Making Doctor Who Great Again, Part 1.5 - Re:Cosmology/Tiering

Continued from here. I'll just list the spoiler titles from that thread so that fully reading the previous thread won't be neccesary.

Again, big thanks to everyone who helped me with this, and sorry for the long wait.

N-Space's Continuum​

As I explained in the last post, the number of higher dimensions N-Space possesses is relatively inconsistent. However, after reviewing the subject thoroughly, I've come to believe that at least 30+ dimensions is the most reasonable number, as TV stories and novels frequently imply a number that exceeds 11/12 dimensions with no cap, and 37 dimensions is directly mentioned in one of the more prominent Doctor Who stories.

Additionally, N-Space's continuum has other layers separate (though related) to normal space-time and the Vortex (see N-Space's Adjacent Dimensions), including Hyperspace (occasionally, anyway), Warp Space and Sub-Space, that explicitly have their own quantitative dimensions outside of N-Space's own (Hyperspace in particular being 4-D).

That means Hyperverse level individual space-time continuua.

Lower numbers will just have to be treated on a case-by-case basis, which I'll address with great vigour in Part 2.

Universal Space-Time Vortex​

If you read my other post (see N-Space's Vortex - Size & What is The Vortex?), I've made it clear that the Vortex is dimensionally superior to the normal continuum and blatantly transcends space-time to a likely infinite degree, despite the fact that both the Ocean of Time (see N-Space - The Ocean of Time) and different O-regions of space-time contain all possible permutations of 4-D space-time (akin to a multiverse in and of itself).

This is supported by The Pirate Loop, in which 9th dimensional travel via reality warping is just a catalyst for achieving space-time travel by skimming off the surface of the Vortex like rocks on a lake, yet it's still a far inferior and less advanced form of travel than actual Vortex traversal. Keep in mind, this higher-dimensional drive system is explicitly superior to/more sophisticated than Hyperspace travel (understandably, considering that Hyperspace travel was commonplace amongst humanity 1,500 years prior to the novel).

The Black Void​

See Voids - The Black Void for some context.

Due to The Book of The Snowstorm (see those quotes here), we now have a consistent portrayal of The Black Void.

To make a long story short, it's essentially a comparatively vast ocean of unreality that surrounds N-Space. Lots of flotsam and jetsam exists in the Void (including unstable potential realities) like islands, these include Hollows (which I'll expand on below).

As I said in the last thread, The Black Void shares the nature of The Land of Fiction to an extend and vice-versa (see Voids - Land of Fiction). This is further cemented by the much older Special Occasions stories in Short Trips and Side Steps, in which The 4th Doctor and Romana view the end of the universe in the same manner as Nyssa and Adric view half the universe being consumed by entropy from The Black Void while in The Celestial Toyroom.

So, to make a long story short, TBV >> N-Space, Space-Time Vortex, and Hollows.

Hollows​

Hollows are a relatively new concept introduced by The Giggle. It's also been revealed that both The Land of Fiction (see Voids - Land of Fiction) and The Celestial Toyroom are Hollows.

To be honest, the only thing we can say about Hollows for certain (please read this relatively short overview for more context) is that they're empty, timeless (well, more like time irrelevant, but I digress), spaceless pseudo-dimensions, meaning whatever foreign matter/energy isn't actually bound by the laws of physics. For example, The Celestial Toymaker is entirely responsible for any substance and physics within The Toyroom.

Notably, these two Hollows (the only named ones, mind you) are both infinite, yet small compared to the universe, and are considered dimensions of imagination.

If we assume all Hollows are the same, then they'd be lesser than N-Space in size and overall reality (if that makes sense), but dimensionally superior to possibly even the Time Vortex. So Hyperverse level again.

Pre-Universe​

The non-palimpsest version of history (see The Pre-Universe - Lance Parkin's Cosmology) portrayed in Faction Paradox is effectively just N-Space but without proper structure, and therefore scales to the rating assigned to N-Space.

As I mentioned in the last thread (see The Pre-Universe - New/Missing Adventures), the Pre-Universe's form reality in Christmas on a Rational Planet is more like an infinite variety of flavours (with N-Space's reality being just 'a single flavour' by comparison), even if said realities conflict with each other. Every possibility (of which there are explicitly infinite) exists within the Pre-Universe, without being constrained by structure, physics, science, guiding principles or logic. It's utterly irrational.

The problem is, however, I have no idea what rating this would get. Considering that The Carnival Queen, who is literally the manifested form of the Pre-Universe's irrationality, derides N-Space physics as 'little' and 'mundane', I think it's safe to assume it at least far surpasses N-Space. And if we assume each version of reality is as vast as N-Space, the Pre-Universe would surpass N-Space by an order of infinity.

Multiverse/Omniverse​

As I've explained previously, the multiverse is constantly expanding, and has somehow already expanded to such a degree that universes can be divided into different hierarchies of infinity (see Type IV Multiverse - Number of Universes).

It's stated that the multiverse is a Tegmark Type IV structure in both The Scientific Secrets of Doctor Who and Wildthyme in Purple (see Type IV Multiverse - Bubble and Brane Cosmology/Wildthyme in Purple/Expanding Universes), which would qualify for Low 1-A based on what I remember. But, that's only one narrative source, and (as pointed out here) it's somewhat frequently contradicted by the sources that claim creation is composed of multiple multiverses (see Omniverse).

At the very least, it's apparent the multiverse transcends a singular universe to a degree that's similar to the difference between Low 2-C and Low 1-C, which (at least from memory) would still be Hyperverse level.

The omniverse, in turn, is composed of at least a finite number of multiverses (see Omniverse) that'd transcend a single, Hyperverse level, space-time continuum to a degree I'm not sure about.

Six-Fold Realm​

See The Six-Fold Realm.

Fairly simple.

The Six-Fold Realm is dimensionally superior to both the Time Vortex and multiverse (not omniverse, mind you).

Also, we know that The Very Fabric of Space and Time is a multiversal thing and interstitial time extends across the multiverse (see The Multiverse - Spiral Scratch & Type IV Multiverse - Very Fabric of Space and Time). The Lux Aeterna is the lattice that physically separates both space-time and interstitial time from the Six-Fold Realm, yet it exists on the same level (both are 11-D and grant Guardian of Time-level powers) and is small enough by comparison that it only exists at the heart of the Six-Fold Realm.

So it transcends both the multiverse's space-time and Time Vortices to a fairly decent degree.

Omiversal Vortex​

The Omniversal Vortex is essentially a significantly larger version of the Space-Time Vortex with a similar role, as Lampreys can use interstitial time (the space-time between instants of time, see N-Space's Vortex - Interstitial/Grannular Time).

On a multiversal scale, it physically keeps all the infinite realities of the multiverse intact and in check (see Space-Time Vortex -The Multiverse), while the Vortex across the omniverse extends to at least multiple separate multiverses, and is even theorised to be potentially responsible for the creation of different multiverses in the first place (see Space-Time Vortex - Spiral Scratch).

The Void Between Universes​

I've learned significantly more about The Void (see Voids - Interdimensional Spaces - The Void Between Universes) since the last thread, which I've documented here.

Most importantly, The Void isn't just an empty dimension. It's considered a more true Void and a sort of un-reality by comparison to non-realities like Hollows and The Black Void, both of which are (like I said before) also bereft of space-time and matter. This makes it infinitesimally small and immeasurably massive at the same time.

Combined with scale of The Void, Ultima Reality believes this is either Low 1-A or 1-A.

agree, still think Low 1A for multiverse is feasible

This is amazing and I trust the research you've done and agree with your tiers.

Yeah, i also think Low 1-A for the multiverse would be okey

I okey with the Low 1-A ball

But wait, isn't the N-Space or Black Void High 1-B at least because of this?

Urizen's Wall
Outside in the Void, a constant blizzard reigned; but the small, small infinity of that one universe was kept safe and sound inside a crystal sphere, a crystal sphere which was made of an infinity of crystal spheres. A structure of great complexity and infinite width, for which reasons it was also infinitely intelligent. But the same billion globes which guarded the world from the outside, the same billion crystal balls which guarded the secret ways to move in and out, and withheld them from most, were also a billion glass eyes, looking in. And Lord Yog, the Key and the Gate, the outer skin of the Universe, desired more than anything to know the inside. Not to invade it, not to destroy it or conquer it — but simply to see and experience the lives of the strange beings whose existence it was its own sword duty to safeguard. And more than once, it had given in to that desire, when it had felt fault lines in the other layers of the cosmic onion — fault lines through which it might squeeze. Rifts in space-time, gabs in Urizen’s Wall, a star alignment with a particular alchemical effect. But a lesser infinity could not contain an infinity great enough to encompass it; there was another paradox. So Yog had had no choice but to shatter himself — and let the shards descend. Just small ones. Fine ones, a fine white mist of crystalline splinters, still carrying the infinite cold of the Void Beyond Everything. Snow that couldn’t melt. And in times past, those splinters of reality’s rear-view mirror had found terrible things to reflect within; rewriting and retconning themselves makeshift histories, the better to forget the tragedy of their creation, in the way of mad gods everywhere, these aberrations had become enemies to lifekind, eldritch gods of the worst sort, withering everything which their desire for knowledge touched. Some denizens of the Universe had come to be sworn to fight them at every turn. Certain Sisters of Wepwawet, for example. But that had been a long time ago. And Yog, the real Yog, had seen it all. Seen it all from the outside, powerless as ever, and wept. Wept at his folly, wept at its consequences, wept at the fate of its children; wept as the greatest and evilest of its warped reflections destroyed itself in futile vengeance; wept, too, at the horrors of the Cosmic War. A god of glass, a god of frozen tears; all-seeing, all-knowing — everywhere and nowhere — yet quite unable to do a thing about anything he witnessed. All that had changed quite a short time ago as gods reckoned these things. There had been a breach. One of the surviving Archons, long thought dead, had crawled out of the woodwork, and personally put a dent in Urizen’s Wall, quite possibly by mistake. Which one was not a question terribly likely to be answered with any certainty; whether it was a blunder or a crime, few of that species would admit to it. (Although, Claret said, it was probably Mortimus. It seemed like a Mortimus thing to do.) It was a thin crack, barely perceivable, but some impossible things can fit through the eye of a needle as easily as others might cross infinite distances with a single wing-beat. Yog had not been alone in taking that chance to return to the Universe; he had not even been the first. But he had been more careful than most. He had not rushed headfirst into a universe which he changed without him, and whose infinite complexities, in his newly fragmented state, he could no longer grasp.

For reasons known to very few, the structure of the ordered Universe was distinctly onion-like. Spheres within spheres. The outer layer had always been a great, crystalline, hyperdimensional sphere, a sphere which was also an infinite swarm of infinite spheres, a frothing, tumbling, living foam of celestial globes flocking together like soap-bubbles. That was what you saw if you managed almost to leave the Universe, and perhaps that was why there were those who, unaware that they had stopped just one step beyond the true exit, believed that the Multiverse looked like rings upon rings of identical planets. For the spheres were eyes, and the eyes were mirrors, and the mirrors reflected your own past. It all made sense to Rich, and not so much to Coloth, but the great secret of his relatively happy existence — under the circumstances — was that he never particularly expected the world around him to make sense, and did not begrudge it its frequent failures to do so. Beyond the wall of spheres was the Great Black Void, and the rings of flotsam and jetsam which surrounded the core, ordered universe — the sea of Void upon which the dream-realms, the unstable what-ifs, the oxbows and the pockets were islands. That was where the Library stood. And other things, too. But the crystal spheres looked… broken. The illusion of three dimensions did not do it justice, but there seemed, somehow, to be a gap there; one great snowglobe missing, or an infinity, perhaps. Where it had been torn away, jagged shards were left, like the dying stem of a plucked flower. They had no time to examine the matter, and Rich was almost thankful for that daunting sight, which made it all the easier for him to slip back into the Black — — but something very, very strange was going on, of that, there could be no doubt.

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-The Book of the Snowstorm

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The black Void contains infinity sphere (each sphere within another sphere), with the difference of sphere being compared to onion layers with an infinitely hyperdimensional size difference.

i agree with Low 1-A, possibly 1-A

Oliver_de_jesus said:

I okey with the Low 1-A ball

But wait, isn't the N-Space or Black Void High 1-B at least because of this?

The black Void contains infinity sphere (each sphere within another sphere), with the difference of sphere being compared to onion layers with an infinitely hyperdimensional size difference.

Click to expand...

Unless I'm interpreting it wrong, the quote doesn't specify that each larger infinity on the scale is dimensionally superior to each smaller infinity, just that they're physically larger.

It seems like it's just transfinite number stacking, albeit on a hyperdimensional object.

"The outer layer had always been a great, crystalline, hyperdimensional sphere, a sphere which was also an infinite swarm of infinite spheres, a frothing, tumbling, living foam of celestial globes flocking together like soap-bubbles"

I think the last sentence is talking about how infinite spheres are parallel hence "flocking together like a soap-bubble"

Gasper said:

"The outer layer had always been a great, crystalline, hyperdimensional sphere, a sphere which was also an infinite swarm of infinite spheres, a frothing, tumbling, living foam of celestial globes flocking together like soap-bubbles"

I think the last sentence is talking about how infinite spheres are parallel hence "flocking together like a soap-bubble"

Click to expand...

It says onion like, more like layers

ByAsura said:

Unless I'm interpreting it wrong, the quote doesn't specify that each larger infinity on the scale is dimensionally superior to each smaller infinity, just that they're physically larger.

It seems like it's just transfinite number stacking, albeit on a hyperdimensional object.

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It is still infinitely larger than the previous one, , the library, uses the same Hyperdimensional thing and describes it quite explicitly

As the name implies, the place is full of books. Shelves upon shelves of them, infinitely tall, infinitely wide. Practically no one remembers where it came from, but I’m something of an exception in that regard.

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Gasper said:

"The outer layer had always been a great, crystalline, hyperdimensional sphere, a sphere which was also an infinite swarm of infinite spheres, a frothing, tumbling, living foam of celestial globes flocking together like soap-bubbles"

I think the last sentence is talking about how infinite spheres are parallel hence "flocking together like a soap-bubble"

Click to expand...

Before that part that you cut is this, clearly says that the sphere exists one within the other, not in parallel

For reasons known to very few, the structure of the ordered Universe was distinctly onion-like. Spheres within spheres

Click to expand...

Oliver_de_jesus said:

Before that part that you cut is this, clearly says that the sphere exists one within the other, not in parallel

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i mean, yes, they are one within the other.
But they can still be parallel. Like a Multiverse can contain infinite parallel universes.

Anyway, I could 100% be wrong so don't take any of this super seriously.

It's not just that something has to be infinitely larger, each layer has to be in a transcendentally higher spatio-temporal dimension than the last one.

They don't say that's why the Library is hyperdimensional, or give that as the definition of hyperdimensionality. Hyperdimensional just means > 3-D in most cases.

I agree with the void being Low 1-A/1-A as I mentioned before. However, I have doubts about the void presented in the Spiral Politics cosmology. It also qualifies as Low 1-A/1-A, right? It has been stated that it is not just a vacuum; it is truly a true adimensional void, with universes existing within it like "soap bubbles in a dark sea."

Regarding the pre-universe, I see potential for it to be much more. Like ByAsura, I don't know exactly what level the pre-universe would be, but as it was approached, the pre-universe has an infinite number of different laws of physics and possibly even mathematics (given that the mathematics of N-space is just one among infinite possibilities). Additionally, it was stated that it breaks all existing laws (physics, language, logic, nature, etc., even laws that don’t have names lol). I’m not sure how we will handle this on the wiki, as theoretically, shouldn’t it be at least 1-B high? I mean, variations in physical laws lead to different dimensionalities (at least in Doctor Who). I’m not sure if we will treat this as an NFL or just basic logic, but I can see what I said making sense, at least.

Regarding Multiverse IV, I’m also unsure how we should treat it. As mentioned in the link, Multiverse IV does not seem to be well represented, but that does not exactly refute Low 1-A (only 1-A or High 1-A). I can see it being 1-B up to Low 1-A quite comfortably.

About the statements regarding the universe existing in onion layers... I also thought it to be High 1-B. As ByAsura pointed out, there is no explicit evidence that this is talking about infinite-dimensional, although infinite spheres on top of each other like onion layers, shouldn’t it by default be something? I’m not exactly sure how the tier system handles this kind of thing.

For now, agreeing with Low 1-A/1-A for the void. But I also have doubts on some points.

Yes. It's not just a vacuum, it's described as immeasurable distances of un-space and un-time in The Book of the War.

Let’s goo

ByAsura said:

They don't say that's why the Library is hyperdimensional, or give that as the definition of hyperdimensionality. Hyperdimensional just means > 3-D in most cases.

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It was, Rich knew, absolutely ridiculous that he was only now finding
out. He’d lived in this Library all his life, and furthermore, as a Birdhemoth,
he was the proud scion of a race of demigod-birds to whom traversing the
interdimensional voids was second nature. By all rights, from his fledgling
years, he should have known the hyperdimensional outer skin of the Library
as an Earth-bird knows its nesting tree.
Instead, he had spent his entire existence within the Library’s infinite
interior, having no more concept of its exterior than a 16th century gut
bacterium has of William Shakespeare.[3] He had, admittedly, been
nonexistent for 260 years out of his official lifespan of 702; but Rich, an
intellectually-honest bird if ever there was one, was disinclined to use that
as an excuse. He had reason to believe that even in the prior course of his
existence, the occasion of his first journey beyond the boundaries of the
Library would only have been brought forward by half a year at most; and
six months were as nothing to a Birdhemoth.

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From the outside Rich sees the library, calls it Hyperdimensional with infinite size interior


The reason he is outside is because he crossed a void gate along with the fact that Birdhemoth (Rich) could cross infinite distance in a single wing-beat

Is in the first scene of The Book of the Snowstorm, so yeah Hyperdimensional mean Infinity size

Quasar002 said:

However, I have doubts about the void presented in the Spiral Politics cosmology. It also qualifies as Low 1-A/1-A, right? It has been stated that it is not just a vacuum; it is truly a true adimensional void, with universes existing within it like "soap bubbles in a dark sea."

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I agree with this

i agree with Low 1-A/1-A
Great job dude

I just remembered, but the Faction had an object from a universe where the Vampires defeated the Time Lords and they never finished anchoring (although I think it was more of a half-process), the point is that, at some point/place , there are other versions of the Pre-Universe existing in the Void, so any level that the Pre-Universe has, whether Low 1-A or High 1-B or not, scales to the void.

Oliver_de_jesus said:

From the outside Rich sees the library, calls it Hyperdimensional with infinite size interior

The reason he is outside is because he crossed a void gate along with the fact that Birdhemoth (Rich) could cross infinite distance in a single wing-beat

Is in the first scene of The Book of the Snowstorm, so yeah Hyperdimensional mean Infinity size

Click to expand...

I really don't see how that contradicts what I said. But, it's irrelevant anyway because each component would have to be separately and ascendingly hyperdimensional, not just the entire structure.

Either way, we should call more Staff

Oliver_de_jesus said:

I just remembered, but the Faction had an object from a universe where the Vampires defeated the Time Lords and they never finished anchoring (although I think it was more of a half-process), the point is that, at some point/place , there are other versions of the Pre-Universe existing in the Void, so any level that the Pre-Universe has, whether Low 1-A or High 1-B or not, scales to the void.

Click to expand...

In FP lore, The Void most likely predates the Pre-Universe because it's a remnant of a dead universe that entropied far before the Anchoring, with universes like N-Space even being a result of this process, so I agree with your logic.

Oliver_de_jesus said:

Either way, we should call more Staff

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As the update targets some Low 1-A/1-A things, shouldn't Ultima be called?

Quasar002 said:

As the update targets some Low 1-A/1-A things, shouldn't Ultima be called?

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Honestly yeah

Op seems fine.

Bump

Low 1-A makes sense to me, not sure about 1-A.

Quasar002 said:

As the update targets some Low 1-A/1-A things, shouldn't Ultima be called?

Click to expand...

Yeah.

Anyway: Queue, I am afraid.

Bump

It's funny you re-opened this because we were just talking about keeping it closed permanently due to some drastic overhauls.

But, I guess I'll just share some of the new stuff here later today.

ByAsura said:

It's funny you re-opened this because we were just talking about keeping it closed permanently due to some drastic overhauls.

But, I guess I'll just share some of the new stuff here later today.

Click to expand...

Good overhauls?

Very good.

Some stuff came up. I'll have to do it tomorrow evening.

I planned to have it done by today, but there's around half a dozen more profiles I still have to do. Here's the sandbox so far.

To make a long story short.

• N-Space, The Web of Time, etc are all confirmed to have 37 dimensions. 1-B
• The Time Lords, Enemy and a few other things are all explicitly ontologically superior to normal space-time due to their Platonic abstract nature. Plus, they scale well above an apophatic entity (that'll come later). Apparently 1-A.
  • To elaborate on this, the Pre-Universe Time Lords became elemental forces (literally like The Celestial Toymaker, who's described in the same terms) with the ability to crystalise reality into their vision. This is like the observer effect, but effective on a universal scale because the Time Lords exist both within and above the meta-structure of history. This means Time Lords are more real and more fundamental to reality, whilst simultaneously being above reality.
• The Time Vortex empowers this level of Time Lord ability. So 1-A.
• The Carnival Queen is superior still (1-A). I've been talking to some people, and they say that the Pre-Universe could qualify for Low 1-A due to the same factors as Tegmark Type IV multiverses if 1-A is bunk.
  • To again, elaborate on this, the Pre-Universe is basically just N-Space, but with infinite equally real realities (including some theology stuff) overlapping as possibilities.

Are you sure the apophatic entity is limited to 1-A ? Depending on how it's described it could definitely be higher

I've heard different things, but I'll have to elaborate on Anonymity tomorrow or Saturday.

**** it, I've added Anonymity and Great Black Void sections.

I tried to keep the sandbox b pages strictly to the most important details for the cosmology, but I felt it was pertinent to include some scaling here:

Firstly, Compassion is arguably the most advanced TARDIS before the Time War. TARDISes not only see the Space-Time Vortex and reality on all levels—to a far greater degree than Time Lords—but many of them see space-time as something that moves through them rather than them moving through it.

Secondly, The City of The Saved's technology includes shit like understanding of the universe's most fundamental underlying mathematical principles, living black holes, sentient planets, solar system-wide manipulation/engineering, time travel, and sun-destroying bombs. And those are from civilizations that were hundreds of millions of years younger than the most advanced of The City's societies.

Lastly, fully-functioning TARDISes (not to mention Type 91 War TARDISes) are literally made of maths and space-time that can't be damaged conventionally. Forces that can damage them include extraordinarily unique forms of energy (like enormously powerful psionics), certain high-order temporal weapons (like planet-erasing temporal weapons), space-time/gravity, and entropy.

For Anonymity to not be affected by any of these and completely incomprehensible to them basically proves that it can't operate on any level of standard reality, if not even non-reality.

As for why I included Chronovores in the Great Black Void section, it's because they're so big in their natural forms that even their thoughts are too large for N-Space's dimensions (or lack thereof, in the Chronovores' case).

I mentioned palimpsest universes (where history is subjective and completely overwritten ad infinitum) in the last thread.

Doctor Who has an inverse version of hypertime, where the current palimpsest temporality (present and future included) is already viewed as overwritten by the perspective of overtime.

• It was in these times that the visions came of the great Black Eye. It began to be scryed in the visions of the people, watching balefully over them. Not in the past, or the future, but in overtime. Written over past, present, future, in dreams and in waking, an alternity drawn across their history of now forever. All they could do was dismiss, push the thoughts back. Their presumption was that this vision, of another kind of themselves, was a pure symbol, a representation of the actual. That such a vision, themselves erased with only five ghosts to wander lost, could become true, that under the Black Eye their primate shadows would rule the spaces between moments, was literally unthinkable. - The Gallifrey Chronicles

Could this get anything?

I'm still trying to wrap my head around the first post. Do Time Lords have a "more real" self that exists in a 1-A realm? Should Time Lords like the Doctor have a 1-A key or....?

Yes and no. Time Lords, particularly in the wilderness era, are higher-dimensional beings and mapped onto the Space-Time Vortex itself.

What you see in 3-dimensions is supposedly 'just the tip of the iceberg', but it's not like a separate self, rather their path through history (biodata) is weaved into the structure of space-time itself (a normal person's is just part of space-time).

If you're confused, I think the best way I can describe what I wrote is that the Time Lords don't exist in relation to history, history exists in relation to the Time Lords.