring it all the way from Galvan Prime to their homeworld.

Okstrike said:
Ben no diffed Dagonax because Dagonax had no idea how to use his power properly (this is implied somewhere, i just don't remember where because i haven't UA in a while), it really has nothing to do with Ben being worthy and George not
Click to expand...
The only thing I know of that implies that is Ben saying Vilgax would need a couple weeks to learn Dagon’s powers to track them down, however this:
  1. Is immediately disproven when Vilgax finds them right after he says that.
  2. Wouldn’t affect his raw strength, only the knowledge of what abilities he has.
Even if he was weaker than Dagon, he would still be far stronger than his Lucubra form, which was previously fighting on par with George and was believed by Dagon to be capable of defeating him.

Okstrike said:
Lastly, I hate to nitpick, but how could Azmuth be foreshadowing Ben being worthy a whole 1,000 years before Ben was even born? The statement about a worthy wielder being unstoppable is pretty obviously in context to George tbh
Click to expand...
That’s not the statement I’m talking about, the foreshadowing is from Ben insinuating he could be worthy. Azmuth also didn’t believe even back then that George was definitely worthy, as he feared giving George Ascalon might’ve doomed humanity.
 
I think an at least High 5-A should be added for those who aren't worthy of the sword (like Vilgax or that random Incursean) should be added.
 
Bump

I think 2 votes is enough, but I’m gonna wait another few days anyway just to see if anyone else chimes in (also I’m not feeling great rn and need time to write the new justifications ready for the pages).
 
TheOrangeGuy09 said:
Isn't Ben 10 one of verses that require 3 approvals instead of 2?
Click to expand...
I assumed it was, but I wasn’t sure if this thread specifically was big enough to warrant three. That’s another reason I said I was gonna wait, just in case two wasn’t enough.

On second thoughts it probably does need three so I guess it’s back to waiting.
 
Reiner04 said:
Yes
Click to expand...
Isn't this CRT are very simple, since it's just rework tier?
For minor revisions and self-evident revisions of small and/or non-controversial verses, it is sufficient to seek the approval of one staff member with evaluation rights. For minor revisions and self-evident revisions of popular, widely-recognized or controversial verses, it is sufficient to seek the approval of two staff members with evaluation rights (Examples: Naruto, Marvel Comics, DC Comics, Dragon Ball, Devil May Cry, God of War, One Piece, Bleach).
Click to expand...
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

Lort15
  • Locked
Omnitrix Profile Revamp
2 3
Replies
102
Views
7K
Reiner04
Reiner04
Addition of new Powers and Abilities for some characters and aliens (Christmas Update)
Replies
34
Views
2K
jgms2008
Ultimate-Rex1
Ben 10: Mana page overheal and updates (Need staffs)
2 3
Replies
110
Views
8K
Ultimate-Rex1
Ultimate-Rex1
Lonkitt
  • Locked
Ben 10: Removing Vilgax Attacks and Cosmic Destruction from Mainline Canon [ACCEPTED]
3 4 5
Replies
185
Views
13K
Dereck03
Dereck03
Big Chill Downgrade
Replies
21
Views
2K
DemonicDude
DemonicDude
Back
Top