Rodriiogo
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Hopefully this part won't be almost 10 pages for no reason right? (Who am I kidding)
Introduction
Currently, the speed scaling for Undertale follows this logic:
The justification for this is that some forms of magic show properties similar to the real thing (Such as Toriel's fire heating up food, Papyrus's bones attracting and feeding Dogs and Ice Magic cooling you). From this, for some reason, the scaling does a leap in logic and just decides to say that all magic is now equal to the real counterpart in every aspect, including speed.
The reasoning is just flawed to begin with from there. The fact that some magic attacks have some properties of the real thing does not logically imply that all magic within the verse must match the real one in every single way. It's just an overgeneralization with basically zero justification. So from this, the entire basis for the current speed scaling is already questionable. It relies on an assumption that is not supported by the game and is contradicted (more on that later).
Preliminary Note
Before the contradictions I wanna explain that the issue goes further than just that, this should be accepted regardless of the stance on the argument of contradictions and it not being the real thing in speed which is:
The Calculations are invalid with the in-verse scaling anyways
The current calculations calculate that Tsunderplane (and by extension Frisk) are approximately three times faster than Vulkin’s attacks. However, Vulkin is accepted to be comparable to both of them.
This is basically an indirect violation of the "Evading Punches" rule, since it is calculating that characters are way faster than attacks from someone they scale comparable to:
As such, the calculations by themselves are already wrong and shouldn't be used via the current scaling.
Now onto the main thing.
Why "Magic attacks = Real thing" should not be used
"Magic Electricity"
Vulkin
The currently accepted "electricity" scaling comes from Vulkin’s attacks, which are scaled through Tsunderplane moving in tandem with while Frisk dodges them. Other than the issue I already pointed out with the calculation above, the attack just shouldn't be used as the actual speed of electricity. Vulkin refers to the attack as a "thunder" and is manually controlling its speed ("speed up"). This is also shown by the fact that the attack’s speed changes depending on Vulkin’s emotional state (as it is now way faster after he gets hugged). The attack's speed has no correlation to any real constant speed like the speed of electricity for it to be used and is actually determined by the user like a regular magic attack.
Mettaton
I've seen some people argue that since Mettaton has similar attacks, it validates this as real electricity due to him being a robot. This also does not work. We see that his "electricity attacks" accelerate as they further move and rotate which is just not realistic and how real electricity moves. But further more, the same type of attack is used by Alphys in the cutscene before the Asriel fight. We see that the attack stands still. Despite Mettaton using the core, it is very obvious that the attack is a type of magic that even Alphys can use, not actual electricity coming out of it.
Actual Realistic showings of electricity
There are way more realistic showings of how electricity actually looks and works in the verse, and it is nothing like the attacks that both Mettaton and Vulkin use during their fight.
Conclusion: Both Mettaton and Vulkin's attacks shouldn't be the speed of electricity (556m/s) in any way. Making both the calcs and the line of scaling via electricity currently used, invalid.
"Sound"
This one is more simple, the currently accepted "sound-based" attack comes from Greater Dog’s "bark attacks". There is no evidence that the attack is actually sound/soundwaves, it is just assumed to be based purely on the fact that the attack comes from his mouth, which is just a random conclusion with 0 basis. Monsters in the game are consistently shown to shape magic into words like those, the conclusion is based on pure assumption. A better comparison would be Shyren, as she does the exact same thing, she makes magic musical note attacks from her singing coming out of her mouth. We have blatant visual confirmation in the post-credits concert, that these notes are not "sound speed" or anything like this and are even shown as moving at speeds comparable to nearby visual elements (such as Napstablook's spinning discs playing the song). There's also the fact that their movement is also inconsistent and not how real sound propagates.
Conclusion: Greater Dog's barks shouldn't be the speed of sound (343m/s) in any way. Making the calc and the line of scaling via sound currently used, invalid.
Conclusion
It is rather obvious that the characters are not meant to be moving or attacking at high speeds but if someone wants proof of this,
Alongside the fact that I already showed that Frisk gets blitzed by actual real electricity, during Undyne's chase sequence, Frisk is able to move at speeds comparable to Undyne’s spears. Undyne is currently accepted as a fast character in-verse, obviously, and by extension, her attacks should also be at that level, especially when she is very much trying to catch you here.
Frisk's running/walking speed is able to keep up with these attacks while moving at visibly slow speeds. And if visuals aren't enough, during Metaton's acts, timers explicitly show that Frisk moves at normal human speeds (Just look at the timer counting down as they move), this happens more than once even. This means Frisk's (basically stated) regular human walking/running speeds are able to move at comparable speeds to Undyne's attacks, proving they are indeed not meant to be that fast.
Let's see how this goes.
Agree:
@Armorchompy (Comment)
@Agnaa (Comment)
@Mr. Bambu (Comment)
@Dalesean027 (Comment)
@Imaginym (Comment)
Neutral:
Disagree:
@SomebodyData (Comment)
@DarkDragonMedeus (Only with Sound, Comment)
Introduction
Currently, the speed scaling for Undertale follows this logic:
- Magic attacks are treated as "real", therefore their speed is assumed to match their real counterparts.
- Frisk is shown dodging "sound" attacks in Snowdin and "electricity" in Hotlands.
- Everyone in the verse chain-scales to that in some way or another via scaling to Frisk at some period in time.
The justification for this is that some forms of magic show properties similar to the real thing (Such as Toriel's fire heating up food, Papyrus's bones attracting and feeding Dogs and Ice Magic cooling you). From this, for some reason, the scaling does a leap in logic and just decides to say that all magic is now equal to the real counterpart in every aspect, including speed.
The reasoning is just flawed to begin with from there. The fact that some magic attacks have some properties of the real thing does not logically imply that all magic within the verse must match the real one in every single way. It's just an overgeneralization with basically zero justification. So from this, the entire basis for the current speed scaling is already questionable. It relies on an assumption that is not supported by the game and is contradicted (more on that later).
Preliminary Note
Before the contradictions I wanna explain that the issue goes further than just that, this should be accepted regardless of the stance on the argument of contradictions and it not being the real thing in speed which is:
The Calculations are invalid with the in-verse scaling anyways
The current calculations calculate that Tsunderplane (and by extension Frisk) are approximately three times faster than Vulkin’s attacks. However, Vulkin is accepted to be comparable to both of them.
This is basically an indirect violation of the "Evading Punches" rule, since it is calculating that characters are way faster than attacks from someone they scale comparable to:
Refrain from calculating feats based on dodging attacks from other characters at extreme proximity, as this is primarily a trope used to exaggerate a narrow miss rather than a literal representation of overwhelming speed. Taking it at face value is often inconsistent with the battle in which the feat occurs, where the opponents are presented as equals, but the calculation results in them being considered several times faster. This should only be used when the character in question is greatly superior to the one who's attack he is evading and the speed of the attack is concretely stated, such as being able to surpass the speed of sound, or light, or uses a basis in the Real World such as the speed of an athlete's punch. If the two fighters are equal, you should simply scale them to the stated speed of the attack, or off of other feats they perform.
Now onto the main thing.
Why "Magic attacks = Real thing" should not be used
"Magic Electricity"
Vulkin
The currently accepted "electricity" scaling comes from Vulkin’s attacks, which are scaled through Tsunderplane moving in tandem with while Frisk dodges them. Other than the issue I already pointed out with the calculation above, the attack just shouldn't be used as the actual speed of electricity. Vulkin refers to the attack as a "thunder" and is manually controlling its speed ("speed up"). This is also shown by the fact that the attack’s speed changes depending on Vulkin’s emotional state (as it is now way faster after he gets hugged). The attack's speed has no correlation to any real constant speed like the speed of electricity for it to be used and is actually determined by the user like a regular magic attack.
Mettaton
I've seen some people argue that since Mettaton has similar attacks, it validates this as real electricity due to him being a robot. This also does not work. We see that his "electricity attacks" accelerate as they further move and rotate which is just not realistic and how real electricity moves. But further more, the same type of attack is used by Alphys in the cutscene before the Asriel fight. We see that the attack stands still. Despite Mettaton using the core, it is very obvious that the attack is a type of magic that even Alphys can use, not actual electricity coming out of it.
Actual Realistic showings of electricity
There are way more realistic showings of how electricity actually looks and works in the verse, and it is nothing like the attacks that both Mettaton and Vulkin use during their fight.
- In the Tile Puzzle, we know that the yellow tiles are actual electric and electrocute Frisk with them even shocking you if you step on water connected to it. When Frisk steps on one of them in the Mettaton sequence we see that it completely immobilizes Frisk upon contact and makes them have to step back, Frisk can not "outrun" or just "take" this electricity. (Note that there is no reason as to why Mettaton would use higher voltage in the puzzle than in his fight if his electricity magic attacks were actually real electricity as he intended to kill you)
- In the Alphys VS Mettaton Quiz, you are given four options by each question. If you choose the incorrect one it's shown that actual electricity will shock you. This electricity straight up blitzes Frisk, slows down the soul's movements making it barely able to move alongside doing more damage than any of Metatton's or Vulkin's attacks. This is the same Frisk that is faster and unaffected by both of their attacks.
Conclusion: Both Mettaton and Vulkin's attacks shouldn't be the speed of electricity (556m/s) in any way. Making both the calcs and the line of scaling via electricity currently used, invalid.
"Sound"
This one is more simple, the currently accepted "sound-based" attack comes from Greater Dog’s "bark attacks". There is no evidence that the attack is actually sound/soundwaves, it is just assumed to be based purely on the fact that the attack comes from his mouth, which is just a random conclusion with 0 basis. Monsters in the game are consistently shown to shape magic into words like those, the conclusion is based on pure assumption. A better comparison would be Shyren, as she does the exact same thing, she makes magic musical note attacks from her singing coming out of her mouth. We have blatant visual confirmation in the post-credits concert, that these notes are not "sound speed" or anything like this and are even shown as moving at speeds comparable to nearby visual elements (such as Napstablook's spinning discs playing the song). There's also the fact that their movement is also inconsistent and not how real sound propagates.
Conclusion: Greater Dog's barks shouldn't be the speed of sound (343m/s) in any way. Making the calc and the line of scaling via sound currently used, invalid.
Conclusion
- The Electricity calculations are invalid via the "Evading Punches" rule and should be removed.
- Both the "Sound" and "Electricity" attack should not be taken as the speed of the real thing and should therefore be also deleted from the scaling.
- Low Tier characters should be scaled to Frisk's speed of walking alongside Papyrus. (7.14 m/s)
Characters such as Papyrus, Undyne or Mettaton are scaled to Papyrus running fast across his house. (16.92m/s)- Characters such as Papyrus, Undyne or Mettaton would scale to this new calculation of Undyne running to Papyrus' house as it got accepted. (60.65m/s)
- The fastest characters like Sans or Photoshop Flowey should scale to Frisk's doubled speed with Sea Tea which would be 2x over the previous. (121.3m/s)
It is rather obvious that the characters are not meant to be moving or attacking at high speeds but if someone wants proof of this,
Alongside the fact that I already showed that Frisk gets blitzed by actual real electricity, during Undyne's chase sequence, Frisk is able to move at speeds comparable to Undyne’s spears. Undyne is currently accepted as a fast character in-verse, obviously, and by extension, her attacks should also be at that level, especially when she is very much trying to catch you here.
Frisk's running/walking speed is able to keep up with these attacks while moving at visibly slow speeds. And if visuals aren't enough, during Metaton's acts, timers explicitly show that Frisk moves at normal human speeds (Just look at the timer counting down as they move), this happens more than once even. This means Frisk's (basically stated) regular human walking/running speeds are able to move at comparable speeds to Undyne's attacks, proving they are indeed not meant to be that fast.
Let's see how this goes.
Agree:
@Armorchompy (Comment)
@Agnaa (Comment)
@Mr. Bambu (Comment)
@Dalesean027 (Comment)
@Imaginym (Comment)
Neutral:
Disagree:
@SomebodyData (Comment)
@DarkDragonMedeus (Only with Sound, Comment)
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