The Revenant Marvel Comics Discussion Thread

[PromptedElephant641]

It should be noted that all she acomplished against Dominions is stings them a bit, and even that she claims is only because of the nature of the Overspace. She doesn't harm them in any significant way.

Even poking a High-1A being is pretty much a High-1A feat, so harming them in any capacity is a massive outlier. This is a rare L moment for Al Ewing’s cosmic writing.

 

[ObberGobb]

Even poking a High-1A being is pretty much a High-1A feat, so harming them in any capacity is a massive outlier. This is a rare L moment for Al Ewing’s cosmic writing.

Blue Marvel fought White Phoenix in the White Hot Room, so I think it's a case like that. Like how Dominions are weaker when they lower into the Multiverse, perhaps Storm rises to their level when in their realm.

 

[ProfectusInfinity]

That’s not nearly enough to justify a High-1A feat. While it does provide adequate explanation for the other stuff on her 1A section of her profile, the Dominion feat is incomprehensibly beyond anything she can do or draw upon and as such should be removed for being an outlier.

Sure but that doesn't make it not an outlier, since she is never treated as being a character stronger than Beyonders.

She is also stated to be a superior god to the Adversary during a Black Panther run where the Adversary was superior to the Orisha (West African Gods), a subset of the Ennead that includes beings like Thoth, a son of Demiurge and Gaea (much like Atum) and primordial rival of the Elder God Set who's fought him in close combat for eons, and Bast, who has chain-scaling to Atum. Keep in mind that the Elder Gods were broadly depicted in Immortal Thor as a greater threat than Nyx, who is accepted as White Hot Room level.

She was Eternity's Herald, so definitely is weaker than him.

I admittedly didn't pay too much attention to Storm, but wasn't she disrespecting he and Infinity's authority?

And iirc, Storm's writer said that the story where that happened was universal in scope. We can upgrade a character to High 1-A based on one feat, that's insane.

3 feats, actually.

Being superior to the Adversary.

Harming the Dominions.

Matching the oppositional entities of the Phoenix Force in the Dark Cold Room.

Also, didn't that same author say that universal and multiversal abstracts are interchangeable?

As already stated, she says she is only able to harm them due to the nature of the realm and that Magneto could have done the same.

and even that she claims is only because of the nature of the Overspace.

Nope, she says she hopes her power is symbolic enough to work on them. She says this because right before appearing before the Dominions, she loses the symbolic power she held in the Well Beyond Worlds, where she had various dialogue with characters like Tarn and Ashake about how she comprehends the strength of symbols in magic and consequently the nature of the Well Beyond Worlds, whereas the Dominions were something she couldn't fathom.

When Storm ponders if Magneto went through the same thing as her, she's talking about how unnerved she felt when the Dominions performed information analysis on her. She wonders this because the Dominions told her that they performed the same information analysis on Magneto and tossed him aside.

Blue Marvel fought White Phoenix in the White Hot Room, so I think it's a case like that. Like how Dominions are weaker when they lower into the Multiverse, perhaps Storm rises to their level when in their realm.

White Phoenix Taaia was unscathed from his attack, and immediately vanished and ignored him because her various multi-location manifestations throughout the White Hot Room in places like a tundra, construction site in outer space, and white page represented an internal struggle where the Phoenix was debating whether to let the Defenders pass, or outright burn into nothingness.

 

[MrKerf]

Nope, she says she hopes her power is symbolic enough to work on them. She says this because right before appearing before the Dominions, she loses the symbolic power she held in the Well Beyond Worlds, where she had various dialogue with characters like Tarn and Ashake about how she comprehends the strength of symbols in magic and consequently the nature of the Well Beyond Worlds, whereas the Dominions were something she couldn't fathom.

When Storm ponders if Magneto went through the same thing as her, she's talking about how unnerved she felt when the Dominions performed information analysis on her. She wonders this because the Dominions told her that they performed the same information analysis on Magneto and tossed him aside.

I think there's more of an implication that her enitre journey was governed by magic, as nothing in the scan suggests that she lost that symbolic power, if anything. Similarly, it is heavily implied that she beats the Dark Cold Squad not with power specifically, but by standing as life against darkness.
And she does ponder if Magneto attempted to harness this symbolic power to fight back.

3 feats, actually.

Being superior to the Adversary.

Harming the Dominions.

Matching the oppositional entities of the Phoenix Force in the Dark Cold Room.

Also, didn't that same author say that universal and multiversal abstracts are interchangeable?

No, actually. He says that he considers Eternity to be a hive-mind, so every universal Eternity know 616 Storm, for example.

Now, both Dominions and Dark Cold Squad are questionable feats.

One of the Adversary scans is missing, but from the context she doesn't have that power, but momentarily gains it through Wakanda's faith. The greater god is purely hyperbolic here.

So... I'd put it as 0 feats.

White Phoenix Taaia was unscathed from his attack, and immediately vanished and ignored him because her various multi-location manifestations throughout the White Hot Room in places like a tundra, construction site in outer space, and white page represented an internal struggle where the Phoenix was debating whether to let the Defenders pass, or outright burn into nothingness.

I don't have much to comment on that, since there's no way your argument is Blue Marvel is unharmed by the Phoenix in the WHR, without any external amps. Though if anything, I'd put it as another outlier.

 

[ObberGobb]

She is also stated to be a superior god to the Adversary during a Black Panther run where the Adversary was superior to the Orisha (West African Gods), a subset of the Ennead that includes beings like Thoth, a son of Demiurge and Gaea (much like Atum)

Ennead also includes Seth, who is weaker than Odin, Thor, and Loki. The Egyptian Pantheon isn't that much stronger than the Norse one. Atum is stronger in his Elder God form, but in his "lower" form, he is basically just Skyfather level. Odin impersonated him for a while.

Also, on Adversary's profile we accept him as being comparable to Mephisto and such. If he's not that should probably be fixed

 

[AcidSilver]

If Storm could unironically defeat multiple Dominions then she could’ve beaten Enigma by herself instead of it needing an amped version of the Phoenix to trap him in a deathloop. Storm being that strong just goes completely against every comic’s plot where she’s involved in.

 

[PromptedElephant641]

Additionally, the Elder Gods are the least consistent and coherent group of entities in the entire Marvel cosmology. They very in power MASSIVELY. Nyx is not even an Elder God but a vastly greater being. The oppositional entities of the Cold Dark Room were just beings that were summoned to fight Storm in order to test her, they are not the primary residents nor do they scale to the Cold Dark Room in any capacity. It is also unknown if the entities depicted in The Cold Dark Room are even the original versions of these characters at their full power so it is not possible to draw any conclusions from this one way or the other. It is likely all metaphorical anyway as Storm's fight between these entities appears to Magneto and Shadow King as pieces on a chess board. In all reality, it is likely that the entire story is mostly metaphorical in nature. In their true forms, The Phoenix Force is the fire and light, the Tiger God is its eternal rival kept away by the light, and Nyx is the darkness that encompasses both. There is nothing in Immortal Thor that would put the Elder Gods even close to Nyx, as the darkness encompassing the phoenix force and tiger god, in power and importance in the Cosmic hierarchy, nor do Elder Gods scale to Nyx in any way shape or form. Nyx has her usual in universe forms, and in these forms she is a part of many pantheons including the Greek, where she gained the name Nyx, and in the Norse where she is referred to as Nott. These appearances are obviously not her true entirety, and scaling to them only grants one superiority to Skyfather tier characters such as Zeus, Odin, and Thor.

Anyways, there really is not much else to be said here. Storm breathing in the presence of a Dominion is an outlier, let alone damaging 8 at the same time .

While we are on the topic of The Resurrection of Magneto, the actual most interesting part of the comic is the fact that the light blue Ego Gem of Nemesis is displayed alongside the 6 regular Infinity Gems.

 

[NaturalDestroyer]

I've got some fun stuff related to Nyx, but I'll save that for the Thor thread

 

[NaturalDestroyer]

Additionally, the Elder Gods are the least consistent and coherent group of entities in the entire Marvel cosmology. They very in power MASSIVELY. Nyx is not even an Elder God but a vastly greater being. The oppositional entities of the Cold Dark Room were just beings that were summoned to fight Storm in order to test her, they are not the primary residents nor do they scale to the Cold Dark Room in any capacity. It is also unknown if the entities depicted in The Cold Dark Room are even the original versions of these characters at their full power so it is not possible to draw any conclusions from this one way or the other. It is likely all metaphorical anyway as Storm's fight between these entities appears to Magneto and Shadow King as pieces on a chess board. In all reality, it is likely that the entire story is mostly metaphorical in nature. In their true forms, The Phoenix Force is the fire and light, the Tiger God is its eternal rival kept away by the light, and Nyx is the darkness that encompasses both. There is nothing in Immortal Thor that would put the Elder Gods even close to Nyx, as the darkness encompassing the phoenix force and tiger god, in power and importance in the Cosmic hierarchy, nor do Elder Gods scale to Nyx in any way shape or form. Nyx has her usual in universe forms, and in these forms she is a part of many pantheons including the Greek, where she gained the name Nyx, and in the Norse where she is referred to as Nott. These appearances are obviously not her true entirety, and scaling to them only grants one superiority to Skyfather tier characters such as Zeus, Odin, and Thor.

Anyways, there really is not much else to be said here. Storm breathing in the presence of a Dominion is an outlier, let alone damaging 8 at the same time .

While we are on the topic of The Resurrection of Magneto, the actual most interesting part of the comic is the fact that the light blue Ego Gem of Nemesis is displayed alongside the 6 regular Infinity Gems.

Out of curiosity, do you favor High 1-A for Nyx?

 

[PromptedElephant641]

Out of curiosity, do you favor High 1-A for Nyx?

Nyx as portrayed as the emodiment of the darkness that contains the Tiger God and surrounds the fire of The Phoenix is definitely High-1A. Depictions of her outside of this context, such as when she is a member of godly pantheons like the Greek or Norse or as a universal embodiment of darkness, start at skyfather level+ and above.

 

[Antvasima]

So should we remove the Dominions feat from Storm's page due to being an outlier, or consider it as her just harming lesser manifestations of them, and if so, how should we word our reasoning for it within her wiki page?

 

[Xdsagecat]

So should we remove the Dominions feat from Storm's page due to being an outlier, or consider it as her just harming lesser manifestations of them, and if so, how should we word our reasoning for it within her wiki page?

Hmm, maybe keep it and say "Possibly"?

 

[PromptedElephant641]

After looking it over, the Dominions that Storm encounters only mention that The Beyonders are afraid of them, this doesn’t have to mean that The Beyonders are afraid of These Doninions as they are presented in the story, but can instead refer to them being afraid of their true transcendent form. The Dominions are simply informing Storm that The Beyonders are afraid of them as a whole, not explicitly as they appear to Storm.

As such we should logically be able to state that Storm managed to harm lower form Dominions and not their true form. While the comic states that Overspace is in the Mystery, this is not true, as Hank Pym talked with 616-Eternity in Overspace after saving him from Chthon. So this would make sense in relation to how they appear in The Resurrection of Magneto.

So what should be done is change what she currently has as presented below:

• While in Overspace, Storm harmed eight Dominions at once with her powers, Dominions' power and nature make them capable of threatening the Beyonders.

To just this:

• While in Overspace, Storm harmed eight Dominions at once; however, she relied on the symbolic nature of the realm to do so and acknowledged her own inferiority recognizing that to them she is “food. A snack.”

There should also be a note on her page explaining that she only interacted with the manifestation of Dominions within the Timestream and not their true Whitehot Room level forms. It can also be explained in further detail regarding the symbolic nature that allowed her to harm these Dominions and that she believes that Magneto could have done what she had, but may not have as he might have believed that he “deserved their cruel intentions.”

 

[MrKerf]

Or better yet, make a CRT. Why do you lot always want to side step the rules, hmmm?

 

[PromptedElephant641]

It is such a minor thing that a staff member that is interested in Marvel can just unlock the profile and quickly make the changes. It is not affecting her actual tier, it is merely a change in justification for just one specific feat statement on her Attack Potency section. The only reason why I even brought this up was because without proper clarification, people could assume that Storm was capable of affecting true form Dominions when that is obviously not the case. She is still staying 1A at her peak just with a change to one of her supporting feats.

 

[Antvasima]

I don't mind a CRT being created, and would be willing to help out in it.

 

[Antvasima]

It is such a minor thing that a staff member that is interested in Marvel can just unlock the profile and quickly make the changes. It is not affecting her actual tier, it is merely a change in justification for just one specific feat statement on her Attack Potency section. The only reason why I even brought this up was because without proper clarification, people could assume that Storm was capable of affecting true form Dominions when that is obviously not the case. She is still staying 1A at her peak just with a change to one of her supporting feats.

I suppose that seems like a valid point, but we still need more staff approval than just myself.

 

[MrKerf]

These general discussions aren’t for applying changes. To revise any content one needs a certain thread.

 

[Antvasima]

Yes. Agreed. That is much preferable. We cannot be too lazy here.

 

[Eseseso]

Storm’s feat of harming eight Dominions in The Resurrection of Magneto should be removed from her profile. It was only possible due to the symbolic nature of the realm in which they were in. Storm even wonders if Magneto had done the same thing on his journey before her so it is not even something exclusive to her.

I can see that, yeah.

Though one has to wonder how she fought off all those True Phoenix-level beings in the Dark Cold Room.

 

[ProfectusInfinity]

Lotta things to respond to.

I think there's more of an implication that her enitre journey was governed by magic, as nothing in the scan suggests that she lost that symbolic power, if anything.

Storm lost her powers over "the storm" before encountering the Dominions, and while confronting Tarn, she implied that the storm is her truest self and identified the clouds as her signifier. I will concede that the entire journey was likely "symbolic" on some level (since Storm described it as a labyrinth of riddles and symbols), but given that Storm doubted if her powers held symbolic influence, and given that Overspace and the Dominions had scientific depictions/references during their encounter, I still insist that outside magic/symbolism had little sway over that specific point of her journey.

Similarly, it is heavily implied that she beats the Dark Cold Squad not with power specifically, but by standing as life against darkness.

I strongly disagree with this. It hinges on the idea that "life" was presented exclusively as abstract symbolism. While it was true that there were themes about life standing up to death, the "life" they used to defeat the true form of the Shadow King was their literal physical life-force energy (which Storm straight up describes it as "pooling their powers").

Not to mention, life against darkness wasn't the only message of the climax in the final showdown with the Shadow King. They (Magneto and Storm) actually defeated him by accepting their inner personal darkness, which all of those entities were representations of.

You could counter this by saying that this introduces 2 problems: the feat being situational due to being able to draw from their inner darkness, and the obvious outlier of Magneto scaling to the true form of the Shadow King. Both points are true, but even before any of that, Storm blatantly held her own against the shadow entities, and Magneto's confrontation with them before accepting his darkness didn't amount to a major physical fight, but a chess match.

And she does ponder if Magneto attempted to harness this symbolic power to fight back.

"And did Magneto go through this? This pain of knowledge, this spiritual vivisection? His life flipped through like a book?"

I'm not seeing it personally. The specific usage of the term vivisection just reinforces my point, considering how Magneto's information analysis from the Dominions was portrayed visually.

No, actually. He says that he considers Eternity to be a hive-mind, so every universal Eternity know 616 Storm, for example.

Fair.

One of the Adversary scans is missing, but from the context she doesn't have that power, but momentarily gains it through Wakanda's faith. The greater god is purely hyperbolic here.

Fair. However, the Adversary had a similar level of power in his appearances in classic Uncanny X-Men, and there were 3 statements for Storm scaling to him.

I don't have much to comment on that, since there's no way your argument is Blue Marvel is unharmed by the Phoenix in the WHR, without any external amps. Though if anything, I'd put it as another outlier.

My bad, I definitely could've interpreted that better. At any rate, the fundamental point still stands that the Phoenix held back and prolonged the fight amid an internal debate over whether or not to let the Defenders pass, and there were several Defenders there infinitely weaker than the Phoenix who she could've one-shot.

One thing I'll add, however, is that the Beyonder was still bound by the narrative Loki used against the Beyonders, which was a narrative that allowed "underdogs to win" which clearly amped the other Defenders, as evidence by Taaia tanking a close and large blast from a Beyonder with her hair and clothes merely getting ruined.

Ennead also includes Seth, who is weaker than Odin, Thor, and Loki. The Egyptian Pantheon isn't that much stronger than the Norse one. Atum is stronger in his Elder God form, but in his "lower" form, he is basically just Skyfather level. Odin impersonated him for a while.

I don't deny that the Egyptian pantheon has its fair share of regular herald and skyfather characters, I am saying that it has an unusual abundance of potentially or outright Elder God level characters who are relevant to some of my arguments. Same way the Norse pantheon includes direct Elder Gods like Tiwaz and arguably the Utgard Gods, if you count them.

Also, as far as I recall, Atum and Demogorge are the only distinctions in terms of power, with other names/appearances being differing art/writing choices. I don't even agree with the keying on Atum's current profile. Confluctor (who I think made the profile) knows more about Moon Knight stuff than me, but the scan about Ra and Khonshu using "earthly avatars" just seems to be describing Khonshu's Moon Knights and Ra's human agents like the Sun King.

That aside, Atum is absolutely not 'regular skyfather level,' he was the "first among skyfathers" and even in that Moon Knight run the "earthly avatars" scan came from, he was stated to be the king of the Many-Angled Ones. Also, this may not have been the argument you specifically were making, but I also completely reject the idea I've seen lately of a titanic power difference between Atum and Demogorge. Demogorge should be stronger since he's the end result of Atum slaying demons (like Elder Gods) and absorbing their powers, but Atum is the one who slaughtered all those Elder Gods in the first place to push forward his self-transformation into Demogorge, and the strongest Elder God Kemur is terrified of Atum specifically, and prayed that Atum show him mercy when Immortal Thor defeated Kemur by reminding him of Atum's superiority to him ages ago.

To reiterate, the Egyptian pantheon has many outright or potentially Elder God level beings (a couple of whom I haven't researched personally, so I have to use some hearsay near the end), including:

-Atum himself
-Thoth/Ibis, who is Atum's younger brother as a direct child of Demiurge and Gaea just like him, and has several statements for having fought the Elder God Set for eons or since the dawn of time, with this being depicted as a close-combat fight and described as a "death duel."
-Sekhmet, an agent of Atum who defeated both him and Elder God Set.
-Khonshu, whose profile lists several feats scaling him to the Elder God Set (though one of them refers to the Hell-Lord Seth) and also scales him above Wyrm ("being capable of destroying the multiverse"), who has an endless cosmic rivalry with Elder God Set that takes place in every reality at the same time as part of a cosmic balance.
-Anubis, who killed Ra/Atum.
-Bast, who is superior to Anubis.
-Oshtur herself, who presents as the goddess Ma'at.

Also, on Adversary's profile we accept him as being comparable to Mephisto and such. If he's not that should probably be fixed

That was my fault, I requested for the guy who added the profile to avoid including some high-end feats because his scaling involves a bunch of complicated cosmology stuff from several angles.

If Storm could unironically defeat multiple Dominions then she could’ve beaten Enigma by herself instead of it needing an amped version of the Phoenix to trap him in a deathloop. Storm being that strong just goes completely against every comic’s plot where she’s involved in.

This argument doesn't belong in Marvel power scaling.

Why doesn't Thor one-shot everything with his Celestial level godblast and Abstract level base form scaling?

Why doesn't Genis-Vell one-shot everything with his Multi-Eternity level scaling?

Why doesn't Hulk one-shot everything with his Onslaught scaling?

Why doesn't Abstract level Strange one-shot all herald tiers rather than struggling with many of them?

Why doesn't base Wanda one-shot everything with her scaling to the Phoenix Force and Abstract Chaos?

I could go on.

Additionally, the Elder Gods are the least consistent and coherent group of entities in the entire Marvel cosmology. They very in power MASSIVELY.

Vague... I'd like to hear specific anti-feats.

Nyx is not even an Elder God but a vastly greater being.

Never said she was.

The oppositional entities of the Cold Dark Room were just beings that were summoned to fight Storm in order to test her,

"Just summoned in order to test her" huh? Did I miss a plot point? Summoned by whom?

they are not the primary residents nor do they scale to the Cold Dark Room in any capacity.

The Adversary, throughout the 5-issue Phoenix Force Echo run, took control of the White Hot Room and drained power from White Phoenix Echo, and faced her in combat too. All of the shadow entities that appear in resurrection of Magneto borrow each others' guises so often that they're mistaken as aspects of each other, yet they're independent entities, shadows cast by the same light in many shapes, yet they're effectively the same shadow that can’t be categorized as distinct (which is to say that they should be relative to each other, and thus relative to true Adversary, who is White Hot Room level).

It is also unknown if the entities depicted in The Cold Dark Room are even the original versions of these characters at their full power so it is not possible to draw any conclusions from this one way or the other.

We're both talking about narrative implications here, and it's not the biggest leap to assume that the Adversary in the Darkness surrounding the White Hot Room should be at least slightly above (if not, in the exact same class) as his appearance in the White Hot Room. Half of the shadow entities are explicitly cosmic opponents of the universal phoenix force, so the narrative implication with their appearances in the aptly named Dark Cold Room being opposites of the Pheonix of the White Hot Room is an easy connection, though it's not my hinge in itself.

It is likely all metaphorical anyway as Storm's fight between these entities appears to Magneto and Shadow King as pieces on a chess board.

Non-sequitur.

There is nothing in Immortal Thor that would put the Elder Gods even close to Nyx, as the darkness encompassing the phoenix force and tiger god, in power and importance in the Cosmic hierarchy, nor do Elder Gods scale to Nyx in any way shape or form.

Lotta strong assertions here. With some credit to NaturalDestroyer (who explained to me a lot of the stronger interpretations of Nyx scaling in Immortal Thor), I want to point out a few things.

Reborn Zeus was stated to be a greater threat than full power Nyx, and he had the strength to directly counter her power.

Nyx was largely imprisoned by Loki's magic rune Uruz, which Thor had to overcome (by defeating Reborn Zeus) in order to gain the power to confront the Utgard Gods.

Thor turned the totality of Reborn Zeus's power into the belt Yolgjord, which makes Thor practically immune to implicitly all kinds of magic, but especialy Loki's rune-magic.

Hofund Sif internally doubted that Thor, who was armed with Yolgjord, would ever return after confronting the Utgard Gods.

It was stated that Tormod and Yolgjord weren't enough to confront the Utgard Gods (he needed aid from Skurge, who possibly had the third magic weapon crafted through Ullr's skald-magic, though Thor stated later that he still had 2 of 3 weapons).

The armies of the sentient city Elder God NRGL can overpower Yolgjord's endurance.

Despite Yolgjord, Utgard-Loki is fully capable of manipulating Thor with his story-magic, but holds back to let the story proceed.

Both Kemur and Mejed were capable of beating up Thor.

Nyx has her usual in universe forms, and in these forms she is a part of many pantheons including the Greek, where she gained the name Nyx, and in the Norse where she is referred to as Nott. These appearances are obviously not her true entirety, and scaling to them only grants one superiority to Skyfather tier characters such as Zeus, Odin, and Thor.

What are you talking about? The only form of Nyx I'm bringing up is her Dark Cold Room key.

After looking it over, the Dominions that Storm encounters only mention that The Beyonders are afraid of them, this doesn’t have to mean that The Beyonders are afraid of These Doninions as they are presented in the story, but can instead refer to them being afraid of their true transcendent form. The Dominions are simply informing Storm that The Beyonders are afraid of them as a whole, not explicitly as they appear to Storm.

You're invoking more and more speculation, particularly in regards to how the Dominions' keys work. Full-stop, there's one thing, and one thing only that signals the difference between the Dominions' 2 keys of power: whether or not they are "linear" at a given moment, not whether or not they're in the White Hot Room, and they directly state that they're non-linear while confronting Storm.

 

[Antvasima]

Profectus seems to make good points here.

 

[Antvasima]

Anyway, as much as Storm's development under Ewing and Ayodele does not make any logical sense, and has largely amounted to turning her into an absolutely arrogant, ego-tripping, and power-tripping Mary Suggs, who tends to use extreme aggression and violence as a first option, apparently has an enormous superiority complex chip on her shoulders, and reverses the real world rules about spiritual ascension (where, as far as I have understood, the less ego you have, the more spiritually advanced you tend to be, culminating in Buddhahood, not the more of an egomaniac you are, the more spiritually powerful you get, as is somehow the case with Storm), and as such makes her into a highly unlikeable and annoying author's pet power supremacy fantasy, her idiotic feats still somehow happened, and we unfortunately likely have to adapt to and list them.

 

[MrKerf]

"And did Magneto go through this? This pain of knowledge, this spiritual vivisection? His life flipped through like a book?"

I'm not seeing it personally. The specific usage of the term vivisection just reinforces my point, considering how Magneto's information analysis from the Dominions was portrayed visually.

Right after envoking symbolism and striking Dominions: "Did Magneto attempted something like this? Or was he too weary, too heartsick? Did he believe he deserved their cruel attentions?"

I'm not reading all the rest though, as to not indulge you all. I'll see you all in a CRT.

 

[ObberGobb]

Yes I think the rest of the discussion must be done in a CRT. Could whoever makes it summarize everyone's main arguments in the OP though, so we don't have to restart the discussion?

 

[Antvasima]

That would be appreciated, yes.