Congratulation, you've successfully proved that the anti-feat, exists.
Seriously, what exactly do you want me to do with the fact that the anti-feat is given an explicit weight, shown to matter, yada yada yada.
No shit it does, that’s the whole reason it’s considered an anti-feat in the first place.
If it didn’t have any narrative or evidential weight (Heh get it) behind it, then it wouldn’t even qualify as an anti-feat. It’d be NOTHING.
For the sake of the example let's say, the first King Kai 10G thing, 612kg Goku.
Frequency matters a whole lot less than the fact that if we choose to go your route and take it as the truth, take a guess what happens to ALL those DB calcs, that you distinctly didn't debunk? (In your first post at least, haven't gotten to the second one yet)
They get discarded. Swept aside as if they never happened. That's what being an outlier entails.
By prioritizing this anti-feat and the others like it, you end up invalidating a huge amount of already established scaling, for OG DB at least.
Thus, it gets the name, anti-feat.
Can you chill dude? Shit ain't that serious. Still though, you're being circular.
You're calling them anti-feats because you already assume the higher calc pile is the real scale.
That's the very thing being contested.
Also no, frequency absolutely matters when the point is that this is
not one random awkward scene.
If it was one isolated 10G scene against a giant pile of direct, comparable lifts, that'd be fine, maybe call it an anti-feat and move on.
But when the same kind of weight/load/gravity logic keeps coming back across the manga, frequency is
exactly why it can't just be brushed aside as one random low outlier (for example, the Goku bullet, THAT would be the type of example that would be fine to ignore).
A lower showing isn't automatically an anti-feat just because a higher calc exists somewhere else.
And the fact these scenes have narrative weight doesn't make them worse evidence.
That makes them better evidence.
A random gag low showing with no narrative focus is easy to dismiss. A stated weight that matters to training, struggle, progression, or failure is much harder to dismiss. And if that thing is repeated time and time again, it becomes almost impossible to ignore.
Calling that an "anti-feat" doesn't change the fact it's one of the most explicit kinds of LS evidence the manga gives consistently.
Not to mention, this only actually becomes an anti-feat if the higher scale is
more direct,
more consistent,
more comparable, and
more representative of how the series treats that stat.
By this same logic all your feats count as outliers because they're higher than the generally stated progression.
You need to actually prove this.
What we have here is:
- direct weights,
- shown struggle,
- training burdens,
- gravity loads,
- failed lifts,
- later caps,
against:
- car lifts,
- boulder pushes,
- rock crushing,
- dynamic throws,
- jumps,
- TK,
- giant body movement,
- object damage,
- and calcs from action panels.
You don't get to skip the evidence-weighting step by calling the direct chain "anti-feats" first. In that same vein, everything you posted is an "outlier", they must all be ignored because we don't count outliers.
Absurd way to argue, is it not?
Also, yes, if one side is prioritized, the other side gets hit. That's not unique to my side.
If I take the direct weight/gravity chain seriously, some higher calcs become suspect.
If you take the high calc pile seriously, then all the direct weight scenes, training burdens, failed lifts, and stated caps become suspect.
So "your side discards feats" means nothing by itself. Your side discards evidence too. The only question is which evidence deserves priority.
And "already established scaling" isn't a defense?
The entire point of this CRT is that existing indexing
can be wrong, incomplete, or based on worse evidence.
That is
literally why CRTs exist.
Yeah we know "but that's the current scale", that's the very thing being challenged?
But that isn't actually true anyway, the anti-feats,
are feats. And there's plenty of feats that don't align with your intent.
Also, why are you making sweeping claims before reading the full reply if you haven't even gotten to the reply that was mostly at
you?
If the second post directly addresses several of the examples, then "you didn't debunk them yet" isn't a point. It just means you're responding before finishing the material.
And mind you, do you want me to? There's a handful of faulty examples given from a calc-basis, it'd take me a few days, but I could systematically go over every single one?
I already did for a few them, so is that really what we want here? I might be willing, but at the same time, that doesn't actually matter to the main argument? If we're talking about debunking, why aren't
you debunking stuff that's not
just shown, but also stated? Both at once even.
Indeed! That would be a bad argument. It's almost like... I never even argued it?
Eh, if ya say so man.
I do not care what Goku later did with the weights, or any other nonsense. My problem with this face right here,
simply putting on the weights visibly encumbered him.
That is complete nonsense. It makes no sense whatsoever.
Do you think the big stwong man that you are, would look visibly strained if I put my 4 kg cat on your back? Of course not! You would barely even notice it.
You're still attacking the wrong claim. Can you stop acting like disbelief is a counterargument?
Nobody is saying the shell, clothing, or 10G examples are all literal max lifts.
- Training burden / worn weight = soft threshold.
- Failed lift / directly stated too-much load = hard cap.
Those are
not the same thing.
A 20 kg shell being relevant doesn't mean Goku caps at 20 kg. It means 20 kg is still a meaningful burden in the context of sustained training, movement, running, swimming, labor, balance, stamina, and fighting.
A 4 kg cat on my back once is not the same kind of thing. Hell if ya put a cat on my back and made me climb a few cliffs it would probably suck, no?
A better comparison would be wearing a meaningful load across your body for hours while doing constant physical work, then sparring with it on.
And again, the point is not "20 kg is his max".
The point is that if early Goku were secretly operating at hundreds, thousands, or hundreds of thousands of tons, then 20 kg would
not be a meaningful training burden at all.
Same with later weights.
115 kg clothing in 10G being important, Buu Saga weights mattering, 40 tons being too much for Base Goku, and 1,000 tons stopping Vegeta are not random nothing scenes. The manga keeps using weight/load burdens as a real thing.
You can say it feels weird. I agree it feels weird.
But "I don't like that this visibly affected him" does not change that it visibly affected him.
And also, the face? Where's he's off balance because of it? He isn't struggling per se, but putting it on his back had him wobble? Like surely you can't be willing to strawman that badly?
Well, it's not a difference of a hundred times, the Pilaf Saga boulders are like, max x6 the car lift? The big boulders are after the Roshi training.
I hate to say this but, you realize several of your own feats exist from before those right? Like Goku's boulder crush in chapter 3 is listed as Class M.
Unless, you're going to argue that a calc contradicts the general showings and
stated progression, but at that point, what are you even arguing? That'd just be admitting they aren't that reliable.
It's frankly an absurd standard, one YOU don't even follow yourself.
What's a better example than a page you reworked from the ground up,
Raiden.
Raiden is one strong guy, ain't he?
Class T,
12 BILLION TONS. Ah but what is this?
Raiden exerting lots of effort, grunting and everything to slam the Metal Gear EXCELSUS, and the numbers say this is only a measly
200 million tons, weird. And what is this? Raiden, with
another button mash and lots of grunts, ripping off it's limb for...
60 million tons? Well can't get much worse than that, right?
700,000 tons,
Class M, for swinging its blade, something Raiden clearly
exerts effort doing given how much he overextends himself.
See the problem now?
Yeah, I see the problem: this example
does not compare to DB's situation.
But you should actually engage the topics instead of pointing out stuff that's just going to backfire. Like why are you trying to use the dude who's lowest stated cap is over 600,000 tons in a form stated magnitudes weaker.
What are you trying to pull here?
You just confirmed that you really don't have an argument here, and you keep acting as if tackling stuff I deal with like Jolyne or Raiden will help your point. It never will, I apply the same scrutiny to all the shit I work on. It's why I ain't making OOT Link Class K for tossing rocks hard enough to shatter them as a toddler when he puts effort in moving 50 ton blocks which is a far more direct feat, why Jolyne has gotta go too, yeah the baseball throw is Class K for example, but is it consistent with her caps and portrayal? If she had that LS, she could bend bars quite easily but can't.
Your Raiden example fails incomprehensibly.
EXCELSUS
does not have an explicit stated weight that Raiden struggles with.
Those numbers
are also calcs.
That is one calc being lower than another calc, not a direct stated load cap going against higher calcs
if we went by statements it'd be millions of tons minimum fyi, the CNT statement just conflicts with that, you really do not want to argue something like this if you aren't certain whatbro actually has. Especially with the recent doc that'd put even MGS4 Raiden at Class T due to some new lore.
That isn't the same thing as Dragon Ball directly giving weights, showing those weights matter, and then repeating that same weight/load logic later.
If Raiden struggled with something explicitly stated to weigh 10,000 tons, and that was part of a repeated load/progression thing across the series, then yes, his higher Class T stuff would have to go too.
Kind of the point. In fact that's
why we're going to be downgrading Snake's LS come soon. Your attempt to try to pull some sort of gotcha is honestly somewhat insulting.
Also, Raiden is a terrible example for this anyway, because he can manhandle huge mechs, some of them being stated millions of tons as well (like Outer Haven). The high-end idea is at least coming from the same general kind of portrayal: grabbing, lifting, throwing, ripping, and overpowering giant machines, which
unlike DBZ, they explain the scientific basis of as well but that's really not relevant. Not all verses are as straightforward with physics as the verse that will spend 58 minutes explaining pressure differences.
Dragon Ball's high pile is not like that.
It's a pile of mixed mechanics.
A car lift, a boulder push, a pillar throw, a jump, a TK feat, a giant form moving, object deformation, and a static failed lift are not all the same type of LS evidence. Several of Raiden's outright involving messing with large weights.
Also, we absolutely
do use direct caps and context over higher-looking calcs in other cases?
Human Raiden is
not treated as FTL just because some FTL-looking stuff exists, because the direct story context and caps make that suspect. If we were to allow any high feat to conflict with statements or lower showings, but use it anyway, even Solid Snake would be FTL.
Also, your Raiden comparison is a difference in degree, not type.
Those are all still broadly "Raiden physically interacts with giant machines" feats.
DB's pile isn't that. It jumps between static burdens, worn weights, boulder calcs, throws, jumps, TK, giant form movement, and object destruction. So even before the stated-weight issue, the analogy is already irrelevant.
So no, "the math says so" isn't really much of a point, the math says a lot of things, it's also subject to scrutiny and consistency.
But all the same, a calc is
not the manga.
The manga shows Tao throwing a pillar. The 449k value is
our model of that scene.
The manga shows a stated load being too much. The weight value is
not our model. It is directly given.
There's a very clear difference here.
If the math is on a feat that
conflicts with direct stated-and-shown caps, then the calc needs scrutiny.
I ain't saying "throw it away only because Toriyama didn't know the math".
The point is that when a calc-based interpretation
conflicts with repeated direct stated-and-shown limits, the calc
does not automatically win just because it's "bigger".
That's normal.
The manga isn't just the action panel you want to calc.
The manga is
also the stated weight, the visible struggle, the training setup, the failed lift, and the later cap.
All valid feats. We are not indexing what the author thinks the characters strength or speed should be.
What we index is the manga itself. The feats that are actually shown in the manga stand on their own merits.
If the math says they're this strong, then they are this strong. If the math is faulty, we fix it.
We have never and we will never, thrown away feats cause the author didn’t know the exact numerical implications behind them, because frankly, almost no author does.
This is a battle of anti-feats vs. feats. Nothing more. Nothing less.
No, it's not.
That framing only works if we accept your labels before doing the analysis which ain't gonna happen.
It's not:
It is:
- direct stated-and-shown LS evidence
vs
- less direct calc-based LS-looking evidence.
- A failed lift is a feat.
- A stated load being too much is evidence.
- A training burden visibly limiting movement is evidence.
- A gravity load being calculated in-universe and treated as hard to endure is evidence.
You're not going to get to call all of that "anti-feats" and then act like only the higher calcs are "feats".
Both sides are evidence.
The question is which side is better though?
A direct weight scene is more relevant than a rock deformation calc.
A failed lift is more relevant than a dynamic throw.
A stated load with visible effort is more relevant than a background-size calc.
A repeated training progression is more relevant than isolated action panels.
That's not ignoring feats, it's actually indexing properly.
That's pretty easy.
And after that while they show more feats, alas none exceed Tao. Until we get Vegeta, Cell, Buu, the Megath, Gomah, etc. Those need calcs and recals tho.
Though if we discount the Blue
AND Tao feats, I suppose they'd just upscale over Great Ape Goku's other Class M feat at
59K tons.
And it ends up being this high, I have no doubt the Great Ape Gohan feat would also be decently high too once you factor in the throw.
This is
exactly the problem.
That is
not a chain.
What you're doing is cherry-picking the highest calc from each section,
ignoring the lower feats
literally surrounding them, and then calling the result "consistent progression".
Pilaf Saga: 3.3 tons?
No, not
even by your own examples.
By your own pile, and hell even some stuff on the verse page right now, Pilaf Saga also has higher
Class M-ish stuff from the boulder crush/tree stump type feats, right? So why is the arc suddenly only 3.3 tons here?
I'll tell you why.
Because the higher Pilaf values make the arc
immediately contradict itself even without the OP's chain.
Same arc, same general stage, and you have stuff like:
- Goku struggling hard with a sub-1 ton car,
- Goku doing a few-ton boulder feat almost right there,
- higher boulder/tree/etc. calcs if you push them which you have given that's the entire argument per your own words,
- and even random showings like Yamcha outright failing to even budge a 170 ton object that according to some of the examples you've been using, he should be able to just fine
Not "he lifted it with difficulty".
Not "he moved it a bit".
He couldn't budge it.
So already, in the arc you're trying to cleanly label "3.3 tons", the actual pile selection of random calc feats is
not coherent. It's a mess of low-ton struggle, higher calc interpretations, and some outright actual anti-feats.
That's not a stable scaling point.
Then Post-Roshi Training: 230 tons?
Again, okay, and then what? A stronger Goku later puts serious full-body effort into flipping Giant Piccolo, who is apparently only 116 tons by calc. So are we pretending that doesn't matter now? Not like Piccolo was throwing his weight around either, he was taken off guard and it just kind of happened.
Kid Goku can do 230 tons from one calc, but later stronger Goku has to visibly try against something literally half that?
That's not a consistent chain. That's simply just calcs contradicting the effort and context around them.
Then Post-Korin Training: 449k tons?
Yeah ok so, bit off there, Tao's pillar
is not a progression point, it's the single biggest sign your method is broken.
Tao's pillar jumps to hundreds of thousands of tons, then much stronger characters across later Dragon Ball and Z keep having effort scenes, failures, and plot-relevant weight struggles that
are nowhere near that.
If Tao's pillar is the intended lifting scale at that point, then:
- Giant Piccolo being 116 tons is nonsense.
- The Z-Sword being difficult is nonsense.
- The Buu Saga weight scene is nonsense.
- Magetta being 1,000 tons and stopping Vegeta is nonsense.
- Half your own examples become nonsense as they're not just lower, they're after Tao too.
Even a bunch of your own later "high" examples become nonsense because Tao would be sitting absurdly above or around things much later characters
still put effort into.
You just proved a major issue in fact.
You're
not proving a consistent high chain.
You're proving that if you grab the highest calc you can find, and ignore every lower or contradictory interaction around it, you can force a bigger number.
Yep, anyone can do that.
But that still isn't actual analysis.
A real chain would be something like:
- Pilaf Saga characters consistently around X,
- then Post-Roshi consistently higher than X,
- then Post-Korin consistently higher than Post-Roshi,
- then King Piccolo consistently higher than Tao,
- then Saiyan Saga consistently higher,
- then Namek consistently higher,
- then Buu consistently higher,
- etc.
Or at the very least not
contradict themselves 5 seconds later.
That isn't what you're showing.
What you're showing is:
- Pilaf has low-ton effort, possible higher calcs, and a 170 ton failure.
- Post-Roshi has a high calc but later effort against something lower.
- Tao has a massive pillar calc that blows past Giant Piccolo by thousands of times.
- Then later Z has multiple heavy-object scenes far below Tao that still matter.
- Then DBS has Magetta at 1,000 tons still functioning as an anti-cap.
- Then later random high-looking feats pop up again.
Dude, what you doing?
And saying "none exceed Tao until Vegeta, Cell, Buu, Magetta, Gomah, etc." is not helping your case.
EXACTLY.
You are basically
admitting your own scale has Tao sitting at the top for 99% of the franchise, while a ton of later scenes involving much stronger characters still involve way lower weights being relevant.
Huge contradiction there.
You don't get to say "until much later" like it fixes anything.
The issue is what happens in the middle.
If Tao is hundreds of thousands of tons, then:
- Why is later Goku putting effort into Giant Piccolo at 116 tons by calc?
- Why is the Z-Sword a meaningful struggle if its direct drop/ground interaction gives far lower values?
- Why are Buu Saga characters treating dozens of tons as relevant?
- Why is SSJ Gohan vein-popping with a few hundred tons by calc?
- Why is Magetta's 1,000 tons still an issue in Super?
- Why is Goku using a few tons in Super weightage?
- Why is throwing buildings something that has stronger characters actively strain despite them weighing dozens of times less?
- Etc.
- Why do your own examples have much later characters doing far lower stuff with effort?
You can't just skip from Tao to "eventually higher stuff exists later" and pretend the entire middle section doesn't matter?
And no, Cell's TK feat, honestly kind of insulting you outright acted like i didn't touch upon that at all and still push for it.
It is TK. Fine feat for TK, not conventional physical LS.
The Vegeta building thing also doesn't help you. If it's the DBS "tap"/momentum thing, that's not a normal static lift. Treating that like clean lifting strength while throwing out direct heavy-object scenes is exactly the kind of selective nonsense being criticized. And if you mean Ultra Ego, well yeah, why wouldn't he do that? He's way stronger than Kale who can one hand 1,000 tons? Him doing that should be casual.
Buu actually does have a better LS feat, not like you'd know which, but he does. But even that is subject to the same problem: you still have to calc it and then compare it to the full context of the saga and not pretend it exists in a vacuum.
That same broad era gives you stuff like:
- Base Trunks having trouble under a few tons of effective burden,
- SSJ Trunks doing far better.
- Base Goku struggling below 40 tons,
- SSJ Goku being over 40 tons,
And then if we like calcs so much:
- the Z-Sword being difficult for characters around that tier,
- Gohan's Z-Sword handling calcing to only a few hundred tons depending on method,
- and Frieza-level characters not being able to handle the thing properly which still lines up.
So again, if your answer is "well this one calc is higher", that's not enough.
The problem is
not whether high calcs exist.
The OP already knows high calcs exist.
The problem is that your "chain" only works if you ignore:
- every lower showing,
- every failed movement,
- every plot-relevant weight struggle,
- every direct load value,
- every awkward anti-feat in-between the few high numbers you want,
- and half your own examples.
That is
not consistency.
That is
not progression.
That's just picking three high-end calcs, pretending they represent entire arcs, and then acting like the direct weight/gravity/load scenes are the weird part.
They're not.
The weird part is stuff like letting Tao sit at hundreds of thousands of tons, lets later characters struggle with vastly lower physical burdens, and then pretends the answer is:
- "Well, the highest calcs make a chain".
They don't. That very chain doesn't even last out of DB.
They contradict the surrounding feats just as badly, if not worse, than the OP's proposal supposedly does.
And if your defense is "well those lower scenes shouldn't count because they are awkward/inconvenient/uncertain", well, at that point you have no right to use uncertain high calcs as the main standard either.
You yourself, are now actively arguing a double standard.
Calcs are fine
as supporting evidence when they actually line up with the broader portrayal. Or if a verse don't got all this funny stuff, well then go wild, can't really contradict much at that point, can you?
But if the calcs are so internally inconsistent that the same pile gives you low-ton effort, 170 ton failure, 116 ton effort, 230 ton high-end, 449k ton Tao, few-hundred-ton Z-Sword struggle, 40 ton Base Goku cap, 1,000 ton Magetta failure, Class G TK, and random later momentum feats, then no, you do
not have a clean scale, you have but a mess.
The direct chain is being prioritized by the OP precisely because it is the one thing the manga
repeatedly treats as explicit, plot-relevant, and mechanically comparable:
- weight,
- gravity,
- load,
- struggle,
- failure,
- training progression,
- and later direct caps.
Your version is just:
- "ignore the bad-looking ones, take the highest calc, skip the middle, and call it progression."
Yeah no.
(Also remember the Makima and Link thread, try to avoid the man thing)
I actually don't ngl. Avoid what thing?
Anyway, here is but another example of some of the "high-end" pile being incoherent.
Here's a funny one.
Yamcha being
completely incapable of moving a 175t structure.
Not even lift, he
can't even make it budge which would require far,
far less. Despite the fact allegedly he's Class K to M by this point if we just wanna use any random feat or calc.
Mind you that 175t value is ironically accepted on verse page.
This scene is but one of many examples of DB's alleged high-pile being inconsistent even outside of the OP's suggested progression.
The blog puts the building chunk at 175.9428 metric tons. Ok cool.
If Yamcha was trying to lift one edge so Bulma could get out, with the other side still on the ground as the pivot, he would only need half the full load:
- 175.9428 / 2 = 87.9714 metric tons.
And that's generous, like extremely generous. Geometry, angle (some of it was already lifted a bit from debris), and even just the fact a mere 20 cm gap is more than enough as a reasonable bit for her to get out from under it.
If you want pushing/sliding instead, given the ground and stuff.
- 175.9428 * 0.3 = 52.78284 metric tons-force.
So even with a pretty whatever slide/push value, Yamcha would still be failing to move something in the dozens of metric tons range.
- Mind you, the thing's mass itself is below some of Pilaf Goku's "high" feats, yet Yamcha, who isn't that inferior, can't even do this.
- He did not free Bulma.
- He could not make it move a useful amount.
- This is not a feat for him, it's the opposite.
If they were Class M, or even K, this would be nothing to him. If he was even just
Class 5, he'd have been able to at least wiggle it a bit and shift it some but he couldn't,
he could do nothing.
If we just want to throw things at the wall and play a quantity game of contradictions, "feats", and more. That's going to open the gates to far more than just what the OP has, especially if it's to the extent all we care about is "what contradicts what".
If we're going to play the contradiction-counting game, the high-end side has a
lot of extra competition.
There are plenty of lower direct or semi-direct showings outside the OP's main chain too yet still conflict with you..
The OP isn't using all of them because the point was never "spam every low showing that disproves the high-stuff". The point was to use the
most repeated and explicit throughline.
But if the counterargument becomes "pile size", then it can get much, much worse.
Edit: It's worse chat. I forgot to factor in the roof was popped off.
Excluding the roof...
- Roofless building mass = 98.5338 metric tons
- Edge-lift load = 98.5338 / 2 = 49.2669 metric tons
And obviously much lower for just needing to budge it, which he couldn't, prob low Class 5 at maximum
to do it (which he didn't).
