(ACCEPTED) (Terraria Downgrade) Regarding the Wall of Flesh and Celestial Pillars

[DuckyMcLucky]

Hello, just wanted to make a quick little CRT.

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The Wall of Flesh's Solar Eclipse scaling​

Currently, our wiki scales the Wall of Flesh to Moon level because of it "sealing away the spirits of light and dark" (Hardmode), and that after killing it, Solar Eclipses happen. This line of scaling feels weak to me as a couple things go against it:

The spirits of light and dark have never been implied to be the cause of any event in hardmode, and are actually more likely to only be related to the Hallow and World Evil as the message only displays once the "V" shape transformation occurs.

The lore pages that Re-Logic created also state that it is the World that releases the spirits, meaning that the Wall of Flesh may not even scale to their transformation. Although, this may contradict the WoF's bestiary entry, which states that it exists to keep the ancient spirits sealed away, but this could also be explained as the World being forced to release the spirits when the WoF dies.

The Solar Eclipse is also technically is only able to happen once a mech boss is killed, which does further show that the WoF probably doesn't scale to the eclipse, but this could easily just be written off as game mechanics.

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The Celestial Pillars' "moon moving" feats​

The feat currently used to justify the Pillars' Brown Dwarf level is that they "move the moon" closer. This is a vague feat at best. When the Champion walks towards a pillar, the background just fades into a celestial body that looks close to the world, which doesn't really support them literally moving them somehow, and there aren't any other statements I could find that support the claim that the Pillars moved them all the way to our world either. This scaling is based on an assumption that isn't really supported by anything shown in Terraria or extra content.

I think some better scaling, although still pretty shaky, would be the Bestiary descriptions of the Celestial Pillars or the tooltip descriptions of the Lunar Fragments (i think the Nebula Fragment's is the least vague).

(ALSO, we should either change the name of the profile to "Celestial Pillars (Terraria)" or change the summary to say Celestial Towers. Not really important, though)

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This would affect every boss from the Wall of Flesh to the Moon Lord, and would also affect the Champion's Hardmode and Post-Cultist keys.

Agree: @Mommyleona, @YmTheSuper, @Lilybitdun, @Damage3245, @TheGreatJedi13

Disagree: @Overlord775

Inconclusive:

 

[Lou_change]

Technically the Solar Eclipse thing includes the fact solar tablets don't work prehardmode unlike other hardmode exclusive summoning items. Is this actually because there is a glitch turned feature that allows access to the temple as soon as you have any hammer that existed prior? Yes.

 

[EtherealCrater]

Shouldn't the WoF "sealing away the spirits of light and dark" just be a Stabilization Feat instead of outright AP?

 

[DuckyMcLucky]

Shouldn't the WoF "sealing away the spirits of light and dark" just be a Stabilization Feat instead of outright AP?

I don't think so? The spirits are never stated to be "sustained" by the WoF in any way. If anything, it would probably be the World that sustains/creates the spirits.

 

[Mommyleona]

I agree
Not to mention why does any of this scale to their physical stats to begin with

 

[DuckyMcLucky]

Technically the Solar Eclipse thing includes the fact solar tablets don't work prehardmode unlike other hardmode exclusive summoning items. Is this actually because there is a glitch turned feature that allows access to the temple as soon as you have any hammer that existed prior? Yes.

Is it a feature? It's pretty obviously a bug/not intended, and if the devs haven't like specifically said that they aren't fixing it or something, then I don't think we can use it.

 

[Lou_change]

Is it a feature?

Is what a feature? Please specify

 

[DuckyMcLucky]

Is what a feature? Please specify

The "glitch turned feature" that you mentioned. Do you have statements that prove that the devs purposefully left it in the game? Otherwise, I don't think it can be used as proof.

 

[Lou_change]

It is hoiks see the first five references

 

[DuckyMcLucky]

It is hoiks see the first five references

I was asking for statements specifically about the Solar Tablet prehardmode bug.

 

[Lou_change]

Here in the fixed section quote: "Fixed Solar Tablet being usable in pre-hardmode, night time or during a solar eclipse under rare circumstances."

 

[DuckyMcLucky]

bump

 

[DuckyMcLucky]

bump

 

[Overlord775]

The Celestial Pillars' "moon moving" feats​

The feat currently used to justify the Pillars' Brown Dwarf level is that they "move the moon" closer. This is a vague feat at best. When the Champion walks towards a pillar, the background just fades into a celestial body that looks close to the world, which doesn't really support them literally moving them somehow, and there aren't any other statements I could find that support the claim that the Pillars moved them all the way to our world either. This scaling is based on an assumption that isn't really supported by anything shown in Terraria or extra content.

I think some better scaling, although still pretty shaky, would be the Bestiary descriptions of the Celestial Pillars or the tooltip descriptions of the Lunar Fragments (i think the Nebula Fragment's is the least vague).

(ALSO, we should either change the name of the profile to "Celestial Pillars (Terraria)" or change the summary to say Celestial Towers. Not really important, though)

The event Is all about the Moon, Lunar cult, pillars sealing a lunar god, there no reason to assume its not the Moon

And like, if there were planetoids just floating around the Terraria world, they would you know... Be visibile outside of the events. But they aren't, they aren't even mentioned anywhere.

The pillars provably do cause a movement to occur, as seen by the fact that you can use Celestial Monoliths (miniaturized celestial pillars) to cause the Moon to come closer to you

This is not even the only thing that lets you mess with the Moon in-game, as Blood Tears, Pumpkin Medalion and Naughty Gift cause a total transmutations of the Moon, while Solar Tablets cause a day long solar eclipse

 

[DuckyMcLucky]

The event Is all about the Moon, Lunar cult, pillars sealing a lunar god, there no reason to assume its not the Moon

It's almost definitely not the moon. The achievement shows 4 separate planets in its image, which obviously wouldn't line up with them all being the same moon.

And like, if there were planetoids just floating around the Terraria world, they would you know... Be visibile outside of the events. But they aren't, they aren't even mentioned anywhere.

...but I thought the entire point of the Pillars is that they bring their respective planet over somehow?

The pillars provably do cause a movement to occur, as seen by the fact that you can use Celestial Monoliths (miniaturized celestial pillars) to cause the Moon to come closer to you

Don't they just do the same thing the Pillars do? (as in they just change the background by fading into a planet being closer somehow) This would just end up being the same thing where it's vague how the planet gets there in the first place. Nothing supports it literally being moved there.

This is not even the only thing that lets you mess with the Moon in-game, as Blood Tears, Pumpkin Medalion and Naughty Gift cause a total transmutations of the Moon, while Solar Tablets cause a day long solar eclipse

It's unclear why these events happen, and none of them are ever stated to be related to the Moon Lord or the Pillars. To assume such a thing would be an assumption that's unsupported by anything stated or shown in game.

Also, as Mommyleona said: how would this scale to AP or durability?

 

[Lou_change]

on this post
Under "Spoiler: Art Improvements and Visual Effects"
Which in turn is under "Spoiler: Journey's End: Changes and Revisions to Pre-Existing Content"
There is the following line.
- The Lunar Invasion planets visible in the sky

 

[Overlord775]

It's almost definitely not the moon. The achievement shows 4 separate planets in its image, which obviously wouldn't line up with them all being the same moon.

You mean the achivedment that says “Defeat the four celestial towers of the moon.” ?
the achivement showing 4 moons is just artistic interpretation, not something you can say is 1 to 1 to what is meant to happen in game, especialy since the 4 event moon can't be seen in the same place in-game

...but I thought the entire point of the Pillars is that they bring their respective planet over somehow?

said litterally no where in game, like actually nowhere. Not even the Celestial Event enemie's description even once describe them as coming from another planet.

the whole event is about the moon

Don't they just do the same thing the Pillars do? (as in they just change the background by fading into a planet being closer somehow) This would just end up being the same thing where it's vague how the planet gets there in the first place. Nothing supports it literally being moved there.

They do, that's the point, the fact that they instantly bring the big orb in the sky on command, anywhere in the world, mean that they aren't just "there". They are activelly bring them to them, moving them around

Ocram's razor, if you see the moon somwhere its not supposed to be, the safed assuption is that it was moved there, instead of assuming never mentioned ability to phase in entire celestial bodies into existance.

It's unclear why these events happen, and none of them are ever stated to be related to the Moon Lord or the Pillars. To assume such a thing would be an assumption that's unsupported by anything stated or shown in game.

Its not "unclear", the items summon it, the player character is directly causing these changes to happen through its own means.

also for the other thing... are you for real? You mean to say that a being from the moon, a being directly connected to the flesh-horror of the crimson by way his brain being directly tied to it, being the cause of the moon causing flesh horrors to appear on the world, is not supported?

Also, as Mommyleona said: how would this scale to AP or durability?

because the fact that the monolyth share the same powers because means that its containment in the fragments, which you also use to craft weapons and armors. Yu are using the same source of power needed to make a feat to shoot people in the face.

on this post
Under "Spoiler: Art Improvements and Visual Effects"
Which in turn is under "Spoiler: Journey's End: Changes and Revisions to Pre-Existing Content"
There is the following line.
- The Lunar Invasion planets visible in the sky

funny thing, that actully disproves what you are trying to say, because the "planets" visible in the sky... are litterally just the moon

https://terraria.wiki.gg/wiki/Moon_phase#Notes

 

[TheBoxofIncidents]

Not knowledgeable in Terraria to contribute scaling wise, so I'll just be following for now.

 

[YmTheSuper]

The fact that there's no reason for these to scale to the physicals of the WOF and the pillars is enough to remove the scaling to them.

Even if the feats were valid and the pillars were making the moon get closer or that the Wall of Flesh was preventing the solar eclipse from happening by some kind of magical/non-physical force you would need more evidence to prove that this scales to physicals.

 

[Lou_change]

.funny thing, that actully disproves what you are trying to say, because the "planets" visible in the sky... are litterally just the moon

https://terraria.wiki.gg/wiki/Moon_phase#Notes

None of those sprites correspond with the planet sprites

 

[DuckyMcLucky]

The fact that there's no reason for these to scale to the physicals of the WOF and the pillars is enough to remove the scaling to them.

Even if the feats were valid and the pillars were making the moon get closer or that the Wall of Flesh was preventing the solar eclipse from happening by some kind of magical/non-physical force you would need more evidence to prove that this scales to physicals.

could I put you down under the Agree section?

 

[YmTheSuper]

could I put you down under the Agree section?

Yeah sure, just keep in mind that I don't have voting rights.

 

[DuckyMcLucky]

bump

 

[DuckyMcLucky]

buuuummppp

 

[Lilybitdun]

Same thoughts as Ym, there was no reason for these to scale to physicals anyways on top of the problems the OP has pointed out

So this looks good

 

[EtherealCrater]

Same thoughts as Ym, there was no reason for these to scale to physicals anyways on top of the problems the OP has pointed out

So this looks good

Putting that Thread Mod role to good use, hell yea.

 

[DuckyMcLucky]

Same thoughts as Ym, there was no reason for these to scale to physicals anyways on top of the problems the OP has pointed out

So this looks good

I'll put you down under Agree

 

[Mommyleona]

The fact that there's no reason for these to scale to the physicals of the WOF and the pillars is enough to remove the scaling to them.

Even if the feats were valid and the pillars were making the moon get closer or that the Wall of Flesh was preventing the solar eclipse from happening by some kind of magical/non-physical force you would need more evidence to prove that this scales to physicals.

Same thoughts as Ym, there was no reason for these to scale to physicals anyways on top of the problems the OP has pointed out

So this looks good

when someone says the same thing as you and gets more likes

 

[Lilybitdun]

when someone says the same thing as you and gets more likes

I hadn't seen your message

Have mercy mommy

 

[Overlord775]

The fact that there's no reason for these to scale to the physicals of the WOF and the pillars is enough to remove the scaling to them.

Even if the feats were valid and the pillars were making the moon get closer or that the Wall of Flesh was preventing the solar eclipse from happening by some kind of magical/non-physical force you would need more evidence to prove that this scales to physicals.

EXCEPT, there is very much reason to assume it does scale to AP, by the way of the Fragments dropped by each pillar

By using the fragments dropped by the pillars, you can replicate the same feat performed by them, and with the very same stuff you do that, you also make weapons and armors.

hell, the Nebula Fragments directly states that they are sources of power "'The power of a galaxy resides within this fragment'

 

[Overlord775]

None of those sprites correspond with the planet sprites

 

[Damage3245]

I agree with the OP.

 

[Overlord775]

the other side just straight ignoring my points, how quaint

 

[Lou_change]

In fact the part about new moon sprites is under "Spoiler: Worldgen and Biomes" under "Spoiler: Journey's End New Content and Additions"
- Added several new moon appearance variations

I prepared in advance by the way.

 

[Overlord775]

In fact the part about new moon sprites is under "Spoiler: Worldgen and Biomes" under "Spoiler: Journey's End New Content and Additions"
- Added several new moon appearance variations

I prepared in advance by the way.

and yet you haven't show any evidence besides a changelog that really could mean any number of things

 

[Lou_change]

They can't be moons and planets I feel like they wouldn't have forgotten halfway through the changelog.

 

[Overlord775]

They can't be moons and planets I feel like they wouldn't have forgotten halfway through the changelog.

Going to need more proof than just "they were named once as planets in a change log" not really reliable stuff there

Change logs aren't meant to be taken as lore gospel, especially when It contradicts whats shown in game

 

[Lou_change]

I think the purple one is missing too more orbiting it. I also don't know if the Vortex background thing currently has a ring actually in game currently

 

[DuckyMcLucky]

EXCEPT, there is very much reason to assume it does scale to AP, by the way of the Fragments dropped by each pillar

I'm going to assume you agree with my points about the Wall as you haven't brought up any points against it.

By using the fragments dropped by the pillars, you can replicate the same feat performed by them, and with the very same stuff you do that, you also make weapons and armors.

This still doesn't talk about the fact that the feat is vague. All it does is vaguely transport some celestial body (moon or planet, doesn't matter too much) relatively close to the World somehow. There aren't any mentions of them physically moving the celestial body literally anywhere, from game statements to developer statements. What this means is that the feat could be anything from teleportation, to spatial manipulation, to even just creation. It's impossible to concretely say what is happening.

As for the armor and weapons: how does that prove anything? It's not like we can scale them to the Moon Lord as his scaling is currently based upon being at least equal to the Pillars.

hell, the Nebula Fragments directly states that they are sources of power "'The power of a galaxy resides within this fragment'"

As said before, I assume you agree with my points about the Wall. If you agree with these points, however, it would mean that there would be a pretty weird discrepancy.

If the Wall of Flesh is downgraded, it would mean that it would be scaled to Skeletron, or 8-A.

Every boss post-WoF from Queen Slime to Duke Fishron has their tier based upon the Wall's moon level scaling. If the Wall is downgraded to 8-A, this means that the bosses pre-Cultist would be much weaker than what is currently shown on their profiles.

Why am I saying all this? If the Champion Post-Golem is 8-A, that would mean that somehow, the gear they get in between Golem and the Cultist would somehow bump them up from 8-A all the way to 3-C (galaxy).

(of course, as the statement is the "power of a galaxy", it would likely only scale to 4-B, or solar system level as shown by this calc)

Do we see the issue here? Even though the rest of the game's drops are similar to the level of the boss beaten, you would have to assume that 8-A enemies/bosses would, for some reason, drop GALAXY LEVEL ITEMS.

Regarding this, it doesn't really matter if the celestial body is the Moon or not, as the feat in itself is vague. (which I assume you know as you started talking about the Nebula fragment's tooltip)

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

I agree with YM.

The feat of moving the moon seems oddly specific to being used on the moon alone or affecting only it. So scaling it to physicals and such wouldn't make sense. I'm still willing to see more of the counter argument but what is presented so far doesn't seems to satisfy it address some of the issues