Kishin Seiken (Demonic Sword) Multiplier

[CatLover313]

The only statement that regular CQC had was "Greatly increased", not really enough justification for a multiplier in of itself as similar statements have been rejected (kinda needs a "Several times" or "many times" attached to it. "Times" is usually the main focus). 100x is disagreed on due to needing more explicit evidence towards it so it was lowered to 3x to match the TUI boost.

Though if I'm also wrong and regular CQC does have a 3x increase, then I like to say I would definitely disagree with that due to "Greatly Increasing" is usually not enough for any multiplier justification. I probably misunderstood the CRT as I was reading it (and commented) and assumed that regular CQC had the "hundred-fold" statement and ignored the "custom-part". Custom CQC should, with the evidence, be the only one with a 3x increase

 

[Aksh_sky]

In the verse, there are only 2 multipliers currently accepted:

A genetic mode called Yamazaki Ultra Instinct (by fans), accepted as x3
An OP military fighting style called CQC, which is accepted as x3

The chain here is just dictating that: if Kishin Seiken is the strongest martial art in an arsenal that includes CQC, then it must be at least x3 or higher.

Feint & Counter and Death Kick are unrelated, their multiplier comes from a statement of how it works

I think Warren's CQC falls in this category

 

[WindyAttack]

Though if I'm also wrong and regular CQC does have a 3x increase, then I like to say I would definitely disagree with that due to "Greatly Increasing" is usually not enough for any multiplier justification. I probably misunderstood the CRT as I was reading it (and commented) and assumed that regular CQC had the "hundred-fold" statement and ignored the "custom-part". Custom CQC should, with the evidence, be the only one with a 3x increase

Warrens CQC is Most Likely a Custom CQC since it was stated by MK to be unique

Also let's say if that were not to be the case even then I'm pretty sure Warren vs Minsik was used as evidence for 3x multiplier and Regular CQC was accepted as 3x multiplier you can open a crt to change it if you want but for now at least it's valid

 

[WindyAttack]

What is the Multiplier scaling chain looking like so far?

It seems the only disagreement is about kishin sekin being a 3x multiplier otherwise OVT/Feint and Counter being a 4x - 5x multiplier has no opposition and most of the people agree with them

 

[CatLover313]

Warrens CQC is Most Likely a Custom CQC since it was stated by MK to be unique

Also let's say if that were not to be the case even then I'm pretty sure Warren vs Minsik was used as evidence for 3x multiplier and Regular CQC was accepted as 3x multiplier you can open a crt to change it if you want but for now at least it's valid

Not saying it isn’t, pretty sure most of Lookism characters have custom CQC. Warren is obvious due to statements. Johan copied MK’s version. MK himself having custom CQC. I just wanted to point out the specifics

 

[WindyAttack]

Not saying it isn’t, pretty sure most of Lookism characters have custom CQC. Warren is obvious due to statements. Johan copied MK’s version. MK himself having custom CQC. I just wanted to point out the specifics

Yea

 

[Powerscalingcat]

I am somewhat skeptical that Gun has mastered all the martial arts to the point of saying he "has mastered the CQC" when it is really implausible in his character, we have never seen him use it nor many other techniques that this should involve. There may be knowledge concerning it, yes, but this does not imply there must be a connection between the CQC multiplier and the Demon Sword.

What I can come to think of is that the Demon Sword has some amplifier of its own from Damage Boost (which if it does, only the profile is so outdated that it doesn’t reflect any of that). And in any case this amplifier can be applied to both Gun and Daniel, who has repeatedly shown he uses it, and also to Johan, who must have copied it.

Now regarding the multiplier from Feint & Counter, I think it makes sense, it should have at least a 2x and because Death Kick and Death Hand are superior to this they should have at least a 3x. Should only be applicable in attack speed and AP.

Normally I am VERY against multiplier scaling but I am actually fine with Jageyon's 2T counter being 2x and his 3T death kick being a 3x SO LONG as its not treated as a constant multiplier to base, since the point of signature moves is that the more complete a fighter is the more times and more freely they can use a signature move without drawbacks to the point of it becoming a normal move rather than a special move(think about the way Gap uses conviction punches like normal punches compared to Jake who uses conviction punches like a special move)

I am fine with a 3x multiplier for death kick so long as its clarified that for the death kick specifically if Jageyon became say 3x stronger in base the death kick wouldn't become an additional 3x stronger but rather Jageyon would be able to use the death kick like a normal move unless its stated/specified that signature moves ALWAYS amps you above your base by a set increase (which I disagree with since the more the story progresses the more we see people using 2 masteries at once including Jageyon without it being treated like a signature move)

I am fine with faint and counter being a consistent 2x mult since the AP is literally just opponent's AP x2 similar to WSRF from OPM

But yeah I disagree with Kishin Seikin being a 3x mult for the same reasons as others have outlined

 

[Powerscalingcat]

I've already justified this via Guns skills being on par with UI Daniel logically if UI Daniel and Gun are on the same level of Skills and it's stated narratively that UI Daniel has perfect experiences meaning all experiences in this context thus building up consistency to them knowing and mastering all martial arts

Also Gun and UI Daniel are both stated multiple times to know all martial arts + having masterd them

Isn't this contradicted by the fact that the first time we see Daniel use CQC is in 1A where he copied it from Warren? Implying he did not have it prior when fighting Gun in hostel? I disagree with this since its entierly build on a lot of vague assumptions going off REALLY old and outdated statments

 

[Powerscalingcat]

My guy... that's called an example.

My guy... KNOWLEDGEABLE ABOUT MARITAL ARTS. THAT'S AN INTELLIGENCE FEAT. Nobody is talking about other types of feat.

And ig ur completely ignoring the consistency models too.

Imma make a syllogism for ur understanding.

P1: Gun is stated to know all kinds of martial arts under the sun

P2: CQC is a martial art.

C1: Therefore, Gun knows CQC.

P3: (authoritatively aproved): CQC is a 3x multipler

P4: Keisen Seiken is stated to be his strongest attack.

C2: Therefore, it's stronger than CQC any is a 3x+ multiplier.

Now consistency for C1.

P5: UI Daniel is stated to have combat abilities the same level as Gun.

P6: Combat ability here implicitly includes techniques and knowledge regarding combat variations or marital arts.

P2(pre established): CQC is a martial arts.

P7: (Objectively true since shown): UI Daniel knows CQC and is shown to use CQC.

C3: Therefore C1 is consistent.

P8: UI Daniel is also stated to know all material arts in a statement similar to Gun's.

P7: (Objectively true since shown + pre established): UI Daniel knows CQC and is shown to use CQC.

P9(from P7): Daniel's knowledge about all martial arts includes CQC.

C4: Therefore Gun's knowledge about all martial arts also includes CQC and adds another layer of consistency for C1.

Small nitpick but combat abbility doesn't mean they have the exact same techiques and knowledge, since a boxer and a taekwondo fighter can have the same combat abbility depsite both having different martial arts, the same combat abbility only tells us how skilled they are with their moveset it doesn't tell us what their actual moveset is

To prove my point in 1A one of the crewheads states that basement Hulk's combat abbility/battle prowess is immeasurable and he gets compared to Tom Lee multiple times, does that mean basement hulk knows AI and CQC?

 

[Powerscalingcat]

As if random jargons are proving your unsubstantial arguments either.

While I am not a mod, friendly reminder to keep things civil, regardless of whether you are right or wrong or whether you agree with Pyro, as a third party imo you are coming off as very condescending towards Pyro

I'm not ignoring anything, I've attended to all and it's your burden to justify how this example doesn't prove similarity.

I LITERALLY just proved it. I don't need to. Can you not track or something? Why am i obliged to do so when I've already provided 3 layers of consistent evidence. Just track the syllogism properly.

Should have? My premise has nothing to do with the others, i never posited such possibilities of ALL martial arts to be in Gun's arsenal, I've specifically made the syllogism for CQC.

 

[WindyAttack]

Isn't this contradicted by the fact that the first time we see Daniel use CQC is in 1A where he copied it from Warren? Implying he did not have it prior when fighting Gun in hostel? I disagree with this since its entierly build on a lot of vague assumptions going off REALLY old and outdated statments

Straight up irrelevant and i wouldn't bother debating this further since I've already established another meta explaining why kishin sekkin is above CQC

 

[WindyAttack]

Normally I am VERY against multiplier scaling but I am actually fine with Jageyon's 2T counter being 2x and his 3T death kick being a 3x SO LONG as its not treated as a constant multiplier to base, since the point of signature moves is that the more complete a fighter is the more times and more freely they can use a signature move without drawbacks to the point of it becoming a normal move rather than a special move(think about the way Gap uses conviction punches like normal punches compared to Jake who uses conviction punches like a special move)

I am fine with a 3x multiplier for death kick so long as its clarified that for the death kick specifically if Jageyon became say 3x stronger in base the death kick wouldn't become an additional 3x stronger but rather Jageyon would be able to use the death kick like a normal move unless its stated/specified that signature moves ALWAYS amps you above your base by a set increase (which I disagree with since the more the story progresses the more we see people using 2 masteries at once including Jageyon without it being treated like a signature move)

I am fine with faint and counter being a consistent 2x mult since the AP is literally just opponent's AP x2 similar to WSRF from OPM

But yeah I disagree with Kishin Seikin being a 3x mult for the same reasons as others have outlined

Do you know why this is wrong? Because most of your points are a non sequiter

And this is irrelevant as OVT is stated to multiply the power by many times and that means at least 4 times and even several that is lower then many is still 3 times multiplier so in no way OVT is just 2x (since it was straight up stated that it can one shot a revenge amped Jaeg)

 

[Powerscalingcat]

As I said, that's a real martial art that exists in the real world, yet Gun explicitly stated that he wasn't familiar with it.

Me: "There is no way that's a real martial art technique-"
one Google search later
"what the acactual ****?"
TIL that Gun, a cannocially Japanese man trained in Japanese style karate has never heard of a karate chop before LMAO

I've already read it, which is why I gave my reasoning.

I agree with the multiplier for Feint and Counter, but I'm neutral on Death Kick because we don't know how much stronger Death Kick is than Feint and Counter. We do know that Death Kick > Feint and Counter, but the difference could be less than a 1× increase. I've made CRTs involving multiplier scaling before, and the staff told me that unless the increase is explicitly quantified, it should be treated as at least the lower value.

So it should be:

Feint and Counter: ×4
Death Kick: at least ×4

 

[Powerscalingcat]

Also something i found intresting is that Gun asked Daniel to use HIS strongest attack means the strongest attack DANIEL knows. Daniel has seen ppl use CQC before aswell so obviously Daniel knows CQC because he can copy just by looking meanwhile he still used demon sword for his strongest attack which did dealt good damage to Paecheon so ts should also be consistent.

I think we're just arguing in the wrong direction.

We literally saw in HFBD that CQC is NOT copyable, Johan had to first fight MK for a bit and MK realised Johan was teaching himself CQC in real time, other copy cats that use CQC, Johan had to teach Haru how to use CQC by showing them all the stances one at a time and having them copy it

Daniel CAN learn CQC but he would need someone to actually teach it to him step by step

 

[Powerscalingcat]

Do you know why this is wrong? Because most of your points are a non sequiter

And this is irrelevant as OVT is stated to multiply the power by many times and that means at least 4 times and even several that is lower then many is still 3 times multiplier so in no way OVT is just 2x (since it was straight up stated that it can one shot a revenge amped Jaeg)

I am not here to argue, just giving my take you can put me in agree for OVT being a 2x and death hand/kick being a 3x and disagree for everything else, I've read the entire thread all ready so we cam just agree to disagree

 

[Aksh_sky]

Normally I am VERY against multiplier scaling but I am actually fine with Jageyon's 2T counter being 2x and his 3T death kick being a 3x SO LONG

Omg, 'many' literally means more than 2, us it too hard to understand for ppl? It at minimum could be assumed as 4x and it's stated by a mod.

 

[WindyAttack]

I am not here to argue, just giving my take you can put me in agree for OVT being a 2x and death hand/kick being a 3x and disagree for everything else, I've read the entire thread all ready so we cam just agree to disagree

And that is straight up wrong "Many" Is confirmed by Mods to be at least 4 times anything lower isn't even possible

 

[WindyAttack]

We literally saw in HFBD that CQC is NOT copyable, Johan had to first fight MK for a bit and MK realised Johan was teaching himself CQC in real time, other copy cats that use CQC, Johan had to teach Haru how to use CQC by showing them all the stances one at a time and having them copy it

Daniel CAN learn CQC but he would need someone to actually teach it to him step by step

Daniel has copy ability on par with Johan and Johan himself masterd CQC in a single fight against MK under minutes logically Daniel could do the same thing (it would be easier for him since Warren is inferior to MK) and Yet he still calls Kishin sekin his strongest attack

No offense but i sense bad faith from your msgs

 

[Aksh_sky]

Isn't this contradicted by the fact that the first time we see Daniel use CQC is in 1A where he copied it from Warren? Implying he did not have it prior when fighting Gun in hostel? I disagree with this since its entierly build on a lot of vague assumptions going off REALLY old and outdated statments

No, Warren's CQC is yellow in colour which is Jet Kune Do CQC or a custom CQC like Taiki, meanwhile Daniel used a normal red one. He already has knowledge of attacks that was never even shown like Kitae's punch or others.

Me: "There is no way that's a real martial art technique-"
one Google search later
"what the acactual ****?"
TIL that Gun, a cannocially Japanese man trained in Japanese style karate has never heard of a karate chop before LMAO

Isn't the same martial art that Jichang uses. Those are hand blades and it's exclusive to Jichang, Jihan and Jibyeon. Paecheon also used hand blades but it's different style.

We literally saw in HFBD that CQC is NOT copyable, Johan had to first fight MK for a bit and MK realised Johan was teaching himself CQC in real time, other copy cats that use CQC, Johan had to teach Haru how to use CQC by showing them all the stances one at a time and having them copy it

Yea sure... Isn't copyable.

MK never taught CQC to Johan and Haru literally used copy card to use CQC.

 

[Aksh_sky]

No, Warren's CQC is yellow in colour which is Jet Kune Do CQC or a custom CQC like Taiki, meanwhile Daniel used a normal red one. He already has knowledge of attacks that was never even shown like Kitae's punch or others

Nvm he used Warren's CQC nly, but lwk it doens't matter. Johan still did copy his CQC and so can Lil Daniel.

He also clearly saw CQC in front of him. So ofc he can copy.

 

[Powerscalingcat]

No, Warren's CQC is yellow in colour which is Jet Kune Do CQC or a custom CQC like Taiki, meanwhile Daniel used a normal red one. He already has knowledge of attacks that was never even shown like Kitae's punch or others.

No offense but I think you might be slightly color blind

Base CQC (military CQC) is orange, Warren's jeet kune do CQC is red

Isn't the same martial art that Jichang uses. Those are hand blades and it's exclusive to Jichang, Jihan and Jibyeon. Paecheon also used hand blades but it's different style.

Yea sure... Isn't copyable.

MK never taught CQC to Johan and Haru literally used copy card to use CQC.

AHEM

Screenshot 20260708 132436 Chrome — Postimages

postimg.cc

We get this panel and THEN we are shown Haru using CQC

Also that is NOT what I said do NOT put words into my mouth, I SAID and I quote 'MK realised that Johan was teaching himself CQC'

Go reread their fight in HFBD, Johan FAILED the first time he tried to copy CQC, which MK then explained that CQC is not something that can be copied, it needs to be taught then as MK is fighting Johan, MK realised Johan was copying his stances and that Johan was teaching himself CQC and then against Yuseong we saw that Johan succeded in learning CQC (we get an inner monologue from Johan about being your own teacher and your own student)

Anyhow let's not clutter the thread any further I already made it very clear what my stance is and that we should agree to disagree

 

[Aksh_sky]

No offense but I think you might be slightly color blind

Base CQC (military CQC) is orange, Warren's jeet kune do CQC is red

I did corrected myself.

We get this panel and THEN we are shown Haru using CQC

Ye so? You said CQC isn't copyable? Haru used CQC from the copy card, Johan also said he'll just 'show' her CQC, he never said he'll teach her. So I don't see anything different you said.

Go reread their fight in HFBD, Johan FAILED the first time he tried to copy CQC, which MK then explained that CQC is not something that can be copied, it needs to be taught then as MK is fighting Johan, MK realised Johan was copying his stances and that Johan was teaching himself CQC and then against Yuseong we saw that Johan succeded in learning CQC (we get an inner monologue from Johan about being your own teacher and your own student)

Ye i reread and MK just said that in order to copy CQC, you need to copy all it's stances and Johan DID copied it's stances and thus also copied CQC. Also there's no evidence that MK has met competent copy users like Johan or Daniel before so that already disproves the whole thing. + MK was also shocked seeing Johan copy, and also that's MK's CQC which is probably the most perfect CQC after matbe Woocheol Nam so the fact that Johan ALMOST succeeded in the first try by just seeing the attack while having weak eyesight already proves that it's VERY copyable... especially Warren's CQC.

 

[Powerscalingcat]

I did corrected myself.

Ye so? You said CQC isn't copyable? Haru used CQC from the copy card, Johan also said he'll just 'show' her CQC, he never said he'll teach her. So I don't see anything different you said.

I'd imagine he showed Haru all the stances the same way he learned CQC

Ye i reread and MK just said that in order to copy CQC, you need to copy all it's stances and Johan DID copied it's stances and thus also copied CQC. Also there's no evidence that MK has met competent copy users like Johan or Daniel before so that already disproves the whole thing. + MK was also shocked seeing Johan copy, and also that's MK's CQC which is probably the most perfect CQC after matbe Woocheol Nam so the fact that Johan ALMOST succeeded in the first try by just seeing the attack while having weak eyesight already proves that it's VERY copyable... especially Warren's CQC.

I think we both agree but we are misunderstanding each other, sorry for the confusion my point was that it can't be copied instantly not that copying it is impossible CQC is I believe one of the only things we have seen Johan fail to copy instantly, Johan needed to copy the individual stances first and THEN fully copy it, I doubt Haru copied it perfectly off rip as that would imply that even with bad sight accounted for that Haru is a better copy user than Johan which they are not lol

Also again we should probably just agree to disagree so we don't clutter the thread

 

[WindyAttack]

I'd imagine he showed Haru all the stances the same way he learned CQC

I think we both agree but we are misunderstanding each other, sorry for the confusion my point was that it can't be copied instantly not that copying it is impossible CQC is I believe one of the only things we have seen Johan fail to copy instantly, Johan needed to copy the individual stances first and THEN fully copy it, I doubt Haru copied it perfectly off rip as that would imply that even with bad sight accounted for that Haru is a better copy user than Johan which they are not lol

Also again we should probably just agree to disagree so we don't clutter the thread

You're arguing that Johan couldn't copy CQC instantly but only after seeing some of Manager Kim's stances. If that's your position, then your argument leads to a simple syllogism:

Major premise: Anyone who has seen the necessary CQC stances can copy CQC.
Minor premise: Daniel saw Warren use those CQC stances against Minsik and then saw them again during 1A.
Conclusion: Therefore, Daniel should already be able to copy CQC.

You're also presupposing that a healthy Johan couldn't copy CQC instantly without any evidence to support that. Haru is direct evidence against that claim. The first time Haru saw CQC, they copied it immediately. Johan even stated that he would only show Haru CQC, not teach it. Haru's Copy card explicitly says that Copy can instantly replicate any skill after seeing it once, which should include CQC.

On top of that, when Johan copied Manager Kim's CQC, it had already been established that he was nearly blind. Since Copy depends on properly seeing the technique, his impaired vision would naturally affect his ability to replicate it perfectly. Not to mention, Manager Kim's CQC is far more advanced than Warren's, making it an even more difficult technique to copy under those conditions.

 

[WindyAttack]

I did corrected myself.

Ye so? You said CQC isn't copyable? Haru used CQC from the copy card, Johan also said he'll just 'show' her CQC, he never said he'll teach her. So I don't see anything different you said.


Ye i reread and MK just said that in order to copy CQC, you need to copy all it's stances and Johan DID copied it's stances and thus also copied CQC. Also there's no evidence that MK has met competent copy users like Johan or Daniel before so that already disproves the whole thing. + MK was also shocked seeing Johan copy, and also that's MK's CQC which is probably the most perfect CQC after matbe Woocheol Nam so the fact that Johan ALMOST succeeded in the first try by just seeing the attack while having weak eyesight already proves that it's VERY copyable... especially Warren's CQC.

I'd very honest it seems he's blatantly stubborn guy who clearly doesn't understands proper logic or simply has bad faith against this crt. it would be best to ignore such people

 

[Kakistan]

I'd imagine he showed Haru all the stances the same way he learned CQC

I think we both agree but we are misunderstanding each other, sorry for the confusion my point was that it can't be copied instantly not that copying it is impossible CQC is I believe one of the only things we have seen Johan fail to copy instantly, Johan needed to copy the individual stances first and THEN fully copy it, I doubt Haru copied it perfectly off rip as that would imply that even with bad sight accounted for that Haru is a better copy user than Johan which they are not lol

Also again we should probably just agree to disagree so we don't clutter the thread

If you're talking about "off-rip", we do see that Haru instantly managed to do it the moment he awakened Copy. He made it clear it was impossible to perform from what Johan showed him, but the Copy card made it possible to do so on the first-time.

Though, I wouldn't take Haru as the standard copy user. That guy upgraded Johan's 3-ring CQC (we see Johan still has 3 rings in HFG, 511) to 4-rings & even copied aura.

Also, are you not the one who said: "Isn't this contradicted by the fact that the first time we see Daniel use CQC is in 1A where he copied it from Warren?"
UI Daniel had only seen him use it once and still performed it without an issue, which pretty much contradicts what you're going with rn.

But anyways, considering the fact Daniel DID see Warren fully use CQC in 2A, then yeah I'm more convinced that at least some form of CQC is in his arsenal. In which case, you can change me to Agree on all @WindyAttack

 

[Powerscalingcat]

I'd very honest it seems he's blatantly stubborn guy who clearly doesn't understands proper logic or simply has bad faith against this crt. it would be best to ignore such people

Dawg the only here being bad faith is YOU, I made it very clear that its better for us to agree to disagree, I already clarified my stance on what I agree and disagree with, and that I am not open to debate, I forgot to take my meds today and I am not feeling well so I don't have the energy for it

The whole point of a CRT is that people get to weigh in their opinions and you have to tally them up REGARDLESS of how YOU personally feel about it (granted only the mods ones matter) if I actually wanted to argue in bad faith I would just keep arguing instead of conceding and telling you we should agree to disagree, because the way a CRT works the mods usually won't weigh in until debate has concluded with either people agreeing or in this case agreeing to disagree, so I am literally doing you a favor by refusing to debate since that means the CRT will get evaluated faster and the mods will have less to read as the thread will be less cluttered, all these pointless debates like 'can Johan instantly copy CQC?' are just derailing from the original premise, not to mention I try my best to concede as much as possible and somehow I STILL end up being bad faith and stubborn

I've already agree with a big part of the premise for this CRT (multipliers for 2T counter and 3T death hand/kick) just a lower multiplier, which is fine as multiple people here have different takes on how high/low the multiplier is or if it even exists

I noticed on CGM thread that was arguing that some calcs were calc'd wrong you accused the person who made the thread of being a fan of another verse and trying to downscale lookism

While your behavior isn't inherently breaking any rules of the forum I will still call it out for being tribalistic as I either have to agree with you or if I don't I am labeled as stubborn, bad faith and incapable of understanding logic which is incredibly accustory and aggressive and all because I have a different take compared to yours. I am allowed to disagree with your take and voice my opinion on it regardless of how wrong you think it is, as YOU aren't the one who gets to decide what is and isn't true the admins do, you can simply argue in favor of it, convincing me to have same postion as you literally achives nothing dawg

Either way as I am not feeling well I will repeat myself one final time as I have already said so twice, I have made my postion clear on what I agree and disagree with and that's final, I've already clarified that I do not feel well today and I am not in the mood to debate and this conversation is frankly starting to make me feel uncomfortable, I apologize if this comes off as rude I do not intend for it to come off as rude but I'll have to ask you to please just tally me on the CRT and to leave me alone, while I try to be as objective as I can be when I power scale I mainly do it as a form of stress relief/comfort, I try my best to be nice to everyone and to not come off as bad faith or stubborn, but this is unrionically staring to make me feel uncomfortable so I'd like to just end the conversation as a whole, peace

 

[WindyAttack]

Dawg the only here being bad faith is YOU, I made it very clear that its better for us to agree to disagree, I already clarified my stance on what I agree and disagree with, and that I am not open to debate, I forgot to take my meds today and I am not feeling well so I don't have the energy for it

The whole point of a CRT is that people get to weigh in their opinions and you have to tally them up REGARDLESS of how YOU personally feel about it (granted only the mods ones matter) if I actually wanted to argue in bad faith I would just keep arguing instead of conceding and telling you we should agree to disagree, because the way a CRT works the mods usually won't weigh in until debate has concluded with either people agreeing or in this case agreeing to disagree, so I am literally doing you a favor by refusing to debate since that means the CRT will get evaluated faster and the mods will have less to read as the thread will be less cluttered, all these pointless debates like 'can Johan instantly copy CQC?' are just derailing from the original premise, not to mention I try my best to concede as much as possible and somehow I STILL end up being bad faith and stubborn

I've already agree with a big part of the premise for this CRT (multipliers for 2T counter and 3T death hand/kick) just a lower multiplier, which is fine as multiple people here have different takes on how high/low the multiplier is or if it even exists

I noticed on CGM thread that was arguing that some calcs were calc'd wrong you accused the person who made the thread of being a fan of another verse and trying to downscale lookism

While your behavior isn't inherently breaking any rules of the forum I will still call it out for being tribalistic as I either have to agree with you or if I don't I am labeled as stubborn, bad faith and incapable of understanding logic which is incredibly accustory and aggressive and all because I have a different take compared to yours. I am allowed to disagree with your take and voice my opinion on it regardless of how wrong you think it is, as YOU aren't the one who gets to decide what is and isn't true the admins do, you can simply argue in favor of it, convincing me to have same postion as you literally achives nothing dawg

Either way as I am not feeling well I will repeat myself one final time as I have already said so twice, I have made my postion clear on what I agree and disagree with and that's final, I've already clarified that I do not feel well today and I am not in the mood to debate and this conversation is frankly starting to make me feel uncomfortable, I apologize if this comes off as rude I do not intend for it to come off as rude but I'll have to ask you to please just tally me on the CRT and to leave me alone, while I try to be as objective as I can be when I power scale I mainly do it as a form of stress relief/comfort, I try my best to be nice to everyone and to not come off as bad faith or stubborn, but this is unrionically staring to make me feel uncomfortable so I'd like to just end the conversation as a whole, peace

That would have been the case if only if your point was even semi consistent for example take aksh he dis agrees with Reality Quest Upscales and yet still gives a solid and proper counter against them thus he's not a bad faith guy

Someone who's a bad faith individual can be identified by what they are like for example quite literally the lowest value that "many" Can have is 4 and is confirmed by mods if you have a opinion against it then you are simply invalid regardless of how you feel since it doesn't matters against Mods takes

 

[WindyAttack]

If you're talking about "off-rip", we do see that Haru instantly managed to do it the moment he awakened Copy. He made it clear it was impossible to perform from what Johan showed him, but the Copy card made it possible to do so on the first-time.

Though, I wouldn't take Haru as the standard copy user. That guy upgraded Johan's 3-ring CQC (we see Johan still has 3 rings in HFG, 511) to 4-rings & even copied aura.

Also, are you not the one who said: "Isn't this contradicted by the fact that the first time we see Daniel use CQC is in 1A where he copied it from Warren?"
UI Daniel had only seen him use it once and still performed it without an issue, which pretty much contradicts what you're going with rn.

But anyways, considering the fact Daniel DID see Warren fully use CQC in 2A, then yeah I'm more convinced that at least some form of CQC is in his arsenal. In which case, you can change me to Agree on all @WindyAttack

Done

 

[Powerscalingcat]

If you're talking about "off-rip", we do see that Haru instantly managed to do it the moment he awakened Copy. He made it clear it was impossible to perform from what Johan showed him, but the Copy card made it possible to do so on the first-time.

Though, I wouldn't take Haru as the standard copy user. That guy upgraded Johan's 3-ring CQC (we see Johan still has 3 rings in HFG, 511) to 4-rings & even copied aura.

Also, are you not the one who said: "Isn't this contradicted by the fact that the first time we see Daniel use CQC is in 1A where he copied it from Warren?"
UI Daniel had only seen him use it once and still performed it without an issue, which pretty much contradicts what you're going with rn.

To be fair UI Daniel is a perfect copy user and absolute beast

But anyways, considering the fact Daniel DID see Warren fully use CQC in 2A, then yeah I'm more convinced that at least some form of CQC is in his arsenal. In which case, you can change me to Agree on all @WindyAttack

Hmm fair enough though I find it weird that Daniel has never used CQC even though he has it in his arsenal supposedly? This is not an argument from sillence I am questioning the logic of why Daniel would not use a very OP techique that is in his arsenal at least for Gun he has in character reasons for not using CQC if he has it but Daniel so much if I am not mistaken

 

[Powerscalingcat]

That would have been the case if only if your point was even semi consistent for example take aksh he dis agrees with Reality Quest Upscales and yet still gives a solid and proper counter against them thus he's not a bad faith guy

Someone who's a bad faith individual can be identified by what they are like for example quite literally the lowest value that "many" Can have is 4 and is confirmed by mods if you have a opinion against it then you are simply invalid regardless of how you feel since it doesn't matters against Mods takes

I literally told you that my take doesn't matter so trying to 'debatebro' me is literally pointless, how is it bad faith? I aknoledged that the mod takes matter more anyway, if the mods say 4x and 5x is fine then ok that's that, the whole point of the disagree option during a CRT is so that people can disagree even if that goes against mods consesus, also wiki rules are not eternal and they change all the time, wouldn't that be an appeal to authority? Especially since whether or not our standards apply is reviewed on a case by case basis to determine how accurate that is

May I remind you that MK has not 1 but TWO statments for CQC having a 100x mult that were rejected on vswiki by admins DESPITE our rules on multipliers because they were deemed unrealistic? The fact that the statment many is used and how high you can interpret said statment isn't as important as said statment being consistent especially since 3x gap is still enough to fodderize an opponent so its not as simple and cut and dry as you present it and there is a good reason most scalers tend to be conservative with multipliers

Dude there are MANY things with lookism scaling that I disagree with but I don't voice my complaints because that's how vswiki does its scaling and what mods and the community decided so I am not gonna try to force my take on them

So no, you are quite literally trying to forcefully paint me as bad faith and stubborn when I have repeatedly told you that I don't want to debate you, that my take does NOT matter and that this comsversation and talking to YOU is starting to make me feel uncomfortable and politely asked you to tally me up and leave me be, if this keeps escalating I will have to talk to an administrator about it, I don't mind debates but if the person I am talking to refuses to even consider the possibility of leveling with me and keeps on insisting on villanizing me because I don't blindly agree with them, then I won't tolerate it

 

[WindyAttack]

I literally told you that my take doesn't matter so trying to 'debatebro' me is literally pointless, how is it bad faith? I aknoledged that the mod takes matter more anyway, if the mods say 4x and 5x is fine then ok that's that, the whole point of the disagree option during a CRT is so that people can disagree even if that goes against mods consesus, also wiki rules are not eternal and they change all the time, wouldn't that be an appeal to authority? Especially since whether or not our standards apply is reviewed on a case by case basis to determine how accurate that is

May I remind you that MK has not 1 but TWO statments for CQC having a 100x mult that were rejected on vswiki by admins DESPITE our rules on multipliers because they were deemed unrealistic? The fact that the statment many is used and how high you can interpret said statment isn't as important as said statment being consistent especially since 3x gap is still enough to fodderize an opponent so its not as simple and cut and dry as you present it and there is a good reason most scalers tend to be conservative with multipliers

Dude there are MANY things with lookism scaling that I disagree with but I don't voice my complaints because that's how vswiki does its scaling and what mods and the community decided so I am not gonna try to force my take on them

So no, you are quite literally trying to forcefully paint me as bad faith and stubborn when I have repeatedly told you that I don't want to debate you, that my take does NOT matter and that this comsversation and talking to YOU is starting to make me feel uncomfortable and politely asked you to tally me up and leave me be, if this keeps escalating I will have to talk to an administrator about it, I don't mind debates but if the person I am talking to refuses to even consider the possibility of leveling with me and keeps on insisting on villanizing me because I don't blindly agree with them, then I won't tolerate it

It's interesting how you went from playing the victim to accusing someone of acting in bad faith, and that seems to contradict your own beliefs.

Also, no one is forcing you to respond. You can respectfully unfollow the thread, stop replying, or simply discuss the topic instead of getting upset when someone points out what they perceive as your bad faith regarding Lookism.

And honestly, you can't do anything to me, even if you contact the admins, because I'm not breaking any rules. I'm simply pointing out what I see as bad faith, and I think you're the one with the issue here. You're arguing that "many" means fewer than three or four, even though every major dictionary, including Oxford, disagrees with you. On top of that, the staff here also agree with my interpretation, so your opinion doesn't carry much weight in this context.

And while you're free to express your thoughts, everything has to follow the proper procedures. If you want your argument to have any standing, you'll need to start a new thread proposing a redefinition of the word "many" on VSBW. Until then, your interpretation isn't the accepted one. Once that's done, we can revisit this discussion.

And finally, I don't appreciate people who play the victim. So please don't engage with me any further, because I can't promise to remain civil. I don't want to be rude, but that's simply the reality.

 

[WindyAttack]

To be fair UI Daniel is a perfect copy user and absolute beast

Hmm fair enough though I find it weird that Daniel has never used CQC even though he has it in his arsenal supposedly? This is not an argument from sillence I am questioning the logic of why Daniel would not use a very OP techique that is in his arsenal at least for Gun he has in character reasons for not using CQC if he has it but Daniel so much if I am not mistaken

Daniel Had Kishin Sekin from HFBD isn't it weird he never used it

 

[Kakistan]

Kishin Seiken definitely seems like it was added after 1A. When we see Daniel use his underdog strategy and go all-out against UI Daniel in 1A, there's no Kishin Seiken in sight. Only copies of James, Gun (specifically not KS), Taesoo & Jichang.

A retroactive addition of KS being the strongest move in his arsenal would put it above CQC, I suppose.

 

[Pyro9278]

Daniel didn't use Kishin Seiken against Jichang and he didn't even flinch?

 

[Kakistan]

Daniel didn't use Kishin Seiken against Jichang and he didn't even flinch?

???

 

[Pyro9278]

???

Chapter 436

 

[Kakistan]

Chapter 436

Jesus christ, that actually looks identical. Fair enough.

However, that's likely him holding back his base strength (like he always starts with), as we see his James Copy hitting harder later on. Yet we know that the strongest attack he can output is Kishin Seiken at full power.

I'm not saying the following is true, BUUUT if this CRT goes through then someone might be able to apply a multiplier to Heat Mode.

 

[WindyAttack]

Daniel didn't use Kishin Seiken against Jichang and he didn't even flinch?

Kishin sekin didn't even exist back then

Using this same logic you must think Samuel ~ Jinyoung or Charles Choi went full power against jichang

Also Jichang was far far stronger then Daniel

 

[WindyAttack]

Bump