GodlyCharmander
He/Him- 6,945
- 6,308
Sans' reaction to Flowey is, "huh? You haven't beaten this weirdo yet". Like...?sans when he sees Flowey:
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UNDERTALE/DELTARUNE [shiny new] DISCUSSION THEAD
- Thread starter ZillertheBucko
- Start date
Eden_Warlock99
She/Her- 13,701
- 6,762
Why did you bold the yet, what is that supposed to mean lol
You know what's more indicative of what he knows? sans (Apparently) has seen this Flower guy kill him and everyone he knows a few dozen times in his dreams, and it's also rn giving his brothers predictions, is it the lad screwing with the timeline? Nahhh, it's obviously the kid that fell down this morning lol
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[C], this is just
a bad dream... \\[C] これは
ただの わるい ゆめ…
Wake up!
It's not over! めを さまして！
まだ おわりじゃない！
English Japanese
\\[C]! It's like
he says... そうだよ \\[C]！
You have to
stay determined... ケツイを ちからに
かえて…
English Japanese
\\[C]! Please
don't give up... \\[C]！
あきらめないで…
Have some
determination... ケツイを ちからに
かえるんだ…
English Japanese
\\[C]! You're
\\[C]! \\[C]！ そう
キミは \\[C]だ！
You can't quit!
Stay determined... あきらめちゃダメだ！
ケツイを ちからに…！
English Japanese
\\[C], is this
a kind of joke? \\[C]…
じょうだんのつもり…？
Cut it out!
Wake up! やめてよ！
めを あけて！
English Japanese
\\[C], it's not
time to leave! \\[C] まだ
おわりじゃない！
Hold on! あきらめちゃダメだ！
English Japanese
\\[C], gather
your strength. \\[C]
がんばれ…
Stay determined! ケツイを ちからに
かえるんだ！
English Japanese
\\[C], you have
to keep going. \\[C]
あきらめちゃダメだよ
Stay determined! ケツイを
ちからに かえるんだ！
These would be used after you have died once if you have not killed anybody, but is always overwritten by another set of dialogue. These messages uses Asriel's voice beep, which gives the intention of these messages being Asriel's final words to the fallen human shortly after their death. The dialogue saying "This is all just a bad dream" did end up getting somewhat used when dying to Photoshop Flowey.
GodlyCharmander
He/Him- 6,945
- 6,308
Something something, "pretending not to know thing thus making the discourse impossible"
The fact he immediately recognizes Flowey, and implies Frisk should've beaten Flowey already, is proof he has at least some recollections of it.
TRAGIC: Eden forgets that a Deja Vú needs a trigger to happen, and it's not a photograpgic memory! Sans not IMMEDIATELY recognizing Flowey through a description when they do have flowers that talk in the Waterfall is not a contradiction to the scenario I provided, which, is the only possible scenario. Sans needed to get his research from a time traveller/anomaly that existed prior to Frisk, and Sans wasn't around when Chara was here.
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To chamender i can only say this..
"Through my career, some of my best ideas came from dreams"
"Take a rest, here...if anyone asks you're writting!"
"Through my career, some of my best ideas came from dreams"
"Take a rest, here...if anyone asks you're writting!"
Axorandom0
He/Him- 1,109
- 534
Can you also say why you said that I feel like that’d be important
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I think Dreams in leak futures that are fated to happen and we literally have kris skip the whole light world section by Dreaming or gerson getting ideas that are connected with the prophecy (a event from the future)
Eden_Warlock99
She/Her- 13,701
- 6,762
Oh yeah, forgot the third Charmander precept: “Whatever way I interpret a line is absolute, and anyone who reads it differently is just being disingenuous.”
It obviously can’t just be encouragement like literally every other line in that sequence. Ya know something along the lines of "this guy is should be so easy for you, I’m surprised you haven’t beaten him already." And that interpretation is very much not reinforced by the VERY NEXT LINE "come on, this weirdo’s got nothin’ on you."
It’s been giving Papyrus predictions and there aren’t even any flower monsters. If we’re going with the idea that Sans can straight-up remember dialogue from previous LOADs like @Moon_Crasher is arguing, then the flower that’s been killing people and literally killed him should be one of the first things that comes to mind. Come on.
GodlyCharmander
He/Him- 6,945
- 6,308
You didn't provide a different reading of the line, you just said, "huuuuh, what does THAT mean?" and then pretended the point didn't exist.
Yes, Eden, these are mutually exclusive, you are very smart. How does Sans know how easy Flowey should usually be? We may never know, it's a mystery that surely doesn't have an answer that aligns with all the evidence. A real chin scratcher here.
An anomaly using an echo flower like Sans suspected? NO!!!
It's that one thing from a Deja Vú that I have not yet experienced in this timeline.
Funny, that's not what's being debated at all. Are you still going to pretend we're saying Sans has a perfect photographic memory of previous events and not just very faint recollections that need specific events to be triggered? If you do it again, I will simply not respond anymore, is that cool with you? Not really a fan of banging my head against a wall for 3 hours these days, so I hope you understand.
Axorandom0
He/Him- 1,109
- 534
How did we so quickly get passive aggressive over Sans’ memories????
I think the simplest solution to our problem is to my memories him
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Something posseses people when they try to downplay my goat, thats why
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Soo your theory is the same thing kris experience in the unused dialogue from the beginning in ch 1 ?
Eden_Warlock99
She/Her- 13,701
- 6,762
I genuinely didn't understand what you were trying to get at with that line, again you just bolded "yet" and acted like it was evident.
The line is already ambiguous on its own, and your conclusion, that it means sans knows who Flowey is and he’s specifically surprised Frisk hasn’t beaten him in a Pacifist timeline is far from the first thought many people would have upon reading it.
He doesn't. It's just unconditional belief in us. Hell him knowing how strong Flowey is beforehand isn't even relevant considering the bozo just absorbed 6 SOULs.
Do you also think Undyne actually thinks that she's the strongest person in the underground cause that's what she said to motivate Frisk?
Especially when your interpretation has to ignore sans being unfamiliar with Flowey going by to the Grillby conversation and the end of the Neutral Route Flowey dialogue implying that Flowey was/is capable of hiding his intentions from sans.
He shouldn't even default to thinking it's an Echo Flower if he's actually experiencing the Deja Vu like you're saying, that through his recollections he could realize the exact number of times we've died and even what he said in previous timelines.
Just hearing about this flower who's been giving Papyrus predictions should be more than enough stimuli to bring back the memories of the Flower he fought dozens of times.
Yeah my last reply was really mean, sorry about that Charmander.
Moon_Crasher
He/Him- 400
- 137
He isn't necessarily blaming you for the jumping timelines, he's likely just blaming you for everything stopping.
He probably just made the incorrect assumption about someone using an echo flower because he didn't think someone like Flowey would have or still have any interest in Papyrus (especially since Flowey actively avoids sans).
He would at least have to be somewhat familiar with Flowey since how he would even know what SAVING is called without Flowey? Besides his fourth wall awareness, I can't really see any other way for him to possibly know this. (Why would Flowey even warn you at all if he'd have zero deja vu/vague remeberance about it anyways?)
He also seems to have knowledge of the True Lab and the Amalgamates and there's notes about Flowey in there too.
Sans talks about "knowing our type", which can only really be referencing Flowey.
Why go back as far as Chara? He probably wasn't around during the time when any of the other fallen humans could load either.
Eh, he still has the whole knowing you've eaten and used SAVE points in the ruins thing, which is actually more impressive tbh.
Moon_Crasher
He/Him- 400
- 137
sans can remember one whole sentence he said and keep track/count of how many times he killed you but saying he remembers/knows anything beyond that would be baseless headcanon, especially since he himself says he'd probably lose track of how many times you've died after 11 times showing he struggles past that point and that he has a clear limit, he does say there's nuance to it after all. And remember, this is all with Frisk giving him super obvious tells to help him keep track too.
It's better déjà vu than most monsters experience, but it's not anything super crazy.
It's better déjà vu than most monsters experience, but it's not anything super crazy.
Eden_Warlock99
She/Her- 13,701
- 6,762
I mean he attributes RESETs "we'll just end up right back here, without any memory of it, right?" to the Anomaly.
He then outright calls us that Anomaly, even saying that we're "consuming timelines."
So dunno bout that interpretation.
I don't see how that makes sense tbh, like if anything, why would sans assume Flowey wouldn't still have interest in Papyrus when he has evidence to the contrary? The fact that this flower is giving Papyrus predictions should be one of the biggest indicators that it's actually Flowey and not just some rando with an Echo Flower.
Like if he's actually aware of Flowey's existence, he intentionally has to ignore the pretty obvious connection in order to not put the pieces together.
One could argue the achievement sans calls are just 4th wall nudges ala the Dirty Hacker Ending and don't actually mean anything in-universe (How would he even know if we ate something against Asgore or smth) or, if we really want an explanation, whatever machine sans was using to monitor the timeline has gone completely silent since we arrived and that's how sans deduced that we've never SAVED.
Still the fact he never uses the SAVE/LOAD terminology again, even in the Geno fight, makes me think it's just the former.
The rest is just really ambiguous stuff that might suggest he knows about Flowey, but nothing really strong enough to hold the claim on its own.
Like sure sans and Alphys got something going on, but nothing really indicates that he was directly involved with her DT experiments or acting as a lab partner when Flowey was created. If anything, it's more plausible to say she told him about the Amalgamates after the fact. And then you have to wonder whether she would've told him about the flower or not, and given how surprised she was when Papyrus mentioned it, I doubt they really discussed it.
The "i know your type"
I dunno what the exact term for it is, but people do say stuff like that even when they aren't necessarily referring to a specific person.
Moon_Crasher
He/Him- 400
- 137
He says, "we'll just end up right back here, without any memory of it, right?" to mock how the idea of just being able to whatever we want with no consequence. The everything stopping part clearly refers to Chara's game ending slash, he even hints at it right before he dies, the only reason he's fighting you is because he believes the world could end if you proceed. When he moves onto his whole talk about how the resets make it hard to give it his all, it's him moving to a different subject.
It'd be weird if it was non-canon considering he'll directly reference back to something he said on the game over screen after he "dunks you" in his fight, and the game over screen usually shows memories of Chara and Asgore which only the player sees, since Frisk never really seems to ever show any reaction to or evidence of seeing these flashbacks themself (sleeping in Toriel's house, the fall in Waterfall, and Asriel's flashback after calling out to him).
It's not impossible for the phone call achievements to be non-canon but it'd be weird ig. (I mean the Snowman is literally something that happens ingame too, so it'd be really weird to just have 2 non-canon achievements ingame, the hacker ending can't be accessed normally after all)
It'd be weird for him to not have any sort of idea about any other kind of talking flower when Alphys' entries make note of a flower coming to life and just disappearing.
Honestly, I think sans just doesn't really seem to take Flowey seriously or care about Flowey at all, probably because he's not the actual player character or something idk.
We don't really know how the "machine" sans uses with unknown assistance even works or if it's even a machine at all (can't be the thing in his lab since it's broken).
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Hold up i just noticed, why don't Undyne and the Almagamates recieve all the basic determination abilities (timeline control)?
We downright have proof that the almagamates had control over the timeline before Flowey came around (they could mimick a save file which only appears to those who have control over the timeline).
And Undyne never used her abilities because another being always overwrote it
Edit: I get it that "they never used it" is probably the reason why they don't have it but the reason this happens is because Flowey overwrote their control over the timeline. Imagine if a character who has fire manip but has never used it because they live in a City which has law hax that stops fire from being used. Would that make so the character doesn't have fire manip in the eyes of the wiki?
We downright have proof that the almagamates had control over the timeline before Flowey came around (they could mimick a save file which only appears to those who have control over the timeline).
And Undyne never used her abilities because another being always overwrote it
Edit: I get it that "they never used it" is probably the reason why they don't have it but the reason this happens is because Flowey overwrote their control over the timeline. Imagine if a character who has fire manip but has never used it because they live in a City which has law hax that stops fire from being used. Would that make so the character doesn't have fire manip in the eyes of the wiki?
Axorandom0
He/Him- 1,109
- 534
This would apply to anyone with determination (aka every monster since they all have DT, just a small amount), right? Everyone just keeps getting overridden by someone else.
GodlyCharmander
He/Him- 6,945
- 6,308
Which is still very... incorrect? In a perfect Genocide, we never tamper with the timeline once, so
Eden_Warlock99
She/Her- 13,701
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SAVE or not, Chara still does nuke everything in the end so
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No??
Thats for only for Deltarune.....OH GOD DELTARUNE WILL BE SO HAXED.
Edit: Oh yeah if my message is hard to understand. No monster in undertale has determination naturaly, that only happens in deltarune
Moon_Crasher
He/Him- 400
- 137
Oh, wait! I meant to use the line "until suddenly, everything ends", starting and stopping refers to saves, reloads, and resets, "until suddenly, everything ends" is the timeline death, he's specifically blaming you for the timeline's imminent destruction because of all the killing you've been doing. Sorry, my bad for mixing stopping with everything ends.
Axorandom0
He/Him- 1,109
- 534
I thought they just had absolutely minuscule amounts of the stuff. Or was that something else? I’m starting to doubt my memory of this decade old game
Moon_Crasher
He/Him- 400
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Alphys just says monsters can't handle the same level of determination as humans and that's about it I think.
GodlyCharmander
He/Him- 6,945
- 6,308
True, but he had to learn this from someone else, and the only canonical option is Flowey.
GodlyCharmander
He/Him- 6,945
- 6,308
What in the non-sequitur...
Yes, the Flowey that has the power to SAVE and LOAD before we arrive. Like, I don't understand why is this argument not being addressed. Sans could not have gotten the reports of timeline tampering from Frisk, it's literally impossible, so he must have gotten from some other thing that can do the same.
What's literally the only option?
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Kris dreemurr...it them
Eden_Warlock99
She/Her- 13,701
- 6,762
I think we both drifted off so much that we're now talking about two completely different things lol
GodlyCharmander
He/Him- 6,945
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Sans knowing about timeline tampering via Flowey is relevant to the "Sans definitely has Deja Vús", because he would have experience of them via this research.
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Might've been covered already, but it seems the question & answer system is sorting users out. Only people with certain answers/responses will get responses.
Presumably, the selection of users will be further narrowed. For what purpose is unknown.
Goldpro, the video maker, has a little over 100 of the current sample of a bit over 1,000 in their community so they can't exhaust the choices, but they're gonna try to thoroughly figure it out.
Seems like we'll get more info when 24 hours remain.
....With how Gaster usually does Toby takeovers just before release...?
Did he do one for Chapters 3 & 4?
Because if it's Gaster when 24 hours remain, does that mean Gaster is involved with these questions &... screening system?
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Randomuser3412
He/Him- 951
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Let's all start calling the Freedom motif "The Circus" motif, okay?
LittleGuy99
He/Him- 1,332
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Randomuser3412
He/Him- 951
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FRIEND appearing exactly thrice (possibly), only in minor cameos, "it's" color scheme being used by Spamton before FRIEND and Mike borderline denouncing relating pink and gold to FRIEND is very funny... Maybe the FRIEND is INSIDE US, as some kind of imaginary FRIEND all along
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He is a imaginary friend huh, kinda like a device for a friend
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The God of Hyperdeath vs The Thorn in Reality (Undertale vs Madness Combat)
“Still you're hanging on...? That's fine. In a few moments, you'll forget everything, too.”: God of Hyperdeath Asriel is used. “FIGHT HARDER”: True Form/Personal Hell Auditor is used. Incon: Speed is equalized. Both parties start 50 meters from each other. The fight takes place within...
GodlyCharmander
He/Him- 6,945
- 6,308
I forgot how boring Chapter 1 was... Good thing I only have to play it once. All the routes are accessible even if I'm pacifist
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