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General DC Comics Discussion Thread

BonjourGnome said:
Wouldn't that downgrade entire DC cosmology to L1A because a guy trancending into higher planes by himself is anti feat?
Click to expand...
1 anti feat isn’t more important then dc’s numerous 1-A to high 1-A statements, also where are you getting that doctor manhattan scales to dc’s entire cosmology?
 
Rgerdeena said:
1 anti feat isn’t more important then dc’s numerous 1-A to high 1-A statements, also where are you getting that doctor manhattan scales to dc’s entire cosmology?
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It is important if it is anti feat.

But Ultima says amplification in question can be done some weird metaphysical way without needing higher world "genie" bs. I suppose Swamp Thing goes for this category
 
Hecky2222 said:
It is important if it is anti feat.
Click to expand...
why do you debunk my argument but not da3ggman’s argument
Wasn’t disregarding it, was just saying that one anti feat shouldn’t downgrade all of the cosmology they scale to
But Ultima says amplification in question can be done some weird metaphysical way without needing higher world "genie" bs. I suppose Swamp Thing goes for this category
Click to expand...
I can live with this, especially since doctor manhattan’s backstory is purposefully really weird
 
PromptedElephant641 said:
No. Hypertime is greatly misunderstood by the scaling community. It is an abstraction that exists at every level of the Divine Continuum. As such there are unimaginable levels to Hypertime. The complete entirety of Hypertime was made by hand by the World forger in the Sixth Dimension, but this is NOT AT ALL to be confused with the far far lesser versions that can be manipulated by for example: an avatar of Metron and an alternate superboy known as Black Zero in the Hypertension story arc or Jonathan Kent (Hyperman of Earth-22) in Kingdom Come, or The flash, or by the Linear men such as Rip Hunter. There are Hypertime levels that exist on the level of Mr Mxyzptlk that imps can manipulate and degrees of Hypertime that can be manipulated by the gods. There are different levels of hyper time for every realm in the Divine Continuum. As can be seen in the timelines section it is quite clear that each point in a universes timeline produces an infinite number of alternate timelines and this process goes on into infinity. Hypertime on the other hand is a Plot device that the Authors at DC, and even the creators Mark Waid and Grant Morrison, have never kept consistent and really we should try to avoid scaling people to Hypertime as it can mean A LOT of different things. Ultimately Hypertime has been used several times in DC to make every part of the intellectual property owned by DC comics part of the overall DC Multiverse such as when Mr Mxyzptlk shows a Lego variant of himself or when Skeleton shows video game and even action figure versions of himself and this is how we should view it. Mark Waid and Grant Morrison used Hypertime to get around the fact that the Crisis on infinite Earths was supposed to have eliminated the multiverse, but as can be seen in my massive post above, this was entirely unnecessary as there were many many other authors that ignored the one universe status quo and said there were infinite universes any way so it really did not matter. Hypertime as depicted in Hypertension or in The Kingdom is really just a stand in for the multiverse and should not be viewed in any other way. Eventually I will provide a massive info dump that will resolve the nature of Hypertime once and for all.
Click to expand...
My apologies. After looking into it more carefully, you are correct that Hypertime exists as an abstraction across all levels of the Divine Continuum. Numerous pieces of evidence support this interpretation, though Hypertime is notably inconsistent in its portrayal. This is why, as stated in the blog beings capable of interacting with its timelines should not scales to Hypertime in its entirety, with the exception of sixth-dimensional beings or comparable or superior beings. Regarding the relationship between timelines and universes, a single universe can generate branching "variables", or alternative possibilities, which can diverge internally within it, but also interact across continuity under Hypertime. They are not strictly contained within Hypertime as i thought, but they burrow through it. As such, this portion of the DC Cosmology should be adjusted.

Even the creation of 52 new universes is the result of new branches worming their way through Hypertime but were isolated from the broader reality. Previous iterations of the local Multiverse still exist because of Hypertime, like the "Multiverse-2" as you mentioned. Ultimately, Hypertime is a very complex system whose purpose has become very inconsistent over the years.
 
BonjourGnome said:
Wouldn't that downgrade entire DC cosmology to L1A because a guy trancending into higher planes by himself is anti feat?
Click to expand...
No, because he became plugged to Anti-Crisis Energy, a connective force that links all lives and all history into a single story and includes all energies within the positive aspect of the Totality. Anti-Crisis Energy, or sometimes called Connective Energy, is also derived from The Source and used by the Hands to shape Multiverses across the void. Each positive energy governs a primary aspect of the Multiverse, such as the Emotional Spectrum which governs emotions, the Speed Force which governs movements, or the Sphere of the Gods which governs all divinity and all magic. Doctor Manhattan is brimming with this energy.
 
Elizio33 said:
My apologies. After looking into it more carefully, you are correct that Hypertime exists as an abstraction across all levels of the Divine Continuum. Numerous pieces of evidence support this interpretation, though Hypertime is notably inconsistent in its portrayal. This is why, as stated in the blog beings capable of interacting with its timelines should not scales to Hypertime in its entirety, with the exception of sixth-dimensional beings or comparable or superior beings. Regarding the relationship between timelines and universes, a single universe can generate branching "variables", or alternative possibilities, which can diverge internally within it, but also interact across continuity under Hypertime. They are not strictly contained within Hypertime as i thought, but they burrow through it. As such, this portion of the DC Cosmology should be adjusted.

Even the creation of 52 new universes is the result of new branches worming their way through Hypertime but were isolated from the broader reality. Previous iterations of the local Multiverse still exist because of Hypertime, like the "Multiverse-2" as you mentioned. Ultimately, Hypertime is a very complex system whose purpose has become very inconsistent over the years.
Click to expand...
Hypertime is definitely the strangest part of DC Cosmology by a significant margin. I think in order to avoid incorrect interpretations of characters and inflated statistics, the only character who should directly scale to Hypertime or have Hypertime as a justification for their tier is the World Forger himself and his brothers that scale to him. Otherwise it is simply not possible to determine how to tier the lesser versions of Hypertime that permeate every level of reality in the Divine Continuum. Hypertime has two main interpretations used commonly by the writers and both have been used lately. The first is actually the far less impressive depiction such as in John Stewart: The Emerald Knight where it is described merely as timelines that do not actually diverge from the main timeline and instead remerge forming a closed loop. The far more impressive TRUE version can best be seen in Flashpoint Beyond where it is described as the Time Half of the ENTIRE Divine Continuum as well as containing ALL versions of reality that have ever existed and at every level even after they have been erased: "Hypertime is the Omniversal vault of life. Here, every alternate reality that has ever existed continues to function in an incomprehensibly vast gallery of probabilities.” - The DC Book: A Vast and Vibrant Multiverse. In my first mega post I mention how it is for all intents and purposes impossible for beings below the level Three Monitor Brothers to truly erase a reality due to Hypertime containing and maintaining erased realities no matter what happens to them. This does not mean that universes can not be destroyed in DC Comics, it just means that when a universe is "destroyed" by some random villain it is not truly gone and is still a part of Hypertime and can return at any time. With this being the true nature of reality, the list of villains that are powerful enough to truly erase a universe in DC is very small.
 
Elizio33 said:
No, because he became plugged to Anti-Crisis Energy, a connective force that links all lives and all history into a single story and includes all energies within the positive aspect of the Totality. Anti-Crisis Energy, or sometimes called Connective Energy, is also derived from The Source and used by the Hands to shape Multiverses across the void. Each positive energy governs a primary aspect of the Multiverse, such as the Emotional Spectrum which governs emotions, the Speed Force which governs movements, or the Sphere of the Gods which governs all divinity and all magic. Doctor Manhattan is brimming with this energy.
Click to expand...
Additionally, Doctor Manhattan has access to something called Blue Shift Energy which is stated to be the most dangerous energy on either side (Time or Space) of the Divine Continuum as mentioned in Flashpoint Beyond Vol1 #4.
 
Elizio33 said:
My apologies. After looking into it more carefully, you are correct that Hypertime exists as an abstraction across all levels of the Divine Continuum. Numerous pieces of evidence support this interpretation, though Hypertime is notably inconsistent in its portrayal. This is why, as stated in the blog beings capable of interacting with its timelines should not scales to Hypertime in its entirety, with the exception of sixth-dimensional beings or comparable or superior beings. Regarding the relationship between timelines and universes, a single universe can generate branching "variables", or alternative possibilities, which can diverge internally within it, but also interact across continuity under Hypertime. They are not strictly contained within Hypertime as i thought, but they burrow through it. As such, this portion of the DC Cosmology should be adjusted.

Even the creation of 52 new universes is the result of new branches worming their way through Hypertime but were isolated from the broader reality. Previous iterations of the local Multiverse still exist because of Hypertime, like the "Multiverse-2" as you mentioned. Ultimately, Hypertime is a very complex system whose purpose has become very inconsistent over the years.
Click to expand...
Again you should check the blog I posted earlier since it has some interesting scans on Morrison’s conceptions of Hypertime and meta-continuity from the Invisibles up to Green Lantern.


I could definitely see Hypertime at its peak being a meta-meta qualitative superiority (it’s an infinitely extendable framework wherein one plane within it is just the 5th dimension); 6th dimension is above that, and then there’s infinite other possible creations on that level just floating on the Monitor-Mind.
 
Osemere said:
Again you should check the blog I posted earlier since it has some interesting scans on Morrison’s conceptions of Hypertime and meta-continuity from the Invisibles up to Green Lantern


I could definitely see Hypertime at its peak being a meta-meta qualitative superiority (it’s an infinitely extendable framework wherein one plane within it is just the 5th dimension); 6th dimension is above that, and then there’s infinite other possible creations on that level just floating on the Monitor-Mind (H1-A+).
Click to expand...
By the time I get to it the Sixth Dimension will coincidentally enough be 6 degrees of Meta-Meta qualitative transcendence and Hypertime is a subset of the Sixth Dimension. Though it will be a long time before I get to that as I am starting from the bottom and working my way up to the top. I did look through that Blog and it is certainly a good repository of Morrison scans, but many of the interpretations in the bog are flat out wrong and seemingly pulled out of nowhere or interpretations are made that are not shown in the scans. There are also many instances where non Fifth Dimensional beings are labeled as such. Regardless, Hypertime will be rated very high but It will be a while before I get around to it.
 
PromptedElephant641 said:
By the time I get to it the Sixth Dimension will coincidentally enough be 6 degrees of Meta-Meta qualitative transcendence and Hypertime is a subset of the Sixth Dimension. Though it will be a long time before I get to that as I am starting from the bottom and working my way up to the top. I did look through that Blog and it is certainly a good repository of Morrison scans, but many of the interpretations in the bog are flat out wrong and seemingly pulled out of nowhere or interpretations are made that are not shown in the scans. There are also many instances where non Fifth Dimensional beings are labeled as such. Regardless, Hypertime will be rated very high but It will be a while before I get around to it.
Click to expand...
Curious, what’s your general sketch for the placements you’ve got so far? I agree that the blog is pretty much inscrutable but the scans are a very good resource (e.g., the Guardians saying the 5th dimensional imps operate on a level of power beyond their ability to quantify with any numerical system, interesting connections between the Invisible’s “Universe-B” with other later conceptions of Hypertime, etc.) At minimum singular “line-times” are Low 1-A due to the Doom Patrol scan of a space of all possible dimensions existing in an alternate universe.
 
PromptedElephant641 said:
Hypertime is definitely the strangest part of DC Cosmology by a significant margin. I think in order to avoid incorrect interpretations of characters and inflated statistics, the only character who should directly scale to Hypertime or have Hypertime as a justification for their tier is the World Forger himself and his brothers that scale to him. Otherwise it is simply not possible to determine how to tier the lesser versions of Hypertime that permeate every level of reality in the Divine Continuum. Hypertime has two main interpretations used commonly by the writers and both have been used lately. The first is actually the far less impressive depiction such as in John Stewart: The Emerald Knight where it is described merely as timelines that do not actually diverge from the main timeline and instead remerge forming a closed loop. The far more impressive TRUE version can best be seen in Flashpoint Beyond where it is described as the Time Half of the ENTIRE Divine Continuum as well as containing ALL versions of reality that have ever existed and at every level even after they have been erased: "Hypertime is the Omniversal vault of life. Here, every alternate reality that has ever existed continues to function in an incomprehensibly vast gallery of probabilities.” - The DC Book: A Vast and Vibrant Multiverse. In my first mega post I mention how it is for all intents and purposes impossible for beings below the level Three Monitor Brothers to truly erase a reality due to Hypertime containing and maintaining erased realities no matter what happens to them. This does not mean that universes can not be destroyed in DC Comics, it just means that when a universe is "destroyed" by some random villain it is not truly gone and is still a part of Hypertime and can return at any time. With this being the true nature of reality, the list of villains that are powerful enough to truly erase a universe in DC is very small.
Click to expand...
I agree that the World Forger and his brothers should be the only ones considered to scale to its entirety, along with Perpetua or the Darkest Knight given the inconsistent nature of Hypertime. Even the Fifth Dimension is extremely inconsistent. After the Pre-Crisis era, it was often described as imagination, but its representation varied depending on the interpretation. Some described it as a higher mathematical dimension, sensitive to physical fields; others as a time-related realm where time creates infinite possibilities; and still others as the lifeblood of the Multiverse and the energy that flows between realms. Therefore, we should be cautious regarding the interpretations of the Fifth Dimension before using them to scale a character to this dimension, or only scale it to beings such as fifth-dimensional imps or sixth-dimensional beings.
 
Osemere said:
Again you should check the blog I posted earlier since it has some interesting scans on Morrison’s conceptions of Hypertime and meta-continuity from the Invisibles up to Green Lantern.


I could definitely see Hypertime at its peak being a meta-meta qualitative superiority (it’s an infinitely extendable framework wherein one plane within it is just the 5th dimension); 6th dimension is above that, and then there’s infinite other possible creations on that level just floating on the Monitor-Mind.
Click to expand...
I'll check
 
Elizio33 said:
Some described it as a higher mathematical dimension, sensitive to physical fields; others as a time-related realm where time creates infinite possibilities; and still others as the lifeblood of the Multiverse and the energy that flows between realms
Click to expand...
thats definitely not case lol. Fifth Dimension has been rewritten later and using mathematical dimension in 2026 whereas you have confirmation of 5th and 6th Dimensions aren't spatial dimensions from Snyder is pretty strange.
 
Hecky2222 said:
thats definitely not case lol. Fifth Dimension has been rewritten later and using mathematical dimension in 2026 whereas you have confirmation of 5th and 6th Dimensions aren't spatial dimensions from Snyder is pretty strange.
Click to expand...
Yes, but its nature has been very inconsistent and the mathematical dimension stuffs i was talking about were from an old story from Grant Morrison. One thing has remained relatively consistent: the Fifth Dimension is defined as imagination.
 
Elizio33 said:
Yes, but its nature has been very inconsistent. One thing has remained relatively consistent: the Fifth Dimension is defined as imagination.
Click to expand...
Pretty sure fifth dimension is firstly described as mathematical dimension in first concept then it turned into abstract world rather than spatial world under Snyder?
 
Osemere said:
(And Low 1-A, of course, is defined through encompassing “the collection including all possible dimensional spaces.”)
Click to expand...
it isn't. All Possible dimensions term is too vague without context.
Low 1A defined by Von Neuman Universe level which would be container for "all possible dimensions" in sense it contains all aleph level of dimensions and is Proper Class. it doesn't mean we give by default every dimensional containers Low 1-A or DMC, Honkai would get easy Low 1-A. So for your scan being Low 1-A you have to prove how all possible dimensions in context indeed Proper Class which Q/A states.
 
Hecky2222 said:
Pretty sure fifth dimension is firstly described as mathematical dimension in first concept then it turned into abstract world rather than spatial world under Snyder?
Click to expand...
Yes, but its strange representations in Mark Waid’s World’s Finest point to a time-related realm where time creates infinite possibilities. However, even the Sixth Dimension were portrayed differently from Snyder's. So it is an inconsistent portrayal.
 
Hecky2222 said:
it isn't. All Possible dimensions term is too vague without context.
Low 1A defined by Von Neuman Universe level which would be container for "all possible dimensions" in sense it contains all aleph level of dimensions and is Proper Class. it doesn't mean we give by default every dimensional containers Low 1-A or DMC, Honkai would get easy Low 1-A. So for your scan being Low 1-A you have to prove how all possible dimensions in context indeed Proper Class which Q/A states.
Click to expand...
vsbattles.fandom.com

Tier Low 1-A

vsbattles.fandom.com vsbattles.fandom.com
As a general rule-of-thumb, statements of being "above dimensions" and the like, whenever validly indicating a superiority over higher dimensions, fall under this tier without further context.
Click to expand...

I don’t think DMC and Honkai have a blatant “all possible dimensions” statement in any case for the analogy to work, especially not one involving geometric dimensions (there’s other statements in the same issue talking about “dimensional spaces beyond mortal comprehension”, etc.)
 
KirbyFan03 said:
"Possible dimensions" should be used to scale something to the described dimensional peak of the verse (let's say DC has 12 dimensions and "all possible dimensions" would scale to 12D)
Click to expand...
Except that would be actual dimensions as opposed to all possible dimensions; the way the tiering system works, just name dropping “the space of all possible dimensions” is sufficient for Low 1-A (and I’m not saying the Doom Patrol thing just does that either).
 
KirbyFan03 said:
"Possible dimensions" should be used to scale something to the described dimensional peak of the verse (let's say DC has 12 dimensions and "all possible dimensions" would scale to 12D)
Click to expand...
👆

We don't assume every verse has Proper Class just because all possible dimensions mentioned.
 
Hecky2222 said:
👆

We don't assume every verse has Proper Class just because all possible dimensions mentioned.
Click to expand...
Again, it depends on context. The doom patrol issue is clearly talking about geometric infinities, namedropping “dimensional spaces beyond the imagination of mere mortals”, “a new super-dimensional configuration of hyper-geometrical spaces… opening onto dimensions we dare only dream about.” Then dropping the “all possible dimensions” statement, but only before going into descriptions like the junction being “the infinite, of worlds beyond the real…”

At minimum it’s Low 1-A.
 
Osemere said:
Except that would be actual dimensions as opposed to all possible dimensions; the way the tiering system works, just name dropping “the space of all possible dimensions” is sufficient for Low 1-A (and I’m not saying the Doom Patrol thing just does that either).
Click to expand...
I mean you cooooouuuulllldddd

It's just too loose for my taste XD
 
Osemere said:
Again, it depends on context. The doom patrol issue is clearly talking about geometric infinities, namedropping “dimensional spaces beyond the imagination of mere mortals”, “a new super-dimensional configuration of hyper-geometrical spaces… opening onto dimensions we dare only dream about.” Then dropping the “all possible dimensions” statement, but only before going into descriptions like the junction being “the infinite, of worlds beyond the real…”

At minimum it’s Low 1-A.
Click to expand...
That could work with the right args
 
Osemere said:
Again you should check the blog I posted earlier since it has some interesting scans on Morrison’s conceptions of Hypertime and meta-continuity from the Invisibles up to Green Lantern.


I could definitely see Hypertime at its peak being a meta-meta qualitative superiority (it’s an infinitely extendable framework wherein one plane within it is just the 5th dimension); 6th dimension is above that, and then there’s infinite other possible creations on that level just floating on the Monitor-Mind.
Click to expand...
When l say morrison is a nutcase believe me🤣. What beings should be above this?
 
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