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Change Angsizing Usage (THIS AFFECTS MORE THAN 1000 CALCULATIONS!!!!!)

Flashlight237 said:
Because providing experimental data that is relevant to the topic at hand and touching on Agnaa's concerns with the workings on camera functionality is "not contributing anything to the discussion"? This is a site-wide revision where any relevant data both current and previous, including my own, should be considered in EQUAL weight if it needs to be done as smoothly as possible. By deliberately claiming someone who has contributed to the discussion didn't contribute to the discussion, you're actively ignoring what was presented, thus stagnating possible avenues where an important revision can go. If you're not going to be civil about it and accept my contributions equally to others' contributions, then I don't know what to do with you. We're all staff members trying to figure out where this should go and how to handle it, and I do not appreciate you leaving me out like that. I provided evidence that I personally had to collect in order to contribute; please do me a kind favor and take it with due diligence.
Click to expand...

It is you who should approach this more seriously and diligently. First, it sounds like you haven't even taken the time to read this OP, yet you brag about answering it.

I will go out of my way to say that this topic is one that I've personally answered to with a 4:3 camera: https://vsbattles.com/threads/angsizing-formula-2-0.171235/post-6700369
Click to expand...


Then, watch how you present your arguments:
ChatGPT? Really? Okay, I would very much prefer to get back into the topic, but that is just... Wow.
Click to expand...

It gives the impression that you are only seeking to contradict instead of taking the discussion seriously.

Furthermore, your experimentation does not seem interesting to me for this discussion, since the important thing here would be to focus on the cinematographic field.
 
I would like to discuss what angle of view could be used for the horizontal FOV, taking into account the following information about the most commonly used lenses in cinema:

35 mm and 50 mm Lenses (Standard Lenses)
  • 35 mm: This lens is considered slightly wide-angle, offering a broad field of view without distorting perspective too much. It is commonly used for indoor scenes or situations where a larger portion of the environment needs to be shown without making objects appear distorted.
  • 50 mm: Considered the standard lens closest to what the human eye sees in terms of perspective. It does not produce distortion and is ideal for medium shots and general takes.

24 mm and 28 mm Lenses (Wide-Angle)
  • 24 mm: Used for wide shots that capture more of the environment. Ideal for landscapes, action scenes, or small interiors where more space needs to be encompassed.
  • 28 mm: This is a wide-angle lens that does not distort as much as more extreme lenses (like the 18 mm), making it suitable for shots where a broad view is needed without distortion.



Lens Focal LengthDiagonalVerticalHorizontal
24mm84.1°53.1°73.7°
28mm75.4°46.4°65.5°
35mm63.4°37.8°54.4°
50mm46.8°27.0°39.6°

Value table source:
en.wikipedia.org

Angle of view (photography) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org
 
Kulf_Boba said:
It is you who should approach this more seriously and diligently. First, it sounds like you haven't even taken the time to read this OP, yet you brag about answering it.




Then, watch how you present your arguments:


It gives the impression that you are only seeking to contradict instead of taking the discussion seriously.

Furthermore, your experimentation does not seem interesting to me for this discussion, since the important thing here would be to focus on the cinematographic field.
Click to expand...
While I agree that the method and phrasing on Flashlight's behalf shouldn't be as it is, I would also suggest, for future formal discussions you'd like to have, to avoid citing Chat GPT. It simply isn't a reliable enough source to be taken seriously. As far as I'm aware, this was substantiating evidence, not your full evidence, that was hailed from GPT: as such, it's not a big deal, but it really is entirely irrelevant what it concocts to say.
 
Mr. Bambu said:
While I agree that the method and phrasing on Flashlight's behalf shouldn't be as it is, I would also suggest, for future formal discussions you'd like to have, to avoid citing Chat GPT. It simply isn't a reliable enough source to be taken seriously. As far as I'm aware, this was substantiating evidence, not your full evidence, that was hailed from GPT: as such, it's not a big deal, but it really is entirely irrelevant what it concocts to say.
Click to expand...
The information I provided from ChatGPT is easily verifiable through simple searches, and I had previously corroborated it. I do not intend to use ChatGPT as a primary source. I cited the information it provided because I felt its explanation of the most commonly used lenses in cinema was suitable for summarizing what can be found online.
 
Kulf_Boba said:
The information I provided from ChatGPT is easily verifiable through simple searches
Click to expand...
Then use information from those simple searches instead.
Kulf_Boba said:
and I had previously corroborated it.
Click to expand...
Going through your posts from before that, I can't find that.

But if you did, then there was no reason to have ChatGPT reiterate it.
Kulf_Boba said:
I do not intend to use ChatGPT as a primary source. I cited the information it provided because I felt its explanation of the most commonly used lenses in cinema was suitable for summarizing what can be found online.
Click to expand...
We don't trust LLMs to summarize things without confabulations. Summarize it yourself, direct us towards the full explanations, or direct us to a summary done by another person.
 
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Agnaa said:
Then use information from those simple searches instead.
Click to expand...
If necessary, I will do it.

I have already provided these sources before:
  1. https://www.tutti.space/blog/quick-guide-to-cinematic-and-cine-lenses
  2. https://artlist.io/blog/cinematic-f...UACHdhkxRO41RD6nWKVz1sX-tQ9xoALxoCJkcQAvD_BwE
  3. https://www.studiobinder.com/blog/different-types-camera-lenses-explained/
Agnaa said:
Going through your posts from before that, I can't find that.
Click to expand...
I said that I had corroborated them, not that I had initially published them.
Agnaa said:
But if you did, then there was no reason to have ChatGPT reiterate it.
Click to expand...
I already explained the reason why I used the information provided by ChatGPT.
Agnaa said:
We don't trust LLMs to summarize things without confabulations. Summarize it yourself, direct us towards the full explanations, or direct us to a summary done by another person.
Click to expand...
Well, I do trust in this case, because it is adequate information and I have already corroborated that it is correct.
 
You trust it, cool, but we don't; so I'd still suggest listening to myself and the three other users that have advised against using LLMs as part of your posts in the future.
 
Kulf_Boba said:
It is you who should approach this more seriously and diligently. First, it sounds like you haven't even taken the time to read this OP, yet you brag about answering it.
Click to expand...
I wasn't bragging, I literally did answer it. The entire argument concerns different FOVs, and the link I provided is experimentation using an everyday camera (in that case, a Google Pixel 8, which is more close-at-home to everyday situations). That's another example of a different FOV, one that clearly is outside the film industry as most people's cameras are not the kind used to film the likes of Jaws, The Matrix, Independence Day, and even recent films like The Avengers: Endgame and Wakanda Forever. In fact, what isn't serious and diligent is your decision to cherry-pick a select few sentences out of several entire posts, which I have taken the entire discussion seriously and diligently up to this point despite my wording. My response to the ChatGPT thing is the point where my switch flipped to condescending mode since, like others have pointed out, is not something that should even be considered a reliable source, and I don't like how it is worded as a reliable source.
Kulf_Boba said:
It gives the impression that you are only seeking to contradict instead of taking the discussion seriously.

Furthermore, your experimentation does not seem interesting to me for this discussion, since the important thing here would be to focus on the cinematographic field.
Click to expand...
My dude, both supporting AND contradictory points are serious points in a debate. You can't bolster an argument by only choosing the supporting parts. And furthermore, most people aren't IN the cinematographic field; in fact, we literally had members in this thread even say that they aren't professional photographers, never mind filmographers. You can't expect them to have the same level of tech LucasFilms used.

Also, you literally brought up video games in the OP, something that ignores cinematography entirely as, as I've pointed out in one of my posts, video games rely on the capabilities of the game engine, something programmers would need to handle in order to get it to work. You don't film a game, you program a camera into the game. Look at GTA IV; you can see a clear example of the cameras being programmed by getting the character drunk and watching the camera wave around in response. This isn't including the more questionable stuff you see in video games like the Fuzzies from Yoshi's Island basically making the camera not see in Mode 7.

Also, outside of a live action film or a professional photographer's work, you can't expect everyday situations to make use of a professional-grade camera. At best, you can assume they were filmed with a Camcorder, maybe, and even then, an iPhone or an Android would be more at home with everyday situations camera-wise than a professional film-studio camera. I don't expect Garfield comic frames to have been taken using a professional-grade camera because of this logic. Even then, our decision to use 70° for the vertical FOV is entirely based on the FOV of a human eye looking dead-on at an object, not the work done for the MCU. You can't invalidate someone because they don't own or have not rented a film studio.
 
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As I've said, I am not a reliable source in determining the outcome of this thread, I merely believe that it is important to do so. I would rather it not be sidetracked by the discussion of AI involvement or tone policing, as the issue at hand is more important than either of those.
 
Flashlight237 said:
I wasn't bragging, I literally did answer it. The entire argument concerns different FOVs, and the link I provided is experimentation using an everyday camera (in that case, a Google Pixel 8, which is more close-at-home to everyday situations). That's another example of a different FOV, one that clearly is outside the film industry as most people's cameras are not the kind used to film the likes of Jaws, The Matrix, Independence Day, and even recent films like The Avengers: Endgame and Wakanda Forever. In fact, what isn't serious and diligent is your decision to cherry-pick a select few sentences out of several entire posts, which I have taken the entire discussion seriously and diligently up to this point despite my wording. My response to the ChatGPT thing is the point where my switch flipped to condescending mode since, like others have pointed out, is not something that should even be considered a reliable source, and I don't like how it is worded as a reliable source.
Click to expand...
That was a response to a previous proposal. When I presented the new proposal in that thread, you didn't make any concrete comments regarding it. Then you introduced your experiment in this new context as if it were a response to my proposal, but you didn't explain how it impacts or affects the ideas presented.

  1. The sizing calculations should use the panel length (not the panel height) in scans of movies and series, preferably at 70°, as it falls within the range of the most common viewing angles in cinema.
  2. In video games, the standard for the horizontal field of view (FOV) is around 70°, so this value should also be used for the panel length unless an exact value is known.
  3. For comic and manga panels, a smaller angle should be used, preferably 40° for the panel height, while panels similar to those in cinema should use 70° for the panel length.
Your experiment is not relevant to the topic of movies and series, as it would be more appropriate to investigate what lenses are commonly used in the film industry. It is also not relevant to video games. For comic and manga panels, it might be relevant; however, you didn’t take the time to properly argue your point. By the way, an extra note is that in your camera, the photos have a horizontal FOV of 70° because the vertical FOV is 55°.
Flashlight237 said:
My dude, both supporting AND contradictory points are serious points in a debate. You can't bolster an argument by only choosing the supporting parts. And furthermore, most people aren't IN the cinematographic field; in fact, we literally had members in this thread even say that they aren't professional photographers, never mind filmographers. You can't expect them to have the same level of tech LucasFilms used.
Click to expand...
I don't consider your points to be contradictions; I simply think they are not relevant. If we are discussing the FOVs used in series and movies, I believe it would be more appropriate to provide information within the cinematographic context.
Flashlight237 said:
Also, you literally brought up video games in the OP, something that ignores cinematography entirely as, as I've pointed out in one of my posts, video games rely on the capabilities of the game engine, something programmers would need to handle in order to get it to work. You don't film a game, you program a camera into the game. Look at GTA IV; you can see a clear example of the cameras being programmed by getting the character drunk and watching the camera wave around in response. This isn't including the more questionable stuff you see in video games like the Fuzzies from Yoshi's Island basically making the camera not see in Mode 7.
Click to expand...
I didn't mention anything about video games in relation to cinematography. What I mentioned was that the horizontal FOV in video games usually hovers around 70°, and that you should use that value as a standard or, alternatively, check the settings to see what type of FOV is being used. For video games, the discussion seems straightforward; at most, one could talk about the horizontal FOV, which should be used as a standard when an exact value is unknown.
Flashlight237 said:
Also, outside of a live action film or a professional photographer's work, you can't expect everyday situations to make use of a professional-grade camera. At best, you can assume they were filmed with a Camcorder, maybe, and even then, an iPhone or an Android would be more at home with everyday situations camera-wise than a professional film-studio camera.
Click to expand...
This would be relevant if we were analyzing feats filmed with a mobile phone camera.
Flashlight237 said:
I don't expect Garfield comic frames to have been taken using a professional-grade camera because of this logic. Even then, our decision to use 70° for the vertical FOV is entirely based on the FOV of a human eye looking dead-on at an object, not the work done for the MCU. You can't invalidate someone because they don't own or have not rented a film studio.
Click to expand...
Wasn't the value of 70° supposed to be based on the common FOV of modern cameras?

The idea is not to assume that comic panels were captured with professional-quality cameras, but rather to apply an appropriate FOV for the type of panel, using the FOVs employed in cinema and photography as a reference to maximize their utility. For example, a horizontal FOV of 70° is achieved with lenses considered wide-angle, which are used in cinema and photography to create panoramic shots, capture narrow interiors, or achieve a sense of depth and closeness in scenes. These lenses are perfect for landscapes, architecture, and situations where more elements need to be included in the frame; therefore, it doesn't make much sense to use them for the height of panels like these:

 
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My opinion is pretty much the same as Bambu and Agnaa, I do not have the knowledge required to accurately suggest much here. Obviously, any angular size calc where the distance can be proven incorrect should be disregarded. However, our rules already cover stuff like this to begin with.

These are the summarized points of the OP, correct? I think I understand this, but I don't want to assume right now.

Maybe the OP should show their suggestions in action? Show why that would be more accurate than our current methods.

I imagine it'd be easier to understand your points if one could see them in a calculation.
 
TheRustyOne said:
Maybe the OP should show their suggestions in action? Show why that would be more accurate than our current methods.

I imagine it'd be easier to understand your points if one could see them in a calculation.
Click to expand...
I have already explained the reasons why my proposal is more accurate, but likewise, I will present several calculations below to allow for a more detailed comparison:

Movies and Series​

7sUvrWM.png

Black Adam: 88px | 1.95m
Panel Height: 804px
Panel Width: 1920px

Distance to Black Adam (70° Vertical FoV): 1.95 * 804/(88 * 2 * tan(70deg/2)) = 12.7m
Distance to Black Adam (70° Horizontal FoV): 1.95 * 1920/(88 * 2 * tan(70deg/2)) = 30.3m

ZSbDRz2.jpeg

Earth: 1411px | 12,742 km
Panel Height: 1080px

Distance to the center of the Earth (70° Vertical FoV): 12,742 * 1080/(1411 * 2 * tan(70deg/2)) = 6964.3 km
Distance to the Surface: 6964.3 - 6371 = 593.3 km (Subtracting Earth's radius)

Distance to the center of the Earth (70° Horizontal FoV): 12,742 * 1920/(1411 * 2 * tan(70deg/2)) = 12,380 km
Distance to the Surface: 12,380 - 6371 = 6009 km

Games​

I don't know Spider-Man's horizontal FoV, so I will assume a default of 70°.
UjOipqJ.png

Sandman: 32.57px | 24.93m
Panel Height: 720px
Panel Width: 1280px

Distance to Sandman (70° Vertical FoV): 24.93 * 720/(32.57 * 2 * tan(70deg/2)) = 393m

Distance to Sandman (70° Horizontal FoV): 24.93 * 1280/(32.57 * 2 * tan(70deg/2)) = 699.61m

The second method matches the distance indicated by the game where Sandman is after this panel, which is 640 meters away.

Comics​

DmrXeRC.png

Electro's Head: 24px | 0.225m
Panel Height: 369px

Distance to Electro (70°): 0.225 * 369/(24 * 2 * tan(70deg/2)) = 2.47m

Distance to Electro (40°): 0.225 * 369/(24 * 2 * tan(40deg/2)) = 4.75m

hAl5fB7.jpeg

Sam Wilson: 430px | 1.88m
Panel Height: 900px
Panel Width: 1827px

Distance to Sam (70° Vertical FoV): 1.88 * 900/(430 * 2 * tan(70deg/2)) = 2.8m

Distance to Sam (70° Horizontal FoV): 1.88 * 1827/(430 * 2 * tan(70deg/2)) = 5.7m

Manga​

x0KBLa7.png

Maki Zen'in: 114px | 1.7m
Panel Height: 903px

Distance to Maki (70°): 1.7 * 903/(114 * 2 * tan(70deg/2)) = 9.6m

Distance to Maki (40°): 1.7 * 903/(114 * 2 * tan(40deg/2)) = 18.49m

rAIx1qB.jpeg

Tatsumaki: 61.32px | 1.35m
Panel Height: 509px

Distance to Tatsumaki (70°): 1.35 * 509/(61.32 * 2 * tan(70deg/2)) = 8m

Distance to Tatsumaki (40°): 1.35 * 509/(61.32 * 2 * tan(40deg/2)) = 15.39m

UaDFDL4.jpeg

Panel Height: 397px
Panel Width: 995px
Monster: 10px | 1.7m

Distance to monsters (70° Vertical FoV): 1.7 * 397/(10 * 2 * tan(70deg/2)) = 48.19m
Distance to monsters (70° Horizontal FoV): 1.7 * 995/(10 * 2 * tan(70deg/2)) = 120.7m

7dGu6M3.png

Explosion: 133px
Panel Height: 250px
Panel Width: 722px
Distance to the Explosion: 20 km

Explosion Diameter (70° Vertical FoV): 2 * tan(70deg/2) * 20 * 133/250 = 14.9 km
Explosion Diameter (70° Horizontal FoV): 2 * tan(70deg/2) * 20 * 133/722 = 5.15 km
 
Some of these don't actually seem more accurate under your proposal, to be honest with you.

Take the first manga one for example. The character scaled is 7 tiles away from the POV- probably add 1 or 1.5 to account for ground leading to the POV's feet, which is out of sight. Each tile, though, is self-evidently shorter than the human (Maki) being scaled (per your suggestion, 1.7 meters). This means that under this approximation, and even generously (and obviously wrongly) assuming the tiles are equal to this character's height, the character is at most 14.45 meters away- damn near the middle point of the two results you gave. In reality, the distance is certainly even less.

Now, I chose to inspect this one because there was an easily grabbed measuring stick that did not require me to bust out any programs to check pixels directly. I would wager, then, that the others at least have a high possibility of being similarly flawed under inspection. Is it possible that 40 degrees isn't as sufficient a solution as you think?
 
Mr. Bambu said:
Some of these don't actually seem more accurate under your proposal, to be honest with you.

Take the first manga one for example. The character scaled is 7 tiles away from the POV- probably add 1 or 1.5 to account for ground leading to the POV's feet, which is out of sight. Each tile, though, is self-evidently shorter than the human (Maki) being scaled (per your suggestion, 1.7 meters). This means that under this approximation, and even generously (and obviously wrongly) assuming the tiles are equal to this character's height, the character is at most 14.45 meters away- damn near the middle point of the two results you gave. In reality, the distance is certainly even less.

Now, I chose to inspect this one because there was an easily grabbed measuring stick that did not require me to bust out any programs to check pixels directly. I would wager, then, that the others at least have a high possibility of being similarly flawed under inspection. Is it possible that 40 degrees isn't as sufficient a solution as you think?
Click to expand...
I got the pixel scaling from another calculation, and I verified that the girl's height was incorrect, it was actually 142px:

The grid squares measure 0.658m, and the characters we see near the panel should be around 8 squares away.

Distance: 0.658 * 8 = 5.26m

For the formula to give a similar distance, the field of view should be close to 85°, which seems quite exaggerated. The grid squares were probably not drawn accurately, or if a calculation is made, it would be better to rely on that rather than use the angsizing.

Distance to Maki: 1.7 * 903/(142 * 2 * tan(85deg/2)) = 5.89m

Distance to the girl near the panel: 0.24 * 903/(350 * 2 * tan(85deg/2)) = 0.33m

Distance between characters: 5.89 - 0.33m = 5.56m
 
In the other examples that use 40°, the value seems more precise to me:

Comics​

DmrXeRC.png

Electro's Head: 24px | 0.225m (measures 1.8m)
Daredavil Head: 87px | 0.225m (measures 1.8m)
Panel Height: 369px

Distance to Electro (70°): 0.225 * 369/(24 * 2 * tan(70deg/2)) = 2.47m
Distance to Daredavil (70°): 0.225 * 369/(87 * 2 * tan(70deg/2)) = 0.681m
Distance between characters: 2.47-0.681 = 1.78m

Distance to Electro (40°): 0.225 * 369/(24 * 2 * tan(40deg/2)) = 4.75m
Distance to Daredavil (40°): 0.225 * 369/(87 * 2 * tan(40deg/2)) = 1.31m
Distance between characters: 4.75-1.31 = 3.44m

Manga​

rAIx1qB.jpeg

Tatsumaki: 61.32px | 1.35m
PPP Head: 47px | 0.31m (measures 2.2m)

Panel Height: 509px

Distance to Tatsumaki (70°): 1.35 * 509/(61.32 * 2 * tan(70deg/2)) = 8m
Distance to PPP (70°): 0.31 * 509/(47 * 2 * tan(70deg/2)) = 2.39m
Distance between characters: 8-2.39 = 5.6m

Distance to Tatsumaki (40°): 1.35 * 509/(61.32 * 2 * tan(40deg/2)) = 15.39m
Distance to PPP (40°): 0.31 * 509/(47 * 2 * tan(70deg/2)) = 4.61m
Distance between characters: 15.39-4.61 = 10.7m
 
Using Marvel's Spider-Man (PC), I'm able to see if using horizontal or vertical pixel size is more accurate. I do not know the FOV as the game doesn't tell you, you can change the FOV but the slider doesn't actually say what the FOV is. It's just a slider that goes from -25 to 25, with 0 being the default.

Scan 1

Spider-Man's Height = 177.8 cm or 5'10 (268 px)

Window Height = 436.538 cm or 4.36538 m (658 px)

Scan 2

As you can see there, the actual distance is 236 meters.

Window Height = 4.36538 m (28 px)

Screen Height/Length = 1080px and 1920px respectively.

Pixel Height Angular Size = 4.36538*1080/[28*2*tan(70deg/2)] = 120.235 m

Pixel Length Angular Size = 4.36538*1920/[28*2*tan(70deg/2)] = 213.751 m

In this case, using the horizontal length gave me a more accurate result. So I believe in cases like this, we should use the horizontal length. Obviously it's not exact, but we already acknowledge that angular size is a bit inaccurate. Although, there could be issues on my scaling as well, which could change the results.

Obviously in this case we can get the true distance, but I did this just to see what was more correct.

So I agree we should use the horizontal screen length for stuff like this.

Note: I cannot give any opinion on the different degrees, I'll leave that to more knowledgeable members. Although the OP is only suggesting 40 degrees for comic and manga panels, and that's only for panels that don't have paneling similar to a 16:9 aspect ratio. I agree with using the horizontal length for that stuff as well.

It's also possible I'm just being super dumb here, so obviously I'll be paying attention to what everyone has to say. I'm trying to understand here.
 
Kulf_Boba said:

Games​

I don't know Spider-Man's horizontal FoV, so I will assume a default of 70°.
UjOipqJ.png

Sandman: 32.57px | 24.93m
Panel Height: 720px
Panel Width: 1280px

Distance to Sandman (70° Vertical FoV): 24.93 * 720/(32.57 * 2 * tan(70deg/2)) = 393m

Distance to Sandman (70° Horizontal FoV): 24.93 * 1280/(32.57 * 2 * tan(70deg/2)) = 699.61m

The second method matches the distance indicated by the game where Sandman is after this panel, which is 640 meters away.
Click to expand...
Idk how the game scaled down size. The distance between the towers on the Brooklyn bridge is 486.3 meters. Sandman is flush with the second tower, which means he should be half of that distance from the middle of the bridge. The bridge's parts that are submerged in water or directly over it measure 594.36m, which is the overall width of the East River channel. However, Spidey was 650+ meters away from Sandman and was at the halfway point, or less.

Games scaling down real-life counterparts makes games in the OP's argument a special case. The second angsize method seems more accurate than the game itself if we're trying to find real-life distance and not game distance (given a 100+ meter discrepancy).
 
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Golden_Void said:
Idk how the game scaled down size. The distance between the towers on the Brooklyn bridge is 486.3 meters. Sandman is flush with the second tower, which means he should be half of that distance from the middle of the bridge. The bridge's parts that are submerged in water or directly over it measure 594.36m, which is the overall width of the East River channel. However, Spidey was 650+ meters away from Sandman and was at the halfway point, or less.
Click to expand...
This seems to be because the map is not actually at a 1:1 scale with real life.
Golden_Void said:
Games scaling down real-life counterparts makes games in the OP's argument a special case. The second angsize method seems more accurate than the game itself if we're trying to find real-life distance and not game distance (given a 100+ meter discrepancy).
Click to expand...
If Sandman’s head measures 24.9 meters (according to another user’s scaling) and the game’s horizontal FoV is approximately 70°, the distance calculated with the second method should be fairly accurate. This seems to align with the distance shown later in the game, although I’m not entirely sure how precise it really is.
 
By angsizing the buildings near Sandman, which according to Google Earth are 4.8 meters wide in this section I get this distance:
SStEfpP.png

4.87 * 1280/(6.32 * 2 * tan(70deg/2)) = 704.31m
 
TheRustyOne said:
Using Marvel's Spider-Man (PC), I'm able to see if using horizontal or vertical pixel size is more accurate. I do not know the FOV as the game doesn't tell you, you can change the FOV but the slider doesn't actually say what the FOV is. It's just a slider that goes from -25 to 25, with 0 being the default.

Scan 1

Spider-Man's Height = 177.8 cm or 5'10 (268 px)

Window Height = 436.538 cm or 4.36538 m (658 px)

Scan 2

As you can see there, the actual distance is 236 meters.

Window Height = 4.36538 m (28 px)

Screen Height/Length = 1080px and 1920px respectively.

Pixel Height Angular Size = 4.36538*1080/[28*2*tan(70deg/2)] = 120.235 m

Pixel Length Angular Size = 4.36538*1920/[28*2*tan(70deg/2)] = 213.751 m

In this case, using the horizontal length gave me a more accurate result. So I believe in cases like this, we should use the horizontal length. Obviously it's not exact, but we already acknowledge that angular size is a bit inaccurate. Although, there could be issues on my scaling as well, which could change the results.

Obviously in this case we can get the true distance, but I did this just to see what was more correct.

So I agree we should use the horizontal screen length for stuff like this.

Note: I cannot give any opinion on the different degrees, I'll leave that to more knowledgeable members. Although the OP is only suggesting 40 degrees for comic and manga panels, and that's only for panels that don't have paneling similar to a 16:9 aspect ratio. I agree with using the horizontal length for that stuff as well.

It's also possible I'm just being super dumb here, so obviously I'll be paying attention to what everyone has to say. I'm trying to understand here.
Click to expand...
Thank you for your input; this further supports the use of horizontal FoV in games, which is typically around 70°. However, if you can calculate the size of an object and position it at a specific distance so that it is centered on the screen during a screenshot, I could determine the game's horizontal field of view more accurately.
 
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So I looked into it more and... Someone gauged field of views under a video game setting (the post is made in an MMORPG subreddit) in relation to the thing we see video games through, which is monitors.:



While I ain't sure if the logic here should apply to video games in general or just Planetsides/Planetsides 2 (the thing this is made for), but bottom line is video game FOVs are more dependent on monitors. WIkipedia also went out of their way to show it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Field_of_view_in_video_games

If you prefer horizontal FOVs, 90-100 degrees would be more accurate for a PC game, although I'm not sure if the same logic for 3D games like Planetsides would apply to 2D games like Pizza Tower. Using the formula provided in the Reddit post, a video game's vertical FOV would be more like 59-68° (average 63.5°) if the wiki prefers vertical FOV.

Also, I checked again and... Yeah, I'm slightly off. Vertical field of view for an eye is more like a range, with 60 degrees looking dead-on at the lowest: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Field_of_view

And 70 degrees looking dead-on at the highest: https://www.allaboutvision.com/eye-care/eye-anatomy/what-is-peripheral-vision/

Only a tiny bit above my phone camera, and a little bit closer to video game workings but meh. Problem is when would it be cool to use camera workings for FOV and where would it be acceptable to use eyeball workings, especially in entities that are purely drawn? Imo, I think a human eye's FOV would be more accurate for something seen from a person's point of view since a person clearly isn't a camera. Therefore, for something seen from a person's eyes, it'd be like this:

Low End: object size * panel height in pixels/[object height in pixels*2*tan(60deg/2)]
High End: object size * panel height in pixels/[object height in pixels*2*tan(70deg/2)]

Should point the wiki's own writing on the 70-degree thing as well.:

"By assuming a typical human field of view it allows one to estimate the size of an object if one knows the distance from the point of view or estimate the distance to the point of view if one knows the size of the object."
 
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Flashlight237 said:
So I looked into it more and... Someone gauged field of views under a video game setting (the post is made in an MMORPG subreddit) in relation to the thing we see video games through, which is monitors.:



While I ain't sure if the logic here should apply to video games in general or just Planetsides/Planetsides 2 (the thing this is made for), but bottom line is video game FOVs are more dependent on monitors. WIkipedia also went out of their way to show it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Field_of_view_in_video_games
Click to expand...

In reality, fields of view (FOV) are predetermined and can be either horizontal or vertical. If a game's horizontal FOV is set to 70°, this value will remain the same regardless of the monitor or aspect ratio. However, the vertical and diagonal FOV will change depending on the aspect ratio.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Field_of_view_in_video_games
Flashlight237 said:
If you prefer horizontal FOVs, 90-100 degrees would be more accurate for a PC game, although I'm not sure if the same logic for 3D games like Planetsides would apply to 2D games like Pizza Tower. Using the formula provided in the Reddit post, a video game's vertical FOV would be more like 59-68° (average 63.5°) if the wiki prefers vertical FOV.
Click to expand...
The 90-100 degree range in the post is mentioned as a comfortable value according to many people (FPS gamers), not as something predetermined in games.


Flashlight237 said:
Also, I checked again and... Yeah, I'm slightly off. Vertical field of view for an eye is more like a range, with 60 degrees looking dead-on at the lowest: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Field_of_view

And 70 degrees looking dead-on at the highest: https://www.allaboutvision.com/eye-care/eye-anatomy/what-is-peripheral-vision/

Only a tiny bit above my phone camera, and a little bit closer to video game workings but meh. Problem is when would it be cool to use camera workings for FOV and where would it be acceptable to use eyeball workings, especially in entities that are purely drawn? Imo, I think a human eye's FOV would be more accurate for something seen from a person's point of view since a person clearly isn't a camera. Therefore, for something seen from a person's eyes, it'd be like this:

Low End: object size * panel height in pixels/[object height in pixels*2*tan(60deg/2)]
High End: object size * panel height in pixels/[object height in pixels*2*tan(70deg/2)]

Should point the wiki's own writing on the 70-degree thing as well.:

"By assuming a typical human field of view it allows one to estimate the size of an object if one knows the distance from the point of view or estimate the distance to the point of view if one knows the size of the object."
Click to expand...
It seems that the default approach is to use camera functionality, as comic and manga panels resemble photographs more than something seen from our own perspective. DontTalkDT explained this more clearly when he discussed the origin of the 70° value.
-DontTalkDT
The human eye works in very strange ways. Despite the eyes technically having such a large FoV if one used a camera with such a large FoV to make pictures the pictures would look unnatural for us. (See Fisheye Lens)

For a long time there was a rule of thumb amongst photographers that a lens that produces a picture that looks "natural" to us has a FoV of around 40°. In recent trends that may change, though. For example the iPhone X uses a camera with a 65° horizontal FoV and still looks natural.

(Source: "How To" by Randall Munroe)

Not sure where 70° exactly came from. It's one of the OBD artifacts in our calcs. It doesn't seem too wrong, though, given the above.
Click to expand...
The thing is, things will be drawn or recorded in the way a camera perceives it, as the result is supposed to be a good looking picture. The result is not a visual stimuli send directly into our brain, where a FoV matching our eyes would look better.

For instance, our eyes also perceive things in a very different way regarding resolution:

How to camera
However, nobody would draw a picture in the way our eyes actually see it. Everybody would draw it like a camera does.
Click to expand...
vsbattles.com

Angsize question

By assuming a typical human field of view it allows one to estimate the size of an object if one knows the distance from the point of view or estimate the distance to the point of view if one knows the size of the object. ~ Angular Size My question is, why are we saying a typical...
vsbattles.com vsbattles.com
vsbattles.com

Why is 70 used in angsizing?

Why is 70 used in Angsizing formulas? 2atan(tan(70/2)x(object size in pixels/screen height in pixels)) Distance from viewpoint to object = object size * panel height in pixels / (object height in pixels * 2 * tan(70deg /2))
vsbattles.com vsbattles.com
 
Kulf_Boba said:
In reality, fields of view (FOV) are predetermined and can be either horizontal or vertical. If a game's horizontal FOV is set to 70°, this value will remain the same regardless of the monitor or aspect ratio. However, the vertical and diagonal FOV will change depending on the aspect ratio.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Field_of_view_in_video_games
Click to expand...
Err, how much did you read of my comment if you linked the same Wikipedia article I linked? But that's just a cherry-pick. For things with full-screen and widescreen settings, you typically see the screen get stretched out horizontally, which makes vertical FOV the predetermined one in those cases. Can't say the same for games made when widescreen TVs weren't a thing, though.
Kulf_Boba said:
It seems that the default approach is to use camera functionality, as comic and manga panels resemble photographs more than something seen from our own perspective. DontTalkDT explained this more clearly when he discussed the origin of the 70° value.
Click to expand...
Note this part: "Not sure where 70° exactly came from. It's one of the OBD artifacts in our calcs. It doesn't seem too wrong, though, given the above." The eye anatomy article is the missing part of that equation, where central vision represents looking at a scene dead-on.

Bear in mind, again, our wiki article's statement says "By assuming a typical human field of view it allows one to estimate the size of an object if one knows the distance from the point of view or estimate the distance to the point of view if one knows the size of the object." If it had anything to do with cameras, it would instead say "By assuming a typical camera's field of view it allows one to estimate the size of an object if one knows the distance from the point of view or estimate the distance to the point of view if one knows the size of the object." The eye anatomy article matches the "typical human field of view" thing stated in our wiki article.

The high fields of view for the eye comes from peripheral vision (which comes from the eye moving around) rather than looking dead-on like a camera would. A camera taking on the same FOV as the peripheral vision of the eye (as fish-eye lenses would) would indeed look weird because it's essentially assuming that you're looking at 170° dead-on as opposed to the typical 70° for the eye.

Also, in regards to the drawing thing, to claim a drawing is done how cameras do things even in spirit is to make faulty claims, as while cameras capture scenes with primarily better focus than eyes (though oftentimes you would have to hold it in a specific way to get it to focus on something), they capture perfect representations of scenes. When drawing, you're using your eyes (and your brain) pretty much the whole time, with part of that process being looking at references. Anyone who has ever drawn can attest to that. A drawing contains a more stylized representation of a scene and is bound to have imperfections you would pretty much never see from a camera. You can see stylization in lithographs and paintings (like The Last Supper), both of which are things made when people only had eyes to work with. Even the stick figure drawings are just that: stylization. It would be more accurate to say that drawings provide an idealistic view of a scene than to say they're like how a camera works. It's pretty hard to really associate cameras with drawings unless it's specifically like that one scene in Chowder where during a close-up, Mung Daal says "Get that camera out of my face."
 
Flashlight237 said:
Err, how much did you read of my comment if you linked the same Wikipedia article I linked? But that's just a cherry-pick.
Click to expand...
I read everything, and the Wikipedia link was a mistake, as I am writing my response between yours to publish it later."
Flashlight237 said:
For things with full-screen and widescreen settings, you typically see the screen get stretched out horizontally, which makes vertical FOV the predetermined one in those cases. Can't say the same for games made when widescreen TVs weren't a thing, though.
Click to expand...
So, I should use the value that is considered default in most games.
Flashlight237 said:
Note this part: "Not sure where 70° exactly came from. It's one of the OBD artifacts in our calcs. It doesn't seem too wrong, though, given the above." The eye anatomy article is the missing part of that equation, where central vision represents looking at a scene dead-on.
Click to expand...
What article exactly? Most sources seem to indicate that the central vision is 60°.
Flashlight237 said:
Bear in mind, again, our wiki article's statement says "By assuming a typical human field of view it allows one to estimate the size of an object if one knows the distance from the point of view or estimate the distance to the point of view if one knows the size of the object." If it had anything to do with cameras, it would instead say "By assuming a typical camera's field of view it allows one to estimate the size of an object if one knows the distance from the point of view or estimate the distance to the point of view if one knows the size of the object." The eye anatomy article matches the "typical human field of view" thing stated in our wiki article.
Click to expand...
Yes, in the same post where they ask why 70° is decided, they put the message that appears on the Calculation Guide page
https://vsbattles.com/threads/angsize-question.78484/
And DontTalkDT himself states that he is unsure of the source, and in his response, he seems to suggest that it leans more toward the perspective of modern cameras.
Flashlight237 said:
The high fields of view for the eye comes from peripheral vision (which comes from the eye moving around) rather than looking dead-on like a camera would. A camera taking on the same FOV as the peripheral vision of the eye (as fish-eye lenses would) would indeed look weird because it's essentially assuming that you're looking at 170° dead-on as opposed to the typical 70° for the eye.
Click to expand...
In terms of central vision, the commonly accepted value seems to be 60°, not 70°, which applies to both vertical and horizontal fields of view.
Flashlight237 said:
Also, in regards to the drawing thing, to claim a drawing is done how cameras do things even in spirit is to make faulty claims, as while cameras capture scenes with primarily better focus than eyes (though oftentimes you would have to hold it in a specific way to get it to focus on something), they capture perfect representations of scenes. When drawing, you're using your eyes (and your brain) pretty much the whole time, with part of that process being looking at references. Anyone who has ever drawn can attest to that. A drawing contains a more stylized representation of a scene and is bound to have imperfections you would pretty much never see from a camera. You can see stylization in lithographs and paintings (like The Last Supper), both of which are things made when people only had eyes to work with. Even the stick figure drawings are just that: stylization. It would be more accurate to say that drawings provide an idealistic view of a scene than to say they're like how a camera works. It's pretty hard to really associate cameras with drawings unless it's specifically like that one scene in Chowder where during a close-up, Mung Daal says "Get that camera out of my face."
Click to expand...
Comic and manga drawings, as well as photographs, share several key principles such as composition, framing, and perspective. Both mediums take three-dimensional scenes and convert them into two-dimensional representations, following similar visual rules, which emphasizes their connection despite differences in format. Therefore, I consider it more appropriate to use the approaches of photography and cinema to define the field of view in comic and manga panels.

However, I would like to know what alternatives you propose.
 
Kulf_Boba said:
What article exactly? Most sources seem to indicate that the central vision is 60°.
Click to expand...
https://www.allaboutvision.com/eye-care/eye-anatomy/what-is-peripheral-vision/ (Categorized under "Eye Anatomy")
Kulf_Boba said:
Comic and manga drawings, as well as photographs, share several key principles such as composition, framing, and perspective. Both mediums take three-dimensional scenes and convert them into two-dimensional representations, following similar visual rules, which emphasizes their connection despite differences in format. Therefore, I consider it more appropriate to use the approaches of photography and cinema to define the field of view in comic and manga panels.

However, I would like to know what alternatives you propose.
Click to expand...
That's kinda the thing... Fundamentally drawing is done using the eyes. Had been that way before cameras were invented. Let's look at one of the principles for instance: Perspective. Back in the art classes I took (which did jack shit), we were told to set a vanishing point when lessons on perspective were taught. I had heard two different ideas for the vanishing point: the earlier one being putting the vanishing point directly in the center of the canvas and the later one being putting the vanishing point a smidge below the center. After that, you would draw a couple straight lines towards the vanishing point and a straight line horizontally across the vanishing point to indicate the horizon. Of course neither lesson mentioned the idea of there being more than one vanishing point (I would expect there to be two at least since we have two eyes). I would learn later from Twitter art tips that the center is supposed to represent eye level. I picked this one specifically because I don't really have anything to say about those.

In regards to alternatives, I don't think alternatives are too viable at this time as there are times where panels would be shaped weirdly and there are times where the fancy letters used for sound effects (I don't know the actual term for those) or even characters would leave comic panels. Those I'm afraid might throw both our arguments in for a loop. If I really have one, it's to go with the human eye unless a camera is specifically mentioned.
 
Flashlight237 said:
https://www.allaboutvision.com/eye-care/eye-anatomy/what-is-peripheral-vision/ (Categorized under "Eye Anatomy")
Click to expand...
The content on the calculation guide page was added on April 13, 2019, while the page stating that central vision is 70° was published on February 23, 2023. Upon reviewing sources prior to April 13, 2019, it appears that central vision was typically indicated as 60°, which is also what is currently established. Therefore, it seems that the 70° claim might be an incorrect assumption or that the original formula is not based on typical human vision.
Flashlight237 said:
That's kinda the thing... Fundamentally drawing is done using the eyes. Had been that way before cameras were invented. Let's look at one of the principles for instance: Perspective. Back in the art classes I took (which did jack shit), we were told to set a vanishing point when lessons on perspective were taught. I had heard two different ideas for the vanishing point: the earlier one being putting the vanishing point directly in the center of the canvas and the later one being putting the vanishing point a smidge below the center. After that, you would draw a couple straight lines towards the vanishing point and a straight line horizontally across the vanishing point to indicate the horizon. Of course neither lesson mentioned the idea of there being more than one vanishing point (I would expect there to be two at least since we have two eyes). I would learn later from Twitter art tips that the center is supposed to represent eye level. I picked this one specifically because I don't really have anything to say about those.

In regards to alternatives, I don't think alternatives are too viable at this time as there are times where panels would be shaped weirdly and there are times where the fancy letters used for sound effects (I don't know the actual term for those) or even characters would leave comic panels. Those I'm afraid might throw both our arguments in for a loop. If I really have one, it's to go with the human eye unless a camera is specifically mentioned.
Click to expand...
I do not consider it valid to use the central field of vision of the human eye to define the FOV of a comic or manga panel. The fact that scenes are drawn as we would see them in reality does not mean that the field of vision of the panel should match our central vision. I can illustrate a room as I perceive it in real life, but that does not mean that the drawing encompasses the same visual range.

Many comic and manga panels are composed with a focus on individual scenes or character details, where a smaller FOV (like 40°) better represents how the reader perceives the action. Using 60° could compress distances due to the expanded field of view, which would not be suitable for scenes designed to highlight specific actions or characters within a more contained space. In comic panels, a vertical FOV of 60° tends to compress space, making objects appear closer together. While the drawing reflects our perception of depth, a 40° FOV is more appropriate as it reduces distortions and provides a more accurate representation of the actual distance between characters. When calculating distances using the relevant formula, a 40° FOV results in more consistent and visually realistic measurements, better aligned with human experience.
 
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If you look for comic or manga panels that feature multiple objects at different distances and conduct a detailed analysis, you will notice that the results using a vertical FOV of 60° (based on the central vision of the human eye) do not align with what is actually represented in these drawings.

Example 1
rHdEr4u.jpeg

Panel Height: 795px
Door: 290px | 2.03
Head: 52px | 0.2

Distance to the Door: 2.03 * 795 / (290 * 2 * tan(60deg/2)) = 4.81m
Distance to the Person: 0.2 * 795 / (52 * 2 * tan(60deg/2)) = 2.64m
Distance between the Person and the Door: 4.81 - 2.64 = 2.17m

The person is depicted halfway down the street, so it doesn't make sense that there is only 2.17 m between the door of the house and the person. This distance is comparable to the height of the door. According to what is shown in the panel, if the door were to fall in front of the person, there should be a considerably greater distance between them.


Example 2
Mienzxy.jpeg

Panel Height: 687px
Daredevil: 196px
Person: 524px

Distance to Daredevil: 1.8 * 687 / (196 * 2 * tan(60deg/2)) = 5.46m
Distance to the Person: 1.71 * 687 / (524 * 2 * tan(60deg/2)) = 1.94m
Distance between Daredevil and the Person: 5.46 - 1.94 = 3.5m

In this panel, the distance between Daredevil and the person seems wide enough for the pickup truck next to them, which should measure approximately 5 meters, to fit in that space. The dimensions obtained using 60° do not align with the visual representation.


Example 3
jbGYXiO.jpeg

Panel Height: 884px
Daredevil: 304.27px | 1.8m

Distance to Daredevil: 1.8 * 884 / (304.27 * 2 * tan(60deg/2)) = 4.52m

In this panel, the point of view (POV) is approximately at the back of the New York Police Department car, which measures around 5 meters. It can also be observed that there is a considerable distance between the front of the car and Daredevil.


Example 4
Hzg3dWl.jpeg

Panel Height: 1536px
Daredevil's Head: 160px | 0.225m
Sergey's Head: 460px | 0.225m

Distance to Daredevil: 0.225 * 1536 / (160 * 2 * tan(60deg/2)) = 1.87m
Distance to Sergey: 0.225 * 1536 / (460 * 2 * tan(60deg/2)) = 0.65m

Distance between Characters: 1.87 - 0.65 = 1.22m

In this panel, the distance between the two characters seems to be greater than 1.22 m, and in fact, it appears to be even greater than Daredevil's height (1.8 m).


Example 5
cDmXI1e.png

Panel Height: 511px
Saitama's Arm: 46px | 0.665 meters
Geryuganshoop's Head: 116px | 1.26 meters

Distance to Saitama: 0.665 * 511 / [46 * 2 * tan(60deg/ 2)] = 6.39m
Distance to Geryuganshoop: 1.26 * 511 / [116 * 2 * tan(60deg/ 2)] = 4.8m
Distance between Characters: 6.39 - 4.8 = 1.59m

In this panel, the calculated distance between the two characters is 1.59 m, which seems to be a rather short separation given the scale and proportions of the characters.
 
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Regarding the horizontal FOV in video games, it seems correct that on PC it usually ranges between 90 and 100 degrees, while on consoles it hovers around 60 degrees. This difference is due to the distance between the player and the screen, as well as the size of the monitor or television. The episodes Design Cinema - EP 29 - FOV in Games Part 01 and Part 02 explain in detail why these values are most suitable for each platform.



For example, in Minecraft, the vertical field of view is 70°, while the horizontal field of view is set at 100°. You can see this in the following video:


Additionally, I found a video that explains how to calculate the FOV in a video game.
 
Pretty much the same as I had earlier.
Agnaa said:
A variety of thoughts:
  • I think this change is pretty important, due to its impact on the accuracy of our statistics. I think this is more comparable to adjusting tiers due to recalculating GBE, than it is to changing ways of calculating destruction values (in that there's a concrete, viable replacement that can be applied for all calculations).
  • Some of these are pretty egregious, and should be spot-checked as unusable regardless. If a BtS camera angle shows a longer distance than you get from angsizing, or a character length between the measured object and the camera shows that the measurement is obviously unreliable, angsizing should not be used in that way.
  • In situations where FoVs are known (such as some video games, and productions with known camera equipment), those should definitely be used instead.
  • I'm not familiar enough with photography to evaluate the suggestions for improved default angle choice.
Click to expand...
Some changes are necessary and worthwhile in exceptional cases, but I'm not knowledgeable enough to tell whether or not the default case should be changed.
 
While I'm not knowledgeable to comment on the FOV of video games and how we'd use them for angsizing nor can I really judge what alternative FOV we'd use for comic/manga panels, I will say that the angsizing page should acknowledge the use of FOVs other than 70 degrees if it's possible to confirm them e.g. when we know the FOV of the camera that was used to film a movie/TV show. I also agree with using the horizontal panel length for narrow comic/manga panels like this since using the vertical panel length results in blatantly inaccurate distances.
 
My final proposal for movies, series, comics, and manga is as follows:

For movies and series, I suggest a horizontal field of view of 60°, as it falls within the values commonly used in cinematography. Alternatively, we could also consider a fixed value like 65.5° or 54.4°.
Wh6Y4mj.jpeg

35 mm and 50 mm Lenses (Standard Lenses)
  • 35 mm: This lens is considered slightly wide-angle, offering a broad field of view without distorting perspective too much. It is commonly used for indoor scenes or situations where a larger portion of the environment needs to be shown without making objects appear distorted.
  • 50 mm: Considered the standard lens closest to what the human eye sees in terms of perspective. It does not produce distortion and is ideal for medium shots and general takes.

24 mm and 28 mm Lenses (Wide-Angle)
  • 24 mm: Used for wide shots that capture more of the environment. Ideal for landscapes, action scenes, or small interiors where more space needs to be encompassed.
  • 28 mm: This is a wide-angle lens that does not distort as much as more extreme lenses (like the 18 mm), making it suitable for shots where a broad view is needed without distortion.
Lens Focal LengthDiagonalVerticalHorizontal
24mm84.1°53.1°73.7°
28mm75.4°46.4°65.5°
35mm63.4°37.8°54.4°
50mm46.8°27.0°39.6°

Value table source:
en.wikipedia.org

Angle of view (photography) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org
Click to expand...

For comics and manga, I recommend using a field of view of 40° for vertical panels, based on my previous observations.
BbvCqQN.png

I do not consider it valid to use the central field of vision of the human eye to define the FOV of a comic or manga panel. The fact that scenes are drawn as we would see them in reality does not mean that the field of vision of the panel should match our central vision. I can illustrate a room as I perceive it in real life, but that does not mean that the drawing encompasses the same visual range.

Many comic and manga panels are composed with a focus on individual scenes or character details, where a smaller FOV (like 40°) better represents how the reader perceives the action. Using 60° could compress distances due to the expanded field of view, which would not be suitable for scenes designed to highlight specific actions or characters within a more contained space. In comic panels, a vertical FOV of 60° tends to compress space, making objects appear closer together. While the drawing reflects our perception of depth, a 40° FOV is more appropriate as it reduces distortions and provides a more accurate representation of the actual distance between characters. When calculating distances using the relevant formula, a 40° FOV results in more consistent and visually realistic measurements, better aligned with human experience.
Click to expand...
If you look for comic or manga panels that feature multiple objects at different distances and conduct a detailed analysis, you will notice that the results using a vertical FOV of 60° (based on the central vision of the human eye) do not align with what is actually represented in these drawings.

Example 1
rHdEr4u.jpeg

Panel Height: 795px
Door: 290px | 2.03
Head: 52px | 0.2

Distance to the Door: 2.03 * 795 / (290 * 2 * tan(60deg/2)) = 4.81m
Distance to the Person: 0.2 * 795 / (52 * 2 * tan(60deg/2)) = 2.64m
Distance between the Person and the Door: 4.81 - 2.64 = 2.17m

The person is depicted halfway down the street, so it doesn't make sense that there is only 2.17 m between the door of the house and the person. This distance is comparable to the height of the door. According to what is shown in the panel, if the door were to fall in front of the person, there should be a considerably greater distance between them.


Example 2
Mienzxy.jpeg

Panel Height: 687px
Daredevil: 196px
Person: 524px

Distance to Daredevil: 1.8 * 687 / (196 * 2 * tan(60deg/2)) = 5.46m
Distance to the Person: 1.71 * 687 / (524 * 2 * tan(60deg/2)) = 1.94m
Distance between Daredevil and the Person: 5.46 - 1.94 = 3.5m

In this panel, the distance between Daredevil and the person seems wide enough for the pickup truck next to them, which should measure approximately 5 meters, to fit in that space. The dimensions obtained using 60° do not align with the visual representation.


Example 3
jbGYXiO.jpeg

Panel Height: 884px
Daredevil: 304.27px | 1.8m

Distance to Daredevil: 1.8 * 884 / (304.27 * 2 * tan(60deg/2)) = 4.52m

In this panel, the point of view (POV) is approximately at the back of the New York Police Department car, which measures around 5 meters. It can also be observed that there is a considerable distance between the front of the car and Daredevil.


Example 4
Hzg3dWl.jpeg

Panel Height: 1536px
Daredevil's Head: 160px | 0.225m
Sergey's Head: 460px | 0.225m

Distance to Daredevil: 0.225 * 1536 / (160 * 2 * tan(60deg/2)) = 1.87m
Distance to Sergey: 0.225 * 1536 / (460 * 2 * tan(60deg/2)) = 0.65m

Distance between Characters: 1.87 - 0.65 = 1.22m

In this panel, the distance between the two characters seems to be greater than 1.22 m, and in fact, it appears to be even greater than Daredevil's height (1.8 m).


Example 5
cDmXI1e.png

Panel Height: 511px
Saitama's Arm: 46px | 0.665 meters
Geryuganshoop's Head: 116px | 1.26 meters

Distance to Saitama: 0.665 * 511 / [46 * 2 * tan(60deg/ 2)] = 6.39m
Distance to Geryuganshoop: 1.26 * 511 / [116 * 2 * tan(60deg/ 2)] = 4.8m
Distance between Characters: 6.39 - 4.8 = 1.59m

In this panel, the calculated distance between the two characters is 1.59 m, which seems to be a rather short separation given the scale and proportions of the characters.
Click to expand...

For horizontal panels, I propose using the same field of view as in movies and series; in this case, I recommend 60°.
GbLxvHm.png
 
My opinion remains the same.

Kulf_Boba said:
  1. Angsizing calculations should use the panel length (Not the panel height) in film and series scans, preferably 70°, as it falls within the range of the most common viewing angles in cinema.
  2. In video games, the standard for the horizontal field of view (FOV) is around 70°, so this value should also be used for the panel length, unless an exact value is known.
  3. For comic and manga panels, a more reduced angle should be used, preferably 40° for the panel height, while panels resembling those in cinema should use 70° for the panel length.
Click to expand...
I agree with point 1 and 2. Pixel length should be used over pixel height in these situations, the results have been shown to be far more accurate in this thread.

For point 3 I'm uncertain, since my knowledge on this area is still insufficient. Comics and manga panel are extremely weird, so I'm not certain if this is better than the current default. And it's pretty much impossible to prove anything since this relies on images that are drawn to look good in viewing, not be accurate for a certain FOV.

Also, I do agree that if the exact FOV value is known it should be used, though I think that should be self-explanatory.
 
Last edited:
TheRustyOne said:
My opinion remains the same.


I agree with point 1 and 2. Pixel length should be used over pixel height in these situations, the results have been shown to be far more accurate in this thread.

For point 3 I'm uncertain, since my knowledge on this area is still insufficient. Comics and manga panel are extremely weird, so I'm not certain if this is better than the current default. And it's pretty much impossible to prove anything since this relies on images that are drawn to look good in viewing, not be accurate for a certain FOV.

Also, I do agree that if the exact FOV value is known it should be used, though I think that should be self-explanatory.
Click to expand...
The issue of FOVs in games should be studied in more depth and the issue of FOVs in movies should be discussed as to which one would be most appropriate to use.

I have provided some reasons why 40° seems to be more suitable for the vertical field of view of certain panels.

https://vsbattles.com/threads/chang...re-than-1000-calculations.172862/post-6812965
 
Personally, I think we're better off sticking with human eye properties as the default, but with the corrected vertical FOV to 60 degrees. I went out of my way to explain how drawings are fundamentally different from photography or filmography, even though practically everything I said pretty much just amounts to "you can't expect artists to draw as if they got cameras instead of squishy nerves for eyes." I am for adding practically every "unless stated otherwise" statement (which is practically everything else throughout the thread, so Kulf gets that much), though.
 
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