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guidebook?
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Black Clover General Discussion thread
- Thread starter Shadowbokunohero
- Start date
-
- Tags
- black clover
TheTenno07
He/Him- 519
- 309
yeah, it'll came out in august
- 3,140
- 3,171
- 455
- 107
someone changed conrads dooms gate calc for a reduced value
- 3,140
- 3,171
I meant like, the crts for when the series are done
Kazuma_kuwabara
He/Him- 6,913
- 3,569
Clearly not, the series finished 2 days ago and I am searching scans just for you
And no idea if we are gonna wait for august to be fair
- 32
- 6
Hello! I thought some stuff up and wanted to share it. i wanna know what you guys think.
This discussion will mainly focus on Lucius Zogratis’ precognition, how it functions, and how it may relate to the deeper mechanics of Black Clover itself.
---
Asta as a “Flaw”
One of the strangest things introduced during Lucius Zogratis’ fight is the idea that Asta is a “flaw.”
Lucius identifies Asta as an irregularity specifically because he cannot properly perceive him through his precognition. From Lucius’ perspective, Asta is effectively absent from the futures he observes. The series directly ties this phenomenon to Asta’s lack of mana, making it clear that this absence is not random, but fundamental to why Lucius considers him a “flaw” in the first place.
But this immediately raises a question.
Why would lacking mana produce such an effect?
At first glance, mana simply appears to be a source of power used for magic. However, if the absence of mana alone is enough to interfere with Lucius Zogratis’ future sight, then mana must also function as something beyond mere energy.
To understand why Asta creates this contradiction, we first need to understand how precognition itself functions in Black Clover.
---
Julius Novachrono and Precognition
Although the exact mechanism behind Lucius Zogratis’ future sight is never directly explained, we already know another character who performs something very similar: Julius Novachrono.
Julius Novachrono is capable of perceiving the future by reading the future flow of mana itself. Through his Time Magic in combination with Mana Zone, he interprets the state and movement of mana to determine what is about to occur before it happens.
This is an extremely important detail because it establishes that mana in Black Clover carries information.
And with this, two important ideas immediately emerge:
1. Mana contains informational structure that can be interpreted.
2. Lucius Zogratis’ precognition likely functions through a similar principle.
However, this alone is still not enough to fully explain what Lucius is doing. To understand that, we need to look deeper into how mana itself is utilized throughout the series.
---
Mana Zone and Attribute-Specific Applications
In Black Clover, mana can be applied in many different ways depending on the attribute and skill of the user.
One of the simplest examples is sensory perception. Mana can be used to perceive and interpret the surrounding world itself. A good example is Yuno using mana perception while blinded, effectively visualizing the world around him through mana alone. This works because mana exists throughout the world itself and not just the atmosphere.
Then there is Mana Zone.
Mana Zone allows a mage to control and manipulate the mana present within the surrounding environment, and the applications of this technique often depend heavily on the user’s attribute.
For example, Langris uses Mana Zone alongside Spatial Magic to literally create and manipulate space itself. Yami utilizes Mana Zone in techniques such as Dimension Slash, while Zenon applies similar principles through Spatial Domination.
Other applications include enhanced perception, omnidirectional spell attacks, improved mobility, and more efficient spell casting.
The important thing here is not the individual techniques themselves, but the pattern behind them.
Mana Zone applications are often shaped by the user’s attribute.
Spatial attributes manipulate space (Langris creating space via mana zone).
Time attributes interact with time (Julius and in extension Lucius reading the future).
And in Julius Novachrono’s case, this manifests as the ability to perceive future mana flow itself.
This becomes extremely important once Lucius Zogratis enters the discussion.
Side note: this would later suggest lucius uses mana zone on a multiversal scale but yami has kinda done high universal scale stuff with mana zone in his fight with dorothy so its not so much of a long shot.
---
Lucius Zogratis and the Nature of His Precognition
Lucius Zogratis is capable of perceiving “futures,” but the exact nature of these futures is initially unclear.
However, once we begin examining the information provided throughout the manga, several strange details begin to emerge.
First, Lucius describes his ability actively, stating that he “foresees” futures rather than merely having seen them once in the past. This implies that his ability is not static memory, but an ongoing process of observation.
Second, Lucius perceives futures in which events differ drastically even from the current present itself. For example, despite Yuno already possessing two grimoires in the current timeline, Lucius observes multiple futures where Yuno simply never possesses them at all. In fact, according to Lucius, there is apparently only one future in which Yuno possesses two grimoires.
Already, this goes far beyond ordinary precognition.
But later chapters provide even more revealing information.
Lucius outright admits that the very world he currently inhabits can not be properly read. At the same time, the futures he perceives are described not merely as “possibilities,” but as entire “worlds.” More importantly, Lucius also possesses knowledge of the pasts belonging to these worlds as well.
Taken together, a pattern begins to emerge.
Lucius Zogratis is not simply observing branching possibilities from a single timeline. He is perceiving entirely different world-states, complete with their own histories, presents, and futures. Quick note we dont actually know how long it takes lucius to see them or even if he actually reads the timeline completely but yh you get the idea.
And yet, despite being able to perceive these worlds, the current world itself eventually becomes unreadable to him. That is, the future of the world.
Why?
Because of Asta.
---
The Power to See the Future
The moment Lucius Zogratis begins realizing events are deviating from his predictions, his reaction is extremely revealing.
When Yuno avoids an attack that Lucius clearly considered unavoidable, Lucius does not simply adjust his expectations or “recalculate” new possibilities. Instead, he immediately begins recognizing multiple inconsistencies between reality and what he previously foresaw.
Rather than treating these as minor deviations, Lucius outright admits that the world itself can not be read.
This reaction is extremely important.
If Lucius Zogratis were merely observing branching possibilities or probabilistic outcomes, small inconsistencies should not fundamentally disrupt his ability. He would simply shift toward another possible future.
But that is not what happens.
Instead, Lucius reacts as though the entire predictive structure itself is dead.
This strongly suggests that Lucius Zogratis does not perceive countless fluctuating possibilities from a single timeline, but rather observes one determined future per world-state.
And this is where Asta becomes important.
Imagine a closed system in which the state of every particle is known perfectly. In such a system, future states could theoretically be calculated with complete accuracy.
Now imagine there is one unknown particle that cannot be accounted for.
Even if every other variable remains known, the moment that unknown element begins interacting with the system, future calculations become increasingly unreliable. Predictions no longer represent certainty, but approximations.
Asta functions as this unknown variable.
Because he lacks mana, he cannot be properly integrated into the informational structure Lucius Zogratis relies upon to observe the future. However, despite being absent from the system itself, Asta still interacts with the world around him, influencing events and altering outcomes.
And as those changes propagate through the system, Lucius Zogratis’ predictions begin breaking down entirely.
Another way to understand this is through a programming analogy.
Imagine auditing the code of a standard website built entirely with HTML, CSS, and JavaScript. Everything appears completely normal until a Python-specific function suddenly appears within the JavaScript itself.
A standard browser would not know how to properly interpret that function because it exists outside the system the browser is designed to process.
Now imagine another engine capable of interpreting both the standard website code and the Python function simultaneously. Naturally, the output produced by this second engine would differ entirely from what the standard browser originally predicted.
In this analogy:
Asta is not absent from reality.
He is simply something Lucius Zogratis’ system cannot properly interpret.
---
Conclusion
Lucius Zogratis’ precognition extends far beyond ordinary future sight. His ability allows him to perceive not only futures, but complete world-states with their own pasts, presents, and futures.
However, this same ability also appears to rely upon the interpretation of a complete informational system tied to mana itself.
Asta’s lack of mana creates a contradiction within that system.
Because he cannot be properly integrated into Lucius Zogratis’ perception, Asta functions as an unaccounted variable whose influence continuously alters the very world Lucius attempts to observe.
And once that contradiction begins affecting reality itself, Lucius Zogratis’ ability to “read the world” collapses entirely.
Now a bunch of stuff was talked about and obviously thoughts are flying. i really dont know how well i would be able to respond but ill try my best.
This discussion will mainly focus on Lucius Zogratis’ precognition, how it functions, and how it may relate to the deeper mechanics of Black Clover itself.
---
Asta as a “Flaw”
One of the strangest things introduced during Lucius Zogratis’ fight is the idea that Asta is a “flaw.”
Lucius identifies Asta as an irregularity specifically because he cannot properly perceive him through his precognition. From Lucius’ perspective, Asta is effectively absent from the futures he observes. The series directly ties this phenomenon to Asta’s lack of mana, making it clear that this absence is not random, but fundamental to why Lucius considers him a “flaw” in the first place.
But this immediately raises a question.
Why would lacking mana produce such an effect?
At first glance, mana simply appears to be a source of power used for magic. However, if the absence of mana alone is enough to interfere with Lucius Zogratis’ future sight, then mana must also function as something beyond mere energy.
To understand why Asta creates this contradiction, we first need to understand how precognition itself functions in Black Clover.
---
Julius Novachrono and Precognition
Although the exact mechanism behind Lucius Zogratis’ future sight is never directly explained, we already know another character who performs something very similar: Julius Novachrono.
Julius Novachrono is capable of perceiving the future by reading the future flow of mana itself. Through his Time Magic in combination with Mana Zone, he interprets the state and movement of mana to determine what is about to occur before it happens.
This is an extremely important detail because it establishes that mana in Black Clover carries information.
And with this, two important ideas immediately emerge:
1. Mana contains informational structure that can be interpreted.
2. Lucius Zogratis’ precognition likely functions through a similar principle.
However, this alone is still not enough to fully explain what Lucius is doing. To understand that, we need to look deeper into how mana itself is utilized throughout the series.
---
Mana Zone and Attribute-Specific Applications
In Black Clover, mana can be applied in many different ways depending on the attribute and skill of the user.
One of the simplest examples is sensory perception. Mana can be used to perceive and interpret the surrounding world itself. A good example is Yuno using mana perception while blinded, effectively visualizing the world around him through mana alone. This works because mana exists throughout the world itself and not just the atmosphere.
Then there is Mana Zone.
Mana Zone allows a mage to control and manipulate the mana present within the surrounding environment, and the applications of this technique often depend heavily on the user’s attribute.
For example, Langris uses Mana Zone alongside Spatial Magic to literally create and manipulate space itself. Yami utilizes Mana Zone in techniques such as Dimension Slash, while Zenon applies similar principles through Spatial Domination.
Other applications include enhanced perception, omnidirectional spell attacks, improved mobility, and more efficient spell casting.
The important thing here is not the individual techniques themselves, but the pattern behind them.
Mana Zone applications are often shaped by the user’s attribute.
Spatial attributes manipulate space (Langris creating space via mana zone).
Time attributes interact with time (Julius and in extension Lucius reading the future).
And in Julius Novachrono’s case, this manifests as the ability to perceive future mana flow itself.
This becomes extremely important once Lucius Zogratis enters the discussion.
Side note: this would later suggest lucius uses mana zone on a multiversal scale but yami has kinda done high universal scale stuff with mana zone in his fight with dorothy so its not so much of a long shot.
---
Lucius Zogratis and the Nature of His Precognition
Lucius Zogratis is capable of perceiving “futures,” but the exact nature of these futures is initially unclear.
However, once we begin examining the information provided throughout the manga, several strange details begin to emerge.
First, Lucius describes his ability actively, stating that he “foresees” futures rather than merely having seen them once in the past. This implies that his ability is not static memory, but an ongoing process of observation.
Second, Lucius perceives futures in which events differ drastically even from the current present itself. For example, despite Yuno already possessing two grimoires in the current timeline, Lucius observes multiple futures where Yuno simply never possesses them at all. In fact, according to Lucius, there is apparently only one future in which Yuno possesses two grimoires.
Already, this goes far beyond ordinary precognition.
But later chapters provide even more revealing information.
Lucius outright admits that the very world he currently inhabits can not be properly read. At the same time, the futures he perceives are described not merely as “possibilities,” but as entire “worlds.” More importantly, Lucius also possesses knowledge of the pasts belonging to these worlds as well.
Taken together, a pattern begins to emerge.
Lucius Zogratis is not simply observing branching possibilities from a single timeline. He is perceiving entirely different world-states, complete with their own histories, presents, and futures. Quick note we dont actually know how long it takes lucius to see them or even if he actually reads the timeline completely but yh you get the idea.
And yet, despite being able to perceive these worlds, the current world itself eventually becomes unreadable to him. That is, the future of the world.
Why?
Because of Asta.
---
The Power to See the Future
The moment Lucius Zogratis begins realizing events are deviating from his predictions, his reaction is extremely revealing.
When Yuno avoids an attack that Lucius clearly considered unavoidable, Lucius does not simply adjust his expectations or “recalculate” new possibilities. Instead, he immediately begins recognizing multiple inconsistencies between reality and what he previously foresaw.
Rather than treating these as minor deviations, Lucius outright admits that the world itself can not be read.
This reaction is extremely important.
If Lucius Zogratis were merely observing branching possibilities or probabilistic outcomes, small inconsistencies should not fundamentally disrupt his ability. He would simply shift toward another possible future.
But that is not what happens.
Instead, Lucius reacts as though the entire predictive structure itself is dead.
This strongly suggests that Lucius Zogratis does not perceive countless fluctuating possibilities from a single timeline, but rather observes one determined future per world-state.
And this is where Asta becomes important.
Imagine a closed system in which the state of every particle is known perfectly. In such a system, future states could theoretically be calculated with complete accuracy.
Now imagine there is one unknown particle that cannot be accounted for.
Even if every other variable remains known, the moment that unknown element begins interacting with the system, future calculations become increasingly unreliable. Predictions no longer represent certainty, but approximations.
Asta functions as this unknown variable.
Because he lacks mana, he cannot be properly integrated into the informational structure Lucius Zogratis relies upon to observe the future. However, despite being absent from the system itself, Asta still interacts with the world around him, influencing events and altering outcomes.
And as those changes propagate through the system, Lucius Zogratis’ predictions begin breaking down entirely.
Another way to understand this is through a programming analogy.
Imagine auditing the code of a standard website built entirely with HTML, CSS, and JavaScript. Everything appears completely normal until a Python-specific function suddenly appears within the JavaScript itself.
A standard browser would not know how to properly interpret that function because it exists outside the system the browser is designed to process.
Now imagine another engine capable of interpreting both the standard website code and the Python function simultaneously. Naturally, the output produced by this second engine would differ entirely from what the standard browser originally predicted.
In this analogy:
- The browser represents Lucius Zogratis’ precognition.
- The website code represents mana-based information.
- The second engine is the real world outcome
- And Asta represents the foreign function existing outside the system itself.
Asta is not absent from reality.
He is simply something Lucius Zogratis’ system cannot properly interpret.
---
Conclusion
Lucius Zogratis’ precognition extends far beyond ordinary future sight. His ability allows him to perceive not only futures, but complete world-states with their own pasts, presents, and futures.
However, this same ability also appears to rely upon the interpretation of a complete informational system tied to mana itself.
Asta’s lack of mana creates a contradiction within that system.
Because he cannot be properly integrated into Lucius Zogratis’ perception, Asta functions as an unaccounted variable whose influence continuously alters the very world Lucius attempts to observe.
And once that contradiction begins affecting reality itself, Lucius Zogratis’ ability to “read the world” collapses entirely.
Now a bunch of stuff was talked about and obviously thoughts are flying. i really dont know how well i would be able to respond but ill try my best.
- 1,112
- 400
If Dante's black hole ever gets accepted, could the verse get to 5-A with multipliers ?
Kazuma_kuwabara
He/Him- 6,913
- 3,569
It would be 5-A with the black hole to begin with
Edit: Ok no, 5-B+, so yes to your question
- 3,140
- 3,171
Yeah...
- 32
- 6
...can someone at least say what I wrote was rubbish 
Arkenis
They/Them- 25,182
- 13,000
Just sounds like what someone proposed a while ago that mana is more than just energy. And hasn't it always been interpreted that Lucius's precog was different realities not just regular precog?...can someone at least say what I wrote was rubbish
- 3,140
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Im working on that
Arkenis
They/Them- 25,182
- 13,000
Will u include cm1, Info2, void manip, multiversal range, AE1, and the history manip?
- 32
- 6
If it's what I think it is then that was for BDE and 1A stuff. This is more about the nature of Julius abilities and mana being information and asta potentially having some sort of acasuality because come on... Also the fact that Lucius might be seeing 1 future per world so it's not just interpreted as multiple possibilities.
Arkenis
They/Them- 25,182
- 13,000
Information maybe not. Def just soul stuff. But I thought acau was already accepted?
- 32
- 6
For astas acasuality maybe I'm just not aware. Anyways mana containing information is also one of the main stuff. Asta definitely has a soul and Lucius mentions lack of mana when calling him a flaw in the first place also Julius reading mana and all that...i tried explaining a bunch of stuff but i guess for now we'll see how it goes.
- 3,140
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Kazuma_kuwabara
He/Him- 6,913
- 3,569
Do you want to do it?
Arkenis
They/Them- 25,182
- 13,000
Kazuma_kuwabara
He/Him- 6,913
- 3,569
But do you really want to do it?If I must
No one is gonna force anyone to do a CTR that they don't want
And I talked with some users about this, but never about void, AE1 or history, so no idea about those
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If mana gains any aspect of abstraction, this would give AE 1 to Yuno, Mereoleona, paladins, and spirits; there is a type 1 NEP from Dorothy's world of glamour because it transforms reality into unreality (dreams) with its subjective reality.
From the page on subjective reality
And in this case, mana would also gain NEP type 1 by scaling because it's one of the aspects that make up that world, according to Henry, and the very mechanics of magic in the verse and manipulation of NEP is manipulation of the void.
from the void manipulation page
Edit: Regarding the manipulation of history, I have no idea, not even I, who made a CRT of 1-A Black Clover, have I scoured the depths of the Wiki and the manga for such an argument.
- 656
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Thank you, could you tell me what argument would be used for manipulating history? I don't plan on doing any CRT, just curious.
Arkenis
They/Them- 25,182
- 13,000
Idk just threw that in there.
- 656
- 194
That makes sense
- 32
- 6
I've been reading some stuff and oh boy
. So apparently the verse would get capped at light speed? And the doomsgate calc is also going? Nah men we need to lock in 
. So apparently the verse would get capped at light speed? And the doomsgate calc is also going? Nah men we need to lock in
Arkenis
They/Them- 25,182
- 13,000
What's a good feat besides the kingdom being destroyed?I've been reading some stuff and oh boy
- 2,413
- 905
The "futures" Lucius was talking about were the futures he foresaw 20 years ago. His plan began the moment Astaroth disappeared from the underworld. That’s why he ordered his siblings to attack the Grinberryall royal family to prevent the strongest version of Yuno from being born, why he infiltrated the Clover Kingdom 18 years ago, and why everything seemingly set things in motion years before Asta became a Magic Knight, such as gathering Yami and William in the same squad making them a magic knight, why Adrammelech knew 50% Lucifero was going to die, along with probably many things I just didn’t notice
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I Remember it saying "I foresee" so... This is just an assumption on your part. Buutttt maybe we would suddenly need to translate it ourselves who knows.untill then I'm sticking with the manga.
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You don't seem satisfied so let me address it properly at least.
This scan says what happened 20 yrs ago. So far nothing much. Just an intro on your views.
Again so far nothing much just general stuff to make your point.
Ok. This is where it all begins. You see the thing is according to what Lucius says, the world with yuno with 2 grimores was was where they had the advantage. Note that the world in which yuno was the strongest wasn't a problem in itself. Now why? Because we've seen Lucius handle an even stronger yuno(yuno in current manga). We should note that this yuno was overall the strongest and by far. So yuno being a threat to Lucius in the world he's a spade prince doesn't add up as a reason. Also I don't think spade yuno would be significantly better than any captain honestly. I mean Yami with that demon pill stuff could oneshot a Lucius that the now overly strong yuno couldn't. I mean... At least that spade yuno would be equal to captains. So should Lucius have tried to prevent the captains from being born? No! Infact the current yuno isn't a problem NGL minus the rubbish plot Lucius should have simply crushed all of them including asta.
Again this doesn't mean much. Basically Lucius having started moving yrs before now doesn't mean he can't see the future later.
Infact on the topic of avoiding yuno being born in spade, I'd like to say something.
If the best chance they had was in a world yuno had 2 grimores, why would he put things in that direction? Why not just let the spade yuno world be? It's obvious that he doesn't give a rainbow about all that stuff. He simply ordered things towards a world where he's ideals would be actualized.
So in conclusion, yuno was never a threat to begin with. He's not worthy of altering the future for. Your other arguments of his movements don't still mean anything. Just that he has been steadily making things happen. The point is he directly says "foresee" as far as I'm aware and the stuff you provided isn't really all that convincing.
I hope that's better
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"We bound Astaroth the Time Devil to ourselves in an attempt to learn the truth" this was 20 years ago, BEFORE his siblings attacked the Grinberryall family and BEFORE he infiltrated the Clover Kingdom.
There's absolutely NOTHING to support that his future sight also lets him see into the past and present. That's just an, argument an interpretation born out of not paying attention to the details.
Not to mention the idea of looking into an alternative timeline with its own history to perfect his plan makes no sense. By that logic, the only timeline that actually matters is the world he is in. What happens in another timeline DOESN'T matter to them. But clearly you didn't think this through. Sorry but you are just wrong
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Again this doesn't mean ANYTHING! It just says that he did stuff to align with what he thought to be the ideal world. Never can this suggest he can't read the future later. Also my point was literally what was said! He said "foresee" so ordinarily you would need to provide a solid reason why that's not the case if anything. Meanwhile the reasons you are providing just says he began moving after he got astaroth. How does that translate to him only doing it once twenty years ago?
Ok for the past, the argument of if Lucius did it just one time needs to be settled first. It'll be a no brainier from there. For the present, remember when adremelech betrays him? Or when he sends goons to that Japan place? Yh those were obviously present events. If anything a bit of the past. Now to expand the reasoning we again need to clarify the one time seeing stuff.
Ok one thing about this is that it's a bit lengthy to explain and also needs the clarification of whether Lucius saw these futures one time in the past or not. But just for the general idea I'll explain. If you can find similarities between scenarios, you can definitely plan with that. I mean scientifically and idk if this makes sense but animely. In Boruto that guy that can see the future talks about even if the stuff didn't go exactly, they can plan based on the the many scenarios he saw. This isn't even an argument honestly.
Now you have not provided any reason why he must have seen it just one time in the past. I however used real statements as a start and even the logic behind it. I would hate to write the logic again but depending on how many people get involved I will. But honestly speaking you haven't said anything that makes him seeing the future right there when he was talking with adremelech unlikely.
Also please can someone else drop an opinion? I want to genuinely know what makes this impossible.
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Lol I never said his foresight can’t read the future or that he only used his future sight once I said he can’t read the past and present with it. And when I said "futures he foresaw 20 years ago" I was referring to this scene. These were the futures he saw before he attacked Yuno’s family. It was him who caused the rebellion to stop this version of Yuno from happening.
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Oh my bad... anyways Lucius sees the future when talking with adremelech
Since he cannot read the current world, he couldn't have seen stuff in it yet he perceived adremelechs betrayal and asta in the land of the sun (not that he saw asta directly because he can't) and he saw them as they were happening or after they had just happened. That isn't future sight. Also since he saw all those tens of thousands of futures when talking with adremelech and mentioned only one with yuno having 2 grimores, then the pasts of those world either came from him reading it OR idk it just fell from the sky? Anyways he could also read the pasts of these worlds.
... Uhh ok but what's your reason for this claim?
Again he wasn't aiming to stop that yuno! He just said "as far as I know the strongest yuno should be this" not that he was like "stop yuno at all costs" because again he infact chose the world where they had the advantage if anything which was a world without that yuno. It's like saying he did that to avoid Noelle becoming that strong. He wasn't crashing out because they were strong it was because he realized he could never read the current world. Now one could argue that he could until asta was born but Skibidy toilet paper that wouldn't hold under some scrutiny I have.
Anyways, since we have acknowledged that Lucius does infact see the future when talking with adremelech we know that they aren't possible futures but futures of different worlds. Because Incase you weren't following, yuno already has 2 grimores at this time which contradicts the many other" futures"
- 3,140
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This is taken care of, hopefully
Kazuma_kuwabara
He/Him- 6,913
- 3,569
The cap is priority number 2
Priority number 1 is making Lucius have all the paladins as standard equipment
- 32
- 6
Hm... That's something
I haven't seen the reasoning for this so obviously I have no idea why. But that'll be op!Similar threads
