Tier 9 Humanoid Tournament Round 2 Match 4: Alice Fuji vs Sans

[ShionAH]

Sans vs TOAA when

I AM THE ONE ABOVE ALL. I SEE THROUGH MANY EYE- Where the **** are you going?.

 

[Jepilstiltskin]

He is attacking your decisions though

He technically did, but the way he do it can simply be explained by how the soul still exist in the battle system even if its outside the turn. In this case, Sans know where the soul go after the turn ended, and simply attack them from there.

By this interpretation, we're not only using the simplest possible explanation (per Occam's Razor), but we're also remaining consistent with how Sans is portrayed throughout the game, that is, as someone who breaks and exploits the mechanics.

Giving him Mind Manipulation feels overly simplistic. It ends up resembling the old “Removing Limited Law Manipulation from Sans” thread all over again, where the reasoning largely boiled down to statistical or mechanical assumptions such as “Frisk is just fast!” and other unsupportive narrative (instead of actual feats) argument.

 

[Mickey1940]

He doesn't do that against a LVL 1, the anniversary content shows this

that doesn't mean he's just gonna stand there and take hits from Alice since she can 1 shot him back. Even if he doesn't know this, he dodges everything anyways cuz that's just his character

Alice will start with immediate hostility which means Sans will hit her back in turn meaning she dies. Sans does literally anything and she dies. She tries literally anything and Sans just teleports out of the way

 

[Jepilstiltskin]

Frisk is literally deciding what to do, they are using stuff like Information Analysis or the act of talking. Sans is attacking the buttons and the menus where our thoughts are located at

This:

snip

 

[ARandomDude127]

Giving him Mind Manipulation feels overly simplistic.

Well, I did suggest we could give him NPI for Thoughts and stuff, similar to what The Knight (Hollow Knight) has

 

[XxZetsuxX]

that doesn't mean he's just gonna stand there and take hits from Alice since she can 1 shot him back. Even if he doesn't know this, he dodges everything anyways cuz that's just his character

His first move is legit fleeing the battle and winning because of it, is what i am getting at

Alice will start with immediate hostility which means Sans will hit her back in turn meaning she dies. Sans does literally anything and she dies. She tries literally anything and Sans just teleports out of the way

Sans starts first though, she won't be able to do anything

 

[XxZetsuxX]

He technically did

So you agree then, attacking decisions which is something you make with your brain means he is attacking you mentally

 

[Jepilstiltskin]

his first move and Alice has zero options against that and since she's treated as a lv.1 Frisk then she dies instantly

Not his first move, but okay, since the changes about his new winning condition is still recent.

But if you're wondering, his actual first move is... simply walked out of the battle. Yeah, he's that lazy.

 

[First_Witch]

Why is walking out of the battle a win con for him again?

 

[Jepilstiltskin]

So you agree then, attacking decisions which is something you make with your brain means he is attacking you mentally

Why are we cherrypicking? Did you read the rest of the text?

 

[XxZetsuxX]

Why is walking out of the battle a win con for him again?

According to the ability, he wins if he flees the fight

 

[ARandomDude127]

Why is walking out of the battle a win con for him again?

Because in Undertale when he does it, Undertale counts it as HIM winning

 

[Jepilstiltskin]

Why is walking out of the battle a win con for him again?

This.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

It wouldn't work if he thinks whoever he's against is going to end the word, ala his Genocide fight.
It's not like you can't change SBA to force a character to actually fight.

 

[Jepilstiltskin]

People really did overlooked Sans capabilities, huh.

 

[XxZetsuxX]

Why are we cherrypicking? Did you read the rest of the text?

Because i still don't know where you are getting at? And yes i did

You say you technically agree that he attacks something that is done within your brain, you also say it's consistent with how he is portrayed??

I don't know how it is assumption

You can't just attack someone's decisions even with soul hax or whatever (unless ofc, the mind and soul are one?)

 

[First_Witch]

Why should this take precedent over SBA though.

 

[XxZetsuxX]

Sans still doesn't fight you unless you are lvl 19 or above

As he is aware of your lvls, that means he is you killed people and want to harm him, and yet, again, he still doesn't fight you

 

[Jepilstiltskin]

It wouldn't work if he thinks whoever he's against is going to end the word, ala his Genocide fight.
Like it's not like you can't change SBA to force a character to actually fight.

It does depend on the threat, yes, but it's so highly specific that it barely accomplishes anything outside of its original context. Sans knows we're going to destroy the timeline through the reports he's seen, so he's fighting us specifically to prevent that outcome from ever happening.

But in a crossover match, would he have reports on every opponent? Probably not.

 

[First_Witch]

Why should this take precedent over SBA though.

Nah dont answer this, I can live without it. Just move Sans on.

Just know that Sans would had gotten dusted withouth that Turn nonsense

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Sans still doesn't fight you unless you are over lvl 19

That's because there's no point, you're a timegod that's he has no chance of beating no matter what he does.

But SBA doesn't let you flee, and unless he just lets himself die, he's kinda forced to fight.

 

[XxZetsuxX]

That's because there's no point, you're a timegod that's he has no chance of beating anyway.

But SBA doesn't let you flee, and unless he just lets himself die, he's kinda forced to fight.

Well he is specifically breaking the 4th wall

You can't just invalidate an ability he has though

 

[Jepilstiltskin]

You say you technically agree that he attacks something that is done within your brain, you also say it's consistent with how he is portrayed??

I said “technically” in the sense of “kind of” or “approximately”, not as a claim that it is literally the exact same thing with 1000000% certainty. That's why I elaborated on the point in the rest of the text.

 

[Jepilstiltskin]

Why should this take precedent over SBA though.

Because Sans fleeing the battle is an actual winning condition. And since he's generally too lazy to fight things out the conventional way, he can use it to secure a victory instead.

It doesn't really violate SBA (I mostly said that in the thread to glaze him, honestly), but it does end up producing a very similar effect in practice.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

It does depend on the threat, yes, but it's so highly specific that it barely accomplishes anything outside of its original context. Sans knows we're going to destroy the timeline through the reports he's seen, so he's fighting us specifically to prevent that outcome from ever happening.

But in a crossover match, would he have reports on every opponent? Probably not.

The following are the assumptions to be made for battles in versus threads, if no alternative assumptions are specified by the thread creator. Assumptions alternative to these ones can be freely used, are equally legitimate, and threads using different assumptions can be added to profiles just like these ones can.

I'm saying if SBA isn't enough, we can just pull what we do with Darkners (Change SBA in someway) to force him to.

 

[XxZetsuxX]

I said “technically” in the sense of “kind of” or “approximately”, not as a claim that it is literally the exact same thing with 1000000% certainty. That's why I elaborated on the point in the rest of the text.

And i still don't get it

He attacks your decisions - Decisions are something you do with your brain - Therefore he is attacking you mentally - Somehow this isn't mind hax?

 

[Jepilstiltskin]

But SBA doesn't let you flee

It does if it secure you a victory. Read it carefully, brother.

 

[XxZetsuxX]

I'm saying if SBA isn't enough, we can just pull what we do with Darkners (Change SBA in someway) to force him to.

The OP didn't specify so uh, it's a wincon ig

 

[Jepilstiltskin]

I'm saying if SBA isn't enough, we can just pull what we do with Darkners (Change SBA in someway) to force him to.

Now, that would be limiting him. What are we doing.

 

[XxZetsuxX]

Now, that would be limiting him. What are we doing.

It's not against the rules though

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Now, that would be limiting him. What are we doing.

If a character had a super-god form during the day that let them kill everything within a 4 km radius and shrug off any attack, but their night form still had plenty of powers and could actually fight, you would be able use that night version for fights. Same with sans.

Like him just saying no to the fight is a fair bit less fun than him actually fighting ya know

 

[Jepilstiltskin]

He attacks your decisions - Decisions are something you do with your brain - Therefore he is attacking you mentally - Somehow this isn't mind hax?

He attacks Frisk's soul, which is located within the battle system. He's not necessarily attacking their mind. Let me simplify the analogy. A attacks B in a hand-to-hand fight, but B dies and goes to heaven. A isn't satisfied with that result, however, and knows exactly where B is. So instead of attacking B on the battlefield, A attacks B at his new location.

The same logic applies here. When Frisk's turn ends, their soul is still present within the battle system, the space where the interactive commands (FIGHT, ACT, ITEM, MERCY) exist. Sans knows where that space is and is capable of interacting with it. So rather than attacking Frisk during their turn, he simply attacks the soul from that location instead.

 

[XxZetsuxX]

If a character had a super-god form during the day that let them kill everything within a 4 km radius and shrug off any attack, but their night form still had plenty of powers and could actually fight, you would be able use that night version for fights. Same with sans.

Like him just saying no to the fight is a fair bit less fun than him actually fighting ya know

let him win against tier 1 characters in peace

 

[XxZetsuxX]

He attacks Frisk's soul, which is located within the battle system. He's not necessarily attacking their mind. Let me simplify the analogy. A attacks B in a hand-to-hand fight, but B dies and goes to heaven. A isn't satisfied with that result, however, and knows exactly where B is. So instead of attacking B on the battlefield, A attacks B at his new location.

The same logic applies here. When Frisk's turn ends, their soul is still present within the battle system, the space where the interactive commands (FIGHT, ACT, ITEM, MERCY) exist. Sans knows where that space is and is capable of interacting with it. So rather than attacking Frisk during their turn, he simply attacks the soul from that location instead.

I still don't get but sure ig

 

[Jepilstiltskin]

If a character had a super-god form during the day that let them kill everything within a 4 km radius and shrug off any attack, but their night form still had plenty of powers and could actually fight, you would be able use that night version for fights. Same with sans.

Like him just saying no to the fight is a fair bit less fun than him actually fighting ya know

I guess this is alright, but it's gonna be another CRT. Maybe you could make one for it if you think it's worth pursuing.

 

[XxZetsuxX]

I guess this is alright, but it's gonna be another CRT. Maybe you could make one for it if you think it's worth pursuing.

It doesn't require a CRT

You can just create a scenario where Sans actually needs fights instead of fleeing

 

[Jepilstiltskin]

It doesn't require a CRT

Yes, it does, bro.

 

[XxZetsuxX]

Yes, it does.

No, SBA is optional

Again, you can create scenarios where Sans actually engages in a fight

 

[ARandomDude127]

SBA is optional

Pretty sure SBA only really applies if you either don’t elaborate on certain aspects or just GENUINELY half ass the matchup and just put the two characters together with no added context

 

[XxZetsuxX]

Pretty sure SBA only really applies if you either don’t elaborate on certain aspects or just GENUINELY half ass the matchup and just put the two characters together with no added context

Yes, you can add context for the match AKA scenarios