Acausality and a bit of cosmology specific abilities indexing clarifications

[Mbpoops]

Hello!

Permission from @ActuallySpaceMan42

So for a bit (cant remember how long) i and a few other have been under the belief that verses with branching timelines cannot have acausality type 1 due to it being a "cosmology specific ability", so verses with MWI or other versions of branching timelines were exempt from the ability. However recently, there have been many arguments explaining that this is an applicable ability verse wide since by nature of MWI and branching timelines, the characters are immune to changes in the past. This also kinda goes into my next thing about cosmology applicable abilities.

So in this CRT it was argued multiple times that because of Brane cosmology, a verse specific cosmology, that gravity hax wouldnt be applicable for AP because "gravity in branes has the same force on every dimension" and thus gravity abilities are not indexable for AP or VS matchups without the same cosmology under this idea.

My main question would be; "are these really not applicable because of the cosmology" and if so why not? Acausality itself is cosmology based, not every verse has the same function of time so abilities like type 1 3 or 4 acausality would be really weird to apply in a vs matchup because not every verse applies time and causality the same. Info 2 and cm reality warping dura neg power null power resistence (these last 2 in some cases not all) would be very weird to apply because not every verse has the same concepts or info 2 justification nor are they at the same level.

This would likely mean every verse with branching timelines or something of the sort would get acausality type 1 but it can be a bit stricter if you want im not too particular about it, this is mostly just for clarification.

 

[Hecky2222]

Why it is staff thread if it is just question?

 

[Mbpoops]

Why it is staff thread if it is just question?

i mean its applying type 1 acausality to any verse with branching timelines but eh there have been staff discussions that are also questions i believe.

 

[RaikiKurohane99]

Just like what I said before, I do believe verse-specific mechanics are still indexable.

By definition of our Acausality Page:

Type 1: Time Paradox Immunity: Characters with this type of Acausality are rendered immune to changes in the past and standard temporal paradoxes, but remain just as vulnerable in the present and can be affected by normal Causality Manipulation and similar abilities.

I believe MWI on some level would necessarily qualify for this, so long as changes to the past are always shifted to another timeline and the original timeline/world remains the same, unaffected by said time travel.

However, we could add scrutiny on what cases of MWI qualify and don't. For one, just having constantly branching possibilities (timelines), for two, having timelines branching whenever time travel happens, and for three, a combination of the previous two where timelines can branch from possibilities and also from time travel.

One does not qualify since it doesn't prove it can prevent time paradoxes in an individual timeline, but two and three do qualify.
In short, as long as the verse makes it clear that changes to the past are shifted to another timeline, it should be Acausality type 1 and an indexable verse mechanic.

In a way, information and concepts are also inverse mechanics. Concepts in one verse can be some metaphysical energy, in another they can be the-thing-itself, yet so long they have the same type, we currently assume they can effect each other (provided no other external factors such as concepts being more metaphysical in one verse than the other as a result of metaphysical aspect hierarchies). So denying Acausality would be denying these as well.

Moving on to the next part, Gravity hax in such a cosmology would not necessarily be equal in Attack potency to the number of dimensions it can affect (i.e., 4D, 5D, 11D, etc.) as AP requires one to affect structures of significant sizes even in higher dimensions (harming a 4D entity is not the same as destroying an infinite 4D structure). And hax itself often ignores durability, so rather than having a "Y tier" label slapped on to it, it would be better to index it as "X-tier (Description), can ignore conventional durability with Gravity/some arbitrary hax". A note could also be added to index that this ability works on X-dimensional entities.

This does not however mean it cannot work in cross-verse battles, in any way.

 

[Antvasima]

Can somebody summarise what Mbpoops wants us to do here exactly in an easy to understand manner please?

 

[Vietthai96]

Can somebody summarise what Mbpoops wants us to do here exactly in an easy to understand manner please?

What the OP mean is that is cosmology specific characteristics applicable for profile? Such as branching timelimes cosmology have acausality type 1 because it solves time paradox by branching out a new timeline when the past is altered (example: Dragon Ball cosmology)

Just like what I said before, I do believe verse-specific mechanics are still indexable.

No, the issue isn't verse-specific mechanics, the issue is that these mechanics aren't character inherrent ability, it is the cosmology ability. Such as Dragon Ball verse with branching timelines, the past is protected because the cosmology will branching out a new timeline when the past is altered, but that is the multiverse mechanic that branching timeline out to solves time paradox, not the characters' ability within the verse

 

[Antvasima]

@Mr. Bambu @DarkDragonMedeus @Just a Random Butler @Qawsedf234 @SomebodyData @Celestial_Pegasus @Elizhaa @Damage3245 @Starter_Pack @Abstractions @Colonel_Krukov @SamanPatou @GyroNutz @Firestorm808 @Maverick_Zero_X @Crabwhale @GrathOfLux @Dereck03 @Planck69 @LephyrTheRevanchist

What do you think that we should do here?

 

[RaikiKurohane99]

No, the issue isn't verse-specific mechanics, the issue is that these mechanics aren't character inherrent ability, it is the cosmology ability. Such as Dragon Ball verse with branching timelines, the past is protected because the cosmology will branching out a new timeline when the past is altered, but that is the multiverse mechanic that branching timeline out to solves time paradox, not the characters' ability within the verse

Whether it is the character's own ability or inherent to the cosmology, it can still be indexed.

"It's because of some verse mechanic" is not an argument. Even the existence of cosmological structures beyond tier 3 can be classified as "Verse Mechanics" since not all settings have them, yet we index them, because they play a role in the story.

Same with the more abstract side of powers like Conceptual Manipulation and Information Manipulation. Not all concepts across all verses are the same, yet we assume they can work against each other in a cross-verse battle, and we index them.

Likewise, we can also index Timeline Branching mechanics as long as it's an established setting in-verse that Time Travel cannot change the past of a pre-existing timeline and instead generates a new one.

This is because these characters are, due to the inherent nature of their verse, are used to these types of attacks not affecting them in the present. It is their 'default setting' in a way. If we do not index that, and assume that another time traveller from another verse can still effect them, we are putting them in a disadvantageous situation that they would never face if they were inside their own setting. And at that point cross-verse battles do not make sense in the least as we're giving one character an unfair advantage over the other.

Use for instance the same example I used with the concept of "Skills" and "Inherent powers" across various fictional settings. You have not given me any reason to believe that verse-specific mechanics cannot be indexed other than an a "No" written in more decorative and lengthy forms.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I'm unsure what the question is.

 

[Mbpoops]

I'm unsure what the question is.

As said in the op there seems to be confusion on weather verse specific abilities such as acausality type 1 via MWI or brane cosmology gravity is applicable to profiles or not for example this crt was more or less clarifying if stuff like MWI branching timelines gave characters acausality, among other verse specific things (type 3 should also apply to this)

 

[Tyrkanzyaka]

No, the issue isn't verse-specific mechanics, the issue is that these mechanics aren't character inherrent ability, it is the cosmology ability. Such as Dragon Ball verse with branching timelines, the past is protected because the cosmology will branching out a new timeline when the past is altered, but that is the multiverse mechanic that branching timeline out to solves time paradox, not the characters' ability within the verse

I’m pretty sure regardless of this, abilities that are given by virtue of the laws of the verse are still indexed. An example being of how characters in fire force are listed with time travel via ftl speed. If verses weren’t indexed via the laws they worked on, many verses would lose alot of their abilities.

 

[Nighting4l33yes]

so.. what now

 

[Antvasima]

@Theglassman12 @Elizhaa @TheUnshakableOne @Deceived3596 @TheGreatJedi13 @TWILIGHT-OP @Astral_Trinity439 @FinePoint

What do you think about this?

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

I'm not too familiar with Verse-specific abilities. So I cannot comment on it

But as for Acausality Type 1 on MWI

I would depend on the mechanism.
Some Branching Timelines tend to have weird scenarios where affecting a branch further back into the past can still affect all branches that spawned from it, or affecting a branch can affect another branch near it.

without elaboration on how their Branching timeline or MWI works. They shouldn't necessarily be granted Acausality Type 1.
But if it's argued sufficiently, such as "All actions or inaction[All Events] can create a branch or All branches become independent from each other,"
Then Acausality Type 1 would fit into it.
At the very least, the verse must establish that each branch is not affected or can be independent from other branches

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

@Theglassman12 @Elizhaa @TheUnshakableOne @Deceived3596 @TheGreatJedi13 @TWILIGHT-OP @Astral_Trinity439 @FinePoint

What do you think about this?

Generally agree with Raiki and Mbpoops here.

As far as "it's a verse mechanic!" goes, there are just so many things in our standards that fall under that, yet are still indexed in the profiles.

Regeneration/Resurrection at a high godly level, for example, use fundamental aspects. But we admit that each verse can have a different one, some can treat information as fundamental, some can treat history as fundamental, and so on the list goes to encompass almost every hax. Metaphysical layering is also a thing. A verse can treat "concepts > information" or one concept defining another, and we index that normally and treat it valid for cross verse battles.

All of this are "Verse Specific Mechanics" no matter how you see it, so I don't see them problem behind why other verse mechanics that also present certain inherent advantages to a character would not be indexed, such as an MWI where time travel creates other timelines instead of changing the present one, or some Gravity hax that can effect 11D.

I mean, realistically we try to make sure the environment of a vs battle is such that no character faces an unnatural disadvantage compared to what they face in their own universe. If they are from a universe where you can't change the present by time traveling because it just branches off to a separate timeline entirely, then assuming that wouldn't work in a cross-verse battles would be assuming unnatural disadvantages for one side.

The only requirement would be for a verse to establish the mechanic explicitly, not implicitly, and preferably there should be an example in the verse itself of someone, or even the entire original timeline, not being affected by time travel.