AyOgUyS
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Why not something like: "Varies depending on Divinity, Willpower, & Location, High 3-A normally, up to Low 1-A to 1-A at peak"
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Champion of Midgard: The Thor Odinson MegaCRT
- Thread starter NaturalDestroyer
- Start date
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- Thread starter
- #242
That's a much more elegant and efficient way of putting it. I like it
AyOgUyS
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AyOgUyS
He/Him- 3,227
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Something along the lines of: "In versus threads, the location of the battle should be preferably specified because attacks are more effective against Thor when he's outside of the Nine Realms. Thor subconsciously limits himself on Earth and is stronger in Asgard."?With a Note in the bottom detailing how specific location and willpower would affect the match and the requirement to use both when making one.
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- Thread starter
- #246
I think this plus clarifying the key used would be enough to make vs threads productive
AyOgUyS
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How does this sound:
"In versus threads, the location of the battle should be preferably specified because attacks are more effective against Thor when he's outside of the Nine Realms. Thor subconsciously limits himself on Earth and is stronger in Asgard. In addition, the key being used should be specified."
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- Thread starter
- #248
Sweet! I feel like we're making real progress here
MrKerf
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Well... A bit better written perhaps. "Due to Thor's (bla bla bla), it is heavily advised to carefully consider the location, emotional state, and the stakes of the versus thread".
AyOgUyS
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How about:
"Due to Thor's strength and power varying depending on where he is, his emotional state, and the stakes of the battle, it is heavily advised to carefully consider such factors when creating versus threads. Please see this page (link to Thor variability blog) for more information"
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- #251
Oooh that's quite nice
MrKerf
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Yes, but it needs to be in line with our other explanations. So it has to be fully explained like Adamantium. "Historically, Thor's power fluctuates... subconsiously holds back... gods are weak when not in their home world... Therefore... versus threads."
AyOgUyS
He/Him- 3,227
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How does this sound:
"Historically, Thor's power fluctuates depending on his emotional state and his willpower. He subconsciously holds back often, especially on Earth. Gods are weaker when not in their home world. Therefore, the location of the battle alongside the stakes that may affect Thor's emotions and will should be carefully considered in versus threads."
MrKerf
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-_-
I don't like it XD I can't do anything to myself, it just feels sauceless, for the lack of the better term.
AyOgUyS
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¯\(ツ)/¯
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- Thread starter
- #256
When I get some time to sit down and think today I can hammer out a more prose-appropriate and refined version
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- Thread starter
- #258
You're welcome! I'm glad that we seem to be making progress as we all figure this out togetherThank you for helping out.
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- #259
"Historically, Thor's power fluctuates depending on his emotional state and his willpower. He subconsciously holds back often, especially on Earth. Gods are weaker when not in their home world. Therefore, the location of the battle alongside the stakes that may affect Thor's emotions and will should be carefully considered in versus threads."
To:
"Thor's power depends upon multiple variables, including his own worthiness, emotional state, his story as a god, acceptance of his Asgardian-Elder God heritage, and even the location of the battle, being weaker outside of Asgard or the Nine Realms. In many stories he is frequently depicted as superior but comparable to Herald-level characters like Silver Surfer and Hyperion, but it is not uncommon for Thor to battle Skyfather or Hell Lord-tier opponents and he has multiple feats of shaking all of the Nine Realms with his blows. He also has multiple feats of him harming or otherwise scaling to Yggdrasil, which makes up all that is. His tiering is split to account for how the power level of gods, who are stories and physical manifestations of belief, can fluctuate. This includes Thor's personal belief in himself, which empowered him to the point where in base he defeated M.Y.T.H.O.S., who had previously oneshot his Complete All-Father form." (this would be a note at the bottom of his profile)
Option 1: Varies according to Divinity, Willpower, and Location. High 3-A (placeholder Herald tier) normally, up to Low 1-A or 1-A at peak.
Option 2: Varies according to Divine Willpower and Location. High 3-A (placeholder Herald tier) normally, up to Low 1-A or 1-A at peak.
Option 3: Varies according to Belief, Willpower, and Location. High 3-A (placeholder Herald tier) normally, up to Low 1-A or 1-A at peak.
To:
"Thor's power depends upon multiple variables, including his own worthiness, emotional state, his story as a god, acceptance of his Asgardian-Elder God heritage, and even the location of the battle, being weaker outside of Asgard or the Nine Realms. In many stories he is frequently depicted as superior but comparable to Herald-level characters like Silver Surfer and Hyperion, but it is not uncommon for Thor to battle Skyfather or Hell Lord-tier opponents and he has multiple feats of shaking all of the Nine Realms with his blows. He also has multiple feats of him harming or otherwise scaling to Yggdrasil, which makes up all that is. His tiering is split to account for how the power level of gods, who are stories and physical manifestations of belief, can fluctuate. This includes Thor's personal belief in himself, which empowered him to the point where in base he defeated M.Y.T.H.O.S., who had previously oneshot his Complete All-Father form." (this would be a note at the bottom of his profile)
Option 1: Varies according to Divinity, Willpower, and Location. High 3-A (placeholder Herald tier) normally, up to Low 1-A or 1-A at peak.
Option 2: Varies according to Divine Willpower and Location. High 3-A (placeholder Herald tier) normally, up to Low 1-A or 1-A at peak.
Option 3: Varies according to Belief, Willpower, and Location. High 3-A (placeholder Herald tier) normally, up to Low 1-A or 1-A at peak.
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AyOgUyS
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Option 3 looks like the best one to me
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- Thread starter
- #261
I'm leaning towards that one personally as well
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Option 3
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- #266
It may be best to let that rework be its own thing once the time comes, since it sounds like it's going to be verse-wide.Option 3 in that case, but I prefer FinePoint's more general solution of ascribing the inconsistencies to different narrative portrayals rather than in-story mechanisms.
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Are there any arguments I need to review, or is the OP unchanged?
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- #268
The OP has been updated to reflect the current consensus. I'm also working on a sandbox profile with the proposed changes to provide a better visualization of what the practical effect of the CRT would be
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Okay, because I read the OP and I thought it looked good, but I don't know Marvel all that well.
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I don't think the Phoenix Force First Firmament feat is good for 1-A+. The feat is Thor helping other Phoenix Force Avatars do it, so this feat would upgrade virtually every Phoenix Avatar to Multiversal Abstract level. That obviously makes no sense, since the Universal Phoenix is only Uni Abstract level. Also, the feat description says "Omniversal Destruction" but the panel says "Multiversal Destruction." Why change the wording like that?
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Mmm. Those are good points. I copied that feat directly from the original Thor profile, but I don't know the rationale behind putting omniversal instead of multiversal. Good catch
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I think the mention is definitely worth mentioning, but it seems more like a standard Low 1-A/1-A feat to me. Also, iirc that is All-Father Thor. Should we be backscaling this feat to base Thor? I don't know
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- #273
I agree that it should probably just be standard 1-A. I'm not really sure how it got bumped up to omniversal in the first place. My understanding is that it was in base Thor's key because it's technically not connected to the Allpower in any way and just had to do with him "accepting his heritage" and tapping into the power consciously, so in theory he'd be about to do that in any of his keys. I'll fix the OP when I get back to working on it tomorrow.
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I suppose it is a different power source than the Thorforce, so theoretically should be similar in his base form's Low 1-A end. Maybe add a note saying like "Thor was in his All-Father state at the time of performing this feat. However, as the Phoenix fire is a separate power source from the Thorforce and one Thor possesses even in his 'base' form, it was judged to be applicable to this key"
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Only 4 of them, it's not a group large enough where dividing the feat equally is controversial. Thor's involvement is the factor that shifts the flood from being slowed to fully halted.
What? How? Phoenix Force hosts vary based on emotional capacity, this is literally stated and demonstrated in the same issue where the feat occurs.
-Both Firehair and Echo survive being submerged in the Omniversal flood, as shown in the gallery above.
-Adani, a Phoenix Force avatar, warped the Nexus of All Realities to expand the Shadow Realm. Universal Phoenix Force Jean Grey, gave Adani her powers and was stronger than her.
-Phoenix Force Echo is stated to be able to combine her street-tier power mimicry with her phoenix abilities to become an "echo" of all beings who can end the phoenix; this is stated a single page after the scan that states that Molecule Man, the Living Tribunal, and the Beyonders are among the beings who could end Phoenix Force Echo if she were unprepared.
The wave/flood is composed of the remains of the First Firmament, embodiment of the First Omniverse, and literally the first page of that issue states that the flood would drown the Omniversal Orchard of the God Quarry.
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Is it consistent for Universal Phoenix to have this level of power? Like the Omniversal Flood feat is good, but is it not an outlier? The scan you listed for emotional empowerment is extremely vague and generic "love beats all" stuff. Without more evidence, that does not justify a character who 1) Is stated to be able to be killed by the likes of Odin and Thanos, and 2) Is explicitly weaker than Universal Eternity (Eternity is the strongest mystical entity) from suddenly scaling to Multiversal Eternity. That just isn't consistent. The scaling chain would then be Uni Eternity > Uni Phoenix = Multi-Eternity > Uni Eternity.
Another problem is that affecting the entire Multiverse is something tons of characters can do, but not all of them are above or even at Abstract level. Eric Masterson could power a machine that could collapse every timeline into one. Amora threatened to destroy the multiverse with her magic. Thor, Surtur, Odin, Hercules, Storm, etc. all have feats of affecting Yggdrasil, which spans the Multiverse. Odin and Zeus are stated to have the power to destroy the Multiverse. Galactus vs. Scrier vs. Other would have destroyed every reality in the Multiverse. Feats on the level of the supposedly 1-A+ Phoenix Force feats are quite common, and all of these characters are objectively weaker than Universal Eternity, who is just normal 1-A.
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Also, just to add a couple more things, the White Hot Room is connected to the spine of the universe and serves as the nexus between all phoenix hosts and their fire, and even Concordance Engines, which are placed within planets across the multiverse, draw power from the White Hot Room (as revealed at the end of Defenders: beyond 2).
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But does the Universal Phoenix Force scale to that? True Phoenix Force lives there and scales to it, which is accepted as High 1-A. The Universal Phoenix Force is a cosmic entity in each universe, and is below Eternity in the cosmic hierarchy.
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Well, I think that the more powerful Phoenix Force avatars can apparently draw upon the entire multiversal Phoenix Force when needed, such as when Jean Grey fought the Enigma Nathaniel Essex, or when several avatars repelled the corpse of the multiverse-destroying First Firmament.
Marvel comics often flows back and forth between a universal and multiversal context without clearly defined borders between them in the narrative.
Marvel comics often flows back and forth between a universal and multiversal context without clearly defined borders between them in the narrative.
MrKerf
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I should note that Jean wouldn’t be able to stop Enigma without PhoenixWell, I think that the more powerful Phoenix Force avatars can apparently draw upon the entire multiversal Phoenix Force when needed, such as when Jean Grey fought the Enigma Nathaniel Essex, or when several avatars repelled the corpse of the multiverse-destroying First Firmament.
Marvel comics often flows back and forth between a universal and multiversal context without clearly defined borders between them in the narrative.
manifesting on a scale never seen before, combining mutants from different timelines (kinda).
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