Establishing Gap Needed for LS Stomps

[StarShooter80]

Permission granted by @DarkDragonMedeus

On the one-shot page, it lists that the necessary amount of force needed for an AP stomp is 8x, in regards to humanoid characters:

With a humanoid character, versus threads usually treat the assailant as needing an Attack Potency eight times higher than their opponent's durability to one-shot them. This gap comes from the difference between the upper bound of a Human level character's strength (106 Joules) and the energy needed to fragment an average human skull in one blow (838.5 Joules). Note that this value is only an approximation, and the actual gap can be higher or lower depending on certain factors; do not assume that a gap of 8× will lead to a one-shot in every conceivable situation.

• If one character exhibited his level of attack potency casually and another nearly died while exhibiting his level of durability, or vice versa, the gap between their respective statistics that is needed for a one-shot to happen may be lower or higher than 8×.
• A character can one-shot another without a significant strength advantage by targeting weak points.
• This gap's use is restricted solely to comparing pre-existing statistics already approved and indexed on profiles in versus threads to determine if one character can viably one-shot another in a matchup. The gap never applies when analyzing the power level of in-universe feats of one-shotting other characters under any circumstances, as using it as a multiplier for powerscaling purposes constitutes Calc Stacking regardless of whether it occurs in indexing or matchup debates.

This has been heavily useful for VS threads in determining whether or not a matchup between two characters could have an AP stomp between them. However lifting strength doesn't have a set basis for what would be enough to stomp another character, which should be rectified.

For lifting strength, the necessary amount needed to break/snap a neck is 1000-1250 lbf, with the amount of ibf the upper-bound human is worth being 176.3696 ibf (80 kg), which is an LS difference of 5.66991136795x to 7.08738920993x, so around 5.5 to 7x for simplicity sake. However the snapping neck calc also outlines this:

However, technique can greatly reduce the lifting strength necessary through leverage and body weight application.

So there should be an added note on how characters that demonstrate skill or knowledge in proficient neck snapping (such as certain assassins, martial artists) should be given more leniency on LS differences in their favour.

However it should also be noted that this is only if the characters in question are still within the same ball-park in AP, as agreed upon in a past staff thread, and added to the LS page. Characters with a greater LS, in AP stomps not in their favour, would still need to resort to restraining, grappling and potentially choking.

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Here's a draft for what this addition would look like on the LS page, red is old, green is new:

Lifting Strength in VS Matches​

Lifting Strength is the amount of physical force a character can output, but it is not always proportional to Striking Strength or Attack Potency. Sometimes a character has lifting feats vastly disproportionate to their general physical output, such as a character having extremely impressive Attack Potency feats but no Lifting Strength showings beyond Peak Human levels. In a VS Match Attack Potency is still required to overcome the opponent's Durability. Even if a character seriously outmatches their opponent in Lifting Strength, if their Attack Potency is too low for them to affect the other's Durability in such a fashion they will be unable to crush or sever body parts, break bones or dislocate joints. They will still be capable of restraining, grappling and potentially choking the other character, though such strategies may prove unfeasible with a massive statistical disparity.

With a humanoid character, versus threads usually treat the assailant as needing Lifting Strength around 5.5 to 7 times higher than their opponent's strength to neck-snap/break them. This gap comes from the difference between the upper bound of a Human level character's strength (176.3696 ibf) and the energy needed to break the neck of the average human in move (1000-1250 lbf). Note that this value is only an approximation, and the actual gap can be higher or lower depending on certain factors; do not assume that a gap of 5.5 to 7 times will lead to a lifting strength stomp in every conceivable situation.

• Technique can greatly reduce the lifting strength necessary through leverage and body weight application. So characters that demonstrate skill or knowledge in proficient neck snapping (such as certain assassins, martial artists) should be given more leniency on LS differences in their favour during VS matchups.
• This is only if the characters in question are still within the same ball-park in Attack Potency, as agreed upon in a past staff thread, and stated earlier in this section of the page. Characters with a greater Lifting Strength, in Attack Potency stomps not in their favour, would still need to resort to restraining, grappling and potentially choking instead.

I'm indecisive between having either the 5.5x difference or 7x difference be the fixed norm, I'd lean more with the 7x value since its source is wikipedia instead of a video from an influencer, not that it discredits them more its just that it seems like a more proper source to derive from, though again still iffy, so input from staff on that would be good.

There could also be other ways of determining the necessary force for an LS stomp which this thread will be open to as additional proposal options.

Agree:

Neutral:

Disagree:

 

[Random-Helper323]

Lifting strength doesn't automatically correlate with durability. A character with Class M lifting strength and City level AP isn't breaking the neck of a character with Class 5 lifting strength and Large Planet level durability.

 

[StarShooter80]

Lifting strength doesn't automatically correlate with durability. A character with Class M lifting strength and City level AP isn't breaking the neck of a character with Class 5 lifting strength and Moon level durability.

The thread already covers that this is only if the two characters are within the same Tier/Attack Potency

However it should also be noted that this is only if the characters in question are still within the same ball-park in AP, as agreed upon in a past staff thread, and added to the LS page. Characters with a greater LS, in AP stomps not in their favour, would still need to resort to restraining, grappling and potentially choking.

 

[Random-Helper323]

The thread already covers that this is only if the two characters are within the same Tier/Attack Potency

You'd also need the lifting strength and AP to be in a similar range to each other. Realistically, you're not damaging a Tier 5 character using Class M strength just because that character has lower lifting strength. A character that can tank zettatons of TNT isn't getting killed by a few million tons of pressure.

There is, however, consideration for the ability to reliably control them using that lifting strength.

 

[FinePoint]

There is, however, consideration for the ability to reliably control them using that lifting strength.

I think we can make the argument that 7x LS lets them either snap their neck or easily restrain them, since both would be standard wincons.

Exceptions could be discussed on the versus thread itself.

 

[AguilaR202]

You can’t overcome AP gaps with LS alone, the instant you try to apply that pressure in a direction it becomes measurable in joules AP and it is often so much lower than where character rate ( for reference just being able to lift class M weights for an arms length is barely Building levels worth of work) unless the character derives the former from feats that double as LS with both stats being relatively close to each other.

 

[Random-Helper323]

I think we can make the argument that 7x LS lets them either snap their neck

That lifting strength would need to have a higher yield than their durability as well, not just their own lifting strength.

or easily restrain them, since both would be standard wincons.

Restraining is fine.

 

[FinePoint]

That lifting strength would need to have a higher yield than their durability as well, not just their own lifting strength.

I see your point.

So what ratio of lifting strength to durability would you propose, or do you think it's not possible to standardize?

 

[Qawsedf234]

So what ratio of lifting strength to durability would you propose, or do you think it's not possible to standardize?

With AP under <2x then a 4-5x LS rating (and the right positioning) should let you easily shatter limbs, tear stuff, or snap necks. Once you get into the >5x AP range, your only viable option is choking, and that's only if it's mechanically possible for the character to put enough pressure around the neck to constrict an air passage.

 

[Random-Helper323]

With AP under <2x then a 4-5x LS rating (and the right positioning) should let you easily shatter limbs, tear stuff, or snap necks.
Once you get into the >5x AP range, your only viable option is choking, and that's only if it's mechanically possible for the character to put enough pressure around the neck to constrict an air passage.

The issue is that the lifting strength itself is a yield, and in this case it's being pitted against durability. Having someone with Class K lifting strength try to crush you is similar to having a small building planted on you, so I must raise the issue that a character in Tier 6 isn't going to be crushed by that kind of pressure just because their own lifting strength is Class 5.

 

[Qawsedf234]

The issue is that the lifting strength itself is a yield, and in this case it's being pitted against durability. Having someone with Class K lifting strength try to crush you is similar to having a small building planted on you, so I must raise the issue that a character in Tier 6 isn't going to be crushed by that kind of pressure just because their own lifting strength is Class 5

Damage is done through AP, not lifting strength on the site. Lifting is mostly for grappling holds and chokes.

 

[Random-Helper323]

Damage is done through AP, not lifting strength on the site. Lifting is mostly for grappling holds and chokes.

Yes, but the proposal is a large lifting strength gap allowing for a oneshot. You just said above:

With AP under <2x then a 4-5x LS rating (and the right positioning) should let you easily shatter limbs, tear stuff, or snap necks. Once you get into the >5x AP range, your only viable option is choking, and that's only if it's mechanically possible for the character to put enough pressure around the neck to constrict an air passage.

This seems to be implying that a character with more than half the AP of their opponent but 4-5 or more times their lifting strength should allow for tearing their opponent apart despite the AP gap. Is that what you're saying here, or do you mean a times 2 AP advantage and a time 4-5 LS gap over the opponent? Either way, I'd have to raise some issues about lifting strength being that potent if the opponent has durability that vastly exceeds the sort of pressure that lifting strength would apply.

 

[StarShooter80]

I'd have to raise some issues about lifting strength being that potent if the opponent has durability that vastly exceeds the sort of pressure that lifting strength would apply.

Then how does it make sense with how we rate certain verses? For example Dragon Ball Z characters only have Class M to G LS (soon that's getting downgraded too but that doesn't change the point) and yet they still demonstrate feats of tearing/ripping apart other comparable characters' limbs. So realistically, what's stopping a character from another verse, with comparable AP but Class T LS, from also ripping apart Cell's tail? or Android 16's arms? Another example would be MCU Rescue being able to tear off the arm of a Mark 7 Iron Man armour, yet Rescue only has Class 100 LS and the latter has Small City level durability? Unless we have to say that the lifting strength of all these characters must be proportional to their attack potency, which we don't.

 

[Qawsedf234]

This seems to be implying that a character with more than half the AP of their opponent but 4-5 or more times their lifting strength should allow for tearing their opponent apart despite the AP gap.

The AP gap is saying "If the AP difference between the two is under 2x". For tearing their opponent apart, I didn't intend for that to be read that way. I was talking about tearing muscles. Which is why I mentioned "and the right positioning". It's why an experienced grappler can break limbs or cause muscle tears in another person, because they can get them in a hold that stresses those areas.

Ripping off a limb entirely requires superior AP under our system, not lifting strength. It's why the page mentions that:

In a VS Match Attack Potency is still required to overcome the opponent's Durability. Even if a character seriously outmatches their opponent in Lifting Strength, if their Attack Potency is too low for them to affect the other's Durability in such a fashion they will be unable to crush or sever body parts, break bones or dislocate joints.