I don’t see how they’ve gotten that much stronger—that’s the main point.
If they got stronger at all, CRT is done, doesn't work. They got stronger.
Being able to withstand 14 All-Out attacks still seems exaggerated.
Doesn't matter, also not how that works, damage isn't linear like that, not how this wiki works. And argument from disbelief, isn't an argument, he could withstand a 1000, I don't care, if that's what evidence suggests, it is what it is.
Honestly, we haven’t seen clear training from them or how exactly they were stomped.
We literally do, we get a panel of them getting one shot almost and running away mid-training.
It’s only stated that Aira didn’t lose while the others did, and after the training, Aira pointed out each person’s weaknesses. But if they didn’t address those weaknesses after the training, they would still lose anyway.
That doesn't matter, they still got stronger because they said they did. Obviously, focusing on aspects they want to progress on is good, this doesn't change that they got stronger.
The key point is, I see more importance in them addressing their weaknesses. They might have gotten stronger, but I still don’t see clear evidence of that strength. I don’t know—it feels like they aren’t much different from before, as it’s evident they focused more on strategy and overcoming their weaknesses than sheer power.
How you feel doesn't matter. They did, if ANY increase exists, this CRT doesn't work.
Them adressing weaknesses, doesn't detract from the stat gains, which explicitly did happen.
Unless you can prove it's negligible, which you can't mind you, I just reread that whole fiasco, nothing implies it was minor, this CRT doesn't work.
You said they trained in all aspects, so the results should be visible in all aspects.
Evidently given they're stated to have got stronger.
You claim that Mantis has become much tougher, but honestly, there’s no concrete evidence showing how much tougher he has become.
Doesn't matter, they
literally say he got tougher. And the fact he went into the fight believing he would win, implies it was substantial.
the burden is on you to prove he's basically the same, flatout concrete proof exists he got stronger.
What we see in the story is that his strength hasn’t changed significantly, and his training never seemed to focus on durability either. I think using unclear or completely unmentioned feats isn’t something I fully agree with.
We are told he trained estensively.
We are told he got tougher due to this training.
He went into a fight he got stomped in, believing he would win, this directly indicating he believed his gains were enough to bridge a stomp.
We outright see them do better (Got one shot previously, now he can do a drawnout fight).
Mantis himself outright states that he doesn't think he has a chance at all against them mid-training, but by the end he does.
Unmentioned feats? Lad, if they train, explicitly got stronger, that's all there is to it. It's clear enough. What isn't clear, would be trying to claim it's so negligible that Okarun gets a 100x buff with an attack because you'd need to disregard the facts we do know to claim as such.
There needs to be something clearly indicating how much tougher he has become.
Otherway around, we know they got stronger. Your entire premise hinges on the fact he didn't.
In the context, Mantis hasn’t gotten significantly stronger to such a degree, and from what we’ve seen of his training, it still focuses on addressing weaknesses.
Again, not how this works. You don't decide that.
He got stronger, this invalidates your CRT. There isn't anything left to say.
What we see, is them training. You're taking Aira yapping about things they aren't good a, and assuming that's the only thing that changed, it isn't, we know it isn't because they SAY they got way tougher too. Even she makes note of that, why cherry pick statements? Both can be true, both ARE true, you're just ignoring some.
Being unable to withstand even one All-Out attack but then developing to endure 14 All-Out attacks is truly a massive leap in progression.
They literally go from like low tier 8 to town level, a gap of like hundred times, by barely doing anything. This isn't gonna fly.
There was progression. This is also ignoring he withstood the All-Out Attack far better than he did the Kur's. He was beaten bloody and bruised while he didn't actually take any real damage from Okarun, just knocked on his ass.
Shouldn’t he stay at the same level if it can’t be proven?
No? It's unquantifiable. We know he isn't the same level. It isn't up for debate, he IS stronger, he IS tougher, they say this.
We can't say how much, but the fact that he isn't the same is fact. Your CRT needs for him to be the same yet he isn't.
You also can’t prove how much tougher Mantis has become, because it’s never stated. His punching strength is still the same. The only improvement we actually see from the training is his ability to punch more accurately, which is explicitly shown to be effective.
I'm not doing this with you. They
literally say he got tougher.
All you're doing is saying "no", out of incredulity, because you can not believe he got much tougher. That isn't an argument. That won't fly. If he got tougher, the CRT doesn't work.
Honestly, it’s not like they were completely overwhelmed by the Kur to the point where they couldn’t do anything against them, like being one-shot or the Kur having an overwhelmingly massive power advantage over them—except for Jiji, who was genuinely weak before the training. They were still able to put up a fight, but the result was just a loss.
Here's Mantis saying they'll never beat them 2 days into training.
Rokuro flat out states they absolutely have no chance on winning at the start of training as they are now.
I could go on, they say it a bunch.
None of them could do a thing before training, there wasn't a fight, it was a stomp, Even in the simulation they were getting mogged to the point it wasn't even close.
By the end of training, they fully believe they have a good chance and can win. It is substantial, they bridged a a stomp gap in 5 days, at least, from their PoV.
If, for example, the Kur were a 50, and they started at a 1, and by the end they hit a 25, they'd still lose to the Kur, but that doesn't detract from them being far better than they were to a notable degree and can now contend with them. We don't know the actual numbers, but we don't need to, it's on YOU to prove the number is negligible. "I don't think-" isn't an argument, we know it was a major gap, we know they bridged said gap.
Yes, they needed to get stronger to win, but look at their fights after the training—it was still very difficult for them to defeat the Kur. I understand your perspective, but what I’m trying to convey is, ‘They didn’t get that much stronger.’ I really don’t have any other way to explain it more clearly than this.
I am looking I just reread the whole arc. They got manhandled.
Evil Eye was
one shot. And Aira, had to flee and ended up in literal rags and covered in her own blood. She took a few hits sure, but her main point isn't be tanky, Mantis on the other hand in the very battle we're talking about, is noted to be the toughest organism he's ever seen, and Mantis himself says his speciality is being tanky.
The fact Aira still did way better post training compared to initially, and attacks that crippled her initially did less so, afterward.
Burden of proof is on you here.
Mantis did get stronger, but in context, he didn’t get strong enough to endure 14 All-Out attacks. That’s something that shouldn’t have happened.
Based on what?
You're just saying "nope". Honestly, probably would, every single attack that Kur did to him, did
more damage compared to Okarun's all-out at the time. They were ripping his skin off, putting gashes in his flesh. Okarun didn't do that.
You said it’s speculation, and that’s true, but it’s more reasonable than Mantis, who couldn’t withstand even one All-Out attack, suddenly developing to the point where he can endure up to 2 All-Out attacks. But 14 times? That’s still too much. I still haven’t seen any clear feats showing that he has become that much tougher.
That isn't how this works. We don't speculate. Extraordinary claims, require extraordinary evidence. 100x non-stated buff value for Okarun, is extraordinary, especially because to arrive at that conlcusion, you need to use a character post training who got tougher. All while ignoring the attacks he was taking were dealing more damage to him anyway.
Based on the first reply, Mantis shouldn’t have been so weak that he couldn’t do anything against the Kur. Even though we didn’t see the fight, I don’t think the battle would have ended so quickly, because he had previously fought Aira.
He LITERALLY says himself he would never be able to beat them at the state he's in now.
This is stated by multiple characters even.
And it is shown they get negged diff in training.
Rokuro believes as they are, they legit can't do a thing.
By the end, they believe they can win, based on their previous fight, and were stated to have gotten a stat increase.
The fight with Aira lasted not even 3 minutes initially, and that was her running for most of it. They give a time, they got stomped bad.
Of course, Aira didn’t lose because of her agility and ability to avoid attacks. But as for the other three, they were easy targets for attacks, and their weaknesses were apparent, so it’s no surprise why they lost before.
She ended that fight covered in blood and running away. She didn't win, she didn't even contend, she was tossed around casually by dudes not even trying and forced to disengage and collapsed.
Weaknesses don't matter, they literally say they got stronger, ignoring it or trying to say it wasn't enough to matter, despite the fact it literally ended up mattering.
Short attack range, running out of stamina, weak attacks, or missing their target—these were the main reasons for their defeat. They didn’t lose because of a vast difference in their stats but rather due to their focus on strategy and addressing their weaknesses.
This isn't even true, we're told some of the attacks could one shot them.
This, again, doesn't change the fact they got noticeably stronger. What are you even arguing? Because a bunch of stuff sucked, only that mattered? This isn't an argument, we are TOLD they got a stat buff, and it's notable.
Sure, they trained because they were being overwhelmed, but the story doesn’t emphasize that simply training will solve everything. It’s not just about training to increase physical strength, but they were also working on addressing their weaknesses that led to their previous defeats.
And? If they got stronger at all CRT doesn't work. You're actively trying to say it was negligible. It wasn't. Just because they also fixed out blatant weaknesses, doesn't detract from the fact they got stronger too. Both are true, but if if both are true, the CRT doesn't work.
If their training only involved increasing mundane strength, they wouldn’t think they had a chance to win. After all, the Kur would still overpower them, still facetank their attacks, and so on.
And yet that isn't what happened. They were doing meaningful damage now, they were taking attacks better, they have a stated buff. It is what it is.
The story doesn’t show every detail of their training, but the results indicate they made progress in key areas, giving them a better chance to win, not just from gaining durability or strength alone.
Again, it happened, if it happened CRT don't work. We don't need to know every detail, we just need to be told it happened, which it did.
Anyway, it should be discussed first. The issue hasn’t even been clearly explained yet. If you’re going to call it a problem but haven’t even talked about it, that shouldn’t be the case.
Because it circles back around? They can hurt characters that can tank the All-Out Attack, with normal attacks. This would dictate their normal attacks scale almost 100x above their normal attacks?
I just misunderstood because of the image you provided earlier, and I checked it, so it’s fine now.
It’s clear that was an attack in the water. They couldn’t do that on land. If they tried, their arms would explode like Serpo Dover Demon Nessie. That shouldn’t be considered durability.
The Kur, is not a Pistol Shrimp. And that still requires third law. Water mitigates, it doesn't nullify.
I could look into the actual physics of that bug if need be, it's a water beetle is it not?
That’s based on AP, not Dura. Their durability hasn’t increased. If it was about increasing AP in the water, I don’t think I said anything that’s hard to understand. If Kur’s durability truly increased by 100 times, he shouldn’t be taking heavy damage from an attack that’s only 10 times stronger.
Lad, you know this argument is self-sabotaging right? This means 10x gap was able to nearly kill someone, doing far, far, more damage compared to Okarun's all out attack does to his foes who were otherwise comparable. So, ok, let's say the Kur is 100% static in durability.
This is what a 10x AP gap does to someone in DDD, blows a hole through them.
Yet you want to take Mantis, post-training, surviving 100x gaps (Mind you, that isn't actually true, the Kur getting 100x stronger doesn't mean he's 100x stronger than Mantis,
who was able to overpower the Kur on land, he just got overwhelmed due to the energy blades and attack frequency, but based on what we actually see, Mantis might have had the AP advantage? Not that changes anything), to scale that back to a different character for blindsiding Mantis who was weaker at the time.
Even if we ignore every caveat, this is still a contradiction in that very same scene with a one shot gap being 100x, and instead be 10x.
Saying they “got tougher” doesn’t prove they can withstand much stronger attacks. Toughness can mean many things, not just durability. They’ve made progress, but it’s unclear how much they’ve actually improved in withstanding damage.
No it's literally durability. Every instance of toughness used in that arc, is in reference to durability. Why would that be the
sole exception.
Well, it’s not surprising that Kur would say that since he’s never faced Mantis before. Honestly, I still don’t quite understand how what you’re saying affects the All-Out 100x.
Because Mantis's durability is exceptional? It's huge.
It's literally his best trait because he says so himself, the Kur states his toughness is unlike any organism he's seen and that his ability to withstand powerful attacks exceeds others.
He trained, he got tougher. He is not the standard.
As I mentioned earlier, it makes sense because it’s not a difference of 2.4 times, but a difference of 240 times. Kur didn’t increase his durability; he only increased his AP.
If you legitimately argue that, All-Out Attack would be less than a 10x gap, as that 10x punch blew out the Kur's back, while Okarun's all out on mantis didn't even scuff him.
He was severely injured by Kur’s slash earlier. It’s not surprising that he got wounded from this attack because it was a slash, and it didn’t even increase by 100x, so it’s not unusual. He still got scars.
Being wounded doesn't mean you take more damage as you otherwise would, his durability doesn't fluctuate like that. If he was beaten bloody, a 10 joule attack wouldn't suddenly hurt him more, it'd still do nothing.
Those ain't scars, it's active battle damage, and he's being brutalized by the 100x gap.
But the 100x increase in the beating hasn’t shown any visible damage or wounds. He can still move and endure it, unlike Okarun’s All-Out, where he couldn’t move at all due to exhaustion.
He literally just finished training. He's tougher now, he is not the same Mantis that Okarun fought, and mind you, blindsided (his all out attack took him by surprise).
The 100x beating did deal visible damage, what are you talking about? It was brutal.
He barely moved, he threw one punch. And then transformed for one punch.
This also just like, he was fine? Just because his stamina was bad at the time, a fact that was seemingly fixed, doesn't change the fact the attack did less actual damage compared to the Kur. I'm not going to comment on the fact Mantis is far more willingly to fight here as opposed to before, nor that while training stamina tends to get improved. But getting a second wind due to Serpo's, doesn't change the fact he was more or less undamaged, compared to the Kur.
I’ve already argued these points earlier, so I don’t want to repeat myself.
The argument was insufficient you need to prove it's completely negligible, and not even excuse the 10x one shot contradiction you've unintentionally made a factor. Burden is on you.
I went back to check, or can we scale Okarun’s All-Out to 240x, since he was able to one-shot Acrobatic Silky, whose power was passed on to Aira, who can withstand attacks up to 240 times? Of course, it’s clear that Acrobatic Silky’s body is much stronger than Aira’s. This is just a rough question, and I may explain this point further later.
You can't do either. This isn't how the wiki works.
Also as an fyi
Mantis is literally just far more durable compared to everyone, he was tanking attacks that would kill Jiji and Aira in his own base, all while pointing out his toughness is a gift. Okarun's attack didn't actually deal visible damage to him, yet these attacks that would one shot these two, Mantis can tank, though with damage.
Couple that with hard training, confirmed increase in stats, the fact any one shot gap isn't even consistent going by your own proposals (10x mutilated someone in the same scene), etc. And even thinking on it, 100x is subject to contrivences too, the Kur himself says he traded the energy blades for stat buff, we don't have any reason to believe the 100x means he's 100x Mantis, who was shown overpowering the Kur in terms of pure physicality on land, so being 100x his base, might not translate to 100x Mantis as every degree Mantis is above him, directly lowers the ending gap.
This CRT doesn't work, there's so many contrivences that need to be true and to take the most generous interpretation possible, ignore contradictions, all for a massive AP boost that would lead to circular scaling.
I don't even think 10x works given your own arguments and Mantis cripplig a dude with a 10x gap (The Kur could take a hit from him before).
