- 19,280
- 11,978
It has been over 2 years ever since I tried to delete the Chrono verse from the wiki (which is the series containing Chrono Trigger, Chrono Cross and Radical Dreamers), with poor scaling and general bad formatting for basically all the profiles besides Lavos (but even that is bad).
The reason why the thread was closed was due to some resistance and me eventually giving up due to me believing I'll eventually fix the verse. Turns out that these plans will not happen anytime soon and it's not guaranteed I'll ever do in the future, given that I am currenltly not interested in the verse as I was before and I have to replay those games anyway.
There are also other wrong things with the profiles:
The literal protagonist of Chrono Trigger has his page as a complete wasteland with 5 scans at most, and the other ones also have the same problem (without including how the whole thing about the dimensional Vortex is how in this optional fight we have Crono, Marle and Lucca getting a power-up prior to fighting the Dream Devourer unlike the other party members, yet they're all scaled to the DD causing some circular scaling, but let's ignore that because I get pissed off even more).
The Chrono Cross protagonist is also the same, and let's ignore this pitful excuse of a profile too filled of guessworks for the stats with no scans.
The profiles also seem to assume that the protagonists' stats are all static and remain the same, when it's obviously not the case: Chrono Trigger and Chrono Cross both are RPGs that like many others are centered about leveling, growth and development of one's abilities and arsenal, they're not obviously End Game level from day 1, and profiles fail to showcase this growth by lacking keys that emphatize said growth. It's bad, man, really bad.
Last VS Thread was done in January 2024 (aka over 2 years ago) and was mostly a spite match, and last CRTs were done in February and March 2023 respectively, aka over 3 years ago.
Plus all the supporters are inactive and don't care of this verse:
SvTFOE was deleted for basically the same reason so this shouldn't have an opposition either, especially when no one is remotely interested in fixing this mess.
Neutral (0;0):
Disagree (0;0):
The reason why the thread was closed was due to some resistance and me eventually giving up due to me believing I'll eventually fix the verse. Turns out that these plans will not happen anytime soon and it's not guaranteed I'll ever do in the future, given that I am currenltly not interested in the verse as I was before and I have to replay those games anyway.
The scaling is horrendeous
Basically, the entire verse is Low 2-C by 3 feats, which are the following:- FATE messing up the Dead Sea, an entire rejected timeline that was brought back from nonexistence and then returned to it by FATE's interference.
- Lynx supposedly erasing a timeline with ForeverZero.
- Lavos massively upscaling from these feats as the Frozen Flame is simply a splinter of its shell, having broken away from the whole during his landfall in the Prehistoric Ages, with the Frozen Flame empowering FATE and allowing her to perform the aforementioned Low 2-C feat.
The profile does not give evidence on why the Frozen Flame is related to FATE (however I do, twice), but it convenently cuts away a pretty crucial piece of information: Lavos gets constantly empowered from absorbing stuff like energy, magic, living beings or also dreams (which are the Type 1 concepts that are the origin of all reality, but profiles don't say why they are Type 1 concepts lol), and thanks to the latter and merging with Schala, Lavos became first the Dream Devourer, and then the Time Devourer. This is highly relevant because Lavos evolved twice, and the is Frozen Flame is directly connected to Lavos, and because of this who gets it gets connected to the entity, gaining extraordinary powers. It should be noted that the latter statement mentions the Time Devourer directly than any previous form, which is important given that it means that FATE was empowered by the Time Devourer, and not Lavos' base state which is fought in Chrono Trigger.
The idea of Base Lavos not scaling from Cross' feats is also something that is showcased by the verse's internal powerscaling across both games, which the profiles keep ignoring in order to maintain this agenda that scaling is actually not linear and that everyone who cleared Trigger is unsourmontably above everyone in Cross that is not the Time Devourer:
A possible counter of this is that Lavos absorbed the power of the Earth, thus being already stronger than the Dragon God (the boss that is fought instantly before facing the final battle in Cross against the Time Devourer), which is the embodiment of the planet's energy and the 6 colors of the elements, meaning that Base Lavos > Dragon God. However, this assumes that the story of Cross was already in mind at the time of Trigger's development, but one of Kato's statements in the same GamePro interview says otherwise:
I believe it is clear that base Lavos retro-actively scaling from basically the second strongest boss of the next game was nowhere hinted to be the intention just because of a very coincidental statement, especially when the Dragon God was effectively absorbed from Lavos only when the latter was in the Darkness Beyond Time, and in that place he was already merging with Schala. Meaning that the DG has real links only with the Time Devourer, the lesser Lavos forms have literally no business here.
Plus, like this, the powerscaling ends up infinitely simplier: End Game CT Cast defeat Lavos -> End Game CT cast gets defeated from Mid Game CC Bosses -> Mid Game CC Bosses get vastly surpassed by the playable cast who will eventually square up against Lavos' strongest form.
The current scaling instead makes up this abomination: Time Devourer > Lavos > Dragon God > Lynx > Lucca ~ Lavos.
The idea of Base Lavos not scaling from Cross' feats is also something that is showcased by the verse's internal powerscaling across both games, which the profiles keep ignoring in order to maintain this agenda that scaling is actually not linear and that everyone who cleared Trigger is unsourmontably above everyone in Cross that is not the Time Devourer:
- After enough leveling in the game, Lavos can be defeated at the end of the game from also just one or two party members, with Lucca being one of these. It should be remembered that Chrono Trigger's ending is mainly in 1000 AD.
- In Chrono Cross it was mentioned that 10 years ago Serge's death caused the universe to split in 2 counterparts, one where he died, and one where he still lived. It was revealed that the reason why this split happened was due to Schala meddling with his death with time travel shenanigans, which included also sending a daughter-clone who is Kid. This is important as Kid and Serge are 16 and 17 years old respectively, and Lucca has adopted the baby Kid right after the end of the game. However, when Kid was still a child, something bad happened. It's implied that he killed her, and it's why Kid hates Lynx like a lot and keeps to chase him.
- Similairly, as shown in one of the endings, in 1005 AD the Kingdom of Guardia fell after an attack from Porre's forces (with a statement in Cross even saying that Guardia is no longer in peace). It is indeed relevant because Chrono and Marle became the king and queen of the kingdom at the end of the game, and to get even more into this unfortunate coincidence, the ghosts of Crono, Marle and Lucca appear repeatedly across Crono Cross, with this being one of the most important showings. It also does not help that Masato Kato (the creator of the series) heavily implied that Crono and Marle died right because of the invasion of Porre in a GamePro interview:
Throughout the game, whenever characters from Chrono Trigger are mentioned, they are talked about as if they are dead. I can understand this with Lucca. However, shouldn't Crono and Marle still be alive? This game takes place twenty years after the plot action of Chrono Trigger, correct? Then, why are the Chrono Trigger characters talked about as if they are dead?
Question From: The Mad Druid [email protected]
Masato Kato: This is another difficult question. (laughs) The fate of Crono and Marle is not thoroughly explained in Chrono Cross, but taking into consideration the fall of the Kingdom of Guardia and the rise of Porre's militarism on the main continent, there is a good chance the two friends may have been involved in some kind of incident.
- Last, but not least, the characters who are involved in the deaths of the end-game CT protagonists are all characters that are fought and/or recluted even early in CC. Lynx is someone who we fight and defeat as one of the first main bosses in Chrono Cross and Serge is even forced to use his body for around half of the entire game's story, without taking in account all the leveling and improvement that he gets in said body. Plus we recruit character who are indeed officiers of the Porre Army, such as Viper and Norris.
A possible counter of this is that Lavos absorbed the power of the Earth, thus being already stronger than the Dragon God (the boss that is fought instantly before facing the final battle in Cross against the Time Devourer), which is the embodiment of the planet's energy and the 6 colors of the elements, meaning that Base Lavos > Dragon God. However, this assumes that the story of Cross was already in mind at the time of Trigger's development, but one of Kato's statements in the same GamePro interview says otherwise:
This idea is also supported by the fact that Elements were not a thing in Trigger at all. They are basically special attacks that can be "equipped" to quite literally every character in specific slots in order to make up their movepool (aka something similar to Pokémon 4-moves placement but with more placements and much more customizable), but in Trigger instead we have Techs, which are instead the characters' innate abilties that can be unlocked by leveling up.
I believe it is clear that base Lavos retro-actively scaling from basically the second strongest boss of the next game was nowhere hinted to be the intention just because of a very coincidental statement, especially when the Dragon God was effectively absorbed from Lavos only when the latter was in the Darkness Beyond Time, and in that place he was already merging with Schala. Meaning that the DG has real links only with the Time Devourer, the lesser Lavos forms have literally no business here.
Plus, like this, the powerscaling ends up infinitely simplier: End Game CT Cast defeat Lavos -> End Game CT cast gets defeated from Mid Game CC Bosses -> Mid Game CC Bosses get vastly surpassed by the playable cast who will eventually square up against Lavos' strongest form.
The current scaling instead makes up this abomination: Time Devourer > Lavos > Dragon God > Lynx > Lucca ~ Lavos.
Even then, the Low 2-C feats in question are not that valid.
- The FATE thing fails to prove why it is a direct result of physical Attack Potency and why is it not just a case of EE and/or BFR in the void of nonexistence beyond dimensions.
- ForeverZero does nowhere showcase the obliteration of a whole timeline, just of a 4-A pocket dimension and gives no link to the Darkness Beyond Time anyway.
- The entire verse is MHS+ by scaling to lightning, but if you check the profiles, you see no evidence linked to any of them. However, as I played the games, I know that it refers to Crono's lightning attacks, but if you see the attacks in question, you'll notice that no one really reacts to them, making it Attack Speed at best and that none scales to them in Combat in Reactions.
- The verse page uses fanarts for both the main banner and the character pics which are all uncredited, which sucks and a similar issue forced Pokémon to undergo a process to replace also the fanarts used in the verse page for the same reason. We have many tight rules about the usage of fanarts, and Chrono violates a lot of them. Also for some reason FATE and Lynx lack a place in the verse page because... reasons.
- The Low 1-C rating on Lavos is bad because of multiple reasons:
- It is 6D which is 1-C anyway.
- Zurvan being +1D the multiverse is bad because it all relies on the "container" argument, which is not the case anymore.
- The temporal dimensions standards changed ever since, and I don't think it qualifies anymore anyway by what's shown in the profiles.
The quality of the pages is not negative, but even below that
Even if we completely ignore the nonsensical scaling, the pages are all horrible.The literal protagonist of Chrono Trigger has his page as a complete wasteland with 5 scans at most, and the other ones also have the same problem (without including how the whole thing about the dimensional Vortex is how in this optional fight we have Crono, Marle and Lucca getting a power-up prior to fighting the Dream Devourer unlike the other party members, yet they're all scaled to the DD causing some circular scaling, but let's ignore that because I get pissed off even more).
The Chrono Cross protagonist is also the same, and let's ignore this pitful excuse of a profile too filled of guessworks for the stats with no scans.
The profiles also seem to assume that the protagonists' stats are all static and remain the same, when it's obviously not the case: Chrono Trigger and Chrono Cross both are RPGs that like many others are centered about leveling, growth and development of one's abilities and arsenal, they're not obviously End Game level from day 1, and profiles fail to showcase this growth by lacking keys that emphatize said growth. It's bad, man, really bad.
None cares of this verse anyway
Outside of the Top 15 strongest characters thread, none cares of this verse.Last VS Thread was done in January 2024 (aka over 2 years ago) and was mostly a spite match, and last CRTs were done in February and March 2023 respectively, aka over 3 years ago.
Plus all the supporters are inactive and don't care of this verse:
- @OnsokunoSonic and @The_real_cal_howard are all inactive from a long long time
- @Ultima_Reality and @Jinsye have completely abandoned the verse since years
- All the other knowledgeable members have expressed 0 interest in reviving the verse as well
Conclusion
Verse is almost scanless, uses outdated standards for important stats, the ratings are all wrong, the chainscaling makes no sense, it breaks almost all of our fanart rules, the profiles are all incomplete and fail to showcase an accurate indexing of the characters, and it just brings misinformation with evidence that is both lacking and misleading.SvTFOE was deleted for basically the same reason so this shouldn't have an opposition either, especially when no one is remotely interested in fixing this mess.
Vote tally
Agree (1;4.5): @Re5yh, @DarkDragonMedeus, @SomebodyData (only as a last resort), @ActuallySpaceMan42, @Oblivion_Of_The_Endless, @Vietthai96Neutral (0;0):
Disagree (0;0):
Last edited:
