Tensura - Some more Speed stuff

[Astral_Trinity439]

I do not agree with the Immeasurable Speed rating, and what EldemadeDityjon said is correct as well.

The previous thread was approved quickly, as usual, just like many other threads, without any actual discussion. That explains everything now.

What I mentioned, along with what EldemadeDityjon and Tatsumi504 pointed out, makes the situation clear. There is no Immeasurable Speed here, nor is there even Infinite Speed.

Even the speed of light was described as something significant for Tensura characters in Volume 23. As for this thread, it has nothing to do with speed in the first place.

I will say this for the last time, and if there's still the same behavior after this, I will report you.

If you have a problem with what is already accepted in literally the last thread, make your own thread. Stop derailing other people's thread with old arguments, mate.

 

[SomebodyData]

Can someone summarize the counterarguments?

The OP seems pretty straightforward (surprisingly straightforward for the verse even) so maybe I'm just not understanding the issue here.

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

Can someone summarize the counterarguments?

The OP seems pretty straightforward (surprisingly straightforward for the verse even) so maybe I'm just not understanding the issue here.

They're basically arguing that it's not speed to begin with but teleportation. This however was already addressed in the counters in the previous thread and speed was accepted.

This section of the counter args from the last thread already clears it:

• It isn't speed but teleportation.

Answer: It is by all means speed. While the table of contents section already explains it, I will summarize it once again. Information Particles have a uniform "movement speed", Teleportation is distinguished even in the Suspended World compared to regular movement, even when it's being done by Digital Lifeforms (like Veldanava) and being done in front of Digital Lifeforms (like Rimuru). There are also countless other reasons explained in the main OP.

 

[Tatsumi504]

I will say this for the last time, and if there's still the same behavior after this, I will report you.

If you have a problem with what is already accepted in literally the last thread, make your own thread. Stop derailing other people's thread with old arguments, mate.

Quite frankly, I don't know what you are waiting for, rather than making threats, go ahead and drop the report. Just because you make threads in parts doesn't mean what was accepted previously cannot be contested especially when the purpose of dropping them in parts is so that you can piggyback off it for greater upgrades in the future. Go ahead and make the report, I'll gladly 1 v however many tensura supporters there are.

Already addressed in the previous thread.

If you have problems with accepted things then make a separate thread for it after this is over. Cuz RN this is irrelevant

Also, the gall to say this when nothing I brought up was ever addressed nor even mentioned in the last thread, a thread that received literally zero opposition so nothing was ever addressed and my points are actually relevant.

To reiterate, the last thread established that:

• Information particles aren't teleporting
• Information particles transmit information with zero time lag thus, infinite speed

My contentions lie in:

• Equating the transmission of information to the movement speed of information particles when both are inherently not the same
• BDE 1 nature of information particles hence speed isn't applicable to the rate at which they transmit information.

Not once do I claim they are teleporting, neither did I contest the zero time lag. At the same time I agree that information particles do in fact have a constant movement speed but it is below the speed of light at worst or at the speed of light at best. Now you can choose to either keep making empty threats or address the opposition. If a separate thread is needed to remove the infinite speed rating too, someone will get to it eventually but don't go spreading lies about what was and what wasn't addressed especially not when this community still hasn't given up its habit of cropping scans that don't fit in with the agenda.
Scan from previous thread verbatim

It feels like the “information particles” that should be at different coordinates are transferring “information” between each other with zero time lag.

Regardless of how much distance there is, if they are “information particles” existing within the recognizable space, then the time lag is zero. In other words, “information particles” are transcending space time. Our conversation as well is established by utilizing the information transfer between these “information particles.”

Then, how can we move? Could it be that this…?

《If it is a spiritual lifeform, then by transforming all matter into “information particles,” it is reaching (becoming) an information lifeform (Digital Nature), perhaps.》
V19C4

Meanwhile, one line directly above it

Then why, one might ask, do 'information particles' appear to exceed the speed of light?
Well, it's not that their speed is faster.
It feels like 'information particles,' which should exist in separate coordinates, are transferring "information" to one another with zero time delay. Regardless of the distance between them, as long as the 'information particles' exist within a perceptible space, the transfer happens instantaneously. In other words, 'information particles' transcend spacetime.

Free will I guess

 

[Tatsumi504]

Can someone summarize the counterarguments?

The OP seems pretty straightforward (surprisingly straightforward for the verse even) so maybe I'm just not understanding the issue here.

My contentions lie in:

• Equating the transmission of information to the movement speed of information particles when both are inherently not the same thing
• BDE 1 nature of information particles hence speed isn't applicable to the rate at which they transmit information.

Not once do I claim they are teleporting, neither did I contest the zero time lag. At the same time I agree that information particles do in fact have a constant movement speed but it is below the speed of light at worst or at the speed of light at best. Now you can choose to either keep making empty threats or address the opposition. If a separate thread is needed to remove the infinite speed rating too, someone will get to it eventually but don't go spreading lies about what was and what wasn't addressed especially not when this community still hasn't given up its habit of cropping scans that don't fit in with the agenda.
Scan from previous thread verbatim

It feels like the “information particles” that should be at different coordinates are transferring “information” between each other with zero time lag.

Regardless of how much distance there is, if they are “information particles” existing within the recognizable space, then the time lag is zero. In other words, “information particles” are transcending space time. Our conversation as well is established by utilizing the information transfer between these “information particles.”

Then, how can we move? Could it be that this…?

《If it is a spiritual lifeform, then by transforming all matter into “information particles,” it is reaching (becoming) an information lifeform (Digital Nature), perhaps.》
V19C4

Meanwhile, one line directly above it

Then why, one might ask, do 'information particles' appear to exceed the speed of light?
Well, it's not that their speed is faster.
It feels like 'information particles,' which should exist in separate coordinates, are transferring "information" to one another with zero time delay. Regardless of the distance between them, as long as the 'information particles' exist within a perceptible space, the transfer happens instantaneously. In other words, 'information particles' transcend spacetime.

Both infinite and immeasurable speed falls on its head considering the series itself confirms its not speed, they are not even faster than light and it only appears like they are because of Beyond Dimensional Existence

 

[ReasonedZebra834]

Basicamente, eles estão argumentando que não se trata de velocidade, mas sim de teletransporte. No entanto, isso já foi abordado nas respostas do tópico anterior , e a questão da velocidade foi aceita.

Esta seção dos argumentos do contador do tópico anterior já foi limpa:

Sinceramente, não sei o que você está esperando. Em vez de fazer ameaças, faça uma denúncia. Só porque você criou descrições em partes não significa que o que foi aceito anteriormente não possa ser contestado, especialmente quando o objetivo de publicá-los em partes é justamente para que você possa se aproveitar disso para obter melhorias maiores no futuro. Faça a denúncia, tenho o maior prazer em enfrentar quantos apoiadores do Tensura aparecem.


Além disso, que audácia dizer isso quando nada do que eu levantei foi abordado ou considerado considerado no tópico anterior, um tópico que não recebeu nenhuma oposição, então nada foi abordado e meus pontos são realmente relevantes.

Para reiterar, o último tópico localizado que:

• Partículas de informação não estão sendo teletransportadas.
• Partículas de informação transmitem informações com atraso zero, portanto, em velocidade infinita.

Minhas considerações são as seguintes:

• Equipar a transmissão de informações à velocidade de movimento das partículas de informação quando ambas são parcialmente diferentes é um erro.
• BDE 1 é a natureza das partículas de informação, portanto a velocidade não se aplica à taxa na qual elas transmitem informações.

Em nenhum momento afirmei que eles estão se teletransportando, nem contestei a ausência de atraso temporal. Ao mesmo tempo, concordo que as partículas de informação de fato possuem uma velocidade de movimento constante, mas, na pior das hipóteses, ela é inferior à velocidade da luz, e na melhor, igual à velocidade da luz. Agora você pode optar por continuar fazendo ameaças vazias ou abordar a oposição. Se for necessário criar um tópico separado para remover também a classificação de velocidade infinita, alguém acabará fazendo isso, mas não espalhe mentiras sobre o que foi ou não abordado, especialmente agora que esta comunidade ainda não abandonou o hábito de recortar varreduras que não se encaixaram na agenda.
Transcreva literalmente da conversa anterior.

Entretanto, uma linha diretamente acima dela

Acho que é livre arbítrio.

Sinceramente, não sei o que você está esperando. Em vez de fazer ameaças, faça uma denúncia. Só porque você criou descrições em partes não significa que o que foi aceito anteriormente não possa ser contestado, especialmente quando o objetivo de publicá-los em partes é justamente para que você possa se aproveitar disso para obter melhorias maiores no futuro. Faça a denúncia, tenho o maior prazer em enfrentar quantos apoiadores do Tensura aparecem.


Além disso, que audácia dizer isso quando nada do que eu levantei foi abordado ou considerado considerado no tópico anterior, um tópico que não recebeu nenhuma oposição, então nada foi abordado e meus pontos são realmente relevantes.

Para reiterar, o último tópico localizado que:

• Partículas de informação não estão sendo teletransportadas.
• Partículas de informação transmitem informações com atraso zero, portanto, em velocidade infinita.

Minhas considerações são as seguintes:

• Equipar a transmissão de informações à velocidade de movimento das partículas de informação quando ambas são parcialmente diferentes é um erro.
• BDE 1 é a natureza das partículas de informação, portanto a velocidade não se aplica à taxa na qual elas transmitem informações.

Em nenhum momento afirmei que eles estão se teletransportando, nem contestei a ausência de atraso temporal. Ao mesmo tempo, concordo que as partículas de informação de fato possuem uma velocidade de movimento constante, mas, na pior das hipóteses, ela é inferior à velocidade da luz, e na melhor, igual à velocidade da luz. Agora você pode optar por continuar fazendo ameaças vazias ou abordar a oposição. Se for necessário criar um tópico separado para remover também a classificação de velocidade infinita, alguém acabará fazendo isso, mas não espalhe mentiras sobre o que foi ou não abordado, especialmente agora que esta comunidade ainda não abandonou o hábito de recortar varreduras que não se encaixaram na agenda.
Transcreva literalmente da conversa anterior.

Entretanto, uma linha diretamente acima dela

Acho que é livre arbítrio.

Sinceramente, não sei o que você está esperando. Em vez de fazer ameaças, faça uma denúncia. Só porque você criou descrições em partes não significa que o que foi aceito anteriormente não possa ser contestado, especialmente quando o objetivo de publicá-los em partes é justamente para que você possa se aproveitar disso para obter melhorias maiores no futuro. Faça a denúncia, tenho o maior prazer em enfrentar quantos apoiadores do Tensura aparecem.


Além disso, que audácia dizer isso quando nada do que eu levantei foi abordado ou considerado considerado no tópico anterior, um tópico que não recebeu nenhuma oposição, então nada foi abordado e meus pontos são realmente relevantes.

Para reiterar, o último tópico localizado que:

• Partículas de informação não estão sendo teletransportadas.
• Partículas de informação transmitem informações com atraso zero, portanto, em velocidade infinita.

Minhas considerações são as seguintes:

• Equipar a transmissão de informações à velocidade de movimento das partículas de informação quando ambas são parcialmente diferentes é um erro.
• BDE 1 é a natureza das partículas de informação, portanto a velocidade não se aplica à taxa na qual elas transmitem informações.

Em nenhum momento afirmei que eles estão se teletransportando, nem contestei a ausência de atraso temporal. Ao mesmo tempo, concordo que as partículas de informação de fato possuem uma velocidade de movimento constante, mas, na pior das hipóteses, ela é inferior à velocidade da luz, e na melhor, igual à velocidade da luz. Agora você pode optar por continuar fazendo ameaças vazias ou abordar a oposição. Se for necessário criar um tópico separado para remover também a classificação de velocidade infinita, alguém acabará fazendo isso, mas não espalhe mentiras sobre o que foi ou não abordado, especialmente agora que esta comunidade ainda não abandonou o hábito de recortar varreduras que não se encaixaram na agenda.
Transcreva literalmente da conversa anterior.

Entretanto, uma linha diretamente acima dela

Acho que é livre arbitrário.Isso é contraditório.

Sinceramente, não sei o que você está esperando. Em vez de fazer ameaças, faça a denúncia. Só porque você cria tópicos em partes não significa que o que foi aceito anteriormente não possa ser contestado, especialmente quando o objetivo de publicá-los em partes é justamente para que você possa se aproveitar disso para obter melhorias maiores no futuro. Faça a denúncia, terei o maior prazer em enfrentar quantos apoiadores do Tensura aparecerem.


Além disso, que audácia dizer isso quando nada do que eu levantei foi abordado ou sequer mencionado no tópico anterior, um tópico que não recebeu nenhuma oposição, então nada foi abordado e meus pontos são realmente relevantes.

Para reiterar, o último tópico estabeleceu que:

• Partículas de informação não estão se teletransportando.
• Partículas de informação transmitem informações com atraso zero, portanto, em velocidade infinita.

Minhas alegações são as seguintes:

• Equiparar a transmissão de informações à velocidade de movimento das partículas de informação quando ambas são inerentemente diferentes é um erro.
• BDE 1 é a natureza das partículas de informação, portanto a velocidade não se aplica à taxa na qual elas transmitem informações.

Em nenhum momento afirmei que eles estão se teletransportando, nem contestei a ausência de atraso temporal. Ao mesmo tempo, concordo que as partículas de informação de fato possuem uma velocidade de movimento constante, mas, na pior das hipóteses, ela é inferior à velocidade da luz, e na melhor, igual à velocidade da luz. Agora você pode optar por continuar fazendo ameaças vazias ou abordar a oposição. Se for necessário criar um tópico separado para remover também a classificação de velocidade infinita, alguém acabará fazendo isso, mas não espalhe mentiras sobre o que foi ou não abordado, especialmente agora que esta comunidade ainda não abandonou o hábito de recortar scans que não se encaixam na agenda.
Transcreva literalmente da conversa anterior.

Entretanto, uma linha diretamente acima dela

Acho que é livre arbítrio.

That contradicts what you said.

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

Quite frankly, I don't know what you are waiting for, rather than making threats, go ahead and drop the report. Just because you make threads in parts doesn't mean what was accepted previously cannot be contested especially when the purpose of dropping them in parts is so that you can piggyback off it for greater upgrades in the future. Go ahead and make the report, I'll gladly 1 v however many tensura supporters there are.

Said user is known for being troublesome to deal with due to various reasons; I ought to give a warning before I make a report.

Also, the gall to say this when nothing I brought up was ever addressed nor even mentioned in the last thread, a thread that received literally zero opposition so nothing was ever addressed and my points are actually relevant.

Then go make a thread. Who's stopping you. At least don't be an asshole that keeps derailing other people's threads. This thread works on the assumption that infinite speed is accepted. If that is a problem then go make a thread to downgrade it.

My contentions lie in:

• Equating the transmission of information to the movement speed of information particles when both are inherently not the same

This is not even nearly relevant?
Information particles are what transfer info and they have a set speed. DLFs being made of those particles will have the same speed.

• BDE 1 nature of information particles hence speed isn't applicable to the rate at which they transmit information.

BDE1 isn't even a contention here, why are you larping standards. BDE1 doesn't trace a math in history, doesn't mean they cannot move to begin with.

Beyond-Dimensional Existence is the state of existing beyond dimensions. In the majority of cases, this will be referring to characters who are timeless and spaceless. That is to say: A "beyond-dimensional" character does not take up any volume whatsoever, nor does it occupy a position in spacetime, nor does its continued existence trace a path through it. They are, as such, much different from 0-dimensional characters, who simply have no extension in any dimension and still occupy spatial location.

The bolded part is linked to the world-line page (history).

Type 1: Characters who lack spatiotemporal features entirely, while not actually being superior to them in nature. They are simply ontologically different from any dimensional construct, but can ultimately still be comparable to dimension-bound entities in terms of raw power.

Their nature is space-less and time-less, doesn't stop them from producing results that are comparable to dimension-bound entities.

By your logic they can't have speed at all, they'd be immobile, and said argument is kinda hella bad. They clearly move from one point to another, there simply isn't a path traced as a result of that action. Unless, if we give BDE1 characters a special speed rating or something, do point that out.

Not once do I claim they are teleporting, neither did I contest the zero time lag. At the same time I agree that information particles do in fact have a constant movement speed but it is below the speed of light at worst or at the speed of light at best. Now you can choose to either keep making empty threats or address the opposition. If a separate thread is needed to remove the infinite speed rating too, someone will get to it eventually but don't go spreading lies about what was and what wasn't addressed especially not when this community still hasn't given up its habit of cropping scans that don't fit in with the agenda.
Scan from previous thread verbatim

Contradicting yourself here again. You claim they are below or at best the speed of light but also claim they can't have imm speed cuz of... being bde1. Which is unbound by not just time but also space.

I do admit I mistook your argument cuz I looked at it while being busy in something else too, but regardless, my point still stands. And if someone is gonna make a downgrade thread, wait for that instead of derailing other guys' thread.

Snip

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Can someone summarize the counterarguments?

The OP seems pretty straightforward (surprisingly straightforward for the verse even) so maybe I'm just not understanding the issue here.

A line saying "any point in time" taken out of context is nowhere near straightforward. The other scans in the OP don't even say anything about speed, if you actually checked them.

I asked for the Volume 23 translation and I'll get back to you on that when available, where Rimuru is clearly shown questioning whether FTL speed is even possible for the characters mentioned above. That literally contradicts these vague, out of context statements that you think support immeasurable or infinite speed, which you accepted in the previous thread.

They're basically arguing that it's not speed to begin with but teleportation. This however was already addressed in the counters in the previous thread and speed was accepted.

This section of the counter args from the last thread already clears it:

Stop lying and trying to mislead staffs, dude. I never once said anything about teleportation in this thread. Feel free to show me where I said that. When you say "they're" staffs will think all of the opposition's are arguing same thing.

I argued that they do not have the perception speed to perceive even below light speed attacks, and I also brought up the Volume 23 statement, which I'm still waiting to see translated. I hope I get that before this thread concludes; otherwise, I'll make a new thread about it.

 

[Explosion-Proximity]

Honestly this is going nowhere.
The opposers should make a thread for their "debunk" and leave this thread alone, this is becoming unnecessarily long.

 

[Hecky2222]

Quite frankly, I don't know what you are waiting for, rather than making threats, go ahead and drop the report. Just because you make threads in parts doesn't mean what was accepted previously cannot be contested especially when the purpose of dropping them in parts is so that you can piggyback off it for greater upgrades in the future. Go ahead and make the report, I'll gladly 1 v however many tensura supporters there are.

If only ID threads were this, not staff js warning Kuma over nothing

 

[ReasonedZebra834]

Uma frase que diz "qualquer ponto no tempo", tirada de contexto, está longe de ser direta. Os outros scans na postagem original nem sequer mencionam velocidade, se você os conferisse.

Solicitei a tradução do Volume 23 e entrarei em contato assim que estiver disponível, onde Rimuru questiona claramente se a velocidade FTL é sequer possível para os personagens mencionados acima. Isso contradiz completamente essas afirmações vagas e fora de contexto que você considera como suporte para velocidade imensurável ou infinita, as quais você aceitou no tópico anterior.

Pare de mentir e tentar enganar a equipe, cara. Eu nunca mencionei nada sobre teletransporte neste tópico. Fique à vontade para me mostrar onde eu disse isso. Quando você diz "eles são", a equipe vai achar que toda a oposição está argumentando a mesma coisa.

Argumentei que eles não possuem velocidade de percepção suficiente para perceber ataques nem mesmo abaixo da velocidade da luz, e também mencionei a declaração do Volume 23, cuja tradução ainda aguardo. Espero recebê-la antes do término deste tópico; caso contrário, criarei um novo tópico sobre o assunto.

Do you have it in Japanese?

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

I was asked to comment here.

BDE Type 1 doesn't automatically preclude Immeasurable Speed. While the cause (Information Particles and Information) may operate independently of time and space, the effect produced through the transmission of information is still non-linear.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Do you have it in Japanese?

『もう会えなくなるね、サヨウナラ』

どう対処すべきか戸惑っていたら俺の居た地点を、横薙ぎの一閃が通り過ぎていった。

危険を察知して回避しつつ、その正体を確認する。

それは、数本の触手だった。

危なかった。油断していた訳ではないが、今までとは別格の速さだ。

超光速――マジで、光より速かったのだ。

もしかすると“停止世界”って、物理法則が通用しないから超光速が可能なのか？

いや、そもそも“情報子”の速度は一定だから、こんな現象が可能だとは思わなかった。

反応出来た自分を褒めてあげたい――などと自画自賛しつつ、ルヴェルジェの猛攻に対処していく。

正面に、巨体はそのまま在る。

その尻尾から分離した触手だけが、俺を追尾するように攻撃を仕掛けていた。

それだけなら何とかなるのだが、悪寒を覚えてルヴェルジェの巨体に目を向ける。

猛烈な違和感。

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

A line saying "any point in time" taken out of context is nowhere near straightforward. The other scans in the OP don't even say anything about speed, if you actually checked them.

What do you think it means then? "can transfer info to any point in time" and "taken out of context"... oh how I'd love to know the correct context of "are able to transmit information to any point in time".

I asked for the Volume 23 translation and I'll get back to you on that when available, where Rimuru is clearly shown questioning whether FTL speed is even possible for the characters mentioned above. That literally contradicts these vague, out of context statements that you think support immeasurable or infinite speed, which you accepted in the previous thread.

Sure. Before you do that, I'll counter it in advance. SoL isn't constant in tensura:

I prided myself on being reasonably intelligent, but even when I was told about conceptual topics such as the speed of light is not constant or time is not immutable, the kind of things that make you want to say, Isn't that just your opinion?, I couldn't even understand how such things were related to abilities.

So it can be vsbw's definition of SoL (300,000 km/s), or it can be higher. So "not faster than light/as fast as light" is not even an anti-feat lol

Stop lying and trying to mislead staffs, dude. I never once said anything about teleportation in this thread. Feel free to show me where I said that. When you say "they're" staffs will think all of the opposition's are arguing same thing.

I argued that they do not have the perception speed to perceive even below light speed attacks, and I also brought up the Volume 23 statement, which I'm still waiting to see translated. I hope I get that before this thread concludes; otherwise, I'll make a new thread about it.

I quite literally said this above and you're basically repeating what tatsumi said without even reading my response...

I do admit I mistook your argument cuz I looked at it while being busy in something else too

So yes, this is my bad, but no need to repeat the exact same thing twice...

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

BDE Type 1 doesn't automatically preclude Immeasurable Speed. While the cause (Information Particles and Information) may operate independently of time and space, the effect produced through the transmission of information is still non-linear.

Can we take this as an Agreement?

Also, everyone, let's not clog the thread. If you don't bring in any actual arguments, don't comment, it just clogs the thread.... And yes, I am talking to both sides.

 

[Azertyhuuh]

This is what the text says here in Volume 23, and as everyone knows, Volume 23 is the final volume, so Rimuru was essentially at or near his peak level here.

"We won't be able to meet again. Goodbye."

As I hesitated, unsure of how to deal with the situation, a horizontal slash swept through the spot where I had been standing.

Sensing the danger, I dodged it and then identified what it was.

It was several tentacles.

That was close. It wasn't that I had let my guard down, but their speed was on a completely different level from anything before.

Faster than light—seriously, they were actually moving faster than light.

Could it be that, because the "Stopped World" is a place where the laws of physics do not apply, faster-than-light movement is possible there?

No, to begin with, since the speed of the "information particles" is constant, I never thought a phenomenon like this could occur.

I would like to praise myself for being able to react to it—while congratulating myself in that manner, I continued dealing with Ruverjer's relentless assault.

Directly ahead, the giant body remained where it was.
Only the tentacles that had separated from its tail were launching attacks, tracking me as if in pursuit.

If that were all, I could somehow manage it, but a chill ran down my spine, causing me to turn my gaze toward Ruverjer's massive body.

An overwhelming sense of unease.

This is not an official translation, and a translation of the text has already been requested here, so we will wait for the official translation. However, I am confident that the official translation will not differ from this one at all, because this context is precisely what will settle the debate here.

This context comes from Volume 23 itself, the final volume, and I believe it is Rimuru's own statement. It directly contradicts all of the current speed ratings.

I will repeat myself: this is not an official translation, so it cannot be used at the moment. I do not know whether we can wait for the official translation here, and then continue this discussion afterward.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

What do you think it means then? "can transfer information to any point in time" and "taken out of context"... oh how I'd love to know the correct context of "are able to transmit information to any point in time".

Scan in the OP was taken by slime reader correct me.

Well, Chloe had come, but I still remained motionless. In other words, it was impossible to reply to her—

«No problem. It turns out that information particles are unaffected by time or space and can transmit information to any point in time. This means that they can transmit thoughts even in a suspended world .»

Is that so? The conversation between me and Ciel-san was happening instantly. However, the voice I heard from Chloe had a slight time difference. The reason for this remained unknown though, right? If the information particle was unaffected by time and space, then wouldn't it make sense that communication would be instantaneous as well?

«I am part of Master, so I am not affected by time at all. However, if you want to know what's going on outside in the suspended world, an information particle needs to be flown out to grasp the information of the surroundings—»

Hmm, that's hard to explain. In short, the information particle is not affected by space-time, so it can move in any situation . That's why, by interfering with the information particle as a substitute for magicules, you can maintain your vision and transmit your thoughts. In other words, interfering with the information particle was not enough to move in this situation. Chloe seemed to be talking normally, but I guess we shouldn't confuse her with the real world.

"Any point in time" here is the author's way of conveying how information can function even when time is stopped. It does not literally mean that information can be sent to the past or future, nor that it operates beyond linear time. The statement is simply saying that it can function in any situation, including within a stopped world.

It feels like you don't understand that "any point in time" doesn't have to be interpreted solely through a powerscaling lengths it can also be situational.

《問題ありません。〝情報子〟は時間や空間に影響を受けず、あらゆる時点に情報を伝えられると判明しております。それはつまり、止まった世界の中であっても思念を伝えられるという事なのです》

I also checked the raw text. The particular word に can mean either "at" or "to" depending on the context, especially considering that this is a Slime Reader (MTL) translation. Even the later statements, and the rest of the same paragraph, are discussing the situation itself, which makes "at" fit better than "to" in my opinion.

That said, you're free to ask a Japanese translator for clarification. I'm simply pointing out an alternative meaning that the kanji and grammar can support based on the context.

に - Jisho.org

jisho.org

Sure. Before you do that, I'll counter it in advance. SoL isn't constant in tension:

Light moves approximately at 880,000 times the speed of sound, and Paddler wasn't quite there, but it was beyond close enough. The atmosphere was slowing it down a lot, but it was still moving at over 100,000 times the speed of sound, making it impossible for ordinary humans to even see the cryptid.

Vol 22
We do have a given value for SOL speed in Tensura so it doesn't mean faster than light = infinite or immeasurable speed.

So it can be vsbw's definition of SoL (300,000 km/s), or it can be higher. So "not faster than light/as fast as light" is not even an anti-feat lol

Value used in the verse is very close to vs wiki speed ranging for SOL speed.

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

This is what the text says here in Volume 23, and as everyone knows, Volume 23 is the final volume, so Rimuru was essentially at or near his peak level here.



This is not an official translation, and a translation of the text has already been requested here, so we will wait for the official translation. However, I am confident that the official translation will not differ from this one at all, because this context is precisely what will settle the debate here.

This context comes from Volume 23 itself, the final volume, and I believe it is Rimuru's own statement. It directly contradicts all of the current speed ratings.

I will repeat myself: this is not an official translation, so it cannot be used at the moment. I do not know whether we can wait for the official translation here, and then continue this discussion afterward.

We asked you specifically to stop spamming useless stuff; all translations outside of OTL have been translated by @RaikiKurohane99, an official translator... (I have no idea how many times we need to tell you this for you to understand)

So now stop clogging the thread, we already warned you in this thread, and have asked you 3 times with this one.

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

idk why I can't reply to your post (referring to elde) but here's the translation:

We won't be able to meet anymore, goodbye. While I was bewildered about how I should deal with it, a horizontal slash passed through the location where I was. Detecting the danger and evading it, I confirmed its identity. It was several tentacles. That was dangerous. It's not that I had let my guard down, but its speed was on a completely different level from before. Faster than light seriously, it was faster than light.

Could it be that in the Stopped World, because the laws of physics do not apply, faster than light movement is possible?

No, in the first place, since the speed of information particles is constant, I never thought such a phenomenon could be possible. While praising myself for having been able to react and engaging in a bit of self congratulation I continued dealing with Ruvelje's fierce assault. Directly ahead, the giant body remained there as it was. Only the tentacles that had separated from its tail were launching attacks as if tracking me. If it were only that, I could somehow manage, but feeling a chill, I turned my eyes toward Ruvelje's gigantic body. An intense sense of incongruity.
Translated by Raiki

Still doesn't change anything considering speed of light is not constant, so there's no "it's 300,000 km/s" cap in tensura.

Scan in the OP was taken by slime reader correct me.

Nope. Was done by @RaikiKurohane99 in Dms.

Regardless, they can move in SW cuz they can transmit info to any point in time, which means they can also do it to the point of time they exist in (the very instant they exist in), which is what let's them move in SW.

Well I can ping him to clarify.

Snip

Could you?

This is what the text says here in Volume 23, and as everyone knows, Volume 23 is the final volume, so Rimuru was essentially at or near his peak level here.


This is not an official translation, and a translation of the text has already been requested here, so we will wait for the official translation. However, I am confident that the official translation will not differ from this one at all, because this context is precisely what will settle the debate here.

This context comes from Volume 23 itself, the final volume, and I believe it is Rimuru's own statement. It directly contradicts all of the current speed ratings.

I will repeat myself: this is not an official translation, so it cannot be used at the moment. I do not know whether we can wait for the official translation here, and then continue this discussion afterward.

Do keep in mind the speed of light isn't constant in tensura, so this matters less than a grain of sand lol

 

[Bahaha]

Ill send it here as well,

In Volume 21 where Shuna is receiving information from Ciel who is sending it to her from EOST.

So yeah I agree.

Reminder, Ciel sends information particles from the future to the past in this instance.

 

[Tatsumi504]

Then go make a thread. Who's stopping you. At least don't be an asshole that keeps derailing other people's threads. This thread works on the assumption that infinite speed is accepted. If that is a problem then go make a thread to downgrade it.

You cannot keep asserting that I'm derailing when none of that is happening. Also no, I don't need to downgrade the result of the previous thread in order to contest the current proposal not to mention, "this thread works on the assumption that infinite speed is accepted", you do realize you just proved what I said right? The purpose of splitting it into two threads is piggyback off the previous one otherwise what do you mean that it works on the assumption it has been accepted if not "if the previous one was okay then this one must be too"? You're literally hiding one thread behind another and trying to eliminate any opposition in that manner.

Honestly this is going nowhere.
The opposers should make a thread for their "debunk" and leave this thread alone, this is becoming unnecessarily long.

Case in point

This is not even nearly relevant?
Information particles are what transfer info and they have a set speed. DLFs being made of those particles will have the same speed.

The speed of information particles is constant, the same goes for information transfer between them however, the two aren't mutually inclusive. Data transfer through radio waves doesn't mean the physical movement of anything that emits radio waves is at the speed of light. It's as simple as that

BDE1 isn't even a contention here, why are you larping standards. BDE1 doesn't trace a math in history, doesn't mean they cannot move to begin with.

It never was a contention however, precisely because they are unhindered by and unfettered from space and time to an extent, information doesn't need to pass through space or any media for that matter in order to be transmitted neither is there any time taken in the transmission of said information

By your logic they can't have speed at all, they'd be immobile, and said argument is kinda hella bad. They clearly move from one point to another, there simply isn't a path traced as a result of that action. Unless, if we give BDE1 characters a special speed rating or something, do point that out.

My logic has zero implications of this as their BDE is more about them being unbound from space and time so it doesn't factor into the rate of information transfer. BDE 1 characters are simply put immune to conventional spatial and time manipulation and quite frankly, I'm starting to have doubts if BDE 1 should even remain given that matter is composed of information particles and they have mass meanwhile, BDE 1 is supposed to lack spatio-temporal features.

Anyway, none of this rules out what I said, they are simply not fettered by constraints such as space and time so both distance and time aren't applicable to their information transfer (given they cannot physically travel through time on their own).

I do admit I mistook your argument cuz I looked at it while being busy in something else too, but regardless, my point still stands. And if someone is gonna make a downgrade thread, wait for that instead of derailing other guys' thread.

My point still stands with what I said above. Truthfully, the point on BDE isn't only my idea, I remember @Reiner04 came to the same conclusion in one of the past threads. I'd be here larping with you if it weren't for this

Then why, one might ask, do 'information particles' appear to exceed the speed of light?
Well, it's not that their speed is faster.
It feels like 'information particles,' which should exist in separate coordinates, are transferring "information" to one another with zero time delay. Regardless of the distance between them, as long as the 'information particles' exist within a perceptible space, the transfer happens instantaneously. In other words, 'information particles' transcend spacetime.

The main character of the series with the supergenius supercomputer ability himself confirms it isn't a matter of speed. It just merely appears that way. So far, there has been nothing brought forward scans, context or otherwise to refute this.

 

[Azertyhuuh]

idk why I can't reply to your post (referring to elde) but here's the translation:


Still doesn't change anything considering speed of light is not constant, so there's no "it's 300,000 km/s" cap in tensura.

Nope. Was done by @RaikiKurohane99 in Dms.

Regardless, they can move in SW cuz they can transmit info to any point in time, which means they can also do it to the point of time they exist in (the very instant they exist in), which is what let's them move in SW.

Well I can ping him to clarify.

Could you?

Do keep in mind the speed of light isn't constant in tensura, so this matters less than a grain of sand lol

This is my last comment here, because I’m honestly tired. I already know that after all this effort, in the end, that group of staff will just agree as usual.

As I told you, Rimuru himself admitted that the speed of light is the maximum speed he has dealt with up to this point. This is something Rimuru himself stated, and the text implies that the speed of light is the highest speed any character in Tensura can reach outside all spatial and temporal constraints.

Even though Rimuru himself acknowledged this, you are trying to ignore it and create interpretations to justify a text that is already clear and has no ambiguity. If Rimuru heard you here saying that his speed is “immeasurable,” he himself would be surprised and would not believe where you got that from, because he is personally completely surprised even by the speed of light. So what if you told him about infinite speed or immeasurable speed? I think Rimuru himself would be shocked to death.

We won't be able to meet anymore, goodbye. While I was bewildered about how I should deal with it, a horizontal slash passed through the location where I was. Detecting the danger and evading it, I confirmed its identity. It was several tentacles. That was dangerous. It's not that I had let my guard down, but its speed was on a completely different level from before. Faster than light seriously, it was faster than light.

Could it be that in the Stopped World, because the laws of physics do not apply, faster than light movement is possible?

No, in the first place, since the speed of information particles is constant, I never thought such a phenomenon could be possible. While praising myself for having been able to react and engaging in a bit of self congratulation I continued dealing with Ruvelje's fierce assault. Directly ahead, the giant body remained there as it was. Only the tentacles that had separated from its tail were launching attacks as if tracking me. If it were only that, I could somehow manage, but feeling a chill, I turned my eyes toward Ruvelje's gigantic body. An intense sense of incongruity.

 

[Tatsumi504]

So it can be vsbw's definition of SoL (300,000 km/s), or it can be higher. So "not faster than light/as fast as light" is not even an anti-feat lol

Talk about a double edged sword. On the one hand, you may be paving a way to immeasurable speed by eliminating anti-feats but on the other hand, you bring into question the validity of all SoL statements in the verse and end up downgrading them so I'll just leave you withthe advice of not going down this route, though the choice is ultimately yours.

P.S: The speed of light is actually not constant. In a vacuum it's 300,000,000 m/s, in air it's 299,792,458 m/s, in water it's about 225,000,000 m/s. Also, he literally said "conceptual topics".

 

[Ultimuru]

However, I am confident that the official translation will not differ from this one at all

Hoo boy. You have no idea how Tensura OTL can sometimes differ from what was said in raws...

 

[Tatsumi504]

More evidence to the pile from elde

Is that so? The conversation between me and Ciel-san was happening instantly. However, the voice I heard from Chloe had a slight time difference. The reason for this remained unknown though, right? If the information particle was unaffected by time and space, then wouldn't it make sense that communication would be instantaneous as well?

«I am part of Master, so I am not affected by time at all. However, if you want to know what's going on outside in the suspended world, an information particle needs to be flown out to grasp the information of the surroundings—»

There's time taken in sending out an infon (I'll be calling it that from now on) to observe the surrounding and recalling it to obtain that data which proves what I have been saying. Information transfer= instantaneous, movement of infon= not instantaneous therefore, rate of information transfer =/= physical movement speed of infons.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

Sure. Before you do that, I'll counter it in advance. SoL isn't constant in tensura:

This isn't necessarily an agreement or disagreement, but I think it should be clarified that, in physics, the speed of light in a vacuum is constant. However, light travels more slowly when passing through material, so its speed can vary depending on the medium.

Based on what Eldemade posted, I believe the statement that the speed of light is not constant refers to this phenomenon, since that distinction is stated directly.

Light moves approximately at 880,000 times the speed of sound, and Paddler wasn't quite there, but it was beyond close enough. The atmosphere was slowing it down a lot, but it was still moving at over 100,000 times the speed of sound, making it impossible for ordinary humans to even see the cryptid.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

This isn't necessarily an agreement or disagreement, but I think it should be clarified that, in physics, the speed of light in a vacuum is constant. However, light travels more slowly when passing through material, so its speed can vary depending on the medium.

Based on what Eldemade posted, I believe the statement that the speed of light is not constant refers to this phenomenon, since that distinction is stated directly.

Thank you spaceman for still following the thread. Since you are reading this I'm gonna explain more stuff.

"Detecting the danger and evading it, I confirmed its identity. It was several tentacles. That was dangerous. It's not that I had let my guard down, but its speed was on a completely different level from before. Faster than light—seriously, it was faster than light.

Could it be that in the Stopped World, because the laws of physics do not apply, faster-than-light movement is possible?

No, in the first place, since the speed of information particles is constant, I never thought such a phenomenon could be possible. While praising myself for having been able to react and engaging in a bit of self-congratulation, I continued dealing with Ruvelje's fierce assault."

You can see where Rimuru talks about how this FTL-speed phenomenon shouldn't be possible since the speed of Information Particles is constant, showing that Information Particles either travel at SOL or below that speed. He first theorizes that it may be possible because the laws of physics do not exist in the Stopped World, but then immediately rejects that idea by saying it shouldn't be possible since Information Particles' speed is constant. This shows that Rimuru has never seen Information Particles traveling at FTL speeds. That literally debunks the whole infinite or immeasurable speed interpretation for Information Particles that OP is trying to argue.

I also need to point out:

"Then why, one might ask, do 'information particles' appear to exceed the speed of light?

Well, it's not that their speed is faster.

It feels like 'information particles,' which should exist in separate coordinates, are transferring 'information' to one another with zero time delay. Regardless of the distance between them, as long as the 'information particles' exist within a perceptible space, the transfer happens instantaneously. In other words, 'information particles' transcend spacetime."

In this scan, Rimuru is literally talking about how Information Particles 'appear' to exceed the speed of light. You can also read it as look like they are exceeding SOL speed. He then immediately corrects that interpretation by saying that it is not because their speed is faster. Instead, he says it feels like that is the case. He is explaining why their constant speed creates the appearance of faster than light transmission, not that they are literally traveling beyond SOL speed. Also, the "zero time delay" statement is being taken out of context.

"Well, Chloe had come, but I still remained motionless. In other words, it was impossible to reply to her—

«No problem. It turns out that information particles are unaffected by time or space and can transmit information to any point in time. This means that they can transmit thoughts even in a suspended world.»

Is that so? The conversation between me and Ciel-san was happening instantly. However, the voice I heard from Chloe had a slight time difference. The reason for this remained unknown, though, right? If the information particle was unaffected by time and space, then wouldn't it make sense that communication would be instantaneous as well?

«I am part of Master, so I am not affected by time at all. However, if you want to know what's going on outside in the suspended world, an information particle needs to be flown out to grasp the information of the surroundings—»

Hmm, that's hard to explain. In short, the information particle is not affected by spacetime, so it can move in any situation. That's why, by interfering with the information particle as a substitute for magicules, you can maintain your vision and transmit your thoughts. In other words, interfering with the information particle was not enough to move in this situation. Chloe seemed to be talking normally, but I guess we shouldn't confuse her situation with the real world."

Check this scan where a time delay was occurring because Rimuru did not yet have full control over Information Particles while time was stopped, and Ciel had to send Information Particles out to gather information and bring it back. The whole "zero time delay" point is about the fact that, if you can properly manipulate Information Particles, you can perceive, move, and operate inside the Stopped World without experiencing the kind of time difference shown above. That's the entire point of the explanation.

In conclusion: The zero time delay or exceeding SOL was never a thing. It was just how the constant speed of Information Particles looks and how moving even in a Stopped World wouldn't cause any delays to others. It just gives the impression of that, which is again, as I said, backed up by the Volume 23 statement where FTL speed shouldn't be possible for Information Particles since their speed is set as constant. So they are either SOL or below SOL speed.

Also, "to any point in time" seems like just the translator's choice of words (Riakou is free to comment on this) since the Jisho site shows different meanings for に, which can also be read as "at."

に - Jisho.org

jisho.org

Even that doesn't change much, as I already mentioned. It's just talking about how they can move in any situation, not that the author is literally trying to convey them moving beyond linear time to grant immeasurable speed here. If that were the case, he wouldn't be hyping up FTL speed.

 

[CongratulatorySnail399]

Thank you spaceman for still following the thread. Since you are reading this I'm gonna explain more stuff.



You can see where Rimuru talks about how this FTL-speed phenomenon shouldn't be possible since the speed of Information Particles is constant, showing that Information Particles either travel at SOL or below that speed. He first theorizes that it may be possible because the laws of physics do not exist in the Stopped World, but then immediately rejects that idea by saying it shouldn't be possible since Information Particles' speed is constant. This shows that Rimuru has never seen Information Particles traveling at FTL speeds. That literally debunks the whole infinite or immeasurable speed interpretation for Information Particles that OP is trying to argue.

I also need to point out:



In this scan, Rimuru is literally talking about how Information Particles 'appear' to exceed the speed of light. You can also read it as look like they are exceeding SOL speed. He then immediately corrects that interpretation by saying that it is not because their speed is faster. Instead, he says it feels like that is the case. He is explaining why their constant speed creates the appearance of faster than light transmission, not that they are literally traveling beyond SOL speed. Also, the "zero time delay" statement is being taken out of context.



Check this scan where a time delay was occurring because Rimuru did not yet have full control over Information Particles while time was stopped, and Ciel had to send Information Particles out to gather information and bring it back. The whole "zero time delay" point is about the fact that, if you can properly manipulate Information Particles, you can perceive, move, and operate inside the Stopped World without experiencing the kind of time difference shown above. That's the entire point of the explanation.

In conclusion: The zero time delay or exceeding SOL was never a thing. It was just how the constant speed of Information Particles looks and how moving even in a Stopped World wouldn't cause any delays to others. It just gives the impression of that, which is again, as I said, backed up by the Volume 23 statement where FTL speed shouldn't be possible for Information Particles since their speed is set as constant. So they are either SOL or below SOL speed.

Also, "to any point in time" seems like just the translator's choice of words (Riakou is free to comment on this) since the Jisho site shows different meanings for に, which can also be read as "at."

に - Jisho.org

jisho.org

Even that doesn't change much, as I already mentioned. It's just talking about how they can move in any situation, not that the author is literally trying to convey them moving beyond linear time to grant immeasurable speed here. If that were the case, he wouldn't be hyping up FTL speed.

Dude why are you using mtl as an argument. You do realize that’s not allowed right? Cause to my knowledge no translator has translated this yet and you never provided proof it was in DMs or anything

The scan also states they should exist in separate coordinates. This could also mean they use the different coordinates to perform 0 time lag as later on it’s contradicted by the fact they have 0 time delay which the speed of light doesn’t.


How does this scan support your argument I’m lost here? This doesn’t debunk anything since Rimuru had little to no control of information particles. This mean proper digital lifeforms can have 0 time delay, not people who barely grasped it or aren’t digital lifeforms.


I fail to see how your argument debunks 0 time delay. Your evidence for this is mtl and misinterpreting a scan. The same scan also states that information particles exist in a different coordinate system. What’s to say that coordinate system doesn’t allow travel with 0 time delay and above. Secondly it goes on to still say they have 0 time delay when traveling in a space which the speed of light doesn’t have. Secondly where in the scan does it also state constant? Rimuru never mentions that because of them moving at constant speeds they appear to have 0 time delay.


Also for the “any point in time” quote get it retranslated by a translator here because I don’t think would trust you or anyone else here besides experts on the matter of kanji so this isn’t relevant to the topic.


also stay on topic about immeasurable speed, i keep seeing others trying to somehow debunk something that’s already accepted when you have to make a downgrade for that.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Dude why are you using mtl as an argument. You do realize that’s not allowed right? Cause to my knowledge no translator has translated this yet and you never provided proof it was in DMs or anything

The scan also states they should exist in separate coordinates. This could also mean they use the different coordinates to perform 0 time lag as later on it’s contradicted by the fact they have 0 time delay which the speed of light doesn’t.


How does this scan support your argument I’m lost here? This doesn’t debunk anything since Rimuru had little to no control of information particles. This mean proper digital lifeforms can have 0 time delay, not people who barely grasped it or aren’t digital lifeforms.


I fail to see how your argument debunks 0 time delay. Your evidence for this is mtl and misinterpreting a scan. The same scan also states that information particles exist in a different coordinate system. What’s to say that coordinate system doesn’t allow travel with 0 time delay and above. Secondly it goes on to still say they have 0 time delay when traveling in a space which the speed of light doesn’t have. Secondly where in the scan does it also state constant? Rimuru never mentions that because of them moving at constant speeds they appear to have 0 time delay.


Also for the “any point in time” quote get it retranslated by a translator here because I don’t think would trust you or anyone else here besides experts on the matter of kanji so this isn’t relevant to the topic.


also stay on topic about immeasurable speed, i keep seeing others trying to somehow debunk something that’s already accepted when you have to make a downgrade for that.

I didn't use MTL; I used the kanji meaning, which is a different case, and we do that all the time to see if a sentence has a different meaning. If you think it's not usable, feel free to make a report. Staff can check that on their own. I even said that a wiki translator can comment on that if they wish. Stop trying to move the goalposts by labeling it as MTL. Jisho is a trusted site.

Also, none of your other arguments address the FTL statement or the other scans I posted. I don't see anything productive there. You are just repeating the same thing. Which I already explained you need to tackle FTL statement first if you want to call these bums who can't move at that speed infinite or immeasurable speed.

Heck, even Spaceman has no problem with the arguments, so why are you trying so hard to use "it's previously accepted" as an excuse to push this Immeasurable Speed stuff, which is obviously wrong? If staff says we should do a different thread sure I'll work on that otherwise stop repeating the same thing.

None of you have any arguments to counter that FTL statement. Instead, you only brought up that SoL speed is not constant, which was already addressed later. SoL is not constant because its speed depends on different mediums.

 

[CongratulatorySnail399]

I didn't use MTL; I used the kanji meaning, which is a different case, and we do that all the time to see if a sentence has a different meaning. If you think it's not usable, feel free to make a report. Staff can check that on their own. I even said that a wiki translator can comment on that if they wish. Stop trying to move the goalposts by labeling it as MTL. Jisho is a trusted site.

Also, none of your other arguments address the FTL statement or the other scans I posted. I don't see anything productive there. You are just repeating the same thing. Which I already explained you need to tackle FTL statement first if you want to call these bums who can't move at that speed infinite or immeasurable speed.

Heck, even Spaceman has no problem with the arguments, so why are you trying so hard to use "it's previously accepted" as an excuse to push this Immeasurable Speed stuff, which is obviously wrong? If staff says we should do a different thread sure I'll work on that otherwise stop repeating the same thing.

None of you have any arguments to counter that FTL statement. Instead, you only brought up that SoL speed is not constant, which was already addressed later. SoL is not constant because its speed depends on different mediums.

And I quote
"Detecting the danger and evading it, I confirmed its identity. It was several tentacles. That was dangerous. It's not that I had let my guard down, but its speed was on a completely different level from before. Faster than light—seriously, it was faster than light.

Could it be that in the Stopped World, because the laws of physics do not apply, faster-than-light movement is possible?

No, in the first place, since the speed of information particles is constant, I never thought such a phenomenon could be possible. While praising myself for having been able to react and engaging in a bit of self-congratulation, I continued dealing with Ruvelje's fierce assault."

Is this not a blatant use of mtl? You used this in your argument twice the jisho I tackled was a separate issue. For Jisho I said it was irrelevant as you or anyone else here for the matter isn’t a expert on kanji so that’s an irrelevant topic unless a translator comments on it. Secondly I never moved goalpost what are you talking about? I’m telling you to stop using mtl to support your argument cause not only is it not allowed. It makes you seem desperate no offense. And raiki or any other translator for the matter hasn’t commented on it yet so it’s very much irrelevant and very much against the rules.

My argument addressed the fact that information particles operate on a separate coordinate system. I argued you provided no evidence to say the coordinate system doesn’t allow travel beyond light speed. You would’ve realized this was me tackling the ftl statement.

Spaceman is neutral here I don’t see how him not having a problem with either side is relevant here?


I’m arguing a different coordinate system which to my knowledge was never addressed here. I never argued constant ftl what are you talking about. Did you read my reply?

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

And I quote
"Detecting the danger and evading it, I confirmed its identity. It was several tentacles. That was dangerous. It's not that I had let my guard down, but its speed was on a completely different level from before. Faster than light—seriously, it was faster than light.

Could it be that in the Stopped World, because the laws of physics do not apply, faster-than-light movement is possible?

No, in the first place, since the speed of information particles is constant, I never thought such a phenomenon could be possible. While praising myself for having been able to react and engaging in a bit of self-congratulation, I continued dealing with Ruvelje's fierce assault."

Is this not a blatant use of mtl? You used this in your argument twice the jisho I tackled was a separate issue. For Jisho I said it was irrelevant as you or anyone else here for the matter isn’t a expert on kanji so that’s an irrelevant topic unless a translator comments on it. Secondly I never moved goalpost what are you talking about? I’m telling you to stop using mtl to support your argument cause not only is it allowed. It makes you seem desperate no offense. And raiki or any other generator for the matter hasn’t commented on it yet so it’s very much irrelevant and very much against the rules.

My argument addressed the fact that information particles operate on a separate coordinate system. I argued you provided no evidence to say the coordinate system doesn’t allow travel beyond light speed. You would’ve realized this was me tackling the ftl statement.

Spaceman is neutral here I don’t see how him not having a problem with either side is relevant here?


I’m arguing a different coordinate system which to my knowledge was never addressed here. I never argued constant ftl what are you talking about. Did you read my reply?

Brother, that translation was from Raikou according to Astral's post above . He is a wiki Translator. How are you calling that MTL? I think you're not even following the thread or reading any of the arguments properly. Just replying to me by saying that it's MTL already proves you didn't read any of the above arguments or know what you're talking about.

Your argument that they operate on a different coordinate system means nothing when that has nothing to do with speed. Stop derailing the thread if you don't have any idea what MTL is and what isn't.

Also, Spaceman being neutral already gives us the right to address previously accepted stuff. Like I said, if any staff says we should make a new thread, then fine. Otherwise, we are not buying your opinion. It's not your place to say whether we should or shouldn't tackle previously accepted stuff.

 

[CongratulatorySnail399]

Brother, that translation was from Raikou according to Astral's post above . He is a wiki Translator. How are you calling that MTL? I think you're not even following the thread or reading any of the arguments properly. Just replying to me by saying that it's MTL already proves you didn't read any of the above arguments or know what you're talking about.

Your argument that they operate on a different coordinate system means nothing when that has nothing to do with speed. Stop derailing the thread if you don't have any idea what MTL is and what isn't.

Also, Spaceman being neutral already gives us the right to address previously accepted stuff. Like I said, if any staff says we should make a new thread, then fine. Otherwise, we are not buying your opinion. It's not your place to say whether we should or shouldn't tackle previously accepted stuff.

That’s on me, I must’ve missed it so I apologize for that.

Different coordinates seem to very much be relevant when it comes to there speed cause that’s one. Of the first things the scan you presented says that they use. You can’t cherry pick evidence to suit your argument you have to use the whole thing. This doesn’t combat my argument saying that they could simply have 0 time lag and above from using a different coordinate system.

Spaceman being neutral means he doesn’t agree with either side yet firstly. Secondly this isn’t an infinite speed thread but rather an immeasurable speed thread. He’s neutral on immeasurable speed not infinite speed I don’t see where infinite speed comes into play here. Thirdly the infinite speed rating isn’t an opinion bud, it’s something that’s accepted. Arguing about an entirely separate topic in a thread that’s separate from that is textbook derailing. It’s not my place but rather site’s. And lastly mod’s shouldn’t have to tell you to try and downgrade something. You HAVE to make a thread about it otherwise it’s completely irrelevant to the topic of the thread and derailing.

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

This isn't necessarily an agreement or disagreement, but I think it should be clarified that, in physics, the speed of light in a vacuum is constant. However, light travels more slowly when passing through material, so its speed can vary depending on the medium.

Based on what Eldemade posted, I believe the statement that the speed of light is not constant refers to this phenomenon, since that distinction is stated directly.

Not exactly. That statement is about the atmosphere slowing down Suimu itself (got damn the Paddler mistranslation is hilarious), it's not about slowing down light itself.

This was a divine feat, but Ultima’s real target was Paddler, their boss. It swam
through the sky, changing form constantly and seemingly able to set its speed to whatever it wanted at any time, no acceleration required. That meant it could go at top speed from the start, and its maximum combat speed was near the speed of light. Light moves approximately at 880,000 times the speed of sound, and Paddler wasn’t quite there, but it was beyond close enough. The atmosphere was slowing it down a lot, but it was still moving at over 100,000 times the speed of sound, making it impossible for ordinary humans to even see the cryptid. OTL V22

And suim by itself is near the speed of light (relativistic) even in the Otherworld, not SoL.

I mean, Rimuru already knew of and had access to SoL attacks since Volume 5. The "no one can travel at SoL unless in a vacuum" isn't really something super abstract that Ciel has to tell Rimuru in the literal last Volume.

I'll try to give another example. Let's say we go by Elde's assumption that IP is at best SoL; then: SoL doesn't work in the suspended world to begin with:

Neither light nor sound could travel at all. If you wanted to perceive things around you, the only way was through the unique particles around you, ones at the very core of creation—even smaller than photons or spiritual particles. These were the “data particles” Ultima mentioned, and Luminus could understand that well enough. OTL V21C1

On top of that, information particles are quite literally smaller than photons (which by definition are massless), so, uh, you have a speed of light not working and a speed of light clearly working in the suspended world. I think that should get you the idea of what "SoL isn't constant" works. IP moves at speed such that constant speed = Suspended World speed + SoL, not SoL alone. So really, Rimuru is more so surprised that they are travelling at a speed beyond their constant speed. And that is quite literally the highlight of that scan:

We won't be able to meet anymore, goodbye. While I was bewildered about how I should deal with it, a horizontal slash passed through the location where I was. Detecting the danger and evading it, I confirmed its identity. It was several tentacles. That was dangerous. It's not that I had let my guard down, but its speed was on a completely different level from before. Faster than light seriously, it was faster than light.

Could it be that in the Stopped World, because the laws of physics do not apply, faster than light movement is possible?

No, in the first place, since the speed of information particles is constant, I never thought such a phenomenon could be possible. While praising myself for having been able to react and engaging in a bit of self congratulation I continued dealing with Ruvelje's fierce assault. Directly ahead, the giant body remained there as it was. Only the tentacles that had separated from its tail were launching attacks as if tracking me. If it were only that, I could somehow manage, but feeling a chill, I turned my eyes toward Ruvelje's gigantic body. An intense sense of incongruity.
Translated by Raiki

I'll also try to summarize the replies I gave to the other guys above, including ones that prove Elde's argument (to my understanding) is wrong:

• Speed of Light isn't constant doesn't just refer to "vacuum and non-vacuum" stuff.
• IP movement is constant and instantaneous, it happens in 0 time lag and IP can transmit into to any point in time.
• The Convo between Rimuru and Chloe wasn't instantaneous because Rimuru wasn't a dlf yet.
• Being able to interfere with IP =/= being a dlf, even when it comes to speed.
• Unless you're a dlf, even if u can interfere wog infons, you need time to process the info you receive from IP since they aren't...part of your own body. That is what creates the lag, essentially.
• The "IP travels to different coordinates with 0 time lag " is a statement that comes after this whole discussion of why interfere with infons isn't enough and being a dlf is required.

---

You cannot keep asserting that I'm derailing when none of that is happening. Also no, I don't need to downgrade the result of the previous thread in order to contest the current proposal not to mention, "this thread works on the assumption that infinite speed is accepted", you do realize you just proved what I said right? The purpose of splitting it into two threads is piggyback off the previous one otherwise what do you mean that it works on the assumption it has been accepted if not "if the previous one was okay then this one must be too"? You're literally hiding one thread behind another and trying to eliminate any opposition in that manner.

Then go get the previous thread rejected. You're overwriting something that was quite literally accepted like a month ago in the part 1 of this thread "because I wasn't there", yada yada

Go make your own thread to downgrade that infinite speed if u wanna argue it isn't speed to begin with. It's not me piggybacking on that thread, this is quite literally how vsbw works. We aren't supposed to just dump text walls upon text walls into a single thread and expect staff to evaluate it with a peace of mind.

Honestly lame how you're trynna circumvent something already accepted with something akin to "fight me if you have the guts"

The speed of information particles is constant, the same goes for information transfer between them however, the two aren't mutually inclusive. Data transfer through radio waves doesn't mean the physical movement of anything that emits radio waves is at the speed of light. It's as simple as that

Uh.... Yo info know our infinite speed is quite literally "relativistic/hypersonic/whatever normally, Infinite in digital nature"??
So this doesn't even matter cuz what you're saying applies only outside the suspended world or when a person isn't in digital nature at some moment, meanwhile our infinite speed is ONLY when they are in digital nature, when they are composed of data particles that trasmit information.

It never was a contention however, precisely because they are unhindered by and unfettered from space and time to an extent, information doesn't need to pass through space or any media for that matter in order to be transmitted neither is there any time taken in the transmission of said information

My logic has zero implications of this as their BDE is more about them being unbound from space and time so it doesn't factor into the rate of information transfer. BDE 1 characters are simply put immune to conventional spatial and time manipulation and quite frankly, I'm starting to have doubts if BDE 1 should even remain given that matter is composed of information particles and they have mass meanwhile, BDE 1 is supposed to lack spatio-temporal features.

Anyway, none of this rules out what I said, they are simply not fettered by constraints such as space and time so both distance and time aren't applicable to their information transfer (given they cannot physically travel through time on their own).

"Never a contention" meanwhile proceeds to argue further about BDE and also forgot what you said in the last page; "Thanks to it's BDE 1 nature, this isn't a case of time being undefined but rather distance and time not being applicable so there's no speed at all". Negative tracking skills store

The main character of the series with the supergenius supercomputer ability himself confirms it isn't a matter of speed. It just merely appears that way. So far, there has been nothing brought forward scans, context or otherwise to refute this.

They said "it isn't a matter of surpassing the speed of light", not that "it isn't a matter of speed". Holy twisting words

---

This is my last comment here, because I’m honestly tired. I already know that after all this effort, in the end, that group of staff will just agree as usual.

As I told you, Rimuru himself admitted that the speed of light is the maximum speed he has dealt with up to this point. This is something Rimuru himself stated, and the text implies that the speed of light is the highest speed any character in Tensura can reach outside all spatial and temporal constraints.

Even though Rimuru himself acknowledged this, you are trying to ignore it and create interpretations to justify a text that is already clear and has no ambiguity. If Rimuru heard you here saying that his speed is “immeasurable,” he himself would be surprised and would not believe where you got that from, because he is personally completely surprised even by the speed of light. So what if you told him about infinite speed or immeasurable speed? I think Rimuru himself would be shocked to death.

Not even getting my argument
The speed of light isn't constant while speed of IP is yada yada, that's why he's surprises cuz ivarage's information particles are illogically moving beyond their law of constant speed.
You're welcome to stop replying tho ¯⁠\⁠⁠(⁠ツ⁠)⁠⁠/⁠¯

---

More evidence to the pile from elde

There's time taken in sending out an infon (I'll be calling it that from now on) to observe the surrounding and recalling it to obtain that data which proves what I have been saying. Information transfer= instantaneous, movement of infon= not instantaneous therefore, rate of information transfer =/= physical movement speed of infons.

Unsurprisingly what the first thread jinxed came out to be true. Larpers are using this argument while ignoring the whole context.

This is before Rimuru became a dlf. Ciel can talk to him instantaneously because she's a part of him, they share the same soul and all. But Rimuru himself isn't a dlf; he flies out info particles and receives back info, but there would still be a time lag (cuz duh, he isn't a dlf yet). Simply being able to interfere with IP is NOT the same as being a dlf yourself:

Well, Chloe had come, but I still remained motionless. In other words, it was impossible to reply to her—

«No problem. It turns out that information particles are unaffected by time or space and can transmit information to any point in time. This means that they can transmit thoughts even in a suspended world.»

Is that so? The conversation between me and Ciel-san was happening instantly. However, the voice I heard from Chloe had a slight time difference. The reason for this remained unknown though, right? If the information particle was unaffected by time and space, then wouldn’t it make sense that communication would be instantaneous as well?

«I am a part of Master, so I am not affected by time at all. However, if you want to know what’s going on outside in the suspended world, an information particle needs to be flown out to grasp the information of the surroundings—»

Hmm, that’s hard to explain. In short, the information particle is not affected by space-time, so it can move in any situation. That’s why, by interfering with the information particle as a substitute for magicules, you can maintain your vision and transmit your thoughts. In other words, interfering with the information particle was not enough to move in this situation. Chloe seemed to be talking normally, but I guess we shouldn’t confuse her with the real world.

I thought that she was using ‘Thought Acceleration,’ but it seems that this was not the case. Apparently, we were just exchanging information particles with no time lag, and it was possible because we shared the same ‘soul.’ In that case, if I wanted to communicate my intent to a third party in this ‘Suspended World’—

«You can imprint your will on the information particle and hit the other person.»

This may sound rough, but I understood it well. Ciel-san could now interfere with the information particle, so it’s possible to reply. In the first place, the reason why I could see what was going on around me now was because I was reflecting the information particles. I wondered whether or not the speed of the information particles was constant in this ‘Suspended World,’ but I was glad to hear that the conversation was established. Slimereader

You can make your thoughts travel to the other party at infinite speed, but that doesn't mean the time you take to process the reply is also infinite, UNLESS You're a dlf.

So larp better next time

---

Talk about a double edged sword. On the one hand, you may be paving a way to immeasurable speed by eliminating anti-feats but on the other hand, you bring into question the validity of all SoL statements in the verse and end up downgrading them so I'll just leave you withthe advice of not going down this route, though the choice is ultimately yours.

P.S: The speed of light is actually not constant. In a vacuum it's 300,000,000 m/s, in air it's 299,792,458 m/s, in water it's about 225,000,000 m/s. Also, he literally said "conceptual topics".

Oh for sure for sure. Our SoL from early volumes is based on a numerical value (10,000km divided by 0.034s), not just a direct statement. Goodluck downgrading that.

---

Anyways, right now I'm just really exhausted from some drama (outside vsbw) and don't have the mental or physical stamina to keep replying. I'll be taking a break for a few days till things hopefully resolve (really hope so, because this is depressing for me too ;-; so don't expect a serious or lengthy reply from me.


Will the powerscaling blood that runs through my veins overpower this depression? I don't know, maybe, maybe not. But I thought I ought to give a notice in case I do indeed disappear for some time.

Ah, and, @AlexSamDen goodluck with the CRT, homie

 

[Tatsumi504]

Not exactly. That statement is about the atmosphere slowing down Suimu itself (got damn the Paddler mistranslation is hilarious), it's not about slowing down light itself.

Bruh, this is pure physics regardless of how you try to dice it. The speed of light in a vacuum is 300,000,000 m/s and that's constant but it is lower when moving through a medium such as air or water. The rest of what you said is just plain old air resistance. None of this means the speed of light isn't constant in the verse

I mean, Rimuru already knew of and had access to SoL attacks since Volume 5.

Yeah, by reflecting natural sunlight. Shocker.

The "no one can travel at SoL unless in a vacuum" isn't really something super abstract that Ciel has to tell Rimuru in the literal last Volume.

Seems somehow you are not getting that it varies depending on the medium. Ciel didn't even say anything in what Elde sent, if anything, hadn't Rimuru lost Ciel at this point? He is just surprised that a digital lifeform can surpass light speed when their speed is supposed to be constant.

I'll try to give another example. Let's say we go by Elde's assumption that IP is at best SoL; then: SoL doesn't work in the suspended world to begin with:

So we about to start debating if moving in stopped time or timeless voids is infinite or immeasurable in 2026? There's no such thing as it not working, time just isn't applicable

On top of that, information particles are quite literally smaller than photons (which by definition are massless), so, uh, you have a speed of light not working and a speed of light clearly working in the suspended world. I think that should get you the idea of what "SoL isn't constant" works. IP moves at speed such that constant speed = Suspended World speed + SoL, not SoL alone. So really, Rimuru is more so surprised that they are travelling at a speed beyond their constant speed. And that is quite literally the highlight of that scan:

Ngl, I admire how y'all can spin this web of convoluted stories so easily. Photons are indeed massless but infons have mass as close to zero as possible meaning not massless. Something can be smaller than another and still be heavier , it's called density.

I'll also try to summarize the replies I gave to the other guys above, including ones that prove Elde's argument (to my understanding) is wrong:

• Speed of Light isn't constant doesn't just refer to "vacuum and non-vacuum" stuff.

No, it's constant.

• IP movement is constant and instantaneous, it happens in 0 time lag and IP can transmit into to any point in time.

Information transmission is instantaneous, movement of infons isn't instantaneous

• The Convo between Rimuru and Chloe wasn't instantaneous because Rimuru wasn't a dlf yet.

Has nothing to do with that but I'll get to that later where you quoted me specifically

• Being able to interfere with IP =/= being a dlf, even when it comes to speed.

No one contested this, it doesn't matter given that their speed is constant, the speed at which a non digital lifeform should be controlling them at should be the same because that what "constant" denotes.

• Unless you're a dlf, even if u can interfere wog infons, you need time to process the info you receive from IP since they aren't...part of your own body. That is what creates the lag, essentially.

Bruh, can we see some scans rather than "trust me bro". The "IP travels to different coordinates with 0 time lag " is a statement that comes after this whole discussion of why interfere with infons isn't enough and being a dlf is required.

Then go get the previous thread rejected. You're overwriting something that was quite literally accepted like a month ago in the part 1 of this thread "because I wasn't there", yada yada

Go make your own thread to downgrade that infinite speed if u wanna argue it isn't speed to begin with. It's not me piggybacking on that thread, this is quite literally how vsbw works. We aren't supposed to just dump text walls upon text walls into a single thread and expect staff to evaluate it with a peace of mind.

At this rate, I might as well be replying to a wall. I don't need to get the previous thread rejected because regardless of the decision reached here, the infinite speed rating will stay until a separate thread is made to remove it. I am well within my rights to contest the current proposal without addressing the previous one.

Simple as that.

Honestly lame how you're trynna circumvent something already accepted with something akin to "fight me if you have the guts"

Yeah, "fight me if you have the guts" might as well be the best way to put it. What's lame is that y'all aren't even making an effort to actually hide the purpose behind these hidden CRT's. Spinning a web of lies and proudly wearing it like a damn coat, can't even put in the effort to properly larp the agenda you pushing. Disappointing is all it is.

Uh.... Yo info know our infinite speed is quite literally "relativistic/hypersonic/whatever normally, Infinite in digital nature"??

Bruh, where, tf, is, the, proof?

So this doesn't even matter cuz what you're saying applies only outside the suspended world or when a person isn't in digital nature at some moment, meanwhile our infinite speed is ONLY when they are in digital nature, when they are composed of data particles that trasmit information.

Stopped time, timeless void ahh argument.

"Never a contention" meanwhile proceeds to argue further about BDE and also forgot what you said in the last page; "Thanks to it's BDE 1 nature, this isn't a case of time being undefined but rather distance and time not being applicable so there's no speed at all". Negative tracking skills store

More like nonexistent reading comprehension so let me simplify it further. Infons don't strictly adhere to the characteristics BDE 1 things are supposed to display so, it is less that they are aspatial and atemporal and more that they are simply not constrained by space and time. Because of this, they can transfer information while bypassing the need for it to travel through space and expend time doing so.

Attendants of Mysteries grafting one location billions of kilometers away to their current one and bypassing the distance in a single step doesn't make them Massively FTL, they just don't have to travel that distance.

They said "it isn't a matter of surpassing the speed of light", not that "it isn't a matter of speed". Holy twisting words

The same inference can still be made. It appears to surpass that speed but doesn't surpass that speed because it is impeded by neither spatial nor temporal constraints= It isn't a matter of speed

Not even getting my argument
The speed of light isn't constant while speed of IP is yada yada, that's why he's surprises cuz ivarage's information particles are illogically moving beyond their law of constant speed.

Not doing this again. The proof is in the pudding so show me the goods.

You're welcome to stop replying tho ¯⁠\⁠⁠(⁠ツ⁠)⁠⁠/⁠¯

Nice try. I'm a very simple man. I won't argue against someone who's right when I know I'm wrong. Also of note, I can be extremely petty if I choose to be so go ahead, keep riling me up, like a parasite, I'll stick to this thread and every other one as long as I'm aware of it regardless of how long it takes.

My reasoning is direct, travelling down a simple straight line meanwhile yours is not only indirect, it traces a long convoluted path through multiple branches to arrive at an absurd answer.
One of the points I brought up in my first message is how infons require no external media, space for example, to transfer information and aren't bound by time so the information can be transmitted even to the past. Lo and behold, one of the later scans sent by a third party separate from you and I confirmed it. The fact that I arrived at an answer corroborated by the story without even knowing about it prior speaks for itself.

Unsurprisingly what the first thread jinxed came out to be true. Larpers are using this argument while ignoring the whole context.

The first thread left out important points by cropping scans. Tf is you on?

This is before Rimuru became a dlf. Ciel can talk to him instantaneously because she's a part of him, they share the same soul and all. But Rimuru himself isn't a dlf; he flies out info particles and receives back info, but there would still be a time lag (cuz duh, he isn't a dlf yet). Simply being able to interfere with IP is NOT the same as being a dlf yourself:

Ciel instantaneously talks to him because he is a part of him. Rimurus isn't a dlf so he cannot grasp the surrounding information with his body, he has to send out an infon and recall it to read the corresponding data. The lag is caused by the need to send out and recall the infon.

I've been telling y'al to stop contradicting yourselves way back even in 2024. D you even understand what it means for something to be said to be "constant"? Aconstant is something that does not change, vary or stop. It's an ongoing occurrence, a steadfast state or a fixed value. If the speed of infons are constant then regardless of who's controlling them, the speed should be the same. It doesn't matter if one is made out of it or simply controlling it. The speed of light in a given material is constant so regardless of whether one is made of photons or controlling photons, they move at the same speed in the same medium.

You can make your thoughts travel to the other party at infinite speed, but that doesn't mean the time you take to process the reply is also infinite, UNLESS You're a dlf.

So larp better next time

I had a snarky reply but you're just not worth it

Anyways, right now I'm just really exhausted from some drama (outside vsbw) and don't have the mental or physical stamina to keep replying. I'll be taking a break for a few days till things hopefully resolve (really hope so, because this is depressing for me too ;-, so don't expect a serious or lengthy reply from me.


Will the powerscaling blood that runs through my veins overpower this depression? I don't know, maybe, maybe not. But I thought I ought to give a notice in case I do indeed disappear for some time.

Ah, and, @AlexSamDen goodluck with the CRT, homie

 

[Ultimuru]

Will the powerscaling blood that runs through my veins overpower this depression? I don't know, maybe, maybe not. But I thought I ought to give a notice in case I do indeed disappear for some time.

Stay strong son. May your heart be your guiding key.

 

[Robo432343]

Infinite speed seems to be the most consistent and accurate for this verse

 

[RaikiKurohane99]

I also checked the raw text. The particular word に can mean either "at" or "to" depending on the context, especially considering that this is a Slime Reader (MTL) translation. Even the later statements, and the rest of the same paragraph, are discussing the situation itself, which makes "at" fit better than "to" in my opinion.

That said, you're free to ask a Japanese translator for clarification. I'm simply pointing out an alternative meaning that the kanji and grammar can support based on the context.

Also, "to any point in time" seems like just the translator's choice of words (Riakou is free to comment on this) since the Jisho site shows different meanings for に, which can also be read as "at."

It's true that に can mean either at or to depending on the context. However, in this sentence the verb is 伝える, so to is the correct interpretation here.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Infinite speed seems to be the most consistent and accurate for this verse

Infinite speed < FTL fr
Mind listing consistent infinite speed statement and feats robo?

It's true that に can mean either at or to depending on the context. However, in this sentence the verb is 伝える, so to is the correct interpretation here.

Thank you for the confirmation, but I don't agree with this interpretation. As I already mentioned, it's talking about the situation. Besides, the FTL statement and the supposed constant speed would contradict the "to any point in time" interpretation. If Information Particles have a constant speed, then their speed shouldn't vary.

 

[Hecky2222]

Goku blitzes thread + MG/Tensura combined with 67 mln(wanked) multipliers

Sorry Granny

 

[ReasonedZebra834]

Goku arrasa com a thread + MG/Tensura combinados com multiplicadores de 67 milhões (exagerados)

Desculpe, vovó.