Establishing Gap Needed for LS Stomps

[StarShooter80]

Permission granted by @DarkDragonMedeus

On the one-shot page, it lists that the necessary amount of force needed for an AP stomp is 8x, in regards to humanoid characters:

With a humanoid character, versus threads usually treat the assailant as needing an Attack Potency eight times higher than their opponent's durability to one-shot them. This gap comes from the difference between the upper bound of a Human level character's strength (106 Joules) and the energy needed to fragment an average human skull in one blow (838.5 Joules). Note that this value is only an approximation, and the actual gap can be higher or lower depending on certain factors; do not assume that a gap of 8× will lead to a one-shot in every conceivable situation.

• If one character exhibited his level of attack potency casually and another nearly died while exhibiting his level of durability, or vice versa, the gap between their respective statistics that is needed for a one-shot to happen may be lower or higher than 8×.
• A character can one-shot another without a significant strength advantage by targeting weak points.
• This gap's use is restricted solely to comparing pre-existing statistics already approved and indexed on profiles in versus threads to determine if one character can viably one-shot another in a matchup. The gap never applies when analyzing the power level of in-universe feats of one-shotting other characters under any circumstances, as using it as a multiplier for powerscaling purposes constitutes Calc Stacking regardless of whether it occurs in indexing or matchup debates.

This has been heavily useful for VS threads in determining whether or not a matchup between two characters could have an AP stomp between them. However lifting strength doesn't have a set basis for what would be enough to stomp another character, which should be rectified.

For lifting strength, the necessary amount needed to break/snap a neck is 1000-1250 lbf, with the amount of ibf the upper-bound human is worth being 176.3696 ibf (80 kg), which is an LS difference of 5.66991136795x to 7.08738920993x, so around 5.5 to 7x for simplicity sake. However the snapping neck calc also outlines this:

However, technique can greatly reduce the lifting strength necessary through leverage and body weight application.

So there should be an added note on how characters that demonstrate skill or knowledge in proficient neck snapping (such as certain assassins, martial artists) should be given more leniency on LS differences in their favour.

However it should also be noted that this is only if the characters in question are still within the same ball-park in AP, as agreed upon in a past staff thread, and added to the LS page. Characters with a greater LS, in AP stomps not in their favour, would still need to resort to restraining, grappling and potentially choking.

---

Here's a draft for what this addition would look like on the LS page, red is old, green is new:

Lifting Strength in VS Matches​

Lifting Strength is the amount of physical force a character can output, but it is not always proportional to Striking Strength or Attack Potency. Sometimes a character has lifting feats vastly disproportionate to their general physical output, such as a character having extremely impressive Attack Potency feats but no Lifting Strength showings beyond Peak Human levels. In a VS Match Attack Potency is still required to overcome the opponent's Durability. Even if a character seriously outmatches their opponent in Lifting Strength, if their Attack Potency is too low for them to affect the other's Durability in such a fashion they will be unable to crush or sever body parts, break bones or dislocate joints. They will still be capable of restraining, grappling and potentially choking the other character, though such strategies may prove unfeasible with a massive statistical disparity.

With a humanoid character, versus threads usually treat the assailant as needing Lifting Strength around 5.5 to 7 times higher than their opponent's strength to neck-snap/break them. This gap comes from the difference between the upper bound of a Human level character's strength (176.3696 ibf) and the energy needed to break the neck of the average human in move (1000-1250 lbf). Note that this value is only an approximation, and the actual gap can be higher or lower depending on certain factors; do not assume that a gap of 5.5 to 7 times will lead to a lifting strength stomp in every conceivable situation.

• Technique can greatly reduce the lifting strength necessary through leverage and body weight application. So characters that demonstrate skill or knowledge in proficient neck snapping (such as certain assassins, martial artists) should be given more leniency on LS differences in their favour during VS matchups.
• This is only if the characters in question are still within the same ball-park in Attack Potency, as agreed upon in a past staff thread, and stated earlier in this section of the page. Characters with a greater Lifting Strength, in Attack Potency stomps not in their favour, would still need to resort to restraining, grappling and potentially choking instead.
• This gap's use is restricted solely to comparing pre-existing statistics already approved and indexed on profiles in versus threads to determine if one character can viably stomp another via lifting strength in a matchup. The gap never applies when analyzing the power level of in-universe feats of that with stomping other characters under any circumstances, as using it as a multiplier for powerscaling purposes constitutes Calc Stacking regardless of whether it occurs in indexing or matchup debates.

I'm indecisive between having either the 5.5x difference or 7x difference be the fixed norm, I'd lean more with the 7x value since its source is wikipedia instead of a video from an influencer, not that it discredits them more its just that it seems like a more proper source to derive from, though again still iffy, so input from staff on that would be good.

There could also be other ways of determining the necessary force for an LS stomp which this thread will be open to as additional proposal options.

Agree:

Neutral:

Disagree:

 

[Random-Helper323]

Lifting strength doesn't automatically correlate with durability. A character with Class M lifting strength and City level AP isn't breaking the neck of a character with Class 5 lifting strength and Large Planet level durability.

 

[StarShooter80]

Lifting strength doesn't automatically correlate with durability. A character with Class M lifting strength and City level AP isn't breaking the neck of a character with Class 5 lifting strength and Moon level durability.

The thread already covers that this is only if the two characters are within the same Tier/Attack Potency

However it should also be noted that this is only if the characters in question are still within the same ball-park in AP, as agreed upon in a past staff thread, and added to the LS page. Characters with a greater LS, in AP stomps not in their favour, would still need to resort to restraining, grappling and potentially choking.

 

[Random-Helper323]

The thread already covers that this is only if the two characters are within the same Tier/Attack Potency

You'd also need the lifting strength and AP to be in a similar range to each other. Realistically, you're not damaging a Tier 5 character using Class M strength just because that character has lower lifting strength. A character that can tank zettatons of TNT isn't getting killed by a few million tons of pressure.

There is, however, consideration for the ability to reliably control them using that lifting strength.

 

[FinePoint]

There is, however, consideration for the ability to reliably control them using that lifting strength.

I think we can make the argument that 7x LS lets them either snap their neck or easily restrain them, since both would be standard wincons.

Exceptions could be discussed on the versus thread itself.

 

[AguilaR202]

You can’t overcome AP gaps with LS alone, the instant you try to apply that pressure in a direction it becomes measurable in joules AP and it is often so much lower than where character rate ( for reference just being able to lift class M weights for an arms length is barely Building levels worth of work) unless the character derives the former from feats that double as LS with both stats being relatively close to each other.

 

[Random-Helper323]

I think we can make the argument that 7x LS lets them either snap their neck

That lifting strength would need to have a higher yield than their durability as well, not just their own lifting strength.

or easily restrain them, since both would be standard wincons.

Restraining is fine.

 

[FinePoint]

That lifting strength would need to have a higher yield than their durability as well, not just their own lifting strength.

I see your point.

So what ratio of lifting strength to durability would you propose, or do you think it's not possible to standardize?

 

[Qawsedf234]

So what ratio of lifting strength to durability would you propose, or do you think it's not possible to standardize?

With AP under <2x then a 4-5x LS rating (and the right positioning) should let you easily shatter limbs, tear stuff, or snap necks. Once you get into the >5x AP range, your only viable option is choking, and that's only if it's mechanically possible for the character to put enough pressure around the neck to constrict an air passage.

 

[Random-Helper323]

With AP under <2x then a 4-5x LS rating (and the right positioning) should let you easily shatter limbs, tear stuff, or snap necks.
Once you get into the >5x AP range, your only viable option is choking, and that's only if it's mechanically possible for the character to put enough pressure around the neck to constrict an air passage.

The issue is that the lifting strength itself is a yield, and in this case it's being pitted against durability. Having someone with Class K lifting strength try to crush you is similar to having a small building planted on you, so I must raise the issue that a character in Tier 6 isn't going to be crushed by that kind of pressure just because their own lifting strength is Class 5.

 

[Qawsedf234]

The issue is that the lifting strength itself is a yield, and in this case it's being pitted against durability. Having someone with Class K lifting strength try to crush you is similar to having a small building planted on you, so I must raise the issue that a character in Tier 6 isn't going to be crushed by that kind of pressure just because their own lifting strength is Class 5

Damage is done through AP, not lifting strength on the site. Lifting is mostly for grappling holds and chokes.

 

[Random-Helper323]

Damage is done through AP, not lifting strength on the site. Lifting is mostly for grappling holds and chokes.

Yes, but the proposal is a large lifting strength gap allowing for a oneshot. You just said above:

With AP under <2x then a 4-5x LS rating (and the right positioning) should let you easily shatter limbs, tear stuff, or snap necks. Once you get into the >5x AP range, your only viable option is choking, and that's only if it's mechanically possible for the character to put enough pressure around the neck to constrict an air passage.

This seems to be implying that a character with more than half the AP of their opponent but 4-5 or more times their lifting strength should allow for tearing their opponent apart despite the AP gap. Is that what you're saying here, or do you mean a times 2 AP advantage and a time 4-5 LS gap over the opponent? Either way, I'd have to raise some issues about lifting strength being that potent if the opponent has durability that vastly exceeds the sort of pressure that lifting strength would apply.

 

[StarShooter80]

I'd have to raise some issues about lifting strength being that potent if the opponent has durability that vastly exceeds the sort of pressure that lifting strength would apply.

Then how does it make sense with how we rate certain verses? For example Dragon Ball Z characters only have Class M to G LS (soon that's getting downgraded too but that doesn't change the point) and yet they still demonstrate feats of tearing/ripping apart other comparable characters' limbs. So realistically, what's stopping a character from another verse, with comparable AP but Class T LS, from also ripping apart Cell's tail? or Android 16's arms? Another example would be MCU Rescue being able to tear off the arm of a Mark 7 Iron Man armour, yet Rescue only has Class 100 LS and the latter has Small City level durability? Unless we have to say that the lifting strength of all these characters must be proportional to their attack potency, which we don't.

 

[Qawsedf234]

This seems to be implying that a character with more than half the AP of their opponent but 4-5 or more times their lifting strength should allow for tearing their opponent apart despite the AP gap.

The AP gap is saying "If the AP difference between the two is under 2x". For tearing their opponent apart, I didn't intend for that to be read that way. I was talking about tearing muscles. Which is why I mentioned "and the right positioning". It's why an experienced grappler can break limbs or cause muscle tears in another person, because they can get them in a hold that stresses those areas.

Ripping off a limb entirely requires superior AP under our system, not lifting strength. It's why the page mentions that:

In a VS Match Attack Potency is still required to overcome the opponent's Durability. Even if a character seriously outmatches their opponent in Lifting Strength, if their Attack Potency is too low for them to affect the other's Durability in such a fashion they will be unable to crush or sever body parts, break bones or dislocate joints.

 

[StarShooter80]

Bump

 

[Antvasima]

So what should we do here?

 

[Random-Helper323]

I've noticed a few vs threads lately with very different Tiers where the lower Tier character had better lifting strength and the threads treat it as a wincon. Also, someone said this was intended to target a particular verse. I'm fine with saying a person with higher lifting strength can easily restrain their opponent, but let's make sure to not forget how key AP is here. If one character can dish out a flick of their finger with millions of times more AP than their opponent can take, and withstand millions of times more force than their opponent can dish out, their opponent's better lifting strength isn't a winning ability. It is different if their AP is the same though.

 

[FinePoint]

So what should we do here?

Well truthfully we need more input, as there has been little so far and conflicting opinions.

 

[StarShooter80]

I've noticed a few vs threads lately with very different Tiers where the lower Tier character had better lifting strength and the threads treat it as a wincon.

I'm fine with saying a person with higher lifting strength can easily restrain their opponent, but let's make sure to not forget how key AP is here. If one character can dish out a flick of their finger with millions of times more AP than their opponent can take, and withstand millions of times more force than their opponent can dish out, their opponent's better lifting strength isn't a winning ability. It is different if their AP is the same though.

We already had a thread cover this issue before, and the second bullet-point of my draft already includes this:

• This is only if the characters in question are still within the same ball-park in Attack Potency, as agreed upon in a past staff thread, and stated earlier in this section of the page. Characters with a greater Lifting Strength, in Attack Potency stomps not in their favour, would still need to resort to restraining, grappling and potentially choking instead.

Also, someone said this was intended to target a particular verse

What verse would this be targeted towards? And I can assure you I had no intention of having this be directed towards anything really, I'm not even sure what verse this addition would scrutinize

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

If a gap is to be instituted, it should be noted that using it to derive LS from in-universe feats is disallowed as calc stacking.

 

[StarShooter80]

If a gap is to be instituted, it should be noted that using it to derive LS from in-universe feats is disallowed as calc stacking.

Added to the draft, using the same wording as the one noted on the One-Shot page

This gap's use is restricted solely to comparing pre-existing statistics already approved and indexed on profiles in versus threads to determine if one character can viably stomp another via lifting strength in a matchup. The gap never applies when analyzing the power level of in-universe feats of that with stomping other characters under any circumstances, as using it as a multiplier for powerscaling purposes constitutes Calc Stacking regardless of whether it occurs in indexing or matchup debates.

 

[Dalesean027]

Lifting strength doesn't automatically correlate with durability. A character with Class M lifting strength and City level AP isn't breaking the neck of a character with Class 5 lifting strength and Large Planet level durability.

Thats not what the thread is proposing

I've noticed a few vs threads lately with very different Tiers where the lower Tier character had better lifting strength and the threads treat it as a wincon

Because it can be a wincon, a lower tier character with significantly higher LS could still choke or restrain or bfr their opponent without much issue with the right means to do so, its not recommended when the AP gap is significant though especially if the character has no means of utilizing LS without physically interacting themself since micromovements from a significantly higher tier could kill them if the gap is truly massive but means like TK or something like Spider-Man's webbing is absolutely good in this scenario if they have much higher LS.

The AP gap is saying "If the AP difference between the two is under 2x". For tearing their opponent apart, I didn't intend for that to be read that way. I was talking about tearing muscles. Which is why I mentioned "and the right positioning". It's why an experienced grappler can break limbs or cause muscle tears in another person, because they can get them in a hold that stresses those areas.

Ripping off a limb entirely requires superior AP under our system, not lifting strength. It's why the page mentions that:

This is fine to me

 

[Armorchompy]

The AP gap is saying "If the AP difference between the two is under 2x". For tearing their opponent apart, I didn't intend for that to be read that way. I was talking about tearing muscles. Which is why I mentioned "and the right positioning". It's why an experienced grappler can break limbs or cause muscle tears in another person, because they can get them in a hold that stresses those areas.

Ripping off a limb entirely requires superior AP under our system, not lifting strength. It's why the page mentions that:

This seems fine to me, comparable AP/Dura lets you do what people can do to each other with LS, with greater ease, but tearing someone apart needs higher AP.

 

[Antvasima]

Well truthfully we need more input, as there has been little so far and conflicting opinions.

Can somebody summarise which staff members that think which conflicting opinions please? That would likely help before we call for more staff input.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Can somebody summarise which staff members that think which conflicting opinions please? That would likely help before we call for more staff input.

I sorta agreed to it (though I'm not entirely for a hard 5-7x statement in place), most of the discussion was about AP vs LS in vs matches.

If I had to rewrite the OP to make the issues brought up by @Random-Helper323 clearer:

With a humanoid character, versus threads usually treat the assailant as needing Lifting Strength around 5.5 to 7 times higher than their opponent's strength to neck-snap/break them while having similar AP. This gap comes from the difference between the upper bound of a Human level character's strength (176.3696 ibf) and the energy needed to break the neck of the average human in move (1000-1250 lbf). Note that this value is only an approximation, and the actual gap can be higher or lower depending on certain factors; do not assume that a gap of 5.5 to 7 times will lead to a lifting strength stomp in every conceivable situation.

• To restate, this would only apply if the characters in question are still within the same ballpark in Attack Potency, as agreed upon in this staff thread. Characters with a greater Lifting Strength, but with a notably lower Attack Potency, would be incapable of inflicting physical damage through these holds, though restraining and choking could still be effective depending on the matchup.
• Technique can greatly reduce the lifting strength necessary through leverage and body weight application. So characters that demonstrate skill or knowledge in proficient neck snapping (such as certain assassins, martial artists) should be given more leniency on LS differences in their favour during VS matchups.
• This gap's use is restricted solely to comparing pre-existing statistics already approved and indexed on profiles in versus threads to determine if one character can viably stomp another via lifting strength in a matchup. The gap never applies when analyzing the power level of in-universe feats of that with stomping other characters under any circumstances, as using it as a multiplier for powerscaling purposes constitutes Calc Stacking regardless of whether it occurs in indexing or matchup debates.

 

[Armorchompy]

I don't think 5-7 is correct either, if I had to guess a smaller gap would be enough to be nearly entirely impossible to overpower, something like 3x. There's also a question of relative size, a 50 meter tall character can be 20 times stronger than a 50 cm one and still struggle to restrain them because their individual fingers won't be able to match the smaller character's whole body strength. Actual skill in grappling is very relevant too.

 

[Dalesean027]

I don't think 5-7 is correct either, if I had to guess a smaller gap would be enough to be nearly entirely impossible to overpower, something like 3x. There's also a question of relative size, a 50 meter tall character can be 20 times stronger than a 50 cm one and still struggle to restrain them because their individual fingers won't be able to match the smaller character's whole body strength. Actual skill in grappling is very relevant too.

So maybe have a note that this would simply just provide a baseline and that with this sort of thing the context of when it is applicable does matter to various factor like individual skill in grappling/restraints and also includes factors like character size for reasonings you gave as a example

 

[Qawsedf234]

Maybe we make the note this then

As a general rule of thumb, a character with a lifting strength at least three times greater than their opponent would likely be capable of winning any type of grappling bout with their enemy. This advantage can allow them to bind their enemy, break limbs, tear muscles, and even possibly rip off limbs if the disparity is wide enough. Having said that, this baseline should not be considered universal conclusion. For example, a giant character that's 10 meters tall with a lifting strength three times greater than a character only 10 centimeters tall is going to be incapable of using their full strength against their opponent due to the size disparity. A character notably more skilled in martial arts may be able to outgrapple a character somewhat stronger than they are. Characters without flight or leverage abilities may still be overpowered if their opponent moves them to an environment they're incapable of exerting themselves in.

Then we add the bullet points underneath it

As an important clarification, even with a lifting strength advantage, the characters in question still needs to be within the same ballpark in Attack Potency as their opponent to inflict damage; as agreed upon in this staff thread. Characters with a greater Lifting Strength, but with a notably lower Attack Potency, would be incapable of inflicting physical damage through the mentioned holds, breaks, or tearing actions. Though restraining and choking could still be effective depending on the matchup, but with the risk of the character possibly exposing themselves to a much more powerful enemy.

As mentioned before, technique can greatly reduce the lifting strength necessary to harm another through leverage and body weight application. So characters that demonstrate skill or knowledge in relevant techniques should be capable of dealing harm to their opponent even with only comparable Lifting Strength, if they are capable of securing proper leverage. As such they should be given more leniency on LS differences in their favour during VS matchups.

This gap's use is restricted solely to comparing pre-existing statistics already approved and indexed on profiles in versus threads to determine if one character can viably stomp another via lifting strength in a matchup. The gap never applies when analyzing the power level of in-universe feats of that with stomping other characters under any circumstances, as using it as a multiplier for powerscaling purposes constitutes Calc Stacking regardless of whether it occurs in indexing or matchup debates.

 

[Dalesean027]

Yep that sounds reasonable enough to me

 

[Armorchompy]

Seems fine, but I wouldn't specifically list out neck snapping as the technique thing, more like

"As mentioned before, technique can greatly reduce the lifting strength necessary to harm another through leverage and body weight application. So characters that demonstrate skill or knowledge in relevant techniques should be capable of dealing harm to their opponent even with only comparable Lifting Strength, if they are capable of securing proper leverage."

This also covers submissions / joint locks (which are frankly more practical in a fight, though i guess you can snap a neck while in a chokehold) and doesn't make neck snaps sound like they're the one specific example.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Edited your thing with sections 2

 

[StarShooter80]

The additional notes are fine and finding a better baseline for LS stomps would be good of course, but where is the 3 times derived from? Not that I think that it'd be necessarily wrong, but it would be better to have a reference for the exact gap required rather than going off guesswork.