Are Aeons getting kicked out of Tier 1? (Staff Version)

SuperNova55555 · Apr 7, 2026

(Permission granted by Rainaaaaaa)

So. Following that horrid thread (7 pages in 12 hours), I think it's pretty much a given that this should be redone in a more civil fashion.

As a preface, I'll genuinely be using similar arguments as the last thread, but I'll also be adding another section titled "What I didn't say" to every point, since it seemed like I was getting strawmanned just a tad bit too much to my liking. And please, read that section before addressing any of the points.

Alright, let's begin:

What is already accepted?

As per this accepted thread, there are 2 conclusions derived from it:

The Physical World is inherently 4-dimensional. And in respect to Bubble Worlds, it can possess up to 7 compactified extra dimensions. So it will always be Tier 2 in every case.
The Sea of Quanta and Imaginary Tree (Imaginary Space) are both 11-dimensional constructs, scaling to High 1-C.

So for the sake of this topic, I believe these points should be taken as fact before committing to any further judgment. Otherwise, this thread will go off-rails again. If you for some reason still disagree with the above: please make another thread.

Why do Aeons not scale to High 1-C?

The main issue here is the lack of feats.

To begin, please consult this scan:

^ Irontomb here, and additionally, Aeons like Fuli scale to the Physical World. Explicitly so. In fact, the statement is so blatant that in the same scan it reifies “Universe” as referring to that same Physical Plane. The Physical Plane, which mind you, is relegated to Tier 2.

And when Irontomb actually destroys the Universe, we are told:

Basically, they escaped Irontomb by going into Path Space (non-corporeal) and state that Irontomb will only affect the “Real” (Physical) Space-Time. This reifies that same statement twice.

So at the very least, Irontomb's attack is Tier 2. And both Fuli's and Nous' functions work in the same exact context, meaning that they are both Tier 2 as well. (For example, as seen, Fuli only reverts the destruction of the physical universe after it's end.)

What I didn't say:

I am not saying that Aeons' are somehow 4-dimensional.

That's not being implied anywhere. A character can be higher-dimensional and not scale to the entirety of it's dimension. This is the reason why not all 3D beings like humans are High 3-A, for example.

Aeons can retain their 11-dimensionality, but they lack the feats of affecting an infinite 11-dimensional plane. Keyword: infinite. Additionally, they can also exist in Path Space and not scale to it's entirety. That's obvious, otherwise even Belobog TB would be High 1-C, which is utterly ridiculous.

So to prove that they are High 1-C in power, you would have to show the following:

A feat or statement that says that an Aeon can affect the entirety of Path or Imaginary Space.

Issues with the Imaginary Tree.

In HSR, the Imaginary Tree is colloquially defined as such:

The Imaginary Tree is a theory of the universe widely accepted by the modern scientific community.

Describing the universe's structure as a "tree" may be an attitude that views the Imaginary Tree as a life form.

The keyword here is "Universe", or 宇宙 (yǔzhòu). Because for HSR, the Imaginary Tree or the "Tree of Existence", is literally the Universe itself.

This, in fact, stands in contrast with Hi3 where the Imaginary Tree is merely another domain that you require the Second Key to open a portal to.

So, as seen in the scans above, "Imaginary Space" is the "membrane" of the "Imaginary Tree" and you can open a portal to the Tree directly and it can even "manifest" itself in physical reality. So by itself, it doesn't even exist in Real Space, which also contradicts HSR.

To hammer in this point, I present to you these three statements:
(1)

(2)

(3)

Then, here are what they refer to:
(1)

(2)

(3)

As you can see: the functions of Imaginary Space and the Tree are identical, and in fact they are both the origin of the universe, thus they are nearly identical in status and one cannot be reduced below the other.

To reify this, I'll present additional evidence:

Nagamitsu: Your current location is still under the influence of the Sea of Quanta. If you go any further, you’ll be completely within the realm of the Imaginary Tree.

Imaginary Space is called the "realm" of the Imaginary Tree, alongside (as shown above) it being called it's "membrane". Meaning, they are functionally identical in status, and in fact exist explicitly beyond the physical world.

So yea, it is not merely a "universe" you can "travel" along:

Akivili left the isolated world of Pegana and continued to expand the unknown edges of the universe, trying to find an endpoint of the Tree of Existence. Unfortunately, Akivili's destiny was abruptly ended due to an accident.

This is why also for Nanook, the destruction of Paths and the Universe is in reference to the material world:

"If the increase of entropy is a fundamental law of the universe, then the heat death would be the inescapable destiny of the material world. So, why is it that we bother to struggle to survive? Expansion, fusion, and then annihilation. If we wish to welcome the new, then we must first embrace the end."

— From a scientist just before pressing the button for nuclear detonation, 2152 AE
The birth of the universe is a mistake. If civilization is a cancer emerging quietly from the boundless stars, then war is the only common language known to all intelligent life.
To correct this mistake and to clean up this tainted universe, Nanook became the avatar of entropy and ascended to godhood while denying all gods.
Destruction is not a process, but the outcome. On the path THEY promised, all Paths and Aeons will terminate in the heat death of the universe.

What I didn't say:

I am not saying that the Imaginary Tree is the Physical Realm every time, instead, I am saying:

In Hi3, the Imaginary Tree is likened to Imaginary Space itself (i.e the part outside the Proper World)
In HSR, the Imaginary Tree is likened to Real Space (i.e the Proper World), whereas the part outside of it is just Path Space and contextually is not used in reference to Path Space (like with Herta's statements).

Thus, most "Universe" statements are always referring to the Physical World rather than anything additional. For High 1-C, you will need to destroy the higher-dimensional "membrane" outside of the Universe.

Regarding the exact placement within Tier 2.

I wish to, first of all, present Herta's and Yao Guang's statements.

What they relegate is the following:

The future in the Tree is determined by quantum collapse, which happens through observation and the "pruning of branches".
The totality of branches and leaves make up the present.
Quantum collapse happens both locally (in a certain Leaf World) through observing of "limited possibilities", but it also happens universally by observing all "infinite possibilities". The latter is done by Nous and the former by Yao Guang. Which mind you, Yao Guang was monikered the "Nous of Planarcadia" (Planarcadia being a Leaf World) for accomplishing this. Which ought to mean that even individual lesser Worlds holds additional branches their timeline can be taken in.

This is important because it contradicts all of these statements in Hi3, since HSR posits that the additional branches are collapsed to determine a future, whereas in Hi3, they explicitly exist and are called "alive":

Additionally, it also says that the "branches and leaves" are what constitute the "present", which directly contradicts Otto creating an entirely new branch (and timeline) in the past.

Which leads us to a conclusion: in HSR, the Universe is implied to be Low 2-C, but in Hi3, the Universe is implied to be 2-A.

What I didn't say:

I did not say that the Imaginary Tree has a singular branch. I think the opposite: Each individual "world" possesses many branches it can branch into. What Nous does is prune the additional branches from each World leaving a singular branch for every single World in the Universe to move into. This then leads to a multiplicity of branches universally, but only 1 branch locally (so the Universe has multiple branches, but the Leaf Worlds only 1).

Counter-arguments.

The issue is that not only does HSR contradict Hi3, but it also contradicts itself:
(1)

(2)

(3)
(4)

^ Basically, it also posits the same parallel universes and leaves.

Mind you, statement (4) happens in the same patch as the Yao Guang statement, and scan (2) happens the patch after that. (Both of those reference the same thing, as even Dollie has a parallel version of herself like Trailblazer does).

Additionally there's this:

The Aeon that presides over the Path of Nihility. THEIR existence is a mystery.
IX doesn't interact with the other Aeons. THEY believe that the ultimate fate of the multiverse is nothingness, and therefore, worthless.

“Multiverse” here uses 多宇宙 (duō yǔzhòu) which literally means “many universes” with 宇宙 (yǔzhòu) being the term generally used for the Universe or Cosmos itself. Which functionally implies that it is talking about multiple entire universes.

Now. Hoyoverse terminology is bad. Like really bad. For example, in places like Durandal’s VN, it uses both 宇宙 (yǔzhòu), the term used for Universe in HSR, and 世界 (shìjiè), which is the term used for Leaves in HSR, to refer to the same Bubble Worlds (which are small Space-Times that do not even qualify for Low 2-C):

Maybe this can be a feat for IX specifically or whatever idk. It's really vague and never elaborated. (Also this feat of Durandal should be nuked, as Bubble Worlds can be any size, from as small as a Tree like the Seed of Sumeru, up to a Universe. Likely around Tier 4, since we do see the Sun inside the Bubble World and Otto did mention in the VN that you could find a Bubble World the size of the Solar System, so it makes very little narrative sense for it to be referring to something else. Since the goal originally was just to find a replica of earth.)

But what this whole section culminates in is basically this:
As it stands, there are issues in how the cosmology is organized and a lot of stuff is unclear. Personally, I am not really against 2-A, even if some of the feats (Nous via Wave Function Collapse) wouldn't imply that. And generally, because it's so vague and extremely contradicted (even in the same patch they are released), I believe it's apt to momentarily ignore it.

In the worst-case scenario, they would just fall down to 2-C, because IT would still at the very least possess an additional 93 billion light-year wide Universe in the form of Genshin Impact:

(This is Otto observing Dvalin via the Second Key, which allows one to see parallel worlds in the Imaginary Tree).

Tl;dr: All Aeonic feats refer to the 4-dimensional physical realm, which can contain up to infinite parallel worlds, so it is at best at the highest grade of Tier 2.

Staff Votes:
Planck69 (2-A)
Vietthai96 (2-A, possibly High 1-C)
Reiner04 (2-A, possibly High 1-C)

Weaver261 · Apr 8, 2026

Permission Granted By @Reiner04

SuperNova55555 said:
That's not being implied anywhere. A character can be higher-dimensional and not scale to the entirety of it's dimension. This is the reason why not all 3D beings like humans are High 3-A, for example.

Aeons can retain their 11-dimensionality, but they lack the feats of affecting an infinite 11-dimensional plane. Keyword: infinite. Additionally, they can also exist in Path Space and not scale to it's entirety.

Aeons don't lack the feats of affecting H1-C Imaginary Tree.
HooH is fused with the tree's logic.

The chain of karma that mortals obsess over is nothing but a rough approximation of the complicated topology behind all things — HooH dissolved THEIR will into the web of logic behind the universe's movement, maintaining the balance and stability of all things in perpetuity.
- HooH Data Bank Description

Ena sepearted reality and imaginary. Thus affecting both real space and imaginary space as a whole.

1:1 Since the Dusk War, the heaven has been empty and the earth chaotic.
1:2 ██ tore open the void, and the light of thought shone into the material world.
1:3 Yet mortals are unable to perceive the illusion of reality.
1:4 To guide Heaven, Earth, and all things toward what can be known, the Supreme One of “Order” was born.
1:5 THEY set the tone for all things, calling space-time the staff of a score, and established the law of twelve graded intervals.
1:6 Reality and imagination were thus distinguished, and so things came to be.
1:7 All things are now categorized into both the real and the unreal. This was the first day.
- Lost property readable

"light of thought" here is referring to Imaginary since once you tore open the void, imaginary will leak into the universe. This is also consistent with Hi3 Project Stigma where reality is fused into imaginary space.

[†5] Based on historical records, the Reignbow's arrow smashed into the Ambrosial Arbor, penetrated the almighty beast, and severed the connection between the Luofu and Muldrasil. This ripped open a fissure into the void, and a monstrous wave of imaginary force spewed forth from it. This line describes that event.
- Annotations from "Ode to Reignbow Path"

Einstein: Project STIGMA will merge reality and Imaginary space, presumably to synchronise the humans defined by them with Finality forcefully.

Basically after dusk war, imaginary leaked into reality and they are merged. Ena was born to seperate the two. This is consistent with the explanation of Imaginary space in Hi3 where it explains real space can be ordered but imaginary space isn't. The text spoke about how the heaven and earth aka Universe was chaotic.

IX literally exists beyond the tree and the tree goes eternal recurrence under THEIR shadow. This eternal recurrence is talking about how universe will be ended by finality and the new universe being born through remembrance. Since remembrance recreate not only the real space part of the universe as well as finality which imply remembrance recreate path space and imaginary space too. Even IX the nihility who exist outside of the tree is affected by finality ending the universe means finality isn't just destruction of the material world but as well as the end of everything including path space.

Only that pitch-black great sun knows the answer, yet THEY remain silent, never speaking.
Because everything that had happened will one day regress to the end, and everything that had ended is guaranteed to happen again. The universe undergoes an eternal recurrence under THEIR shadow, and Izumo is nothing more than the footnote for an ellipsis.
- Izumo's Magatsu no Morokami

Is Finality the end of everything?
Elegy: No. Finality causes amber to rupture, immortality to wither, music to mute, light arrows to dim, the Dark Sun to be reduced to ashes, and the Tavern to be covered in dust. Even Destruction itself cannot be spared from destruction.
Elegy: Yet, Finality isn't the end of everything. All things will originate from there and move on to the next Finality.
- Grim Film of Finality

Termius aka Finality can end the tree. Fuli aka Remembrance can recreate the whole tree including next finality.
Other aeons also should scale to these aeons.

SuperNova55555 said:
A feat or statement that says that an Aeon can affect the entirety of Path or Imaginary Space.

This is not needed as per the standard. The standard should only require you to affect significantly. Aeons outright affect the entire H1-C tree or parts of it as per proofs above.

SuperNova55555 said:
The keyword here is "Universe", or 宇宙 (yǔzhòu). Because for HSR, the Imaginary Tree or the "Tree of Existence", is literally the Universe itself.

This, in fact, stands in contrast with Hi3 where the Imaginary Tree is merely another domain that you require the Second Key to open a portal to.

So, as seen in the scans above, "Imaginary Space" is the "membrane" of the "Imaginary Tree" and you can open a portal to the Tree directly and it can even "manifest" itself in physical reality. So by itself, it doesn't even exist in Real Space, which also contradicts HSR.

SuperNova55555 said:
Imaginary Space is called the "realm" of the Imaginary Tree, alongside (as shown above) it being called it's "membrane". Meaning, they are functionally identical in status, and in fact exist explicitly beyond the physical world.

So yea, it is not merely a "universe" you can "travel" along:

Hi3 also stated that Imaginary tree isn't just a domain like OP claimed but also a multiverse model and a medium that carries parallel worlds just like how HSR described it. Even though OP claimed that Hi3 tree is incosistent with HSR tree, it's proving otherwise.

So, affecting the tree is the same as affecting H1-C Imaginary space. Just because HSR story hasn't show or mention Imaginary space yet, doesn't mean it doesn't exist when it comes to discussing about The Tree.

SuperNova55555 said:
Additionally, it also says that the "branches and leaves" are what constitute the "present", which directly contradicts Otto creating an entirely new branch (and timeline) in the past.

Which leads us to a conclusion: in HSR, the Universe is implied to be Low 2-C, but in Hi3, the Universe is implied to be 2-A.

Nonetheless, in HSR, there're infinite space times in the universe and Physical Universe will be 2-A by standard anyway.

2-A: Multiverse level+
Characters or objects that can significantly affect, create and/or destroy a countably infinite number of separate space-time continuums.

SuperNova55555 said:
(which are small Space-Times that do not even qualify for Low 2-C):

This is the standard to qualify as proper space time continnum.

In order for something to qualify as a proper space-time continuum in regard to some feat usually one of two following two criteria should be met:

It is explicitly stated to be a "Space-time continuum" or something equivalent.

It fulfills the standards for being a universe-sized realm (see the first section of this page) and all of its time is also involved in its feat. I.e. the structure involved in the feat is the timeline of an entire universe.

1. It's explicitly stated to be "space time"

The Imaginary Tree is a theory of the universe widely accepted by the modern scientific community.
This theory describes the various worlds existing in different space-time as a tree-like structure.
- Data Bank

2. As per universe sized realm guideline, these space times are stated to be timelines and parallel worlds.
Thus space times in the tree meet the condition to qualify as Low 2-C and the tree containing infinite amount of them would 2-A. Aeons affecting the tree on physical plane would be 2-A and affecting the whole tree including path space will be H1-C.

I disgree FRA

SuperNova55555 · Apr 8, 2026

Weaver261 said:
Aeons don't lack the feats of affecting H1-C Imaginary Tree.
HooH is fused with the tree's logic.

To begin:

My claim:

SuperNova55555 said:
A feat or statement that says that an Aeon can affect the entirety of Path or Imaginary Space.

Then, your claim:

Weaver261 said:
Aeons don't lack the feats of affecting H1-C Imaginary Tree.
HooH is fused with the tree's logic.

So I’m just gonna assume that:

1) I’m being strawmanned here

and

2) You’re committing an enthymeme

There is, in fact, a reason why I specified the usage of “Path” or “Imaginary” Space, because the entire section after that is dedicated to argue that “Universe” should not be relegated to both the Proper World and the Imaginary Space.

In fact, the term itself is always used to refer to the Proper World, especially in Hi3. It’s just that HSR sometimes uses it interchangeably with the Tree itself.

So when you say that “there’s a feat of it affecting the Tree”—that’s not what I’m asking for at all. Because in general, especially with the Irontomb-adjacent statements, it is explicitly talking about the physical world.

And as per 2), let’s investigate the particular verbiage.

So, the scan in particular says “web of logic behind the universe's movement”, whereas you both interpret it as it talking about the “High 1-C Imaginary Tree” and the “Tree’s Logic”, to which I assume you’re skipping a few steps because those are not the same terms at all.

To clarify, I’m not particularly against the Tree being understood as the Universe in an HSR context, but I’m against it being the same as the Hi3 one.

Especially when the scan specifies “Universe”; and this is very important, because there’s a reason you didn’t add any additional context to this scan. Because you would know that there’s not a single sentence within the game that implies the Web of Logic extends to anything beyond the Proper World.

But whatever, I’ll do the job you:

The Arbitrators admired HooH's ideas, praising THEIR eternal focus and patience. But universal laws have no control over time and space, and mortals can only pursue the beauty of Equilibrium in a secular world by the elimination of radical extremes: beauty and ugliness, joy and sorrow, good and evil, love and hatred — countless opposing concepts were created and interpreted to satisfy the Arbitrators' obsession with a zero-sum universe.

But the rules of mortals are always riddled with flaws. Out of desperation, the Arbitrators were constantly forced over the inexorable passage of time to patch up past fallacies and mistakes, forever shifting the hopes of Equilibrium onto the next "patch." HooH watches on in silence, knowing that the restoration of order could never be shaken in the slightest by such vulgar mortal drama.

^ Particularly relevant here is the usage of Space and Time, because the functions of HooH’s Web is the ordering of imbalance across the movement of the timeline itself, up until the next “patch”.

I.e, it refers to the movement and of the Universe’s physical constituents.

Thus, it is merely the thing that inter-relates the various parts of the physical Universe:

All things are connected. Those who cannot see these connections are called Slumberersmortals, while Arbitrators can intervene in these connections to restore the Equilibrium.

(Anomaly Arbitration NPC^)

Since this would not be how time functions within Path Space, since by time not flowing, the "patch" system cannot work:

I mean, in all honesty, I could ask you a lot of stuff:

How does the Web of Logic relate to Imaginary Space? Is it born from it? Located in it?
What part of Imaginary Space does it constitute?
Is there proof it envelops anything beyond the Physical World?
As per 3), how do we know the functions of the Web is scalable at all, since it certainly isn’t any proper AP?

Etc etc. And certainly I’d be dammed to find a single thing in the game that would answer these.

Weaver261 said:
Ena sepearted reality and imaginary. Thus affecting both real space and imaginary space as a whole.

This is the same line of argumentation as saying that Welt scales to the entirety of SoQ for creating a labyrinth between it and Earth. I.e “separating” it. I don’t have to explain why this is stupid.

Weaver261 said:
Basically after dusk war, imaginary leaked into reality and they are merged. Ena was born to seperate the two. This is consistent with the explanation of Imaginary space in Hi3 where it explains real space can be ordered but imaginary space isn't. The text spoke about how the heaven and earth aka Universe was chaotic.

So for this entire section, you're making a very weird assumption: the assumption that "tearing open the void" here explicitly means affecting the entirety of Imaginary Space, which is wholly uncalled for, nor is it implied.

Your scans merely say that Imaginary Energy started leaking into the (mind you) pre-existing Universe, which is already 4-dimensional at this point. After the Universe was rendered chaotic as a virtue of it leaking into it, Ena started ordering it again.

The issue here now is that you don't have proof that the entire material world ever fully merged with Imaginary Space. That's just an assumption you're making and a highly inconsistent one. I mean, how would the humans still be capable of existing then, if even the very scan makes it apparent they can't survive the influx of energy? Very curious.

It seems to me to be a very similar case to the Second Key here:

Does the Second Key here have High 1-C AP? If you argue range, I'm totally fine with that. But AP? Very weird. I mean you even linked the Sirin scans: is Sirin also High 1-C? The same mf jobbing to a nuke lol?

Just some thoughts, really.

Weaver261 said:
IX literally exists beyond the tree and the tree goes eternal recurrence under THEIR shadow. This eternal recurrence is talking about how universe will be ended by finality and the new universe being born through remembrance. Since remembrance recreate not only the real space part of the universe as well as finality which imply remembrance recreate path space and imaginary space too. Even IX the nihility who exist outside of the tree is affected by finality ending the universe means finality isn't just destruction of the material world but as well as the end of everything including path space.

A whole load of assumptions here. Which one again misconflates the usage of "Universe" here. And most importantly, not only does Fuli SPECIFICALLY only remake the physical universe, but there's a very clear reason for that: Path Space doesn't have time.

Finality and all of that? Yea, it doesn't affect Path Space. I'd be dammed to find a single statement saying Terminus reverts Path Space or whatever, and not immediately contradict all of Cyrene's statements as well. I mean there's a reason a large majority of your post is just conjecture on top of conjecture.

Also, we have no idea how Finality affects Nihility or in what way. You're vaguescaling again.

Weaver261 said:
Hi3 also stated that Imaginary tree isn't just a domain like OP claimed but also a multiverse model and a medium that carries parallel worlds just like how HSR described it. Even though OP claimed that Hi3 tree is incosistent with HSR tree, it's proving otherwise.

Right... because the Imaginary Tree is defined as a higher-dimensional membrane. Obviously it would "hold" the lower-dimensional Universes. That's pretty obvious lol.

But it's not the Universe itself. That would be ridiculous. Even your very scan references SoQ. It would almost be like saying that SoQ is the Bubble Universes or whatever, which is, once again, a ridiculous thing to say.

I mean, I'd be dammed to find Otto say that the "Universe" itself started out as a seed and then grew into the Tree. When we KNOW the Universe is derived from the Tree, not that it is the Tree itself.

Weaver261 said:
This is the standard to qualify as proper space time continnum.

I am talking about Bubble Worlds there.

And two:

It fulfills the standards for being a universe-sized realm (see the first section of this page) and all of its time is also involved in its feat. I.e. the structure involved in the feat is the timeline of an entire universe.

^You seemed to be particularly ignoring this for some odd reason. It has to be universe-sized. But we know Leaves are generally Star Clusters and as for Bubble Worlds, they can be this small:

^ To the point you can crack the Bubble Worlds border by cracking the sky above a medium-sized tree.

The actual reason why the Tree and SoQ contain a 2-A amount of physical space is that we know that both Leaves and Bubble Worlds can grow to be as large as a universe. For SoQ, we are straight-up told this, whilst for IT, we use the Genshin Universe as a precedent.

And so, with an infinite amount of worlds, it seems expected that a 93 billion light-year wide world would be repeated infinitely (i.e 2-A). If it weren't the case that they could grow to universal size (i.e we didn't have genshin), then even an infinite amount of Leaves would be Low 2-C.

That should be all. Good try tho.

Weaver261 · Apr 8, 2026

I am not sure if I am allowed to post more than one by permission from @Reiner04 but I am seeing a lot of wrong interpretations of my words and also wrong assumptions that I need to prove them otherwise.
Before going to aeons feat, I need to clarify about the tree.

SuperNova55555 said:
Right... because the Imaginary Tree is defined as a higher-dimensional membrane. Obviously it would "hold" the lower-dimensional Universes. That's pretty obvious lol.

It isn't. Otto said that Imaginary space is the membrane of the tree. Imaginary tree being membrane of the tree would be ridiculous.

SuperNova55555 said:
But it's not the Universe itself. That would be ridiculous. Even your very scan references SoQ. It would almost be like saying that SoQ is the Bubble Universes or whatever, which is, once again, a ridiculous thing to say.

According to Otto, The universe contains not just the imaginary tree but as well as 11D Sea of Quanta. So all mentions of Aeons affecting the universe should apply to both the tree and the sea. Affecting the universe is also affecting the sea in this case and the sea is 11D H1-C. So, aeons will be H1-C regardless.

"The Tree and Sea are alone in the Universe. Thus began their never-ending rivalry."

SuperNova55555 said:
I mean, I'd be dammed to find Otto say that the "Universe" itself started out as a seed and then grew into the Tree. When we KNOW the Universe is derived from the Tree, not that it is the Tree itself.

Although HI3 outright didn't say universe began as a seed, it's very obviously implied and consistent with description the origin of the tree in HSR. Also Herta's scan is just an analogy so that Cyrene can understand and it doesn't necessarily mean its factual origin is a seed.

"The Tree has drunk from the Sea and endured an asamkhya of time and grown a nayuta of branches, and leaves."

A young shoot sprouted from the cracks of primordial chaos. Nurtured by time for billions of years, it grew into a huge, unrivaled tree.

SuperNova55555 said:
Also, we have no idea how Finality affects Nihility or in what way. You're vaguescaling again.

Well, I think you missed this part. Dark sun here referring to IX nihility. IX literally exists outside the imaginary tree and finality still ends IX.

Elegy: No. Finality causes amber to rupture, immortality to wither, music to mute, light arrows to dim, the Dark Sun to be reduced to ashes, and the Tavern to be covered in dust. Even Destruction itself cannot be spared from destruction.

SuperNova55555 said:
I mean, in all honesty, I could ask you a lot of stuff:

I admit that I can't answer these with current scans we have.

SuperNova55555 said:
The issue here now is that you don't have proof that the entire material world ever fully merged with Imaginary Space. That's just an assumption you're making and a highly inconsistent one. I mean, how would the humans still be capable of existing then, if even the very scan makes it apparent they can't survive the influx of energy? Very curious.

If you are curious, I will have to answer. Yes, humans can still exist during the transition. It's not an instant merging but over time over a lot of steps. Details are described in project stigma.

Theresa: More importantly… if you’re really the will of the Kaslana’s Stigmata, please tell me how I can save everyone from the ongoing Project STIGMA.
Will of Stigmata: Until now, not one person on Earth has lost their life due to Project STIGMA.
Will of Stigmata: Both, actually. As I said, until now, not one person on Earth has lost their life due to Project STIGMA.
Will of Stigmata: That’s because at the end of this project, realised Stigmata will replace humans, and dreamified humans will become one with the past Stigmata space.

SuperNova55555 said:
So for this entire section, you're making a very weird assumption: the assumption that "tearing open the void" here explicitly means affecting the entirety of Imaginary Space, which is wholly uncalled for, nor is it implied

The feat isn't about tearing open the void but rather seperating the merging real space and imaginary space.

SuperNova55555 said:
t seems to me to be a very similar case to the Second Key here:

Yes, It's basically an imaginary dimensional bleed. When it happens, the physical world will be assimilated into imaginary space. So Ena's order can order the unordered imaginary space and distinguish the two. Ena being capable of ordering the unordered imaginary space is the same as affecting the chaotic imaginary space significantly.

Durandal: …An Imaginary Dimensional bleed? That’s when our real world becomes corrupted by singularities and faces assimilation into Imaginary Space…

SuperNova55555 said:
Does the Second Key here have High 1-C AP? If you argue range, I'm totally fine with that. But AP? Very weird. I mean you even linked the Sirin scans: is Sirin also High 1-C? The same mf jobbing to a nuke lol?

You don't need the same durability to get H1-C AP. Not only Void Herrscher is explitcitly stated to have complete mastery over Imaginary space, herrschers are stated the ability to control higher dimensional space.

SuperNova55555 said:
You seemed to be particularly ignoring this for some odd reason. It has to be universe-sized. But we know Leaves are generally Star Clusters and as for Bubble Worlds, they can be this small:

Bubble worlds shouldn't be in this conversation since we are discussing about the tree. The guideline for universe sized realm doesn't need the world itself to be observeable universe size.

These are notes that the worlds are indeed universes; while they don't need all of these, at least one of them should indicate this.

One of the condition is this

If they're flat out stated to be entire timelines, then they are indeed alternate universes.

That's why I proved that these space times are alternate universes and it's not like all space times in the universe strictly follows star system size. We have genshin which has observable universe size. Since there're infinite amount of variation in size, it's okay to assume there're infinite amount of observable universe size space times too.

One of the main proof that Aeons exist in Imaginary Space is that Terminus traveling Time backward. According to nagamitsu, if you are in the imaginary tree, you can travel time just as you travel through a spatial dimension. Terminus traveling backward Time is a proof of this.

Why Aeons should scale to the tree? Imaginary tree is explicitly stated to be a higher dimensional realm by Otto and he compared it to 11D SoQ.
Aeons are also explitcitly stated to be higher dimensional beings. There's literally no other higher dimensional realms except the tree and the sea. Aeons being higher dimensional beings mean they lives in imaginary space/tree. As above Terminus proof, terminus shows the same trait of imaginary tree/space.

Also additional proofs
Otto became part of imaginary space and tree but was under the influence of the tree and unable to do much although getting infinite imaginary energy.
Aeons also control imaginary energy according to their paths yet unable to do more than their path due the primum mobile. This mean aeons are also part of the tree and the space.

I am open to indexing Aeons as H1-C physically and 2-A AP for most aeons and H1-C AP for Ena and such.
Edited - on second thoughts, aeons attack potency still should be H1-C but most of them won't perform such feats due to being bind by their paths. But still should scale to each other

SuperNova55555 · Apr 8, 2026

Weaver261 said:
It isn't. Otto said that Imaginary space is the membrane of the tree. Imaginary tree being membrane of the tree would be ridiculous.

Imaginary Space is the realm of the IT, whose functions are nearly identical. Using them interchangeably isn't stretching it.

Weaver261 said:
According to Otto, The universe contains not just the imaginary tree but as well as 11D Sea of Quanta. So all mentions of Aeons affecting the universe should apply to both the tree and the sea. Affecting the universe is also affecting the sea in this case and the sea is 11D H1-C. So, aeons will be H1-C regardless.

No, you're just misconflating the colloquial usage of "universe". In HSR, we are told it's the physical realm explicitly. Otherwise we might as well say Bubble Worlds are universes themselves, since they use the same terminology. All that matters is the context behind it, which relates to Real Space in HSR. That's like the main part of my argument here.

Weaver261 said:
Although HI3 outright didn't say universe began as a seed, it's very obviously implied and consistent with description the origin of the tree in HSR. Also Herta's scan is just an analogy so that Cyrene can understand and it doesn't necessarily mean its factual origin is a seed.

The Tree started as a seed. But did the Universe do that? Because the scans you show don't say that. They mention the Tree, which I'm tentatively fine with. It just seems like you misunderstand the point I'm contending here.

Weaver261 said:
Well, I think you missed this part. Dark sun here referring to IX nihility. IX literally exists outside the imaginary tree and finality still ends IX.

I know what the Dark Sun is. I'm saying do you even know how that statement translates into lore?

the Dark Sun to be reduced to ashes

^Do you even know what this actually means? You imply "death" but in what sense? It's never elaborated on. At all. We genuinely know jack about IX.

Weaver261 said:
If you are curious, I will have to answer. Yes, humans can still exist during the transition. It's not an instant merging but over time over a lot of steps. Details are described in project stigma.

I'm talking about the end of the transition. If humans still exist, it means they haven't been assimilated fully, ergo Real Space isn't indistinguishable from Imaginary Space at the time Ena ascended.

Weaver261 said:
The feat isn't about tearing open the void but rather seperating the merging real space and imaginary space.

Which is done by tearing open into Imaginary Space and allowing the Imaginary Energy to leak into it...

Weaver261 said:
Yes, It's basically an imaginary dimensional bleed. When it happens, the physical world will be assimilated into imaginary space. So Ena's order can order the unordered imaginary space and distinguish the two. Ena being capable of ordering the unordered imaginary space is the same as affecting the chaotic imaginary space significantly.

Which part of this is "affecting the entirety of Imaginary Space"? Which mind you, this feat is still done before it was fully assimilated. This is again just good hax. You'd need to prove Real Space was assimilated and fused with Imaginary Space in it's entirety for the feat to scale.

Weaver261 said:
You don't need the same durability to get H1-C AP.

And I thought we had UES here. Interesting.

Not that it matters much, because you'd need to prove Sirin controls the entire domain of IT for her to be High 1-C.

Weaver261 said:
Bubble worlds shouldn't be in this conversation since we are discussing about the tree. The guideline for universe sized realm doesn't need the world itself to be observeable universe size.

Because they were used as a reference to terminology issues and as a defeater to Dudu's scaling.

If they're flat out stated to be entire timelines, then they are indeed alternate universes.

^ This is when they are timelines to the general universe. But Hoyo is special in that the "universes" themselves are solar systems and consequently the timelines as well.

Weaver261 said:
One of the main proof that Aeons exist in Imaginary Space is that Terminus traveling Time backward. According to nagamitsu, if you are in the imaginary tree, you can travel time just as you travel through a spatial dimension. Terminus traveling backward Time is a proof of this.

No?????

I mean, first of all, different Imaginary Spaces have different functions. Path Space's time is stopped for example.

And secondly, that's just not how it works. You know we have Finality powers ourselves right??

We literally use them to rewind time and it all happens in the universe, specifically inside of Penacony. Is Penacony Imaginary Space?? Lol?

The reductio to this is also that we assume that Path Space is ontically superior to Imaginary Space which is absurd.

Weaver261 said:
Why Aeons should scale to the tree? Imaginary tree is explicitly stated to be a higher dimensional realm by Otto and he compared it to 11D SoQ.
Aeons are also explitcitly stated to be higher dimensional beings. There's literally no other higher dimensional realms except the tree and the sea. Aeons being higher dimensional beings mean they lives in imaginary space/tree. As above Terminus proof, terminus shows the same trait of imaginary tree/space.

The Universe is 93 billion light years wide spatially, so 3-A
I am a 3-dimensional human
The universe is spatially 3-dimensional
Thus, I scale to 3-A

Weaver261 said:
Otto became part of imaginary space and tree but was under the influence of the tree and unable to do much although getting infinite imaginary energy.
Aeons also control imaginary energy according to their paths yet unable to do more than their path due the primum mobile. This mean aeons are also part of the tree and the space.

I mean, first of all, this is just more headcanon.

Secondly, part of the IT =/= entirety of the IT. I don't mind them being capable of existing inside of Imaginary Space, I just don't believe they scale to it's entirety.

Mbpoops · Apr 8, 2026

Weaver261 said:
I am not sure if I am allowed to post more than one by permission from @Reiner04 but I am seeing a lot of wrong interpretations of my words and also wrong assumptions that I need to prove them otherwise.
Before going to aeons feat, I need to clarify about the tree.

It isn't. Otto said that Imaginary space is the membrane of the tree. Imaginary tree being membrane of the tree would be ridiculous.

as pointed out, they are used interchangeably

Weaver261 said:
According to Otto, The universe contains not just the imaginary tree but as well as 11D Sea of Quanta. So all mentions of Aeons affecting the universe should apply to both the tree and the sea. Affecting the universe is also affecting the sea in this case and the sea is 11D H1-C. So, aeons will be H1-C regardless.

this right here is the main reason i want to respond. you're terribly misconflating the word "universe" here. we have already established that the universe is 4D while the tree and sea are 11D so the universe cannot contain the sea or tree thats ridiculous this is actually they reedify that the sea and tree do NOT exist in ANY universe and this is one the most annoying things i see when looking at any of the hsr profiles. the scan you sent is literally just otto making a metaphorical statement to further emphosize the tree and sea's rivalry not that they are contained by the 4D universe it should honestly be removed after this crt because we KNOW destroying the hsr universe doesnt affect the higher dimensional spaces or the non-corpeal parts (pathspace) as shown in the op.

Weaver261 said:
Although HI3 outright didn't say universe began as a seed, it's very obviously implied and consistent with description the origin of the tree in HSR. Also Herta's scan is just an analogy so that Cyrene can understand and it doesn't necessarily mean its factual origin is a seed.

Well, I think you missed this part. Dark sun here referring to IX nihility. IX literally exists outside the imaginary tree and finality still ends IX.

the dark sun can mean anything. Shuhu's dark sun could just be a random black hole hell you could even say it's ashveil's shadows because its hinted at that he killed shuhu with his shadow, are we gonna say all black holes are manifestations of IX and exist outside the tree? welt and ana upscale i guess

Weaver261 said:
You don't need the same durability to get H1-C AP. Not only Void Herrscher is explitcitly stated to have complete mastery over Imaginary space, herrschers are stated the ability to control higher dimensional space.

U.E.S
this is just range and/or dimensional hax otherwise

Weaver261 said:
One of the main proof that Aeons exist in Imaginary Space is that Terminus traveling Time backward. According to nagamitsu, if you are in the imaginary tree, you can travel time just as you travel through a spatial dimension. Terminus traveling backward Time is a proof of this.

her whole anaology was just to say that beings outside 4 dimensional spacetime (real space) can go back to certain points in time because they arent bound by the flow of time. terminus going backwards in time could genuienly just be his own physiology we dont know much about it at all.

Weaver261 said:
Why Aeons should scale to the tree? Imaginary tree is explicitly stated to be a higher dimensional realm by Otto and he compared it to 11D SoQ.
Aeons are also explitcitly stated to be higher dimensional beings. There's literally no other higher dimensional realms except the tree and the sea. Aeons being higher dimensional beings mean they lives in imaginary space/tree. As above Terminus proof, terminus shows the same trait of imaginary tree/space.

again you'd need proof of them affecting the entire tree, imaginary space, etcetc because theres unironically better arguments for ryusuke and otto than aeons to scale to the cosmology yet they dont.

Weaver261 said:
Also additional proofs
Otto became part of imaginary space and tree but was under the influence of the tree and unable to do much although getting infinite imaginary energy.
Aeons also control imaginary energy according to their paths yet unable to do more than their path due the primum mobile. This mean aeons are also part of the tree and the space.

aeons control imaginary energy.. ok? why does imaginary energy have to mean the entirety of imaginary space?

nova tackled the other points so go to him for that there were just some things that irked me you could say its a pet peeve but eh

my personal thought i agree with the op it cleared up a lot of my issues with the last thread. we should FOR NOW ignore the herta and yao guang stuff because its insanely contradicted by not only hsr but hi3 and ggz and in doing so 2-A should suffice for the new tiering since theres an infinity of worlds so there could be an infinite amount of worlds the size of genshin and ggz.
got permission form weinew

Weaver261 · Apr 8, 2026

SuperNova55555 said:
we are told it's the physical realm explicitly

No we aren't. The original CN text doesn't include "physical plane".

三月七！：多一个保底方案，不是很好吗？只要你帮助忆庭取回想要的东西，哪怕一切都被铁墓格式化了，我们也能用「记忆」重建世界…甚至宇宙哦。
March 7th: “Isn’t it good to have an extra backup plan? As long as you help the Garden of Recollection retrieve what it wants, even if everything gets formatted by the Iron Tomb, we can use ‘Memory’ to rebuild the world… even the universe.”

If the imaginary tree isn't the universe, why is it likened to a game server as a multiverse model in hi3? Generating a paralle world in the game server = generating a parallel world in the universe.

Nagamitsu: The game server that is called the “Imaginary Tree” can use the save file from any moment in time to generate a new parallel world.

“Yes, for each different choice, a new parallel world will be generated in the universe.”
- GGZ

It's obvious that imaginary tree in hi3 is also considered Universe.

Also in HSR, Universe contains imaginary energy and spaces as well.

we will be able to capture imaginary energy that courses throughout the universe.

In the Imaginary Tree theory put forward by Zandar One Kuwabara, 1st member of the Genius Society, the universe is filled with the mysterious Imaginary Energy. Imaginary Energy isolates star clusters from each other and even light cannot pass through it

The worlds are separated from each other just as leaves are separated by air, between which are unknown imaginary domains that are nigh impossible to traverse.

This is consistent with Hi3 imaginary space explanation where it stated imaginary spaces are all that outside real space.
HSR Universe contains both real spaces and imaginary spaces.

SuperNova55555 said:
I'm talking about the end of the transition. If humans still exist, it means they haven't been assimilated fully, ergo Real Space isn't indistinguishable from Imaginary Space at the time Ena ascended.

SuperNova55555 said:
Which part of this is "affecting the entirety of Imaginary Space"? Which mind you, this feat is still done before it was fully assimilated. This is again just good hax. You'd need to prove Real Space was assimilated and fused with Imaginary Space in it's entirety for the feat to scale.

Why you keep saying "Entirety" when the standard only demands you to affect "Significantly" and not "Entirely". Ena seperating real space from imaginary space is already good feat to scale. We literally had Ryusuke proving that higher dimensional entity is infinitely more powerful than lower dimensional ones.

Furthermore, higher-dimensional entities can also qualify for higher tiers when the verse which they are from explicitly defines them as being infinitely above lower-dimensional ones in power and/or existential status.

SuperNova55555 said:
Not that it matters much, because you'd need to prove Sirin controls the entire domain of IT for her to be High 1-C.

Otto himself described it explicitly. He literally said Sirin has complete control over imaginary space which is the membrane of the imaginary tree.

SuperNova55555 said:
No?????

I mean, first of all, different Imaginary Spaces have different functions. Path Space's time is stopped for example.

First of all, path space isn't even confirmed as imaginary space.

SuperNova55555 said:
And secondly, that's just not how it works. You know we have Finality powers ourselves right??

No we don't??? Dahlia literally explained that Terminus is passing by us and all we did was wishing terminus to change the past.

The Dahlia: And you will be the same. Remember, if you have regrets that must be mended, then shout with all your might from the depths of your heart. Let it be passed to the end of time and make Terminus, who is about to set off, hear your call.
The Dahlia: The fact that you can see this black cat means Terminus is in the process of passing by you. The power of only one black cat cannot change much, but your past is Terminus's future.
The Dahlia: If it remembers your voice and decides to change something in its own future, your past will change accordingly.

SuperNova55555 said:
Thus, I scale to 3-A

I am glad you at least agree to H1-C Aeon existence. We at least have some common ground. (I hope I didn't assume that wrong)
For H1-C AP, I am literally proving that you. Since Aeons can affect the universe in their own ways and since the universe contains both real space and imaginary spaces, aeons should scale to H1-C.
Also you are gonna say "But imaginary spaces outside real space isn't the same as Imaginary space that's the bulk of the tree". But Sirin is literally stated to have complete mastery over imaginary space and that capability is also reference in explanation about imaginary spaces that exists outside real space.
And these imaginary spaces or tidal zones energy scale are stated to be comparable to Cocoon of Finality who as of right now is scaled to H1-C AP. Imaginary energy in Hi3 solar system flows into Cocoon Of Finality. Compare to that, other imaginary zones are masterless. And now Emanators and Aeons control these.

Zandar also posed a hypothesis that humans would be able to control the universe if we can control and manipulate Imaginary Energy. It was a romantic illusion for a long time, until it was brought into reality by the appearance of the Emanators of Aeons.

SuperNova55555 said:
Secondly, part of the IT =/= entirety of the IT. I don't mind them being capable of existing inside of Imaginary Space, I just don't believe they scale to it's entirety.

Again, entirely isn't necessary.

Characters or objects who can significantly affect, create and/or destroy higher-dimensional structures that are six to seven uncountably infinite levels above Low 2-C structures. In ordinary distribution, this corresponds to R^10 to R^11 (10 to 11-dimensional real coordinate space)

Also one interesting scan about Nous is that Nous is higher existence than higher dimension

Simulated Universe: "That signal — you ever thought about viewing its existence from a higher dimension?" She discusses the signal that troubles her with a multidimensional research scholar, transferring the data into their model.
Simulated Universe: And so, you all finally ascertain the signal's true nature — a rippling wave that permeated into the Imaginary background. It's born from an unknown point and disappears beyond an unfathomable range. As long as it is within the ripple's range, the mysterious error will be captured in the experimental data.

The signal Patavia was studying is from higher dimension and it permeated into imaginary background. Yet it's still waves belows waves.

Simulated Universe: She sees the great ocean that she had dreamed of in the vast thoughts of the Erudition. From the first signals she captured to the entire solitary wave to the Rippling Waves in the Imaginary background — When placed inside this great ocean, are no more than waves below the waves.

SuperNova55555 · Apr 8, 2026

Weaver261 said:
No we aren't. The original CN text doesn't include "physical plane".

It doesnt even matter what the TL means because we literally see and are told its only the physical universe by Cyrene. Otherwise the whole plan of escaping into Path Space doesn't work, otherwise Cyrene wouldn't say Real Space-Time or wtvr. Like the whole thread is to reify the contextual usage of universe.

And js to make sure:

昔涟：「我看见，无数『记忆』飘荡在星空中。它们是受难者的心识，在现实的下一秒就会被『毁灭』污染。」

This is Cyrene's statement, she refers to the physical world as Reality. The same way the Proper World is referred to in Hi3 as well.

Generally Im against trusting localizers, but there is very good contextual ground to TL it as such. Otherwise the series of events would never line up. (How they could revamp everything if they were destroyed for example, with the answer being that Path Space is outside of Reality)

Weaver261 said:
If the imaginary tree isn't the universe, why is it likened to a game server as a multiverse model in hi3? Generating a paralle world in the game server = generating a parallel world in the universe.

Genuinely which part of those descriptions portray IT as the Universe. Or at least the Universe in the colloquial sense for HSR?

Weaver261 said:
This is consistent with Hi3 imaginary space explanation where it stated imaginary spaces are all that outside real space.
HSR Universe contains both real spaces and imaginary spaces.

I know this is similar. But it's contradicted in other ways. Since Hi3 would never say the Tree is the Real Space between the domains. In fact, if this was Hi3, those imaginary domains would be the Tree itself. There's like a very good reason why the devs call it a "higher-dimensional concept whose relations cannot be concretely described".

Q: "Why does the 2nd Divine Key have to be used to break the Quantum Manifold to get to the Tree of the Imaginary Numbers? Isn't the Sea of Quanta submerged with roots? Aren't we the leaves?"

Screenwriter's answer: "The model of the Tree and the Sea is only an analogy proposed by Otto. For human beings, the Tree of Imaginary Numbers and the Sea of Quanta are both higher dimensional concepts, and their relationship cannot be described concretely in three

Cuz like you're not actually capable of going to Imaginary Space through Real Space, that's why the Key always breaches the Quantum Dimension first

Weaver261 said:
Otto himself described it explicitly. He literally said Sirin has complete control over imaginary space which is the membrane of the imaginary tree.

If Sirin could control the entire Tree, she'd be stronger than the Cocoon.

Weaver261 said:
First of all, path space isn't even confirmed as imaginary space.

It's impossible for it to be literally anything else. Path Energy is Imaginary Energy, and Path Space is naturally an off-shoot of Imaginary Space. After all: "All spaces outside of Real Space is Imaginary Space"

Weaver261 said:
No we don't??? Dahlia literally explained that Terminus is passing by us and all we did was wishing terminus to change the past.

And we literally use those powers, and remember using them, yet we didn't see anyone go through Imaginary Space

also notice how there's a blatant discrepency between the descriptions lmao? Terminus is "turning back time", not moving through it like a spatial direction. Its literal time manip.

You should really stop headcanonscaling. Like most of your responses do this shit

Weaver261 said:
I am glad you at least agree to H1-C Aeon existence. We at least have some common ground. (I hope I didn't assume that wrong)

No????

That's obviously a reductio man.

Weaver261 said:
Also you are gonna say "But imaginary spaces outside real space isn't the same as Imaginary space that's the bulk of the tree". But Sirin is literally stated to have complete mastery over imaginary space and that capability is also reference in explanation about imaginary spaces that exists outside real space.
And these imaginary spaces or tidal zones energy scale are stated to be comparable to Cocoon of Finality who as of right now is scaled to H1-C AP. Imaginary energy in Hi3 solar system flows into Cocoon Of Finality. Compare to that, other imaginary zones are masterless. And now Emanators and Aeons control these.

Makes a lot of sense yes. Definitely ZERO narrative implications yes. Sirin = Cocoon but apparently she is also weak as shit

You absolutely sure those statements aren't meant to be understood in ANY other way? You sureeeeeeeeeeeee you're not overqualifying that vague ass statement?

Weaver261 said:
Again, entirely isn't necessary.

Yes it is?? Significantly affect means that you can impart a distinguishable effect in it's entirety

Weaver261 said:
Also one interesting scan about Nous is that Nous is higher existence than higher dimension

Weaver261 said:
The signal is Patavia was studying is from higher dimension and it permeated into imaginary background. Yet it's still waves belows waves.

Ok?

Weaver261 · Apr 8, 2026

SuperNova55555 said:
Genuinely which part of those descriptions portray IT as the Universe. Or at least the Universe in the colloquial sense for HSR?

Imaginary tree = game server that hold parallel game worlds = universe that hold parallel worlds

SuperNova55555 said:
In fact, if this was Hi3, those imaginary domains would be the Tree itself. There's like a very good reason why the devs call it a "higher-dimensional concept whose relations cannot be concretely described".

As you also said, imaginary space is the realm or domain of imaginary tree. I am also saying the same here with these scans.

SuperNova55555 said:
Imaginary Space is the realm of the IT,

Since the universe in HSR also contains these imaginary spaces with the energy scale that can compare to H1-C Cocoon of finality, aeons who manipulate these domains should get H1C.

SuperNova55555 said:
Cuz like you're not actually capable of going to Imaginary Space through Real Space,

Not really? Otto literally created a door to imaginary space in kolostan.

SuperNova55555 said:
If Sirin could control the entire Tree, she'd be stronger than the Cocoon.

If you ever read second eruption, you will know she was getting closer to Herrschers of Finality. Not only she was given power by will of Honkai itself and had direct connection with it, she was also capable of creating artificial herrschers. Don't underestimate my queen

SuperNova55555 said:
And we literally use those powers, and remember using them

Prove that with a scan.

SuperNova55555 said:
Terminus is "turning back time", not moving through it like a spatial direction. Its literal time manip.

The Dahlia: Then, Terminus turned into a pack of black cats, distributing every ounce of THEIR divine power between those creatures. The cats shall depart from the end of the world, going against the river of time, till the moment of the universe's birth.

Here also. The scans literally said "moving" and "going"

SuperNova55555 said:
Sirin = Cocoon but apparently she is also weak as shit

Sirin was only defeated because she was inexperienced. Also it was also HoV that became Herrscher of the end in GGZ. Yeah, she pretty strong in full potential

Theresa: Yes. The 2nd Herrscher dragged Siberia into an Imaginary Space 14 years ago…

SuperNova55555 said:
You absolutely sure those statements aren't meant to be understood in ANY other way? You sureeeeeeeeeeeee you're not overqualifying that vague ass statement?

I mean even the power of the sea of quanta that washed away cocoon of finality in Venus can't pass through these spaces

Sa: Even when backed by the power of the sea, is it still impossible to conquer these hindrances put in place by the stars?

SuperNova55555 said:
Yes it is?? Significantly affect means that you can impart a distinguishable effect in it's entirety

I am not even gonna argue about it anymore. If it's the case, just write it in standards that you need to affect entirely

SuperNova55555 · Apr 8, 2026

Weaver261 said:
Imaginary tree = game server that hold parallel game worlds = universe that hold parallel worlds

I heavily doubt game server is a proper analogy to this. It works perfectly fine in the case that IT is a higher membrane. In fact, I'm pretty sure this is similar to configuration spaces in MWI iirc. Maybe that's what it references, but all hoyo analogies are wack as shit

Weaver261 said:
As you also said, imaginary space is the realm or domain of imaginary tree. I am also saying the same here with these scans.

Not sure what this addresses.

Weaver261 said:
Since the universe in HSR also contains these imaginary spaces with the energy scale that can compare to H1-C Cocoon of finality, aeons who manipulate these domains should get H1C.

This literally just nukes Cocoon itself. The entire point is that Cocoon affects the entirety of the the Tree. But if it's energy levels are equivalent to merely a small portion of it, then Cocoon's High 1-C is also nuked.

Weaver261 said:
If you ever read second eruption, you will know she was getting closer to Herrschers of Finality. Not only she was given power by will of Honkai itself and had direct connection with it, she was also capable of creating artificial herrschers. Don't underestimate my queen

I'm talking about HoV itself here. As in, base Sirin. Not abilities granted by WoH. She got those only after going to the moon, but the "mastery" here is in respect to the HoV's powers.

Weaver261 said:
Prove that with a scan.

Like the cutscene? The point isn't even whether it belongs to TB or Terminus here. I can grant either one and it doesn't change what I'm arguing.

Weaver261 said:
Here also. The scans literally said "moving" and "going"

And he does this by time manip... check the cutscene above where the clock literally goes backwards and we see TB then essentially get teleported to the past.

Weaver261 said:
Sirin was only defeated because she was inexperienced. Also it was also HoV that became Herrscher of the end in GGZ. Yeah, she pretty strong in full potential

"Full potential"

Also no, its clear the authority of the Void isn't all powerful like u make it out to be. Otherwise Sirin wouldn't get cooked by a nuke at the beginning but then be in the same level as a supernova after getting the extra cores

Weaver261 said:
I am not even gonna argue about it anymore. If it's the case, just write it in standards that you need to affect entirely

It's just basic induction. If "significantly affect" is 3-A if it's the entire universe, it follows that High 1-C requires the same scale for an 11D plane.

Weaver261 · Apr 8, 2026

SuperNova55555 said:
This literally just nukes Cocoon itself. The entire point is that Cocoon affects the entirety of the the Tree. But if it's energy levels are equivalent to merely a small portion of it, then Cocoon's High 1-C is also nuked.

It still affect the entire tree. Entire tree in this context is real space as well as imaginary space.

Tesla: It’s a valve that manipulates everything Honkai-related from Imaginary endings

Gray Serpent: Even if Elysia sacrificed herself and Prometheus became the Will of the Honkai… the Imaginary passage is still usurped by the Cocoon.

Schrodinger: Their Herrscher powers can affect Imaginary Space more than the awakened Stigmata in you two. This ensures you can close the distance when approaching each other.

Also FAQ stated that higher dimensional entity can get higher tier by being infinitely above lower dimension example being R>F without qualitative superiority. This should grant higher dimensional entities tier 1 even without Tier 1 feats.

Furthermore, higher-dimensional entities can also qualify for higher tiers when the verse which they are from explicitly defines them as being infinitely above lower-dimensional ones in power and/or existential status. An example of this being verses such as Umineko no Naku Koro ni.

SuperNova55555 said:
I'm talking about HoV itself here. As in, base Sirin. Not abilities granted by WoH. She got those only after going to the moon, but the "mastery" here is in respect to the HoV's powers.

Both controls imaginary space anyway. She wasn't granted abilities but rather the power. That allows her to create artificial herrschers and even bestow herrscher level power.

SuperNova55555 said:
And he does this by time manip... check the cutscene above where the clock literally goes backwards and we see TB then essentially get teleported to the past.

Terminus turning back time for trailblazer isn't the same with with Terminus traveling against time. Terminus was on the way of passing by to trailblazer and trailblazer made a wish to terminus. Terminus granted their wish by turning back time to give them an experience. They are entirely different cases.

SuperNova55555 said:
Otherwise Sirin wouldn't get cooked by a nuke at the beginning but then be in the same level as a supernova after getting the extra cores

Sirin was an orphan with no power just a few days ago before awakening as HoV. Also Dura != AP and that's fine. Her AP extends to Imaginary space.

If 11D SoQ power isn't even enough to affect imaginary spaces between worlds, imaginary spaces should be at least H1-C and likely higher. Aeons and emanators traversing and manipulating these spaces like separating reality from it and tearing it open should count as feats. Also universe affecting aeons are also affecting these spaces since these are parts of the universe in HSR

SuperNova55555 · Apr 8, 2026

Weaver261 said:
It still affect the entire tree. Entire tree in this context is real space as well as imaginary space.

So according to you:

Cocoon is equivalent to all of Imaginary Space
But also only equivalent to a single portion of it.

So which is it? It can't be both.

Weaver261 said:
Also FAQ stated that higher dimensional entity can get higher tier by being infinitely above lower dimension example being R>F without qualitative superiority. This should grant higher dimensional entities tier 1 even without Tier 1 feats.

"Power"

Weaver261 said:
Terminus turning back time for trailblazer isn't the same with with Terminus traveling against time. Terminus was on the way of passing by to trailblazer and trailblazer made a wish to terminus. Terminus granted their wish by turning back time to give them an experience. They are entirely different cases.

Of course, time guy has time abilities but decides to run backwards in time rather than use time abilities to js go there.

Obviously.

Weaver261 said:
Sirin was an orphan with no power just a few days ago before awakening as HoV. Also Dura != AP and that's fine. Her AP extends to Imaginary space.

Can create human sized Imaginary Barriers so obviouslyyyy that means she controls the whole Tree.

Also, is it bout time we nuke UES?

Weaver261 · Apr 8, 2026

SuperNova55555 said:
So according to you:

Cocoon is equivalent to all of Imaginary Space

But also only equivalent to a single portion of it.

11D SoQ power can't even break through a single portion of it. I never said cocoon is equal to entire imaginary space, it affect imaginary space. Heck according to scans, even herrschers can affect imaginary space. How do you think will of honkai is capable of giving Otto infinite Honkai energy if cocoon is only comparable to a small amount of imaginary energy? The scan is just comparing imaginary tidal zone to the most powerful entity in solar system, since there's literally no other being stronger than CoF. This doesn't necessarily imply CoF is limited to that.

Durandal: …A way to reach the Imaginary Tree and sufficient Honkai energy, how do you plan to acquire them?
Otto: They’ll be provided by the Will of the Honkai.

Nagamitsu: If Otto somehow established a connection to the Imaginary Tree, he’ll be able to command nearly infinite amounts of Honkai energy.

SuperNova55555 said:
Power

infinitely above lower-dimensional ones in power and/or existential status.

Or condition will come true if one of the two is satisfied.

SuperNova55555 said:
Of course, time guy has time abilities but decides to run backwards in time rather than use time abilities to js go there.

Obviously, time guy performed a feat that's only possible in imaginary space.

SuperNova55555 said:
Can create human sized Imaginary Barriers so obviouslyyyy that means she controls the whole Tree.

Can defeat a guy with near infinite Honkai power and disrupt the law of imaginary tree. Also capable of distorting imaginary space.

Nagamitsu: Then maybe you can distort the space around him and push into imaginary renormalisation so he can only return to the finite world.

???: I bet that the human mind can create miracles and, for a brief second, disturb the laws of the Imaginary Tree

She doesn't control the tree but she can significantly affect it via imaginary space

SuperNova55555 · Apr 8, 2026

Weaver261 said:
I never said cocoon is equal to entire imaginary space

Um. If you don't want anyone scaling to High 1-C, that's fine by me.

It's just crazy you're pulling this up than just saying some nuke-level jobber doesn't scale to the god of the verse.

Weaver261 said:
Or condition will come true if one of the two is satisfied.

Yes but infinitely above is in respect to what you can affect is the implication here.

But whatever:

"Significantly affect" is here used as an umbrella term for feats that don't involve direct creation or destruction but are comparable to them in power, such as warping and distorting the entirety of the structure in question, sustaining its existence with energy, merging the structure with another one, etc.

Weaver261 said:
Obviously, time guy performed a feat that's only possible in imaginary space.

Only possible in Imaginary Space, yet we literally see it being done outside of it

But of course you would rather turn to your own unfounded headcanon than just you know, have the god of time use the time ability as it is described to work...

Weaver261 said:
Can defeat a guy with near infinite Honkai power and disrupt the law of imaginary tree. Also capable of distorting imaginary space.

Same "near infinite" guy whose body limits him to not be able to use infinite power?

Weaver261 said:
She doesn't control the tree but she can significantly affect it via imaginary space

You're heavily inflating the actual weight of that statement.

PedjaTarzan · Apr 8, 2026

got permission from @Reiner04
so for starters everything about herrschers and more specifically sirin affecting imaginary space are just not scalaeable at all because
1. you didnt provide evidence it affects entire IS
2. cuz we lack proof of being entire IS its mostly 11D range which im fine with
Next is stop bringing cocoon into this discussion, cocoon whole existence is completely different compared to that of aeons. except maybe hooh but even then the description would at best give "possibly" 11D. Also whatever scan u used to compare aeons to cocoon for affecting img spaces. the very scan says "imaginary domains" which in no way means actual imaginary space. Did we just forget how cosmology works that the only actual IS is the one from which universe originates from? you know the "Physical Universe" and since you are that much willing to compare herrschers to cof. find me one herrscher who can do this.

Einstein: We don’t know what the Cocoon is… but I’m guessing it’s a template.

Einstein: Project STIGMA will merge reality and Imaginary Space, presumably to synchronise the humans defined by them with Finality forcefully.

Just so you know kiana obtained powers of project stigma after embracing cof
Then just combine statements of cocoon transceding dimensions, space and time, being literally above person who absorbed power from entire SoQ for millions of years and...you get it
So yeah just dont use CoF and Herrschers as example here.
you still have scans for IX being supposedly SoQ but...good luck with that thats all i can say

Zanesucksatlife · Apr 8, 2026

ALRIGHT
Permission granted by Reiner04
I agree with the OP (If I didn't make that clear the last time)

Before I start, let me say this

Weaver261 said:
11D SoQ power can't even break through a single portion of it. I never said cocoon is equal to entire imaginary space, it affect imaginary space. Heck according to scans, even herrschers can affect imaginary space. How do you think will of honkai is capable of giving Otto infinite Honkai energy if cocoon is only comparable to a small amount of imaginary energy? The scan is just comparing imaginary tidal zone to the most powerful entity in solar system, since there's literally no other being stronger than CoF. This doesn't necessarily imply CoF is limited to that.

Because I've had this exact conversation way earlier , please tell me Where in thus spoke apocalypse you see Otto using his infinite "power", Ottos infinite power was simply for his Regen it has nothing to do with his attack potential or his damage capacity or his durability.
Yes you're right WoH has given Otto Infinite HE which allowed for Ottos FG transformation, which by the way his plan was for us to use renormalization to turn his infinite status into finite which allowed for Otto to become a direct slave to the tree, please show me in the clips we see him use his infinite power for anything else except for what we've seen which is HEALING he was healing himself!! He wasn't using his infinite power attacking. It was all for his regeneration, literally why it was such a hard fight was due to Ottos stupidly broken Regen

Weaver261 said:
Or condition will come true if one of the two is satisfied.

Obviously, time guy performed a feat that's only possible in imaginary space.

Can defeat a guy with near infinite Honkai power and disrupt the law of imaginary tree. Also capable of distorting imaginary space.

Means absolutely nothing, we see hmmm...

Weaver261 said:
She doesn't control the tree but she can significantly affect it via imaginary space

And this doesn't even mean anything ngl , Kiana too and she's above the tree.
Not every imaginary space in Honkai is the exact same, unless you think every imaginary space is somehow the same as the theatre of domination! Aeon's don't scale to the tree besides IX and HooH

Yes we know Nous was pruning "universal" possibilities in HSR , but he doesn't affect tree in a way you think he doesn't
He's affecting leaves, he's not actively shaving down the entire tree.. Irontombs destruction was only for the physical universe Which!! we can see here!! , this is affecting the physical space, we don't see it mention anything higher so it would be a pretty stupid assumption to say he was affecting everything when he was destroying the Universe and we also know that physically destroying the Universe isn't enough to destroy the imaginary material in Honkai as said CoF is above all dimensions and we know thanks to the barrier that it was protecting everything and so thanks to:
???: Is this a world beyond the reach of any god, one that even the "Trailblaze" has yet to set foot in?
We know that Aeons can't see/enter the side with the CoF thanks to the barrier

Terminologies suck yes, I do know that.

Both Sirin and Otto being empowered by the WoH is the exact same thing that Aeons do to Emanators. But we aren't scaling every god forsaken Emanator to the Aeons cause that would be dumb.

And I hope you know that, you're conflations of "11D SoQ and IT are inside the 4D universe" is basically nuking the H1C we spent time getting back..

The Sea of Quanta and the Imaginary Tree exist outside the 4D universe, you can't cram them into that. You'll have to headcanon extremely as to why they 2 11-12D structures can freely exist in a 4D structure without destroying the structure and.. yea

2A makes a lot more sense compared to the H1C which everyone except for IX and HooH have shown they possibly don't even scale to (yes those two also but who knows they're still pretty unknown)

And also with that: Aeons don't and will never scale to the Cocoon of finality.
Since we know that Aeons aren't above all dimensions (We literally see Nanook get scratched so it's a stupid idea to say they are lmao)

Until we see something like:

Coming from Honkai star rail, it should be pretty clear that Aeons (Besides maybe HooH and IX) don't scale to the tree and won't for a very long time..

If these Aeons were truly above the tree, then they would have survived Irontombs destruction, and I think it's made pretty clear (I think) that no Aeon did, which is blatant enough to tell they are below the tree.

Sooo yea! You need a leap of logic and headcanon to say that Aeons are above when what we've been shown is that they aren't.

Which is why 2A is granted (it could literally be lower)

Possibly 11D range would make the most sense for anything H1C for Aeons

So before making another argument, get permission and two
Rewatch the gameplay of what happened.

I'm not being rude, I'm being blunt
I hate seeing Misinformation get spread
It's bad enough we lack the Terminology/Localisation for what was being explained.

SuperNova55555 · Apr 8, 2026

Zanesucksatlife said:
If these Aeons were truly above the tree, then they would have survived Irontombs destruction, and I think it's made pretty clear (I think) that no Aeon did, which is blatant enough to tell they are below the tree.

They didn’t die doe… really anyone in Path Space could’ve survived that because (as exhaustingly stated already), Irontomb only affected the physical plane.

The issue is really just a lack of feats in general, honestly. There’s no issues with them existing within Imaginary Space, but destroying all of it? Unfounded.

Reiner04 · Apr 9, 2026

Remiander that this is a staff thread. I don't remember giving anyone more than one or 2 permissions, yet, for last, make a single summary post of you arguement and post it and let it handled by the staffs.

Weaver261 · Apr 9, 2026

SuperNova55555 said:
Um. If you don't want anyone scaling to High 1-C, that's fine by me.

It's not about wanting to scale someone to H1-C. It's about scaling it correctly

SuperNova55555 said:
Yes but infinitely above is in respect to what you can affect is the implication here.

I am not very sure about that but I can't really say much to argue it either. I am sure staffs will figure it out.

SuperNova55555 said:
Only possible in Imaginary Space, yet we literally see it being done outside of it

I am not sure why we even discussing about it when we have no problem with aeons existing in imaginary space. If u are talking about penacony, aeons can't even come to physical world directly.

SuperNova55555 said:
have the god of time use the time ability as it is described to work...

I mean if terminus is just using time manipulation to appear at different point in time, it would not make sense with their traveling against time and passing by us just like someone running across and meeting someone on the way.

SuperNova55555 said:
Same "near infinite" guy whose body limits him to not be able to use infinite power?

Yeah? I am just entertaining this because you claimed Sirin is weak which isn't the case obviously. It has little to do with current topic.

SuperNova55555 said:
You're heavily inflating the actual weight of that statement.

I am just asking questions based on the scan I have. If the sea is 11D and its power can't get through these imaginary space, it would only make sense for these spaces to scale at least 11D and higher?

Even if all of this don't work, aeons should be index at 2-A at least, Higher into unknown to avoid confusion.

About the cocoon, Prometheus literally became will of honkai by infiltrating into the tree. And the tree is used interchangeably with CoF. So yeah. Figure it out how it work I guess.

Mobius: You'll become a Trojan horse projected to the imaginary side, impose the constraint of thought on Honkai, and drive it onto a track laid by humans.
Mobius: Do you know what that really means?
PROMETHEUS: I will no longer be able to emulate human thinking.
Mobius: ... That's some downplaying.
Mobius: On the pathway that connects this planet to the imaginary space, your invasion will induce the birth of countless parallel consciousnesses.
Mobius: You should know the tentative name MEI gave them: Imaginary Renormalization Group.
Mobius: Their existence solidifies the occurrence pattern of Honkai, allowing the power of Herrschers to remain unchanged to the greatest extent possible in all mappings.
Mobius: In other words, you'll be the biggest contributor to the war against Honkai in the next era—because the Herrschers they will encounter, starting from the Herrscher of Reason, will be the same as those in our era.
Mobius: But it comes at a price... Your consciousness will become one of them and be mercilessly engulfed by them, unless the only backdoor is activated correctly by someone.
someone.

In summary, cocoon is used interchangeably with the entire imaginary tree. Thus, CoF should get H1-C as usual. Aeons should also get H1-C by recreating and destroying the tree which includes not just real space but imaginary space as per these proofs.
As for why imaginary tree/space is H1-C, it's due to the rivalry with 11D SoQ.

Weaver261 said:
Also in HSR, Universe contains imaginary energy and spaces as well.

Every imaginary space should be H1-C due being superior to 11D SoQ. Even affecting one of them should grant H1-C.

Sa: Even when backed by the power of the sea, is it still impossible to conquer these hindrances put in place by the stars?

This is my summary and I will no longer prolong this thread. Thanks for reading

SuperNova55555 · Apr 9, 2026

I don’t think there’s anything substantial to respond to above, and I agree with Reina-can to let mods rate the thread but I have to clarify:

Weaver261 said:
I am just asking questions based on the scan I have. If the sea is 11D and its power can't get through these imaginary space, it would only make sense for these spaces to scale at least 11D and higher?

We settled on a multiplicity of Imaginary Spaces, because that’s what we’re told. And these spaces can range anywhere from 5-Dimensional to 11-Dimensional.

Because as you know, the very Sirin scan that you use states that any space outside of standard 4-dimensional Space-Time is incorporeal Imaginary Space, and that’s what we settled for last thread.

For the Imaginary Space of the Tree, I am absolutely fine with 11-dimensional. For any other though, you will have to prove that with additional proof, otherwise they default to like 5D or wtvr.

That’s all.

Reiner04 · Apr 9, 2026

I was told to ping some staffs.

@FinePoint @Elizhaa @Planck69 @Qawsedf234 @Just a Random Butler @Vietthai96
Your opimion on the thwead will be appreciated.

Planck69 · Apr 9, 2026

I would appreciate Weaver and Supernova to simply summarize all their own arguments on one post each, the back-and-forth has gone on long enough.

Weaver261 · Apr 9, 2026

Planck69 said:
I would appreciate Weaver and Supernova to simply summarize all their own arguments on one post each, the back-and-forth has gone on long enough.

This is my summary
---------------------
H1-C currently applys to Sea Of Quanta for being 11 Dimensional. Imaginary Tree also accepted as H1-C by being rivalry with Sea of Quanta. Imaginary Tree and Imaginary space are also used interchangably sometimes making the space also H1-C. That's current accepted scale.

Why Aeons should scale to H1-C?
-------------------------------------
Aeons have several feats affecting the universe.

Weaver261 said:
Ena sepearted reality and imaginary. Thus affecting both real space and imaginary space as a whole.

Weaver261 said:
IX literally exists beyond the tree and the tree goes eternal recurrence under THEIR shadow. This eternal recurrence is talking about how universe will be ended by finality and the new universe being born through remembrance. Since remembrance recreate not only the real space part of the universe as well as finality which imply remembrance recreate path space and imaginary space too. Even IX the nihility who exist outside of the tree is affected by finality ending the universe means finality isn't just destruction of the material world but as well as the end of everything including path space.

Commonly understood concept of Imaginary Tree = Universe makes Aeon H1-C.
Honkai Star Rail Imaginary Tree theory by Zandar states Imaginary Tree is the universe with infinite parallel worlds (space-times) while Otto's theory from Honkai Impact 3rd states Imaginary Tree is a medium that carry infinite parallel worlds. They are the same to that point but Hi3 story portrayed Imaginary space as a higher realm of imaginary tree calling it a "membrane".

OP argued that Imaginary Tree terminology refers structures differently in Honkai Impact 3rd (Hi3) and Honkai Star Rail (HSR)
According the scan stating Irontomb formatting (destroying) the universe and Fuli, Aeon of Remembrance recreating the universe seems to suggest that Universe is just Real space. So OP claimed that Aeons can only affect Real space losing them Tier 1.

But according to the other scans, Universe (Imaginary Tree) in HSR isn't just real space but also contains countless imaginary domains that no one can traverse. And story also stated multiple times that Imaginary Energy course through the universe.

we will be able to capture imaginary energy that courses throughout the universe.

In the Imaginary Tree theory put forward by Zandar One Kuwabara, 1st member of the Genius Society, the universe is filled with the mysterious Imaginary Energy. Imaginary Energy isolates star clusters from each other and even light cannot pass through it

The worlds are separated from each other just as leaves are separated by air, between which are unknown imaginary domains that are nigh impossible to traverse.

This is consistent with Hi3 imaginary space explanation where it stated imaginary spaces are all that outside real space.
So OP arguing about Universe only being real space is not true.

But you might ask are these imaginary domains/spaces even scalable? To what?
Well, this scan is talking about imaginary space as well as Void Herrscher Sirin's capability to reflect objects inside imaginary space. The same void herrscher is also stated to have complete mastery over Imaginary space which Otto stated as "membrane" of the imaginary tree. So, these imaginary domains that exist outside real space are the same imaginary space that is described as the membrane of imaginary tree both of which are in rivlary with 11D Sea Of Quanta.
Moreover, even 11D Sea Of Quanta's power isn't capable of breaching through these spaces. 1st scan, 2nd scan

Who scale to this?
--------------------
Ena the order scales to H1-C by seperating reality from imaginary space categorizing real and unreal.

1:1 Since the Dusk War, the heaven has been empty and the earth chaotic.
1:2 ██ tore open the void, and the light of thought shone into the material world.
1:3 Yet mortals are unable to perceive the illusion of reality.
1:4 To guide Heaven, Earth, and all things toward what can be known, the Supreme One of “Order” was born.
1:5 THEY set the tone for all things, calling space-time the staff of a score, and established the law of twelve graded intervals.
1:6 Reality and imagination were thus distinguished, and so things came to be.
1:7 All things are now categorized into both the real and the unreal. This was the first day.
- Lost property readable

"light of thought" here is referring to Imaginary since once you tore open the void, imaginary will leak into the universe. This is also consistent with Hi3 Project Stigma where reality is fused into imaginary space.

[†5] Based on historical records, the Reignbow's arrow smashed into the Ambrosial Arbor, penetrated the almighty beast, and severed the connection between the Luofu and Muldrasil. This ripped open a fissure into the void, and a monstrous wave of imaginary force spewed forth from it. This line describes that event.
- Annotations from "Ode to Reignbow Path"

Einstein: Project STIGMA will merge reality and Imaginary space, presumably to synchronise the humans defined by them with Finality forcefully.

It's basically known as imaginary dimensional bleed. When it happens, the physical world will be assimilated into imaginary space. So Ena's order can order the unordered imaginary space and distinguish the two. Ena being capable of ordering the unordered imaginary space is the same as affecting the chaotic imaginary space significantly.

Xipe, Aeon of Harmony will also scale to Ena because Xipe absorbed Ena.

IX, Aeon of Nihility will also scale to H1-C since IX exists outside Imaginary Tree and IX is one of the four finalities that can end the universe. Harmony is also part of these fours scaling to it.

The first three possibilities are certain: the "Destruction," the "Nihility," and the "Harmony." The fourth Path, however, remains vacant... or has simply yet to manifest.

Fuli, Aeon of Remembrance should also scale to H1-C because it was later revealed as one of the four finalities. Fuli will also recreate the universe after finality. Recreating the universe means recreating both real space and imaginary space scaling to H1-C.

Thoughts equals existence. Thus, memory is the evidence of existence.
The Aeon that presides over the Path of Remembrance records all that has been forgotten and prepares for the rebirth of the universe.

Imaginary domains that are impossible to traverse even with 11D Sea of Quanta power are proven to be able to traversed by Aeons and Emanators.

Imaginary Energy isolates star clusters from each other and even light cannot pass through it. Therefore, human space exploration is often limited by the boundaries of their individual worlds, unable to advance any further. Zandar also posed a hypothesis that humans would be able to control the universe if we can control and manipulate Imaginary Energy. It was a romantic illusion for a long time, until it was brought into reality by the appearance of the Emanators of Aeons.

Also, according to FAQ, I am not very sure but being in existential status that is infinitely superior to lower ones should grant them higher tiers automatically??. Higher dimensions in Honkai are portrayed as R>F without qualitative superiority

Furthermore, higher-dimensional entities can also qualify for higher tiers when the verse which they are from explicitly defines them as being infinitely above lower-dimensional ones in power and/or existential status. An example of this being verses such as Umineko no Naku Koro ni.

In my conclusion, Aeons should scale to H1-C for affecting the universe with imaginary spaces. Irontomb's feat of destroying the universe is explicitly about Real space thus it should be scale to 2-A instead. Thanks for your time. If you have any additional questions about these arguments, feel free to ask so.

Edited to debunk a few misconception OP is having. OP questioned Ena's feat saying reality and IS aren't fully indistinguishable. It's also true that humans can't survive in imaginary space. But they don't cases to exist immediately. So it's possible to humans to still exist before imaginary space destroys them.

humans were still living at that time, which is impossible if Reality and IS are indistinguishable.

Another faulty argument

Otto himself, even when making analogies like the Tree growing and whatnot, which are similar to the same analogies used in HSR, has never and I mean never referred to the thing that's growing as the "Universe", unlike what HSR does: He only says the "Tree"

Otto said tree drunk from the sea and endured time (relating to drinking from sea in original Chinese) to grow. HSR also stated the tree sprouted from the primordial chaos and nurtured by time. Both tree are stated to be nurtured by time. If HSR tree is stated to be universe, hi3 tree is also universe. Not to even mention this.

Nagamitsu: The game server that is called the “Imaginary Tree” can use the save file from any moment in time to generate a new parallel world.

“Yes, for each different choice, a new parallel world will be generated in the universe.”
- GGZ

Another faulty argument

she would job to a literal nuke:

Sirin was just awakened as Herrscher of the void recently and doesn't know how to properly use her powers. Also Durability doesn't need to match AP. HoV is explicitly stated to control imaginary space.

SYSTEM: Sirin turned into the Herrscher of the Void, capable of manipulating Imaginary Space.

SuperNova55555 · Apr 9, 2026

Planck69 said:
I would appreciate Weaver and Supernova to simply summarize all their own arguments on one post each, the back-and-forth has gone on long enough.

The Basic Facts:

The Physical World (commonly monikered as "Real Space", the "Proper World" or "Reality") is explicitly 4-dimensional. (This is a standard accepted in a previous CRT) And there's good proof in Hi3 it contains infinite timelines, meaning 2-A for the Physical World. Whereas Imaginary Space and/or the Imaginary Tree is an 11-Dimensional High 1-C realm.
These statements and these statements in HSR posit wave function collapse and that the alternate timelines collapse when a future is picked. So 2-A is contradicted.
But, as per the "Counter-Arguments" section in the OP, there's scans in HSR itself that still posit alternate timelines meaning point 2) is very inconsistent even in the same game. Thus, 2-A is largely the most consistent interpretation of the cosmology and that seems to be the majority view.

The Difference between the Imaginary Tree in Hi3 and HSR:

In HSR, the Imaginary Tree is commonly referenced to as the universe itself.
1. The Data Bank statement explicitly calls it the universe. Multiple times even.
2. Herta also calls it a universe in her description. This description is also in reference to this scan, which keep in mind for later.
3. The Tree of Existence (Imaginary Tree) is explicitly the place Akivili explores (the universe).
In Hi3, the Imaginary Tree (IT) is not the Universe, and is used interchangeably with Imaginary Space (IS). What I'm gonna say for this section is basically the exact same as the "Issues with the Imaginary Tree" section in my OP, so go read that since it's not long at all. But I'll summarize key points:
1. The IT and the IS are both the origin of all laws.
2. The IT and IS are both the origin of the universe.
3. The IT and IS are both dimensions outside of reality that you need to open portals to reach.
4. IS is called the "Realm" or "Membrane" of the Imaginary Tree. Meaning that IS is just used to distinguish the Tree, not as a structure, but as it's own realm/space/dimension outside of Physical Space.

The "Universe" or "Tree" in HSR refers to Reality and Physical Space:

For this, I recommend reading the first two scans in the OP.
1. The first one says Irontomb will destroy the Physical Plane, and then it re-affirms that that "Physical Plane" is the Universe proper.
  1. Weaver put into attention that the original CN does not mention "Physical Plane", thus it can be called a localization issue. Yet, this is not an issue, and "Physical Plane" is still contextually valid. I will explain:
2. The second scan, which happens after Irontomb destroyed the "Universe", mentions specifically (even in the original CN), that it affected "Reality", i.e the Physical World.
  1. This statement is done in Path Space (a realm with no time) that exists outside the physical world (it is a type of Imaginary Space). They used this to literally escape Irontomb's attack. Meaning Irontomb, and all the relevant "Universe" statements are referring to Reality, i.e 4-dimensional space.
3. To further back this up, we have the Herta statements once again where she explicitly refers to this same physical world Irontomb destroyed as the Tree itself.

As a conclusion: Within HSR, the term for "Imaginary Tree" is colloquially used to explicitly refer to the Physical constituent of the cosmology, i.e "Reality", which is accepted as 4-dimensional and generally would scale to 2-A.

Addressing some of Weaver's points:
Here, he posits these points:

Weaver261 said:
Ena sepearted reality and imaginary. Thus affecting both real space and imaginary space as a whole.
"light of thought" here is referring to Imaginary since once you tore open the void, imaginary will leak into the universe. This is also consistent with Hi3 Project Stigma where reality is fused into imaginary space.
Basically after dusk war, imaginary leaked into reality and they are merged. Ena was born to seperate the two. This is consistent with the explanation of Imaginary space in Hi3 where it explains real space can be ordered but imaginary space isn't. The text spoke about how the heaven and earth aka Universe was chaotic.

He argues that they are affecting Imaginary Space here. Which, as I'll admit, is true as all the descriptions do line up. The issue being that they're only affecting a portion of the Imaginary Space (particularly only the part that leaks into the 4-dimensional physical world), not it's entirety (which is required to "significantly affect" a realm) and thus are not granted High 1-C, but only 11D interaction (which is something they already have).

A similar feat has been displayed in Hi3:

^Where they can use the 2nd Key to open a portal to the Imaginary Tree and allow it to leak inside. Obviously, this is not High 1-C AP, at all.

As for the Ena feat in particular, it is important to note that Reality and Imaginary Space never fused completely together as humans were still living at that time, which is impossible if Reality and IS are indistinguishable. (Even the scans themselves say that IS is extremely hostile to normal humans).

Weaver261 said:
I am not very sure about that but I can't really say much to argue it either. I am sure staffs will figure it out.

^And on a more particular note, I really want to mention how much Weaver was trying to posit that affecting the whole realm isn't necessary for the tier during the entirety of the thread. Which heavilyyyyyyy leads me to believe that he himself doesn't actually think they affected the entirety of IS, otherwise there'd be no reason to defend it for 5 messages straight.

For HooH:

Weaver261 said:
Aeons don't lack the feats of affecting H1-C Imaginary Tree.
HooH is fused with the tree's logic.

You can simply read the response that I made:

SuperNova55555 said:
To begin:

My claim:

Then, your claim:
So I’m just gonna assume that:

1) I’m being strawmanned here

and

2) You’re committing an enthymeme

There is, in fact, a reason why I specified the usage of “Path” or “Imaginary” Space, because the entire section after that is dedicated to argue that “Universe” should not be relegated to both the Proper World and the Imaginary Space.

In fact, the term itself is always used to refer to the Proper World, especially in Hi3. It’s just that HSR sometimes uses it interchangeably with the Tree itself.

So when you say that “there’s a feat of it affecting the Tree”—that’s not what I’m asking for at all. Because in general, especially with the Irontomb-adjacent statements, it is explicitly talking about the physical world.

And as per 2), let’s investigate the particular verbiage.

So, the scan in particular says “web of logic behind the universe's movement”, whereas you both interpret it as it talking about the “High 1-C Imaginary Tree” and the “Tree’s Logic”, to which I assume you’re skipping a few steps because those are not the same terms at all.

To clarify, I’m not particularly against the Tree being understood as the Universe in an HSR context, but I’m against it being the same as the Hi3 one.

Especially when the scan specifies “Universe”; and this is very important, because there’s a reason you didn’t add any additional context to this scan. Because you would know that there’s not a single sentence within the game that implies the Web of Logic extends to anything beyond the Proper World.

But whatever, I’ll do the job you:
^ Particularly relevant here is the usage of Space and Time, because the functions of HooH’s Web is the ordering of imbalance across the movement of the timeline itself, up until the next “patch”.

I.e, it refers to the movement and of the Universe’s physical constituents.

Thus, it is merely the thing that inter-relates the various parts of the physical Universe:
(Anomaly Arbitration NPC^)

Since this would not be how time functions within Path Space, since by time not flowing, the "patch" system cannot work:

I mean, in all honesty, I could ask you a lot of stuff:

How does the Web of Logic relate to Imaginary Space? Is it born from it? Located in it?

What part of Imaginary Space does it constitute?

Is there proof it envelops anything beyond the Physical World?

As per 3), how do we know the functions of the Web is scalable at all, since it certainly isn’t any proper AP?

Etc etc. And certainly I’d be dammed to find a single thing in the game that would answer these.

^since he pretty much conceded on this topic, or at the very least didn't want to continue it since he felt it might've not been worth it or sum:

Weaver261 said:
I admit that I can't answer these with current scans we have.

Weaver also posits these statements as a "defeater" to Hi3 and HSR Trees having a different interpretation:

Weaver261 said:
Hi3 also stated that Imaginary tree isn't just a domain like OP claimed but also a multiverse model and a medium that carries parallel worlds just like how HSR described it. Even though OP claimed that Hi3 tree is incosistent with HSR tree, it's proving otherwise.

Issue being that in the sense of HSR, the Tree is the composition or sum of these worlds. Particularly looking at Herta's statements, she posits the "present" of the Universe as the sum of these explicitly. Which is incoherent when the Tree (more specifically, Imaginary Space) is merely a higher-dimensional membrane that exists intrinsically outside of these 4-dimensional worlds and contains them as any higher-dimensional world contains the lower ones.

The reductio here is to be saying that SoQ is the sum of all Bubble Worlds, which would be extremely inaccurate.

Otto himself, even when making analogies like the Tree growing and whatnot, which are similar to the same analogies used in HSR, has never and I mean never referred to the thing that's growing as the "Universe", unlike what HSR does:

"The Tree has drunk from the Sea and endured an asamkhya of time and grown a nayuta of branches, and leaves."

^ He only says the "Tree".

It again differentiates the Tree and SoQ as separate structures from the Universe proper (something never done in HSR):

"The Tree and Sea are alone in the Universe. Thus began their never-ending rivalry."

And there's like a bunch of this stuff but it seems redundant at this point, so I'll just go to the last concerning part I've observed:

Weaver261 said:
You don't need the same durability to get H1-C AP. Not only Void Herrscher is explitcitly stated to have complete mastery over Imaginary space, herrschers are stated the ability to control higher dimensional space.

Here he is positing High 1-C for Sirin, a character who can control Imaginary Space, but is also a character famously so weak that she would job to a literal nuke:

And mind you, she literally gets explicitly stronger just a few chapters later to the point where she can contend with a supernova. So it is quite literally incoherent for her powerlevel to be equivalent to the Cocoon at any level. And when I say incoherent, I mean incoherent. It would complete narrative baffoonery for this to be the case and would contradict so much stuff. Like how she can control the entire Tree and still get stronger...? Beats me. How she lost to a nuke? Beats me. How Welt beat her? Beats me.

B-But she's stated to have mastery over IS !!

You sureeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee that's meant to be understood as "she can control the entirety of the 11-dimensional Imaginary Tree at full power"?

Damn man. I guess Welt really is that strong lmao. "Kneel" Amirite guys?

And funniest thing in this section is particularly this:

Weaver261 said:
And these imaginary spaces or tidal zones energy scale are stated to be comparable to Cocoon of Finality who as of right now is scaled to H1-C AP. Imaginary energy in Hi3 solar system flows into Cocoon Of Finality. Compare to that, other imaginary zones are masterless. And now Emanators and Aeons control these.

Where he is literally arguing that THE Cocoon, the top number 1 of the verse, is comparable to ONE of these Imaginary Spaces:

The worlds are separated from each other just as leaves are separated by air, between which are unknown imaginary domains that are nigh impossible to traverse.

^not knowing that this would debunk Cocoon itself since it means that it's no longer equivalent to the entire Tree, but only a small section of it, and thus make literally noone scale to High 1-C.

All this just so he can defend this nuke-level jobber. Smh.

(Also, to clarify, I am fine with High 1-C for Cocoon. Weaver is just being a little silly here.)

Anyways, that should be all the relevant stuff. Thnx for reading.

Planck69 · Apr 9, 2026

Weaver made some good points but reading both of them, I think that 2-A for Aeons would be fine for now.

Planck69 · Apr 9, 2026

SuperNova55555 said:
The Basic Facts:

The Physical World (commonly monikered as "Real Space", the "Proper World" or "Reality") is explicitly 4-dimensional. (This is a standard accepted in a previous CRT) And there's good proof in Hi3 it contains infinite timelines, meaning 2-A for the Physical World. Whereas Imaginary Space and/or the Imaginary Tree is an 11-Dimensional High 1-C realm.

These statements and these statements in HSR posit wave function collapse and that the alternate timelines collapse when a future is picked. So 2-A is contradicted.

But, as per the "Counter-Arguments" section in the OP, there's scans in HSR itself that still posit alternate timelines meaning point 2) is very inconsistent even in the same game. Thus, 2-A is largely the most consistent interpretation of the cosmology and that seems to be the majority view.

The Difference between the Imaginary Tree in Hi3 and HSR:

In HSR, the Imaginary Tree is commonly referenced to as the universe itself.

The Data Bank statement explicitly calls it the universe. Multiple times even.

Herta also calls it a universe in her description. This description is also in reference to this scan, which keep in mind for later.

The Tree of Existence (Imaginary Tree) is explicitly the place Akivili explores (the universe).

In Hi3, the Imaginary Tree (IT) is not the Universe, and is used interchangeably with Imaginary Space (IS). What I'm gonna say for this section is basically the exact same as the "Issues with the Imaginary Tree" section in my OP, so go read that since it's not long at all. But I'll summarize key points:

The IT and the IS are both the origin of all laws.

The IT and IS are both the origin of the universe.

The IT and IS are both dimensions outside of reality that you need to open portals to reach.

IS is called the "Realm" or "Membrane" of the Imaginary Tree. Meaning that IS is just used to distinguish the Tree, not as a structure, but as it's own realm/space/dimension outside of Physical Space.

The "Universe" or "Tree" in HSR refers to Reality and Physical Space:

For this, I recommend reading the first two scans in the OP.

The first one says Irontomb will destroy the Physical Plane, and then it re-affirms that that "Physical Plane" is the Universe proper.

Weaver put into attention that the original CN does not mention "Physical Plane", thus it can be called a localization issue. Yet, this is not an issue, and "Physical Plane" is still contextually valid. I will explain:

The second scan, which happens after Irontomb destroyed the "Universe", mentions specifically (even in the original CN), that it affected "Reality", i.e the Physical World.

This statement is done in Path Space (a realm with no time) that exists outside the physical world (it is a type of Imaginary Space). They used this to literally escape Irontomb's attack. Meaning Irontomb, and all the relevant "Universe" statements are referring to Reality, i.e 4-dimensional space.

To further back this up, we have the Herta statements once again where she explicitly refers to this same physical world Irontomb destroyed as the Tree itself.

As a conclusion: Within HSR, the term for "Imaginary Tree" is colloquially used to explicitly refer to the Physical constituent of the cosmology, i.e "Reality", which is accepted as 4-dimensional and generally would scale to 2-A.

Addressing some of Weaver's points:
Here, he posits these points:

He argues that they are affecting Imaginary Space here. Which, as I'll admit, is true as all the descriptions do line up. The issue being that they're only affecting a portion of the Imaginary Space (particularly only the part that leaks into the 4-dimensional physical world), not it's entirety (which is required to "significantly affect" a realm) and thus are not granted High 1-C, but only 11D interaction (which is something they already have).

A similar feat has been displayed in Hi3:

^Where they can use the 2nd Key to open a portal to the Imaginary Tree and allow it to leak inside. Obviously, this is not High 1-C AP, at all.

As for the Ena feat in particular, it is important to note that Reality and Imaginary Space never fused completely together as humans were still living at that time, which is impossible if Reality and IS are indistinguishable. (Even the scans themselves say that IS is extremely hostile to normal humans).

^And on a more particular note, I really want to mention how much Weaver was trying to posit that affecting the whole realm isn't necessary for the tier during the entirety of the thread. Which heavilyyyyyyy leads me to believe that he himself doesn't actually think they affected the entirety of IS, otherwise there'd be no reason to defend it for 5 messages straight.

For HooH:

You can simply read the response that I made:

^since he pretty much conceded on this topic, or at the very least didn't want to continue it since he felt it might've not been worth it or sum:

Weaver also posits these statements as a "defeater" to Hi3 and HSR Trees having a different interpretation:

Issue being that in the sense of HSR, the Tree is the composition or sum of these worlds. Particularly looking at Herta's statements, she posits the "present" of the Universe as the sum of these explicitly. Which is incoherent when the Tree (more specifically, Imaginary Space) is merely a higher-dimensional membrane that exists intrinsically outside of these 4-dimensional worlds and contains them as any higher-dimensional world contains the lower ones.

The reductio here is to be saying that SoQ is the sum of all Bubble Worlds, which would be extremely inaccurate.

Otto himself, even when making analogies like the Tree growing and whatnot, which are similar to the same analogies used in HSR, has never and I mean never referred to the thing that's growing as the "Universe", unlike what HSR does:

^ He only says the "Tree".

It again differentiates the Tree and SoQ as separate structures from the Universe proper (something never done in HSR):

And there's like a bunch of this stuff but it seems redundant at this point, so I'll just go to the last concerning part I've observed:

Here he is positing High 1-C for Sirin, a character who can control Imaginary Space, but is also a character famously so weak that she would job to a literal nuke:

And mind you, she literally gets explicitly stronger just a few chapters later to the point where she can contend with a supernova. So it is quite literally incoherent for her powerlevel to be equivalent to the Cocoon at any level. And when I say incoherent, I mean incoherent. It would complete narrative baffoonery for this to be the case and would contradict so much stuff. Like how she can control the entire Tree and still get stronger...? Beats me. How she lost to a nuke? Beats me. How Welt beat her? Beats me.

B-But she's stated to have mastery over IS !!

You sureeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee that's meant to be understood as "she can control the entirety of the 11-dimensional Imaginary Tree at full power"?

Damn man. I guess Welt really is that strong lmao. "Kneel" Amirite guys?

And funniest thing in this section is particularly this:

Where he is literally arguing that THE Cocoon, the top number 1 of the verse, is comparable to ONE of these Imaginary Spaces:

^not knowing that this would debunk Cocoon itself since it means that it's no longer equivalent to the entire Tree, but only a small section of it, and thus make literally noone scale to High 1-C.

All this just so he can defend this nuke-level jobber. Smh.

(Also, to clarify, I am fine with High 1-C for Cocoon. Weaver is just being a little silly here.)

Anyways, that should be all the relevant stuff. Thnx for reading.

Weaver261 said:
This is my summary
---------------------
H1-C currently applys to Sea Of Quanta for being 11 Dimensional. Imaginary Tree also accepted as H1-C by being rivalry with Sea of Quanta. Imaginary Tree and Imaginary space are also used interchangably sometimes making the space also H1-C. That's current accepted scale.

Why Aeons should scale to H1-C?
-------------------------------------
Aeons have several feats affecting the universe.

Commonly understood concept of Imaginary Tree = Universe makes Aeon H1-C.
Honkai Star Rail Imaginary Tree theory by Zandar states Imaginary Tree is the universe with infinite parallel worlds (space-times) while Otto's theory from Honkai Impact 3rd states Imaginary Tree is a medium that carry infinite parallel worlds. They are the same to that point but Hi3 story portrayed Imaginary space as a higher realm of imaginary tree calling it a "membrane".

OP argued that Imaginary Tree terminology refers structures differently in Honkai Impact 3rd (Hi3) and Honkai Star Rail (HSR)
According the scan stating Irontomb formatting (destroying) the universe and Fuli, Aeon of Remembrance recreating the universe seems to suggest that Universe is just Real space. So OP claimed that Aeons can only affect Real space losing them Tier 1.

But according to the other scans, Universe (Imaginary Tree) in HSR isn't just real space but also contains countless imaginary domains that no one can traverse. And story also stated multiple times that Imaginary Energy course through the universe.

This is consistent with Hi3 imaginary space explanation where it stated imaginary spaces are all that outside real space.
So OP arguing about Universe only being real space is not true.

But you might ask are these imaginary domains/spaces even scalable? To what?
Well, this scan is talking about imaginary space as well as Void Herrscher Sirin's capability to reflect objects inside imaginary space. The same void herrscher is also stated to have complete mastery over Imaginary space which Otto stated as "membrane" of the imaginary tree. So, these imaginary domains that exist outside real space are the same imaginary space that is described as the membrane of imaginary tree both of which are in rivlary with 11D Sea Of Quanta.
Moreover, even 11D Sea Of Quanta's power isn't capable of breaching through these spaces. 1st scan, 2nd scan

Who scale to this?
--------------------
Ena the order scales to H1-C by seperating reality from imaginary space categorizing real and unreal.

"light of thought" here is referring to Imaginary since once you tore open the void, imaginary will leak into the universe. This is also consistent with Hi3 Project Stigma where reality is fused into imaginary space.

It's basically known as imaginary dimensional bleed. When it happens, the physical world will be assimilated into imaginary space. So Ena's order can order the unordered imaginary space and distinguish the two. Ena being capable of ordering the unordered imaginary space is the same as affecting the chaotic imaginary space significantly.

Xipe, Aeon of Harmony will also scale to Ena because Xipe absorbed Ena.

IX, Aeon of Nihility will also scale to H1-C since IX exists outside Imaginary Tree and IX is one of the four finalities that can end the universe. Harmony is also part of these fours scaling to it.

Fuli, Aeon of Remembrance should also scale to H1-C because it was later revealed as one of the four finalities. Fuli will also recreate the universe after finality. Recreating the universe means recreating both real space and imaginary space scaling to H1-C.

Imaginary domains that are impossible to traverse even with 11D Sea of Quanta power are proven to be able to traversed by Aeons and Emanators.

Also, according to FAQ, I am not very sure but being in existential status that is infinitely superior to lower ones should grant them higher tiers automatically??. Higher dimensions in Honkai are portrayed as R>F without qualitative superiority

In my conclusion, Aeons should scale to H1-C for affecting the universe with imaginary spaces. Irontomb's feat of destroying the universe is explicitly about Real space thus it should be scale to 2-A instead. Thanks for your time. If you have any additional questions about these arguments, feel free to ask so.

@Vietthai96 @Just a Random Butler @Elizhaa @LephyrTheRevanchist @DarkDragonMedeus @Reiner04 @FinePoint

Above are the final summaries from both OP and Weaver.

LephyrTheRevanchist · Apr 9, 2026

Planck69 said:
@Vietthai96 @Just a Random Butler @Elizhaa @LephyrTheRevanchist @DarkDragonMedeus @Reiner04 @FinePoint

Above are the final summaries from both OP and Weaver.

I do not evaluate tier 1.

Weaver261 · Apr 9, 2026

Planck69 said:
Weaver made some good points but reading both of them, I think that 2-A for Aeons would be fine for now.

Would u mind reading this edited part since Honkai has a lot of information and some of the claims from OP's summary can be debunked using new informations that aren't in my summary. I hope you don't mind me adding more information to evaluate

Weaver261 said:
Edited to debunk a few misconception OP is having

SuperNova55555 · Apr 9, 2026

Literally all unsubstantial stuff I've likely alr addressed before. I won't bother since ya'll can just scroll up to see them being answered. And I don't want to continue this back and forth. There's a reason we initially stopped to begin with.

(Also, a GGZ scan is really funny.)

Qawsedf234 · Apr 10, 2026

Reiner04 said:
Your opimion on the thwead will be appreciated

A discussion rule should be added after this that states that any attempts to upgrade or downgrade the franchise from whatever tier is accepted is not allowed. This franchise has had its Tier 2/1 ratings challenged after every single CRT at this point.

Vietthai96 · Apr 10, 2026

LephyrTheRevanchist said:
I do not evaluate tier 1.

~~actually it isn't tier 1 evaluation, tuer 1 was accepted, this is just who is scaling to it and who isn't~~

But anyway, it is another Hoyoverse thread again, this verse sure know how to find its way back to me. Hmmmmmm

I think Sirin should have High 1-C with Spatial Manipulation due to her power is manipulate space, kind of, though i agree with she do not have High 1-C for her overall stats, it is ridiculous

About contradiction in HSR and HI3, it is mostly that different characters use
ing the same term with different purpose, it isn't rare, using the same word but referring to a completely different thing. So HI3 didn't use Universe to referring to the Tree while HSR did that is not really a contradiction. And in reality, the term Universe is more nuance than what we always think of it, Universe just mean all that is out there, everything that exist.

Though the Physical Plane part is jarring, while it is not present within CN texts, the verse was translated directly in-company, so even if it is somewhat shitty, i don't think the devs themselves somehow was delivering two completely different narrations toward playerbase

So i think a compromise of At least 2-A, possibly/likely High 1-C for Aeon is oke

LephyrTheRevanchist · Apr 10, 2026

Vietthai96 said:
~~actually it isn't tier 1 evaluation, tuer 1 was accepted, this is just who is scaling to it and who isn't~~

"This isn't tier 1! It's just about who scales... To tier 1!"

I see.

SuperNova55555 · Apr 10, 2026

Qawsedf234 said:
A discussion rule should be added after this that states that any attempts to upgrade or downgrade the franchise from whatever tier is accepted is not allowed. This franchise has had its Tier 2/1 ratings challenged after every single CRT at this point.

I’m not sure what specifically “Tier 2/1 ratings” would encompass here, but specifically for the rating of Sea of Quanta and Imaginary Tree as structures I’m fine with restricting CRTs on them.

PlungingThroughTime · Apr 10, 2026

Qawsedf234 said:
A discussion rule should be added after this that states that any attempts to upgrade or downgrade the franchise from whatever tier is accepted is not allowed. This franchise has had its Tier 2/1 ratings challenged after every single CRT at this point.

Perms from Reiner btw.

Making a discussion rule on the Tree and Sea? That's completely fine. I believe it's in a good place right now and won't see a change as Ether Anchors have been properly defined on their functionality and they're blatantly labelled 11-D and are now accepted as 11-D.

However speaking on the franchise part, I oppose this, specifically for the characters and their ratings. I believe this would be a hasty misstep and it's important to talk about why. Lets look at the profiles in Honkai Impact.

Here's Durandal's profile. Everything scales to L1-C because she cuts apart the compactified dimensions of the Ether anchor. This obviously doesn't hold up anymore and needs to be corrected, which we're working on.
The issue is that every single high tier in Hi3 is currently chainscaling from this, here's Mei's profile. Here's Kiana's. You can see the issue at this point, the whole verse chainscales from an outdated feat which we are currently looking to correct. A Durandal sandbox is currently being worked on and we have other feats that will need to be approved further in the game that'll make better scaling for the verse altogether, mainly surrounding the Theatre of Domination. False God Otto's creation feat surrounding the Tree will also want proper evaluation, I'm not sure if it does have it right now, but it's likely sitting around 2-C or 2-A. All we'd require is making a CRT on it and seeing where it lands within Hi3's MWI, with a discussion rule like the one you just suggested this would be impossible.

Simply put there's a lot that requires work because of chainscaling which blatantly no longer holds up, making a discussion rule at this point would leave the characters in a less than satisfactory state and would block a lot of work which is currently in progress, which I feel would be unfair to do to the people currently working on the profiles.
All of the above and I can't even speak for HSR as I'm not up to date and in the associated conversations.

So I think it's important you properly determine what this discussion rule should effect (Aeons, Tree, Sea) and which franchises it should effect:
Are you talking about Hoyo as a whole? Genshin, ZZZ, HSR and HI3, or just HSR, or just HI3, or both? We'd need to know exactly who this discussion rule effects.

SuperNova55555 · Apr 10, 2026

PlungingThroughTime said:
Here's Durandal's profile. Everything scales to L1-C because she cuts apart the compactified dimensions of the Ether anchor. This obviously doesn't hold up anymore and needs to be corrected, which we're working on.

I mentioned ts in the OP as well

SuperNova55555 said:
(Also this feat of Durandal should be nuked, as Bubble Worlds can be any size, from as small as a Tree like the Seed of Sumeru, up to a Universe. Likely around Tier 4, since we do see the Sun inside the Bubble World and Otto did mention in the VN that you could find a Bubble World the size of the Solar System, so it makes very little narrative sense for it to be referring to something else. Since the goal originally was just to find a replica of earth.)

Qawsedf234 · Apr 10, 2026

PlungingThroughTime said:
So I think it's important you properly determine what this discussion rule should effect (Aeons, Tree, Sea) and which franchises it should effect:
Are you talking about Hoyo as a whole? Genshin, ZZZ, HSR and HI3, or just HSR, or just HI3, or both? We'd need to know exactly who this discussion rule effects.

Whatever franchise uses this cosmology can't change the current rating without new evidence. So it's staying at 4D+7 and 11D.

SuperNova55555 · Apr 10, 2026

Vietthai96 said:
I think Sirin should have High 1-C with Spatial Manipulation due to her power is manipulate space

Initially forgot to respond to this but like… are we sure that Sirin can manipulate the entirety of the Tree? Cuz High 1-C here is functionally the whole cosmology.

It seems… so absurd almost.

Vietthai96 · Apr 11, 2026

SuperNova55555 said:
Initially forgot to respond to this but like… are we sure that Sirin can manipulate the entirety of the Tree? Cuz High 1-C here is functionally the whole cosmology.

It seems… so absurd almost.

We don't know for sure, but i can't handwaving away the statement simply because, it seems absurd; it is absurd to me too, but the statement is literally that she can control IS, and right now we don't anti-feat or statement that say otherwise.

What about possibly High 1-C with Spatial Manipulation?

SuperNova55555 · Apr 11, 2026

Vietthai96 said:
We don't know for sure, but i can't handwaving away the statement simply because, it seems absurd; it is absurd to me too, but the statement is literally that she can control IS, and right now we don't anti-feat or statement that say otherwise.

What about possibly High 1-C with Spatial Manipulation?

I mean the statement is “complete mastery”? Can’t it really just be assumed to be her proficiency to manipulate Imaginary Space rather than her being intrinsically capable of manipulating all of it at the same time? Because the former here doesn’t necessitate the latter.

Cuz the issue is that if this were completely true… I’m not really sure how Sirin isn’t borderline omnipotent. Her powers would pretty much mean she controls all of Honkai, which is js…

Mbpoops · Apr 11, 2026

Are Aeons getting kicked out of Tier 1? (Staff Version)

2-A: Multiverse level+​

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