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A Song of Ice and Fire Downgrade

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Ser_Hakim_Dayne said:
Rhaegar Targaryen: Could face Prime Robert Baratheon in single combat and injure him (Source: A Game of Thrones, Eddard II and The World of Ice and Fire, The Fall of the Dragons)
Daemon Targaryen: Was a renowned warrior skilled in the joust, hunting, and swordplay and excelled at it (Source: Fire and Blood, Heirs of the Dragon - A Question of Succession.)
Jaehaerys Targaryen: Ser Elyas Scales, Jaehaerys's master-at-arms, claimed that Jaehaerys had enough skill to beat his uncle Maegor in combat, had Maegor still lived (Source: Fire and Blood, A Surfeit of Rulers.)
Maegor Targaryen: Was one of the best fighters in the Seven Kingdoms and fearsomely strong man (Source; Fire and Blood, The Sons of the Dragon)
Visenya Targaryen: Since young age, Visenya trained together with Aegon at arms, and she became a skilled warrior, was as much a warrior as Aegon himself (Source: Fire and Blood, Aegon's Conquest.)
Aegon Targaryen: He was counted amongst the greatest warriors of his age (Source: Fire and Blood, Aegon's Conquest.)
Duncan: Duncan joined the Kingsguard, and later became the Lord Commander (Source: The World of Ice & Fire, The Targaryen Kings: Aegon V and A Storm of Swords, Jaime VIII). The Kingsguard are the finest knights in the Seven Kingdoms (Source: A Game of Thrones, Bran II and A Feast for Crows, The Queenmaker). Defeated Lyonel Baratheon in a trial by combat (Source: The World of Ice & Fire, The Targaryen Kings: Aegon V and The Stormlands: House Baratheon), Lyonel was on the greatest fighters of his day (Source: The World of Ice & Fire, The Stormlands: House Baratheon.)
Three-Eyed Crow: GRRM stated GRRM said Brynden Rivers was a good swordsman (Source: So Spake Martin: Concerning the Great Bastards (April 06, 2004 ). Fought Aegor Rivers in single combat twice (Source: The Sworn Sword and The World of Ice & Fire, The Targaryen Kings: Daeron II and Aerys I), and Aegor was one of the best fighter in the Seven Kingdoms (Source: The Sworn Sword).
Daemon Blackfyre: Was one of the best fighters in the Seven Kingdoms (The Sworn Sword)
Aemon Targaryen: He proved the greatest jouster and swordsman of his age (The World of Ice & Fire, The Targaryen Kings: Viserys II.)
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Correction:

Maegor Targaryen: Described as one of the best fighters in the Seven Kingdoms and fearsomely strong man (Source; Fire and Blood, The Sons of the Dragon)
Daemon Blackfyre: Eustace Osgrey stated that not even Aemon the Dragonknight can beat Daemon Blackfyre (The Sworn Sword). Note: the veracity of this statement is debatable
 
Eddard Stark: Fought against Arthur Dayne, Gerold Hightower and Oswald Whent with the help of six other allies (Source: A Game of Thrones, Eddard X).
Robb Stark: Trained with Jon Snow several times during their childhoods (Source: A Storm of Swords, Jon XII).
Jorah Mormont: Killed the Dothraki Qotho in single combat (Source: A Game of Thrones, Daenerys VIII), and Jorah is respected by the Dothraki for his swordsmanship (Source: A Game of Thrones, Daenerys V)
Jon Snow: Fought against Qhorin Halfhand (Source: A Clash of Kings, Jon VIII) and Mance Rayder (A Dance with Dragons, Jon VI), but was weaker than them.
Jon Umber: Jaime Lannister considered the Greatjon to be stronger than him (Source: A Storm of Swords, Jaime III).
Mance Rayder: Stronger than Jon Snow (Source: A Dance with Dragons, Jon VI).
Tormund (his profile has not yet been created): Said he could outfight Mance Rayder (Source: A Storm of Swords, Jon I)
 
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Tywin Lannister: Young= Was a knight who fought in the War of the Ninepenny Kings (Source: The World of Ice & Fire, The Targaryen Kings: Aerys II). Old = Tyrion stated Tywin was in his middle fifties, but yet hard as man of twenty, with broad shoulders, flat stomach and thin arms and muscled (Source: A Game of Thrones, Tyrion VII.)
Jaime Lannister: George R. R. Martin stated that Jaime was one of the greatest swordsmen in Westerosi history (Source: https://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/MTV_Worldcon_Interview_Versus, LOTR vs ASOIAF), and the greatest as of 298 AC (Source: 27:26). Brienne claimed that no knight in the Seven Kingdoms could defeat Jaime in his prime (Source: A Feast for Crows, Brienne I). A 15-year-old Jaime fought against the Smiling Knight, a dangerous swordsman who has already fighting Arthur Dayne and Barristan Selmy (Source: A Storm of Swords, Jaime VIII)
Tyrion Lannister: Killed some men and soldiers during fights and battles (Source: A Game of Thrones, Tyrion IV, A Game of Thrones,Tyrion VIII and A Clash of Kings, Tyrion XIV). GRRM said Tyrion was trained at arms (So Spake Martin: Tyrion's Training (May 09, 1999)).
Sandor Clegane: Jaime Lannister considered Sandor to be stronger than him (Source: A Storm of Swords, Jaime III). Can contend with Gregor (Source: A Game of Thrones, Eddard VII)
Gregor Clegane: Jaime Lannister considered Gregor to be stronger than him, and he described his strength as inhuman (Source: A Storm of Swords, Jaime III)
 
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Robert Baratheon: Easily knocked Jaime Lannister to the ground (A Game of Thrones, Sansa II). Jaime Lannister considered Robert to be stronger than him (Source: A Storm of Swords, Jaime III), and his strength was known as fabled (A Feast for Crows, Brienne VIII), higher with his warhammer, Even while wounded, Robert was able to kill Rhaegar Targaryen with a single blow to the chest from his warhammer, despite Rhaegar wearing armor at the time (A Game of Thrones, Eddard I).
Stannis Baratheon: Like his brothers, Robert and Renly, Stannis is a large man - tall, broad-shouldered, and sinewy (A Clash of Kings, Prologue.)
Renly Baratheon: Renly is described as a powerful and muscled man (A Game of Thrones, Sansa I and A Clash of Kings, Prologue)
Barristan Selmy: Old = George R. R. Martin described him as one of the greatest active swordsmen in Westeros (Source). Prime: Fought and killed Maelys Blackfyre in single combat (Soure: The World of Ice & Fire, The Targaryen Kings: Jaehaerys II, A Storm of Swords, Jaime VIII, A Dance with Dragons, Tyrion II and A Dance with Dragons, The Kingbreaker). George R. R. Martin stated that a fight between Barristan and Arthur Dayne, with them wielding regular weapons, would might be a toss-up (Source: So Spake Martin: The Sword of the Morning vs. Barristan the Bold (September 02, 2011)). Eddard Stark said Barristan was the finest sword of the Seven Kingdoms in his youth (A Game of Thrones, Eddard VII.)
Brienne Tarth: Jaime Lannister considered Brienne to be stronger than him (A Storm of Swords, Jaime III), and he stated that she was almost as strong as Gregor Clegane (A Storm of Swords, Jaime VII).
Beric Dondarrion: Contended with Sandor Clegane, but was weaker than him (A Storm of Swords, Arya VI).
Anguy: Is an exceptional archer (A Game of Thrones, Eddard VII and A Feast for Crows, Appendix).
Criston Cole (his profile has not yet been created): Defeated Daemon Targaryen during an melee (Fire & Blood, Heirs of the Dragon - A Question of Succession) and the Knight of Kisses Joffrey Lonmouth and Harwin Strong (Source: Fire & Blood, Heirs of the Dragon - A Question of Succession) during another. Harwing Strong was said to be the strongest man in the Seven Kingdoms in his day and he was described as being massive and redoubtable (Source: Fire & Blood, Heirs of the Dragon - A Question of Succession.)
 
Oberyn Martell: Mortally wounded Gregor Clegane during their fight (A Storm of Swords, Tyrion X).
Arthur Dayne: Jaime Lannister considered Arthur to be stronger than him (Source: A Storm of Swords, Jaime III). George R. R. Martin stated that a fight between Arthur and Barristan Selmy, with them wielding regular weapons, would might be a toss-up, but with Dawn Arthur wins (Source: So Spake Martin: The Sword of the Morning vs. Barristan the Bold (September 02, 2011)). It is said twice that Arthur was the deadliest member of the Kingsguard of Aerys II (A Game of Thrones, Catelyn II and The World of Ice & Fire, Dorne: The Sword of the Morning.)
 
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Garlan Tyrell: Loras Tyrell stated that Garlan was superior to him in swordsmanship (A Storm of Swords, Sansa I), which was reiterated by George R. R. Martin (Source)
Loras Tyrell: George R. R. Martin described him as one of the greatest active swordsmen in Westeros (Source, https://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1264). Held his own against Brienne (A Clash of Kings, Catelyn II)
Randyll Tarly: The marcher lords of the stormlands have a strong martial tradition (So Spake Martin: The Stormlands), and the men of the marches are the fiercest fighters of the Stormlands (The World of Ice and Fire: The Stormlands, the Men of the Stormlands)

Balon Greyjoy (his profile has not yet been created): Has been described as being as quick and skilled at arms as his father (The World of Ice & Fire, The Iron Islands: The Old Way and the New)
Euron Greyjoy: Fought at the battle at the Mander (The World of Ice & Fire, The Iron Islands: The Old Way and the New and A Feast for Crows, The Prophet)
Victarion Greyjoy: Is a fearsome warrior (A Clash of Kings, Theon II) and a large and powerful man with a bull's broad chest and a boy's flat stomach (A Feast for Crows, The Iron Captain). Fought Talbert Serry, a skilled swordsman (A Feast for Crows, The Reaver)
Theon Greyjoy: Trained several times with Jon and Robb (A Dance with Dragons, The Prince of Winterfell).
 
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Lyn Corbray: Said he's the finest sword in the Vale of Arryn (A Game of Thrones, Tyrion V), and he personally finished off the wounded Prince Lewyn Martell of the Aerys's Kingsguard (A Feast for Crows, Alayne I).
Yohn Royce: Defeated Eddard Stark and Rodrik Cassel in a sparring match (A Feast for Crows, Alayne I), Rodrik Cassel was the master-at-arms of Winterfell who trained Jon, Robb and Theon (A Dance with Dragons, Jon VI, A Game of Thrones, Jon IV and A Clash of Kings, Theon VI)

Bronn: Catelyn stated that Bronn was one of the fiercest fighter she had ever seen (A Game of Thrones, Catelyn VI), and Tyrion said Bronn was almost as good at swordsmanship as Jaime (A Game of Thrones, Tyrion VII)
Qhorin Halfhand (his profile has not yet been created): Qhorin was one of the deadliest Night's Watch members (A Clash of Kings, Jon VIII)
 
Ser_Hakim_Dayne said:
Yohn Royce: Defeated Eddard Stark and Rodrik Cassel in a sparring match (A Feast for Crows, Alayne I), Rodrik Cassel was the master-at-arms of Winterfell who trained Jon, Robb and Theon (A Dance with Dragons, Jon VI, A Game of Thrones, Jon IV and A Clash of Kings, Theon VI)
Click to expand...
And he also defeated Thoros of Myr during an melee (A Clash of Kings, Davos I)
 
Ser_Hakim_Dayne said:
Jaime Lannister: George R. R. Martin stated that Jaime was one of the greatest swordsmen in Westerosi history (Source: https://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/MTV_Worldcon_Interview_Versus, LOTR vs ASOIAF), and the greatest as of 298 AC (Source: 27:26). Brienne claimed that no knight in the Seven Kingdoms could defeat Jaime in his prime (Source: A Feast for Crows, Brienne I). A 15-year-old Jaime fought against the Smiling Knight, a dangerous swordsman who has already faced Arthur Dayne and Barristan Selmy (Source: A Storm of Swords, Jaime VIII)
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We can also add this, in AP and Speed: Jaime said he was stronger and quicker than Loras when he was the same age (Source: A Storm of Swords, Jaime VIII), and Eddard Stark said/implied Jaime Lannister was more dangerous than Sandor Clegane (A Game of Thrones, Eddard XII.) I'm not really sure about the second one, here's the quote to see what you think: Of all the Lannister party, Sandor Clegane was the one who concerned him the most, now that Ser Jaime had fled the city to join his father.
And : Jaime said he was more dangerous member of the Robert's Kingsguard (A Clash of Kings, Tyrion I)

Should we also add this famous quote in the AP and Speed for Jaime?
"She is stronger than I am.
The realization chilled him. Robert had been stronger than him, to be sure. The White Bull Gerold Hightower as well, in his heyday, and Ser Arthur Dayne. Amongst the living, Greatjon Umber was stronger, Strongboar of Crakehall most likely, both Cleganes for a certainty. The Mountain's strength was like nothing human. It did not matter. With speed and skill, Jaime could beat them all."
 
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Syrio Forel: Easily defeated five Lannister's men-at-arms at once (A Game of Thrones, Arya IV). Syrio was the First Sword of Braavos (same source), and by tradition this title is given to the greatest swordsman in the city (The World of Ice & Fire, The Free Cities: Braavos)
Belwas: Fought Jorah Mormont (A Clash of Kings, Daenerys V). Claims he never lost a fight and he allows his opponents to cut him once before they die (same source). Belwas said he was better than Khrazz (A Dance with Dragons, Daenerys IX) Note: the veracity of this statement is debatable
Drogo: He never lost a fight (A Game of Thrones, Daenerys I). He should be a superior fighter to his bloodriders, who can fight against Jorah Mormont (A Game of Thrones, Daenerys VIII)
Areo Hotah: Killed Arys Oakheart (A Feast for Crows, The Queenmaker). Arys Oakheart was a member of Robert's Kingsguard for 10 years (A Feast for Crows, The Soiled Knight), so he had to train with Jaime Lannister and Barristan Selmy many times .
Jaqen H'ghar: Feared by Rorge (A Clash of Kings, Arya VIII), who can fight with Brienne (A Feast for Crows, Brienne VII).
Maelys Blackfyre: Killed a horse with a single punch and could tear a man's head clean off his shoulders (The World of Ice & Fire, The Targaryen Kings: Jaehaerys II).
Khrazz: Fought Barristan Selmy (A Dance with Dragons, The Kingbreaker). Hizdahr zo Loraq said there has never been a better pit fighter than Khrazz (A Dance with Dragons, Daenerys IX) Note: the veracity of this statement is debatable
Grey Worm: The Unsullied were trained from dawn to dusk until they have mastered the shortsword, the shield, and the three spears (A Storm of Swords, Daenerys II)
Thoros of Myr: Thoros defeated three times Sandor Clegane in the mêlées, thanks to swords aflame with wildfire (A Storm of Swords, Arya VI)
 
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Valyrian steel: Valyrian steel blades are lighter, stronger, harder, and sharper than even the best castle-forged steel (A Dance with Dragons, Jon XII). It is stated that even the best of mail is hard-pressed to turn Valyrian steel (Fire & Blood, The Long Reign - Jaehaerys and Alysanne: Policy, Progeny, and Pain)
Dawn: GRRM stated Dawn is more potent than Valyrian Steel (Source, 13:12). While wielded by Arthur Dayne, Dawn was able to notch the Smiling Knight's sword (Source: A Storm of Swords, Jaime VIII). Dawn’s blade is so sharp that just resting it on someone's shoulder cut through the cloth of his shirt and split his skin (A Feast for Crows, Jaime I.)
Direwolves: When Greatjon Umber menaced Robb during an audience, Grey Wind bit two of his fingers off (A Game of Thrones, Bran VI). Direwolves are stronger than wolves (A Storm of Swords, Bran I)
Wights: Wights can physically match direwolves (A Game of Thrones, on VII), and rip off heads (A Storm of Swords, Samwell I)
Shadow assassins: Killed Renly Baratheon with a single strike, cutting through his steel gorget in the process,. Loras told Jaime that Renly had the best armor, made of the finest steel, and that even the Mountain would have needed a heavy axe to accomplish this feat (A Storm of Swords, Jaime VIII), higher at the Wall, According to Melisandre, the Wall is a powerful magical place and that the shadows she could create here would be terrible, and that no creature of the dark will stand before them (A Dance with Dragons, Melisandre I)
Others: Easily defeated Waymar Royce, a skilled swordsman (A Game of Thrones, Prologue)
Rhoynar: Water wizards can affect dragons with waterspouts, and they can destroy and drown entire cities via water from the Rhoyne river. Chroyane, the largest Rhoynar city, was destroyed in a single night (The World of Ice & Fire, Ancient History: Ten Thousand Ships)
Giants: Mag Mar Tun Doh Weg was able to wrench the bars of an iron gate apart (A Storm of Swords, Jon VIII). Wun Weg Wun Dar Wun could shake the ground by striking it (A Dance with Dragons, Jon VIII).
Ibbenese: They are described as ferociously strong, and that in wrestling, their favorite sport, no man of the Seven Kingdoms can hope to equal them (The World of Ice & Fire, Beyond the Free Cities: Ib)
 
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When we're done with Attack Potency, we'll have to deal with Speed (downgrade, justifications and correction) and Lifting Strength (I don't know how to assign classes to characters, I don't know exactly how it works here.)
 
Ser_Hakim_Dayne said:
Bronn: Catelyn stated that Bronn was one of the fiercest fighter she had ever seen (A Game of Thrones, Catelyn VI), and Tyrion said Bronn was almost as good at swordsmanship as Jaime (A Game of Thrones, Tyrion VII)
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I forgot one important thing: Bronn said he could beat the Mountain (A Storm of Swords, Tyrion IX).
 
Yeah no, I don’t think we should take that as solid evidence.
 
Hellbeast said:
TBH should we be taking Bronn at his word?
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Possibly:

"Might be I could take him. Dance around him until he was so tired of hacking at me that he couldn't lift this sword. Get him off his feet somehow. When they're flat on their backs it don't matter how tall they are."

Supported by the other justifications I cited above for his profile
 
Ser_Hakim_Dayne said:
Possibly:

"Might be I could take him. Dance around him until he was so tired of hacking at me that he couldn't lift this sword. Get him off his feet somehow. When they're flat on their backs it don't matter how tall they are."

Supported by the other justifications I cited above for his profile
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Eh still a bit shifty, Bronn is fairly arrogant and we've seen that strategy fail.
 
But if nobody agrees it doesn't matter when I think about it, Bronn doesn't need this statement to be Street level, I have already cited stronger evidence for this scaling
 
LordTracer said:
Jaehaerys I
Aemon the Dragonknight
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I'd rather remove Visenya than them. Jaehaerys is a very important character in Fire and Blood, more so than Visenya, and there are more notable combat feats and statements than her. For Aemon he is one of the most popular knights in history, and he will become quite important in the next Fire and Blood book as well.
LordTracer said:
Tyrion
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Well, I once asked to delete Daenerys's, but it was not accepted, so I would be surprised if it was accepted for Tyrion there too.
LordTracer said:
Stannis
Anguy
Randyll Tarly
Littlefinger
Coldhands
Areo Hotah
Khrazz
Shadow Assassins (should be merged with Melisandre’s profile)
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Agree, but if Littlefinger is included Varys should be too. I also agree to merge the Shadow Assassin's profile with that of Melisandre.
LordTracer said:
Valyrians
Rhoynar
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Hmmm I don't know, it would still be cool and interesting to have profiles of civilizations, especially when they are the most powerful
LordTracer said:
Ibbenese
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Definitely agree
 
Ser_Hakim_Dayne said:
I'd rather remove Visenya than them. Jaehaerys is a very important character in Fire and Blood, more so than Visenya, and there are more notable combat feats and statements than her. For Aemon he is one of the most popular knights in history, and he will become quite important in the next Fire and Blood book as well.
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Jaehaerys is important, but that’s moreso because of his wisdom than his combat ability, no?

I don’t particularly mind deleting Visenya even though she’s one of my favorites, but I don’t really see why Jaehaerys needs to stay either.

I suppose Aemon can stay for now.
Ser_Hakim_Dayne said:
Well, I once asked to delete Daenerys's, but it was not accepted, so I would be surprised if it was accepted for Tyrion there too.
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Daenerys at least has the benefit of her dragons and I don’t mind deleting her too, but Tyrion doesn’t have much going for him aside from his intelligence and social influencing.
Ser_Hakim_Dayne said:
Agree, but if Littlefinger is included Varys should be too. I also agree to merge the Shadow Assassin's profile with that of Melisandre.
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I didn’t realize Varys had a page, but yeah, he can be deleted as well.
Ser_Hakim_Dayne said:
Hmmm I don't know, it would still be cool and interesting to have profiles of civilizations, especially when they are the most powerful
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I guess they could stay, but the Valyrian profile definitely needs some work done.
 
LordTracer said:
Jaehaerys is important, but that’s moreso because of his wisdom than his combat ability, no?
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Yes.
LordTracer said:
Daenerys at least has the benefit of her dragons and I don’t mind deleting her too, but Tyrion doesn’t have much going for him aside from his intelligence and social influencing.
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Well why not, if they agree to delete it it's ok for me.
LordTracer said:
I didn’t realize Varys had a page, but yeah, he can be deleted as well.
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Ramsay too I think
LordTracer said:
I guess they could stay, but the Valyrian profile definitely needs some work done.
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For a few days I have been working on the profiles by adding references and doing some updates.
 
LordTracer said:
vsbattles.fandom.com

LordTracer/ASOIAF

vsbattles.fandom.com vsbattles.fandom.com
I have to question if all of these profiles need to exist, but the sandbox is done.
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"Attack Potency: Unknown physically, Street level with a Spear (Mortally wounded Gregor Clegane[1])"

Why Oberyn is not Street level physically like the other characters?

"higher with his burnt hand (Victarion claimed that his left hand, healed with the fire of the red priest Moqorro, is even stronger than before)"

Source: A Dance with Dragons, Victarion I
 
"Attack Potency: Street level (While weaker, he could fight with Qhorin Halfhand[1], who is stated to be one of, if not the best fighter in the Night’s Watch"

I also suggest changing this "who is stated to be one of, if not the best fighter in the Night’s Watch" by "it is implied that he is one of the best fighter in the Night's Watch"
 
Ser_Hakim_Dayne said:
"higher with his burnt hand (Victarion claimed that his left hand, healed with the fire of the red priest Moqorro, is even stronger than before)"

Source: A Dance with Dragons, Victarion I
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I also think we should create two keys for Victarion, one before his hand was burned and one after, no?
 
Ser_Hakim_Dayne said:
"Attack Potency: Unknown physically, Street level with a Spear (Mortally wounded Gregor Clegane[1])"

Why Oberyn is not Street level physically like the other characters?
Click to expand...
The only feat you gave for him is something that wouldn’t scale to him physically.
Ser_Hakim_Dayne said:
I also think we should create two keys for Victarion, one before his hand was burned and one after, no?
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I don’t see why that would be necessary, just specifying that his burnt hand is stronger should be fine.
 
LordTracer said:
The only feat you gave for him is something that wouldn’t scale to him physically.
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Oberyn is a renowned warrior (A Storm of Swords, Tyrion V) and it's implied he was one of the Dorne's finest sword (The Winds of Winter, Arianne I)
 
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Stannis should be Street level too (if his profile is not deleted), he was a knight (Source, A Clash of Kings, Prologue. He has knighted Davos, and except for a king, only a knight or a lord formerly a knight can do that ) and he no doubt trained with Robert when they were younger (no particular source, they are brothers and they are only 1 or 2 years apart so logically they learned swordsmanship together).
 
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Hellbeast said:
I feel that’s skill rather then strength tbh
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Like the justifications for most characters not being described stronger than Jaime.

But since Eddard Stark is 9-C via downscaling with Arthur Dayne, any fighter with above average skill should be easily 9-C too.
 
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