[ONE VOTE NEEDED] Ben 10: “OK, so you’re saying the sword needs someone worthy.” - Ascalon re-interpretation

[Ghengiroo115]

How powerful is Ascalon?

• When wielded by Sir George in the past, he had a brutal battle against the Dagon that ended with him cutting out the creature’s heart and sealing him away, as he was unable to properly kill him. According to Azmuth, Dagon underestimated George in their first fight, and it’s possible this wasn’t even Dagon’s true form as he is an energy being yet had a physical heart to cut out. The story told by the Forever Knight Driscoll also describes Dagon as a dragon like in the real life tale of Saint George and the Dragon.
• When they faced each other again, George’s attacks didn’t deal much damage to the Dagon, and Dagon was able to easily finish him off once he got more serious. While this end attack was more hax rather than just raw AP, Dagon still treated George as weak in comparison to him and a speck just like everyone else fighting against him. You can also tell Dagon was holding back at first because Chromastone treated Gwen’s spell as a bigger boost than what Dagon just gave him, yet Dagon was barely phased by this attack unlike the first one.
• George wielding Ascalon fought on par with Lucubra Vilgax, who draws power from Dagon. This means a small part of Dagon’s power is able to match George.
• George with Ascalon fights relatively with Ultimate Humungousaur, and fights alongside a charged-up Eatle against Lucubra Vilgax. Both of these aliens are inferior to Way Big and by extension far inferior to Ultimate Way Big, the latter of who actually briefly surprised Dagon with his power, yet still lost to him.
• When Vilgax wielded Ascalon and began speaking with Dagon, their conversation implies that Dagon’s power is greater than that of Ascalon’s. Considering Lucubra Vilgax is capable of fighting against both George and Ben’s aliens at the same time, this implication is supported by later scaling. Furthermore, Driscoll also claims Dagon’s power is “unmatchable” while not having the same bias for his power that Dagon himself would have.
• When Ben wields Ascalon, he casually defeats Vilgax who had absorbed the full power of Dagon.

Hold on now, what’s with that last part? For the entire arc Ascalon is treated as an inferior force to Dagon, yet Ben with Ascalon is able to no diff Vilgax wielding Dagon’s power. What’s going on here?

Answer: Ben is worthy

Azmuth (the creator of Ascalon) states that a “worthy” wielder of the sword would be unstoppable. It’s jokingly foreshadowed that Ben could end up being a worthy wielder, which is then indirectly confirmed at the end of the arc when Azmuth states Ben has proven his worth and the Ultimatrix is now unworthy of being wielded by him. Because of these statements alongside the fact that Ben performs significantly better with Ascalon than anyone else, it’s clear that only he is able to draw out its full power.

Profile changes

Ascalon:

• Old: At least Solar System level+, possibly Multi-Solar System level
• New: Usually Solar System level+, at least Multi-Solar System level at peak, higher with Absorption
• Note: Doesn’t make much sense for post-Dagon absorption to have a whole different key, it should just be a “with absorption” thing.

Ben (with Ascalon):

• Old: …At least Solar System level+, possibly Multi-Solar System level with Ascalon…
• New: At least Multi-Solar System level, higher with Absorption, up to Complex Multiverse level, likely Hyperverse level via Ultimatrix Self-Destruct mode
• Note: Ben’s “with Ascalon” stuff should be in a separate key. Not only is it more consistent with George also having his own key for Ascalon, but it also would look significantly neater.

EDIT: Sir George currently gets his Class Z Lifting Strength rating from Ben, which wouldn’t make much sense when Ben is much stronger. He should lose this Class Z rating, alongside these characters:

• Gwen Tennyson (Anodite form)
• Verdona
• Eatle at his peak

Votes

• Agree: @Alexander, @Lort15, @GeneralSol16 (before edit), @Fared, @Reiner04, @AyOgUyS, @Firestorm808,
• Disagree: @Okstrike
• Neutral:

 

[Alexander]

AGREEEEE

 

[Lort15]

Damn, George isn't worthy for Ascalon sadge, i agree. and it's likely Hyperversal not possibly tho anyways

 

[Ghengiroo115]

Damn, George isn't worthy for Ascalon sadge, i agree. and it's likely Hyperversal not possibly tho anyways

(took me like two mins to post the gif not in the quote lol)

 

[Reiner04]

Looks fine

 

[GeneralSol16]

Of course i agree.
But i think that Ascalon could be rescaled baded on the same argument WE had it as 4-B before the Tier 4 upgrade for everyone else.

 

[Lort15]

Would this downgrade Anodites having Class Z, appearently they are scaling to that because Gwen being Capable of pushing Sir George, who is assumed to comparable to Ascalon Ben

 

[Ghengiroo115]

Would this downgrade Anodites having Class Z, appearently they are scaling to that because Gwen being Capable of pushing Sir George, who is assumed to comparable to Ascalon Ben

It should, yeah. I’ll quickly have a look at all the characters that get their LS scaling from George, and then list them in the OP.

 

[Fared]

Makes sense agreed

 

[Ultimate-Rex1]

EDIT: Sir George currently gets his Class Z Lifting Strength rating from Ben, which wouldn’t make much sense when Ben is much stronger. He should lose this Class Z rating, alongside these characters:

• Gwen Tennyson (Anodite form)
• Verdona
• Eatle at his peak

You should told Reiner about this edit

 

[Ghengiroo115]

You should told Reiner about this edit

If he checks on the thread again then hopefully he’ll see, for now I’ll just separate pre-edit votes to post-edit votes.

 

[Reiner04]

EDIT: Sir George currently gets his Class Z Lifting Strength rating from Ben, which wouldn’t make much sense when Ben is much stronger. He should lose this Class Z rating, alongside these characters:

• Gwen Tennyson (Anodite form)
• Verdona
• Eatle at his peak

 

[AyOgUyS]

OP makes sense to me, this seems straightforward. Agreed.

 

[Okstrike]

Overall, i disagree with most of OP's points, will give my reasoning tmr

 

[Okstrike]

When they faced each other again, George’s attacks didn’t deal much damage to the Dagon, and Dagon was able to easily finish him off once he got more serious

I haven't watched UA in a while, but iirc, Dagon was groaning in pain earlier from George’s attacks, so i doubt his attacks had no effect

and Dagon was able to easily finish him off once he got more serious. While this end attack was more hax rather than just raw AP

Like you said, that's more of a hax thing since the lighting was shown to bypass George's armor, presumably because it only ended up acting as a conductor for the electricity

Dagon still treated George as weak in comparison to him and a speck just like everyone else fighting against him

The "speck" statement is in context to size and how he dwarfs over everyone in the battle field given how he refers to Ult Waybig as "a slightly larger speck than the other specks infesting this world," which wouldn’t be the case if “speck” here was intended to mean power since he had literally just called Gwen in her Anodite form the most powerful thing on the planet

Hold on now, what’s with that last part? For the entire arc Ascalon is treated as an inferior force to Dagon, yet Ben with Ascalon is able to no diff Vilgax wielding Dagon’s power. What’s going on here?

Answer: Ben is worthy

Azmuth (the creator of Ascalon) states that a “worthy” wielder of the sword would be unstoppable. It’s jokingly foreshadowed that Ben could end up being a worthy wielder, which is then indirectly confirmed at the end of the arc when Azmuth states Ben has proven his worth and the Ultimatrix is now unworthy of being wielded by him. Because of these statements alongside the fact that Ben performs significantly better with Ascalon than anyone else, it’s clear that only he is able to draw out its full power.

The most obvious problem with this is that if George wasn't worthy, than earth would've suffered a similar fate to the incursion home world when George tried to wield it

But even with that aside, George used Acsalon to slay the Dagon, took and hid it's heart (which is the source of it's power), found the forever knights in case of it's second coming, and than retired. If he was unworthy, he would have succumb to Acsalon's corruption (especially since he'd also have all the power of the Dagon on top of that of Acsalon since he had it's heart) and never have abandoned all that power

Ben no diffed Dagonax because Dagonax had no idea how to use his power properly (this is implied somewhere, i just don't remember where because i haven't UA in a while), it really has nothing to do with Ben being worthy and George not

Lastly, I hate to nitpick, but how could Azmuth be foreshadowing Ben being worthy a whole 1,000 years before Ben was even born? The statement about a worthy wielder being unstoppable is pretty obviously in context to George tbh

 

[Ghengiroo115]

I haven't watched UA in a while, but iirc, Dagon was groaning in pain earlier from George’s attacks, so i doubt his attacks had no effect

He does yeah, George is able to hurt him a bit but can’t deal lasting damage. This is likely a holding back Dagon based on the reasons I gave before, but even if Dagon wasn’t holding back George not being able to beat him so easily is a contradiction with what Ben did later (as well as a contradiction to all of George’s previous scaling with both Ultimate Humungousaur and Lucubra Vilgax).

The "speck" statement is in context to size and how he dwarfs over everyone in the battle field given how he refers to Ult Waybig as "a slightly larger speck than the other specks infesting this world," which wouldn’t be the case if “speck” here was intended to mean power since he had literally just called Gwen in her Anodite form the most powerful thing on the planet

He also calls George an “insignificant speck” at the beginning of the episode after George attacks him for the first time, after which his immediate reaction is to tell Vilgax to destroy George (unfortunately not in a scan-collecting position rn, but the Ben 10 wiki has a transcript of the whole episode so you can check there if you need to). After realising Vilgax left him he just summons Esoterica to fight George, deeming him not even worth fighting until George gets through the Esoterica.

The “slightly larger speck” statement was directed towards base Way Big, and he didn’t have time to dismiss Ultimate Way Big before immediately being surprised by his power (despite Ultimate Way Big still being tiny in comparison to Dagon). It seems more like a double meaning to me, meaning both size and power. Dagon’s reaction after a single punch from Ultimate Way Big is also further support that Dagon sees himself above George, as he doesn’t believe anyone should be as close to his strength as Ultimate Way Big was.

The most obvious problem with this is that if George wasn't worthy, than earth would've suffered a similar fate to the incursion home world when George tried to wield it

But even with that aside, George used Acsalon to slay the Dagon, took and hid it's heart (which is the source of it's power), found the forever knights in case of it's second coming, and than retired. If he was unworthy, he would have succumb to Acsalon's corruption (especially since he'd also have all the power of the Dagon on top of that of Acsalon since he had it's heart) and never have abandoned all that power

Power corrupts in different ways. As far as I can remember, George is never shown to have a strong desire for power and only ever wanted Ascalon to stop Dagon. He has no desire for Dagon’s power, so Ascalon wouldn’t tempt him into taking it. Ben’s first instinct was to turn the Esoterica back into humans, and only started being tempted by Ascalon’s power when Vilgax planted the “destroy all evil” thing in his head.

We don’t know how long it’ll take for Ascalon’s power to overwhelm someone, or why Ascalon eventually destroyed the Incursean world in the first place. We know it’s not an instant thing considering Vilgax wielded it for a few minutes with no issues, and the Incursean Warrior was able to bring it all the way from Galvan Prime to their homeworld.

Ben no diffed Dagonax because Dagonax had no idea how to use his power properly (this is implied somewhere, i just don't remember where because i haven't UA in a while), it really has nothing to do with Ben being worthy and George not

The only thing I know of that implies that is Ben saying Vilgax would need a couple weeks to learn Dagon’s powers to track them down, however this:

1. Is immediately disproven when Vilgax finds them right after he says that.
2. Wouldn’t affect his raw strength, only the knowledge of what abilities he has.

Even if he was weaker than Dagon, he would still be far stronger than his Lucubra form, which was previously fighting on par with George and was believed by Dagon to be capable of defeating him.

Lastly, I hate to nitpick, but how could Azmuth be foreshadowing Ben being worthy a whole 1,000 years before Ben was even born? The statement about a worthy wielder being unstoppable is pretty obviously in context to George tbh

That’s not the statement I’m talking about, the foreshadowing is from Ben insinuating he could be worthy. Azmuth also didn’t believe even back then that George was definitely worthy, as he feared giving George Ascalon might’ve doomed humanity.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

(took me like two mins to post the gif not in the quote lol)

Mobile version genuinely sucks so much because of that ngl

 

[Ghengiroo115]

Bump

 

[Ghengiroo115]

Bump

 

[Ghengiroo115]

Bump

 

[Ghengiroo115]

Bump

 

[Ghengiroo115]

Bump

 

[Ghengiroo115]

Bump

 

[Ghengiroo115]

Bump

 

[Ghengiroo115]

Bump?

 

[Reiner04]

@Firestorm808

 

[GeneralSol16]

I think an at least High 5-A should be added for those who aren't worthy of the sword (like Vilgax or that random Incursean) should be added.

 

[Ghengiroo115]

I think an at least High 5-A should be added for those who aren't worthy of the sword (like Vilgax or that random Incursean) should be added.

They’re all 4-B right now so I don’t think that’s necessary.

 

[Firestorm808]

I suppose.

 

[Ghengiroo115]

Bump

I think 2 votes is enough, but I’m gonna wait another few days anyway just to see if anyone else chimes in (also I’m not feeling great rn and need time to write the new justifications ready for the pages).

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Isn't Ben 10 one of verses that require 3 approvals instead of 2?

 

[Reiner04]

Isn't Ben 10 one of verses that require 3 approvals instead of 2?

Yes

 

[Ghengiroo115]

Isn't Ben 10 one of verses that require 3 approvals instead of 2?

I assumed it was, but I wasn’t sure if this thread specifically was big enough to warrant three. That’s another reason I said I was gonna wait, just in case two wasn’t enough.

On second thoughts it probably does need three so I guess it’s back to waiting.

 

[Ghengiroo115]

Bump

 

[Ghengiroo115]

Bump

 

[Ghengiroo115]

Bump

 

[AyOgUyS]

You should contact more staff at this point.

 

[Ghengiroo115]

Bump

 

[Ghengiroo115]

Bump

 

[Ultimate-Rex1]

Yes

Isn't this CRT are very simple, since it's just rework tier?

For minor revisions and self-evident revisions of small and/or non-controversial verses, it is sufficient to seek the approval of one staff member with evaluation rights. For minor revisions and self-evident revisions of popular, widely-recognized or controversial verses, it is sufficient to seek the approval of two staff members with evaluation rights (Examples: Naruto, Marvel Comics, DC Comics, Dragon Ball, Devil May Cry, God of War, One Piece, Bleach).