Concept of Ice and Fire

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

Explanation of the Last Kiss of the Red Priests:

"I have no magic, child. Only prayers. That first time, his lordship had a hole right through him and blood in his mouth, I knew there was no hope. So when his poor torn chest stopped moving, I gave him the good god's own kiss to send him on his way. I filled my mouth with fire and breathed the flames inside him, down his throat to lungs and heart and soul. The last kiss it is called, and many a time I saw the old priests bestow it on the Lord's servants as they died. I had given it a time or two myself, as all priests must. But never before had I felt a dead man shudder as the fire filled him, nor seen his eyes come open. It was not me who raised him, my lady. It was the Lord. R'hllor is not done with him yet. Life is warmth, and warmth is fire, and fire is God's and God's alone."

A Storm of Swords - Arya VII​

So Thoros used fire to revive Beric Dondarrion. It's not a metaphor, it's literal, he literally used fire to resurrect him. Firstly because the red priests only use fire manipulation, and secondly because George R.R. Martin said that:

Right. And poor Beric Dondarrion, who was set up as the foreshadowing of all this, every time he’s a little less Beric. His memories are fading, he’s got all these scars, he’s becoming more and more physically hideous, because he’s not a living human being anymore. His heart isn’t beating, his blood isn’t flowing in his veins, he’s a wight, but a wight animated by fire instead of by ice, now we’re getting back to the whole fire and ice thing.

George R. R. Martin on the One 'Game of Thrones' Change He 'Argued Against'

A rare interview with the author of the A Song of Ice and Fire book series

time.com

Martin has explicitly said that Beric is a wight animated by fire instead of by ice, suggesting it's literal. The ice refers to the wights animated by the White Walkers.

For "the whole fire and ice thing" that GRRM mentions, he talks about this:

"I mean... Fire is love, fire is passion, fire is sexual ardor and all of these things. Ice is betrayal, ice is revenge, ice is… you know, that kind of cold inhumanity and all that stuff is being played out in the books."

George R.R. Martin: “Trying to please everyone is a horrible mistake”

Interview with George R.R. Martin, author of A Game of Thrones.

www.adriasnews.com

And this, which comes from the first quote of the post:

"Life is warmth, and warmth is fire"

It's about the idea that fire represents life and ice represents death.
The dead animated by fire have consciousness and they still feel emotions, they are warm like life. The dead animated by ice have no consciousness, they are zombies, they have no emotions, they are cold as death.

All this proves that the Red Priests and White Walkers use fire and ice, respectively, on an abstract level.
This should be concept manipulation.

And I should also mention that this isn't the first time GRRM has done this. In the children's novel Ice Dragon, an ice dragon had a cold manipulation that made a little girl emotionally cold. Ice manipulation on an abstract level there too.

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

The following profiles will be affected by this revision if it is accepted:

• Beric Dondarrion
• Melisandre
• Thoros
• The Others

Note: Melisandre has not yet been shown using the last kiss in the books, but she remains an experienced Red Priest who uses fire manipulation. So his flames still operate on an abstract level by default.

Beric has also been shown to create fire with just his blood, supporting the fact the fire of the Red Priests, and Fire Wights, is linked to life:

Unsmiling, Lord Beric laid the edge of his longsword against the palm of his left hand, and drew it slowly down. Blood ran dark from the gash he made, and washed over the steel.
And then the sword took fire.
Arya heard Gendry whisper a prayer.

A Storm of Swords - Arya VI​

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

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[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

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[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

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[Lynieryz]

The whole thing with the fire seemed like a metaphor for something else... But where is the manipulation of concepts coming from? The most I see is resurrection through "Last Kiss".

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

The whole thing with the fire seemed like a metaphor for something else...

What do you mean?

But where is the manipulation of concepts coming from? The most I see is resurrection through "Last Kiss".

From the Fire/Ice manip at an abstract level

 

[Lynieryz]

What do you mean?

Nothing...

From the Fire/Ice manip at an abstract level

"I mean... Fire is love, fire is passion, fire is sexual ardor and all of these things. Ice is betrayal, ice is revenge, ice is… you know, that kind of cold inhumanity and all that stuff is being played out in the books."

From that? This is not even close to enough as it would require something much more detailed, which indicates the literality of fire/ice being these concepts and not something that indicates emotional representation in a figurative sense.

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

From that? This is not even close to enough as it would require something much more detailed, which indicates the literality of fire/ice being these concepts and not something that indicates emotional representation in a figurative sense.

My entire post proves it,

 

[Lynieryz]

My entire post proves it,

It's not enough, your quotes are demonstrating representation in an emotional and figurative sense, you need something much more definitive.

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

you need something much more definitive.

We're talking about fire users who can resurrect the dead. They're just using fire manipulation, there's no reason to think they're using life manipulation out of nowhere. And Thoros says "I filled my mouth with fire".
The easier explanation here is that they use fire on an abstract level to give life.

As I already explained, this is not the first time that GRRM has done this in his works

 

[Lynieryz]

We're talking about fire users who can resurrect the dead. They're just using fire manipulation, there's no reason to think they're using life manipulation out of nowhere. And Thoros says "I filled my mouth with fire".
The easier explanation here is that they use fire on an abstract level to give life.

As I already explained, this is not the first time that GRRM has done this in his works

And that's not close enough, Yeon's flames in Tower of God are also capable of reviving the dead and are directly linked with vitality and that means nothing for conceptual manipulation, the wiki is strict with conceptual manipulation, it is necessary for concepts to be mentioned or for it to be cosmologically indicated that concepts are being manipulated and nothing you have presented comes close of what is needed.

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

the wiki is strict with conceptual manipulation, it is necessary for concepts to be mentioned

Many characters have concept manipulation without the word "concept" being used in their feats on the wiki. Abstract manipulation is enough to have concept manipulation on this wiki.

or for it to be cosmologically indicated that concepts are being manipulated

You don't need to manipulate a concept at a universal level or higher to have concept manipulation

 

[Lynieryz]

Many characters have concept manipulation without the word "concept" being used in their feats on the wiki. Abstract manipulation is enough to have concept manipulation on this wiki.


You don't need to manipulate a concept at a universal level or higher to have concept manipulation

The concepts you are addressing are all universal concepts so personal concepts are irrelevant here.

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

The concepts you are addressing are all universal concepts so personal concepts are irrelevant here.

I don't understand what you mean

 

[Lynieryz]

You don't need to manipulate a concept at a universal level or higher to have concept manipulation

This is only the case when it is a personal concept and the concepts that are mentioned in relation to ice/fire are universal concepts.

And these are the requirements for universal concepts:

it is necessary for concepts to be mentioned or for it to be cosmologically indicated that concepts are being manipulated and nothing you have presented comes close of what is needed.

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

This is only the case when it is a personal concept and the concepts that are mentioned in relation to ice/fire are universal concepts.

And these are the requirements for universal concepts:

So if it says that a character manipulates a universal concept but hasn't shown being able to do it on a cosmological level, that's not concept manipulation? It's weird

 

[Lynieryz]

So if it says that a character manipulates a universal concept but hasn't shown being able to do it on a cosmological level, that's not concept manipulation? It's weird

Yes, for instance, when manipulating the concept of gravity, it must demonstrate that this manipulation literally affects gravity as a whole, because gravity is a universal concept.

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

Yes, for instance, when manipulating the concept of gravity, it must demonstrate that this manipulation literally affects gravity as a whole, because gravity is a universal concept.

Why can't a character just manipulate a concept on a specific scale? Not giving the concept to a character who has it explicitly or implicitly seems far-fetched to me.

 

[Lynieryz]

Why can't a character just manipulate a concept on a specific scale? Not giving the concept to a character who has it explicitly or implicitly seems far-fetched to me.

They can, but proving this without concepts being directly mentioned or being 100% explicit that the case is manipulation of concepts is impossible; Ironically, proving a manipulation on a specific scale is a thousand times more difficult than proving a manipulation of the entire concept.

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

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[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

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[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

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[Hypertornado099]

How in the world is this conceptual manipulation? This is at best just life manipulation. "Representing" life and warmth is in no way conceptual or AE for the same reason why technology representing innovation wouldn't give it AE

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

How in the world is this conceptual manipulation? This is at best just life manipulation. "Representing" life and warmth is in no way conceptual or AE for the same reason why technology representing innovation wouldn't give it AE

Again, it's not metaphorical but literal.
Red priests can literally give life through fire.

it's fire manipulation on an abstract level.

 

[Hypertornado099]

Again, it's not metaphorical but literal.
Red priests can literally give life through fire.

it's fire manipulation on an abstract level.

I already addressed that. Even if it was literal, "representing" life and warmth is not abstract or conceptual

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

I already addressed that. Even if it was literal, "representing" life and warmth is not abstract or conceptual

The fire of the red priests is not abstract yes, but it functions at this level. Fire manipulation which makes life manipulation because fire represents life it is clearly an abstract manipulation of the element.

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

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[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

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[Antvasima]

@LordTracer @EliminatorVenom @LephyrTheRevanchist @Duedate8898 @Theglassman12

What do you think about this?

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

While the idea behind it is certainly something more metaphysical, with what "fire is" in the verse, unfortunately is not enough for our ratings. George is very symbolic with his writing, with lots of allegories. He's likening the warmth of life with that provided by fire, which is from where the belief in the Lord of Flames (and Light) comes from with his role as the ultimate opponent of the White Walkers.

But is not enough to warrant conceptual manipulation. The others are correct that this would simply grant life manipulation instead.

If George elaborates more on the relationship between the fire the priests manipulate to the more "divine fire" the Lord of Light represents, then we could get a possibly rating if not a more direct one.