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Elden Ring's Top Tier should be straight Tier 4 and not just "possibly".

"It isn't the case here"

Alright, well, I say it is, there's a great deal of information surrounding the stars that make them difference. So with that settled, I'm moving on.

This is literally the only argument I've seen you use against constellation statements.
Click to expand...
The argument against the constellation statements is that said statements inherently have no meaning in the way that you're presenting them, btw. I've actually talked about this over and over again. You continue to be dishonest. So I'm done.
 
Mr. Bambu said:
Alright, well, I say it is, there's a great deal of information surrounding the stars that make them difference. So with that settled, I'm moving on
Click to expand...
Aside from the fact that glintstones come from stars, there is no other information that proves that ER literal stars are drastically different from irl ones (and no, the case of falling stars beast doesn't prove anything)

Mr. Bambu said:
The argument against the constellation statements is that said statements inherently have no meaning in the way that you're presenting them, btw. I've actually talked about this over and over again. You continue to be dishonest. So I'm done.
Click to expand...
Yes, and your only argument to say that the constellations of Iji and Sellen's statements do not concern literal stars it is because the Fallingstar Beasts are also called "stars". Which is a weak argument as I've already explained, and your response to that is "no, it's not the same thing". You are the dishonest one here.

The same goes for the Preceptor Set description. Suns are drawn on it and your counter argument is "the suns are just a symbolic way of representing meteorites because we only see meteorites in the Radahn cutscene". You contradict a description of the game with a speculation to explain the fact that we only see meteorites in the cutscene, and doing that doesn't make sense because this scene absolutely does not exclude that the literal stars were also affected by Radahn
 
Aside from the fact that glintstones come from stars, there is no other information that proves that ER literal stars are drastically different from irl ones (and no, the case of falling stars beast doesn't prove anything)
Click to expand...
It does, as does the other stuff we've already discussed. In this thread and the first.

Yes, and your only argument to say that the constellations of Iji and Sellen's statements do not concern literal stars it is because the Fallingstar Beasts are also called "stars". Which is a weak argument as I've already explained, and your response to that is "no, it's not the same thing". You are the dishonest one here.

The same goes for the Preceptor Set description. Suns are drawn on it and your counter argument is "the suns are just a symbolic way of representing meteorites because we only see meteorites in the Radahn cutscene". You contradict a description of the game with a speculation to explain the fact that we only see meteorites in the cutscene, and doing that doesn't make sense because this scene absolutely does not exclude that the literal stars were also affected by Radahn
Click to expand...
You do not seem to understand the difference between pointing out the weaknesses of your own arguments, and my own, actual positions. And you're still being dishonest. And I think you know you're being dishonest. Because you know that my position encapsulates that Radahn's "star" fall didn't cause 4-C damage, and you know that my position puts forth that there is no evidence to support the notion that he pulled down both meteors and stars, and I think you read my message regarding how the gravity magic mechanically works not supporting your position, and I further reckon you've read Qawsedf's positions on the nitty-gritty details regarding the context against stars being literally stars.

But still you keep just stamping your feet and saying "YOUR ONLY POSITION IS X", and it's straight up just a lie. A lie that I've pointed out multiple times now, and you've just kept reiterating it. In doing this you have wasted my time, which is not a rule violation but does not lead me to extend this thread unnecessarily. You give very little to engage with in good faith. So.

The votes are as follows:

Change to "At least 7-A, likely High 4-C": Qawsedf234, Planck69

Full High 4-C: Planck69

Keep "At least 7-A, possibly High 4-C": Mr. Bambu

To hasten the thread, I will acquiesce with "likely" to just get it over with. Failing more sudden staff input, that would conclude this matter, as it is well past any grace period already. I'll leave it going for a bit.
 
Mr. Bambu said:
It does, as does the other stuff we've already discussed. In this thread and the first.
Click to expand...
No, calling meteorites "stars" does not mean that literal stars don't exist.
Mr. Bambu said:
You do not seem to understand the difference between pointing out the weaknesses of your own arguments, and my own, actual positions. And you're still being dishonest. And I think you know you're being dishonest. Because you know that my position encapsulates that Radahn's "star" fall didn't cause 4-C damage, and you know that my position puts forth that there is no evidence to support the notion that he pulled down both meteors and stars, and I think you read my message regarding how the gravity magic mechanically works not supporting your position, and I further reckon you've read Qawsedf's positions on the nitty-gritty details regarding the context against stars being literally stars.
Click to expand...
I know that, and I explained that you're wrong. I give arguments, you give counter arguments and I give counter arguments, how is that being dishonest?
 
I know that, and I explained that you're wrong. I give arguments, you give counter arguments and I give counter arguments, how is that being dishonest?
Click to expand...

Yes, and your only argument to say that the constellations of Iji and Sellen's statements do not concern literal stars it is because the Fallingstar Beasts are also called "stars". Which is a weak argument as I've already explained, and your response to that is "no, it's not the same thing". You are the dishonest one here.
Click to expand...
These two statements cannot both be true. You cannot honestly know that I maintain a plethora of pieces of evidence for my position, offered by myself and others, while also honestly believing my statement boils down to a single piece of rebuttal to a single point you made. This is, in a literal sense, impossible. Either you don't understand the current argument you are engaged in, or you are actively lying about the argument. I don't care which, I'm tired of it one way or the other, so I'm looking to votes.
 
Not arguing anything for or against but I found that the Pole Star seems to exist within the setting.

Roundshield covered in black leather. On the larger side for a medium shield.

From the north, the shield depicts the polar star in rivets of gold. The inside is lined with fur, protecting the carrier from frost.

~ Black Leather Shield
Click to expand...

Just thought it'd be good to know.
 
It is important to point out that this is not the first time that GRRM has done this. In A Song of Ice and Fire, even comets and meteorites are called "stars"
 
The prevailing belief seems to be that the entire opposed stance hinges on whether stars are real stars or not. I don't know whether they are or aren't, but the fact of the matter is that no evidence proves one way or the other that Radahn affected them. Proving that they exist (in the same way as normal stars do, at least- someone mentioned before a theory that they were much smaller, but otherwise similar, to real world stars? I didn't follow that argument much) is a step, not an end.

It is good to know, though, regardless of what it means.
 
I feel like at least 7-A like high 4-C is the best choice here as not only do we not know the actual ratio of stars to meteors/astels radahn was holding of directly we know for a fact that he stopped the stars that effect the carian fates and with what ymir says in the DLC its downright confirms that stars are not just some magic blobs in the sky but actual big ol gas balls

the quote that more or less confirms stars are stars;

  • I, too, am a glintstone sorcerer. We study the stars, and examine the life therein. Are you familiar with our findings? Long ago, we began as stardust, born of a great rupture far across the skies. We, too, are children of the Greater Will. Is that not divine? Is that not sublime? ...and yet, none can fathom its implications, its utter brilliance!
in the conversation right above he talks about what is quite clearly the beginning of all things a "great rupture" aka the big bang and since that resulted in stardust and stars in turn it would be a bit of a stretch to say that they don't function like our stars considering they had the same process of creation as ours.

Oh quick question, what would be the rating for stopping a movement of lets say a single star? because we do know that is what radahn does for the carian stars which are not astels or anything of the sort but actual stars (unknown amount but considering its always refered to as stars aka multiple meaning at least 2 stars that radahn for sure stops the movement of),
 
Qawsedf234 said:
Well just plugging in galatic orbital velocity with the Sun's mass gets you 3.9782E+40 Joules which is Low 4-C.
Click to expand...
couldn't we just use that as the base level for the base of the tiers then? since the DLC puts the nature of the stars into a more concrete nature.

basically making it so rotten radahn level demi gods are low 4-C possibly high 4-C, since we know that the stars of the carian that radahn holds of (at least 2 stars) are not astels or anything of the sort but actual stars making it more concrete to use that as a base scale.
 
Last edited:
Sir_sun_man said:
couldn't we just used that as the base level for the base of the tiers then? since the DLC puts the nature of the stars into a more concrete nature.

basically making it so rotten radahn level demi gods are low 4-C possibly high 4-C, since we know that the stars of the carian that radahn holds of (at least 2 stars) are not astels or anything of the sort but actual stars making it more concrete to use that as a base scale.
Click to expand...
I honestly wouldn’t mind that either. The only other thing is the possibility of using 4-B instead of high 4-C that was mentioned in the updated post. Personally, I’m on the fence about it, leaning towards it being less likely than just 4-C.

If we do use Low 4-C as a baseline, then I think these are the two options I propose.

  • Low 4-C, likely High 4-C
  • Low 4-C, possibly 4-B
 
Chritin said:
The only other thing is the possibility of using 4-B instead of high 4-C that was mentioned in the updated post.
Click to expand...
Well if you're using the number I gave it would still be High 4-C. Since 9,096 * 3.9782e+40 = 3.6185707e+44 which still wouldn't go past baseline 4-B.
 
Sir_sun_man said:
couldn't we just use that as the base level for the base of the tiers then? since the DLC puts the nature of the stars into a more concrete nature.

basically making it so rotten radahn level demi gods are low 4-C possibly high 4-C, since we know that the stars of the carian that radahn holds of (at least 2 stars) are not astels or anything of the sort but actual stars making it more concrete to use that as a base scale.
Click to expand...
This doesn't... address the reason for using 7-A, though.

If anything that would be like. "At least 7-A, likely Low 4-C, possibly High 4-C", which seems unnecessary.
 
Mr. Bambu said:
This doesn't... address the reason for using 7-A, though.

If anything that would be like. "At least 7-A, likely Low 4-C, possibly High 4-C", which seems unnecessary.
Click to expand...
the rason for using the 7-A rating becomes obsolete, we have direct statements of what was discovered by the carian sorceres in their study of the stars which is the origin of all things aka the big bang, we get confirmation that people much like in our universe are made of stardust meaning the actual mechanics and physics of stars in elden ring are similar to ours meaning that radahn holding off the fate of the carians through holting the stars that govern their fate is actually stopping a real star through his gravity magic which he uses in combat and we can withstand.

The reason for 7-A was specifically that we didn't know how many of the the shooting "stars" are actually stars and how many are meteors and astels, we also didn't know if the stars that the carians followed were actual stars or something else all together akin to say astels which can be dark stars but now through count ymir we have a more solid ground to stand on to say that radahn stoped actual stars at least when it comes to the carian family meaning that the 7-A rating is kinda pointless right now.
 
You have direct statements that you interpret to mean one way rather than the other. The whole thread is going over that fact. We see what he moves.
 
Mr. Bambu said:
You have direct statements that you interpret to mean one way rather than the other. The whole thread is going over that fact. We see what he moves.
Click to expand...
how else would you interpret the statements of count ymir exactly? just wave it away and say it isn't clear enough? the great rapute that literally began existence and which in turn resulted in everything and everyone being made of stardust is just to be ignored? its the first legitimate concrete confirmation of the cosmology within elden ring we have and it is damn near identical to our own which when combined with the model of the world within the carian study hall:
Elden-Ring-Carian-Study-Hall-pedestal-inverted-Ranni-Divine-Tower-of-Liurnia-.jpg

makes for a pretty clear picture of what is going on, we have direct statements that radahn stopped the fate of the carians by stopping the stars which is confirmed by ranni and we see that at the moment of his death multiple things began moving through the sky some being meteors some being astels but with the confirmation from ranni and now ymir in the DLC we know that at least 2 of those where actual no holds bar stars, we can't just ignore that and say "well it isn't clear" when we have multiple lore threads all going back to the stars and radahn stopping them
 
Sir_sun_man said:
how else would you interpret the statements of count ymir exactly? just wave it away and say it isn't clear enough? the great rapute that literally began existence and which in turn resulted in everything and everyone being made of stardust is just to be ignored? its the first legitimate concrete confirmation of the cosmology within elden ring we have and it is damn near identical to our own which when combined with the model of the world within the carian study hall:
Elden-Ring-Carian-Study-Hall-pedestal-inverted-Ranni-Divine-Tower-of-Liurnia-.jpg

makes for a pretty clear picture of what is going on, we have direct statements that radahn stopped the fate of the carians by stopping the stars which is confirmed by ranni and we see that at the moment of his death multiple things began moving through the sky some being meteors some being astels but with the confirmation from ranni and now ymir in the DLC we know that at least 2 of those where actual no holds bar stars, we can't just ignore that and say "well it isn't clear" when we have multiple lore threads all going back to the stars and radahn stopping them
Click to expand...
I've fully talked about this in this very thread. The stardust statement being linked to the Big Bang is a link made here, not something explicitly stated in the game. What that could mean in game isn't inherently what it means here, given the distinctly different cosmological issues. Furthermore, the statements provided don't prove (even if they were real, actual stars) that Radahn affected specifically them rather than the other two dozen things referred to as "stars" in the game- this, too, is a fabrication of this thread, one path chosen over the others.

I believe I presented an off-the-cuff alternative to the 'stardust' thing already, but in case I hadn't, it could well mean that the Fallingstar Beasts are simply the origin of life in ER. Or, given the discourse of magic coming from stars (read previous pages), it could be that magic is simply the origin. You have no way of definitively knowing, you're just arbitrarily choosing to believe it's 1:1 with reality when the verse goes to great pains to differentiate itself from real cosmology.

It's further ironic that you insist on evoking the images of Radahn's moving stars while conveniently avoiding talking about the impact of one such star. Which would prevent this from being Tier 4 in the first place, even if they were real stars, because we take destruction values over anything else. And the destruction value of all shown stars is 7-A.

You're not bringing any new points to the discussion. It's all information that has been processed. Respectfully, I don't see this going anywhere.
 
Mr. Bambu said:
I've fully talked about this in this very thread. The stardust statement being linked to the Big Bang is a link made here, not something explicitly stated in the game. What that could mean in game isn't inherently what it means here, given the distinctly different cosmological issues. Furthermore, the statements provided don't prove (even if they were real, actual stars) that Radahn affected specifically them rather than the other two dozen things referred to as "stars" in the game- this, too, is a fabrication of this thread, one path chosen over the others.
Click to expand...
except for the fact that you keep ignoring the falling stars and the malformed stars have no actual relation to the stars that govern the fate of the carian and a link between them is never formed, radahn like i've been saying stopped many things from moving with his gravity magic, from falling star beasts to astels to the most important part the stars that govern the fate of the carian which when combined with Ymir statements are far more likely to be actual stars like our own but with a magical element like everything else in the game (I mean hell what are we know gonna say that the moon in elden ring is not a moon even though by all cosmological classifications it would just be a moon? just because it has magical aspects to it?)
Mr. Bambu said:
I believe I presented an off-the-cuff alternative to the 'stardust' thing already, but in case I hadn't, it could well mean that the Fallingstar Beasts are simply the origin of life in ER. Or, given the discourse of magic coming from stars (read previous pages), it could be that magic is simply the origin. You have no way of definitively knowing, you're just arbitrarily choosing to believe it's 1:1 with reality when the verse goes to great pains to differentiate itself from real cosmology.
Click to expand...
fallingstar beasts are never refered to as dust or star dust, to say they in anyway would have similarity to something that specific is a reach and a half, falling star beasts are born of the void (space) and that is all that we know about them which is further confirmed in the dlc btw

gravitational missle:
"Said to have originated in the lightless dark far beyond—the home of the fallingstar beasts."

the falling star beasts or astels have little to no links to what count ymir was talking about the only real link is that both have been called stars or falling stars, but many cultures and people call meteors shooting stars, does that instantly equate them to actual stars? no.

Mr. Bambu said:
It's further ironic that you insist on evoking the images of Radahn's moving stars while conveniently avoiding talking about the impact of one such star. Which would prevent this from being Tier 4 in the first place, even if they were real stars, because we take destruction values over anything else. And the destruction value of all shown stars is 7-A.
Click to expand...
I specifically stated that some of the things falling in Radahn's cutsence are not stars but meteor's and astels and the actual valume of meteors/astels to stars is an unknown, which is something you keep ignoring, I specifically focus on the fact of the stars that govern the fates of the carian which are never refered to as astel's and have literally 0 links between the two as the astels and the fallingstar beasts are creatures that have 0 links to fate in their item descriptions and would actually not even be a good representation of a star if we would apply the magical nature of the world as their descriptions calls them malformed (if you want to equate them as 1:1 to the stars that govern fate of the carian)
Mr. Bambu said:
You're not bringing any new points to the discussion. It's all information that has been processed. Respectfully, I don't see this going anywhere.
Click to expand...
I am going into more details with the points brought up earlier which have been either skiped over or not brought up in the first place like the stars that govern the carian fates which when combined with the fact brought up by @Planck69 which is that the pole star exists in the elden ring universe and seems to be near identical to ours and the fact that we have a model of the globe in the carian study hall makes the statements of count ymir that much more concrete, a carian sorcerer that studied that stars confirms to us the begining of the unvierse started as a great rupture (a big bang) which further resulted in all living beings being made of star dust.


The only counter argument to any of that, that you brought up is that astels and fallingstar beasts have been refered to as stars/malformed stars, which is an almost none argument as their nomenclature is simply flare in it being what most people in a medival society would call an alien monster shooting down from the sky aka a star, a shooting one, a fallingone or a malformed one since they have strange and unshaply bodies for the people living within the lands between.
 
oh and another point to the stars that ymir and the carian refer to as the stars being actual stars is this here statement from one of ymir's item descriptions which is his hat

The hat of Count Ymir, High Priest. The circular design at the top represents the Greater Will and its lightless abyss, imparting increased intelligence and arcane to the wearer. Though Count Ymir instructed Rellana in the sorcerous arts, he abandoned his allegiance to the moon. "It was merely the closest of the celestial bodies. Nothing more."

the item desciption flat out states to us that the moon was the closest of the celestial bodies that the carian's could study, with them later going on to study stars as again is pointed out in the conversation with count ymir

"I, too, am a glintstone sorcerer. We study the stars, and examine the life therein."

so unless we want to argue that astels and falling star beasts are now celestial bodies I don't know how else we'd interpret the stars that govern the carian fate.
 
I will say that it's getting ridiculous just how much information and contextual clues are being thrown out in favor of the Radhan crater feat. I don't know about you but Fallingstar Beats being the origin of life, somehow commanding fate, and being celestial bodies feels a lot more convoluted than the statements just including regular stars as well as meteors.

Like, calling it an outlier would feel less ridiculous than some of the points brought up against the feat referring to stars and I don't even feel strongly about it outright scaling or not.
 
Sir_sun_man said:
except for the fact that you keep ignoring the falling stars and the malformed stars have no actual relation to the stars that govern the fate of the carian
Click to expand...
Well, presumably they do. Since one of the Stars Radahn held was a normal rock and Astel was a star with an ill omen. They all collectively govern fate, which is why they were all uniformly shackled by Radahn. The end we picked originally was just that either he stopped only meteors (7-A) or he stopped only stars with no in-between. Though in my Radahn calc I do mention this
Since this calculation is using the assumption that they would all be meteors (since if one was a star then any number gathered here is a rounding error),
Click to expand...
So we already acknowledge that the 7-A rating is an assumption that none of them coupd be stars, which the DLC would only make more difficult to accept. Since one of them could be a star.

You'd have to make a blog about the Low 4-C thing first though.

Sir_sun_man said:
statement from one of ymir's item descriptions which is his hat
Click to expand...
While I agree with your sentiment, I do have to be intellectually honest. This is the text in Japanese:
大司祭の帽子
大司祭、ユミル卿の帽子
頭上の真円は、大いなる意志その暗黒の深淵を現しており知力と神秘を高める
レラーナの魔術教授であった男はだが、月への忠誠を棄てていた
それはただ、我らの近くにあったにすぎぬ
Click to expand...
The word "Celestial Bodies" is not used afaik. It's just noted that Ymir threw away his moon worship, saying "it was just close to us".
 
except for the fact that you keep ignoring the falling stars and the malformed stars have no actual relation to the stars that govern the fate of the carian and a link between them is never formed, radahn like i've been saying stopped many things from moving with his gravity magic, from falling star beasts to astels to the most important part the stars that govern the fate of the carian which when combined with Ymir statements are far more likely to be actual stars like our own but with a magical element like everything else in the game (I mean hell what are we know gonna say that the moon in elden ring is not a moon even though by all cosmological classifications it would just be a moon? just because it has magical aspects to it?)
Click to expand...
It is a presumption on your part that they are different stars. There are small hints (like Astel being the final major obstacle in Ranni's quest). It is a further assumption that Radahn is stopping multiple types of stars. We just see the damage from one, and that gets handwaved away. I didn't argue against the moon, dunno what you're talking about there.

fallingstar beasts are never refered to as dust or star dust, to say they in anyway would have similarity to something that specific is a reach and a half, falling star beasts are born of the void (space) and that is all that we know about them which is further confirmed in the dlc btw

gravitational missle:
"Said to have originated in the lightless dark far beyond—the home of the fallingstar beasts."

the falling star beasts or astels have little to no links to what count ymir was talking about the only real link is that both have been called stars or falling stars, but many cultures and people call meteors shooting stars, does that instantly equate them to actual stars? no.
Click to expand...
You're right, but they do have abilities that could aptly be referred to as Stardust. Look at the Astel fight, cosmic imagery is evoked in practically every attack he possesses short of a random swipe of a claw.

I am going into more details with the points brought up earlier which have been either skiped over or not brought up in the first place like the stars that govern the carian fates which when combined with the fact brought up by @Planck69 which is that the pole star exists in the elden ring universe and seems to be near identical to ours and the fact that we have a model of the globe in the carian study hall makes the statements of count ymir that much more concrete, a carian sorcerer that studied that stars confirms to us the begining of the unvierse started as a great rupture (a big bang) which further resulted in all living beings being made of star dust.
Click to expand...
The continued return to astrological phrases doesn't matter in a verse that establishes many, many equally important definitions of such phrases. "Constellations" as a phrase amounts to nothing in terms of proof when we're dealing with a verse that establishes "stars" as creatures, it could just as easily refer to a group of creatures (or a grouping of anything else referred to as 'stars'). Also: no. All of these are points that have been discussed. It isn't new in any way.
 
Qawsedf234 said:
The word "Celestial Bodies" is not used afaik. It's just noted that Ymir threw away his moon worship, saying "it was just close to us".
Click to expand...
hmm didn't know that, that makes it a bit more questionable.

hmmmm.

eh put me down for at least 7-A likely high 4-C then

since that is a pretty big piece I was going off of.

I still think its more than likely that radahn stopped actual stars due to the count ymir items and dialogue but that being not present in the OG japanese text makes it a bit more questionable (cuse if that was in the OG that is just about as close to flat out confirmed we could've gotten)
 
ArkhamDC06 said:
As much as I would love for one of my favorite games of all times to be that high, I agree. 4-B seems too far fetched for me
Click to expand...
Yeah. Honestly I’d be more open too it if there was proof that Radahn stopped mostly gaseous stars as opposed to falling stars, there’s still the problem Qaw mentioned about the number of stars needed for it to be 4-B being too high to meet.

As of now then, I’ll stick by “Low 4-C, likely High 4-C” being the best option.
 

The vote count was on Thursday. If any more staff feel inclined to weigh in, they can. But it's been more than enough time and discussion to put this through. 3 votes (largely in compromise) to change it to "At least 7-A, likely High 4-C". Someone put through the edits and state here when they're done.
 
S'pose that'd be better justification for the current "likely High 4-C" bit, yeah. Go for it.
 
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