Acheron does NOT have acausality type 2

[Nighting4l33yes]

Let me just clarify on my Aca 2 understanding and support cuz i feel like i didnt explain it properly:

That the way I understand it, a person can have their past erased, for example from their origin up until a point, be not affected if changes happen to it, while also not existing in the future, BUT in current, present history they should be able to create a new past from the point of the erasure. Their yesterday isn't constantly erased. They can create history and interact with things normally in the present and when that present becomes past, things remain as is. The erasure doesn't need to happen every second that passes. One time is enough. From that point onwards they are free to create a new one.

 

[Vietthai96]

This verse love contradicting its own statement i guess

So, one question, is being Emanator completely separate your existence from your normal self like being Aeon?

 

[Mbpoops]

Let me just clarify on my Aca 2 understanding and support cuz i feel like i didnt explain it properly:

That the way I understand it, a person can have their past erased, for example from their origin up until a point, be not affected if changes happen to it, while also not existing in the future, BUT in current, present history they should be able to create a new past from the point of the erasure. Their yesterday isn't constantly erased. They can create history and interact with things normally in the present and when that present becomes past, things remain as is. The erasure doesn't need to happen every second that passes. One time is enough. From that point onwards they are free to create a new one.

The bolded part completely nukes the idea of aca type 2 because it implies she participates in the timeline and still exists throughout time (creating a new past) thus NOT making her a singularity. Also none of this is supported by scans

what you have described is type 1 acausality

Type 1: Time Paradox Immunity: Characters with this type of Acausality are rendered immune to changes in the past and standard temporal paradoxes, but remain just as vulnerable in the present and can be affected by normal Causality Manipulation and similar abilities.

Note that only characters explicitly depicted as immune to time paradoxes in their past by feats and/or direct statements qualify for this power. Fiction commonly features time travel systems where time-travelers, for no explainable reason, retain their memories of previous timelines even after changing the past, and merely existing in a work with such mechanics doesn't mean the character inherently has such an immunity, especially given how they would still be affected if someone else was time-traveling instead.

however, due to the nature of the verse, surviving changes in the past wouldnt grant this because of MWI or else you'd see the entire hi3 cast with type 1 from Otto's feat.

 

[Mbpoops]

This verse love contradicting its own statement i guess

So, one question, is being Emanator completely separate your existence from your normal self like being Aeon?

No. Not at all. Its literally just people who follow a path and stand out more thus they are allowed to draw more power from their path.

 

[Mbpoops]

The only character in verse who is said to have a “special existence” is Elio

 

[Nighting4l33yes]

This verse love contradicting its own statement i guess

So, one question, is being Emanator completely separate your existence from your normal self like being Aeon?

Not sure what you mean here. Emanators are beings given godlike power from Aeons. Acheron has her power from Nihility after annihilating her planet and herself with an attack that erased its existence from history, timeline, memory, info about it etc. Also, Nihility is slowly erasing her as in her cognitive abilities, meaning, being, memories etc. everything relevant is in the scans of the quoted reply where for yourself you can see what is actually supported and what isn't.

 

[Mbpoops]

just to point out, but at the time of acheron or IX (whoever did it) destroying Izumo or "erasing it from history" it would have been the present, neither of them really went back in time and erased it's origin it could literally just be summed up as flowerly language for destroyed because, as shown in the OP, they still have logs of izumo existing. though this thread isnt really about removing history EE

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

If the only argument for Type 2 (rather than Type 1) is the fact that she is immune to Elio's Script because she's not in the script and resistant to precog

Then I have to agree with the OP
Refer to these instances

1.) Zephyro is in Elio's script
2.) In the same scene where Firefly asked if Acheron is in the Script. She also stated how her mission is to literally prevent her from drawing her blade while Trailblazer is around as her "Zero Point Mission", which implies that she is in the script and Dahlia is possibly fabricating S.A.M's Memory at that moment. Otherwise, she wouldn't know who she should stop drawing the blade. (Firefly's statement here is colored, followed by Dahlia's Expression being disappointed as if she failed to convince firefly)

Another thing to note in Type 2 Acausality is the fact that their Past or future should not affect them. But we clearly see Nihility casting its shadow on Acheron's Past and Other Self-Annihilator. This would work as evidence if there is an actual effect on people's memories regarding the place or some historical event records being replaced or a different history happened. But clearly this isn't what happened
And the fact that there are still historical records of the place destroyed by Acheron says a lot

So yeah, I agree with the OP
And I share the same opinion as these 2 people regarding that one argument

 

[Vietthai96]

Not sure what you mean here. Emanators are beings given godlike power from Aeons. Acheron has her power from Nihility after annihilating her planet and herself with an attack that erased its existence from history, timeline, memory, info about it etc. Also, Nihility is slowly erasing her as in her cognitive abilities, meaning, being, memories etc. everything relevant is in the scans of the quoted reply where for yourself you can see what is actually supported and what isn't.

And she still having a past?

 

[Nighting4l33yes]

just to point out, but at the time of acheron or IX (whoever did it) destroying Izumo or "erasing it from history" it would have been the present, neither of them really went back in time and erased it's origin it could literally just be summed up as flowerly language for destroyed because, as shown in the OP, they still have logs of izumo existing

Can you stop constantly pleading your case in their faces the moment some kind of staff appears? You're saying things over and over and just keep trying to overshadow my arguments. Stop it. They'll all find the relative information in the reply you linked.

 

[Mbpoops]

Can you stop constantly pleading your case in their faces the moment some kind of staff appears? You're saying things over and over and just keep trying to overshadow my arguments. Stop it. They'll all find the relative information in the reply you linked.

“can you stop refuting my arguments” is basically what you’re asking me to do. Im allowed to comment on things i disagree with

 

[Mbpoops]

And she still having a past?

Let me just clarify on my Aca 2 understanding and support cuz i feel like i didnt explain it properly:

That the way I understand it, a person can have their past erased, for example from their origin up until a point, be not affected if changes happen to it, while also not existing in the future, BUT in current, present history they should be able to create a new past from the point of the erasure. Their yesterday isn't constantly erased. They can create history and interact with things normally in the present and when that present becomes past, things remain as is. The erasure doesn't need to happen every second that passes. One time is enough. From that point onwards they are free to create a new one.

self admitted

 

[Zanesucksatlife]

And she still having a past?

Yep

 

[Vietthai96]

No you don't create past, wth? You existing as a singularity that you only in the present, the past and the future have none of you in them

 

[Nighting4l33yes]

And she still having a past?

Her past existed but after annihilating, it was erased from existence. As in her origin. Her birth, life etc never happened and only remain in her memories. In the present however after that event she can normally interact with things and leave traces in history as she walks.

 

[Mbpoops]

No you don't create past, wth? You existing as a singularity that you only in the present, the past and the future have none of you in them

btw its pure headcanon because she never lost her past its just "veiled" or "hidden" by the nihility

 

[Vietthai96]

btw its pure headcanon because she never lost her past its just "veiled" or "hidden" by the nihility

Then Aca 2 should go

 

[Mbpoops]

Then Aca 2 should go

so i can write you as agree?

 

[Nighting4l33yes]

If the only argument for Type 2 (rather than Type 1) is the fact that she is immune to Elio's Script because she's not in the script and resistant to precog

Then I have to agree with the OP
Refer to these instances

1.) Zephyro is in Elio's script
2.) In the same scene where Firefly asked if Acheron is in the Script. She also stated how her mission is to literally prevent her from drawing her blade while Trailblazer is around as her "Zero Point Mission", which implies that she is in the script and Dahlia is possibly fabricating S.A.M's Memory at that moment. Otherwise, she wouldn't know who she should stop drawing the blade. (Firefly's statement here is colored, followed by Dahlia's Expression being disappointed as if she failed to convince firefly)

Another thing to note in Type 2 Acausality is the fact that their Past or future should not affect them. But we clearly see Nihility casting its shadow on Acheron's Past and Other Self-Annihilator. This would work as evidence if there is an actual effect on people's memories regarding the place or some historical event records being replaced or a different history happened. But clearly this isn't what happened
And the fact that there are still historical records of the place destroyed by Acheron says a lot

So yeah, I agree with the OP
And I share the same opinion as these 2 people regarding that one argument

1) Zephyro's presence is irrelevant to Acheron's erasure of past. It's not Self-Annihilation that erases it. It was her own strike tainted with power in her planet destroying fate, cause and effect and so on.
2) In the Original Penacony story Dahlia didn't exist. It was rectonned that she is there later on. Additionally, Dahlia infiltrated the Stellaron Hunters AFTER she saw her Family be killed by Acheron. It's not because she met with Elio and saw the script.

Edit: I also want to add that Elio knew who Dahlia was iirc because she even applied to join them. Her wanting Firefly to avoid death by Acheron's blade is natural because she considered her previous Family an actual family too.

 

[Vietthai96]

so i can write you as agree?

Yeah

 

[Nighting4l33yes]

Then Aca 2 should go

It's not headcanon. Please read my arguments. What is head-canon is that Nihility "hides" things. When that is Enigmata's thing. Nihility eradicates.

 

[Mbpoops]

It's not headcanon. Please read my arguments. What is head-canon is that Nihility "hides" things. When that is Enigmata's thing. Nihility eradicates.

Definition of HIDE

to put out of sight : secrete; to conceal for shelter or protection : shield; to keep secret… See the full definition

www.merriam-webster.com

the nihility conceals information of acheron and Izumo's past. the nihility wards off anyone trying to look through acheron's past. this is hiding even if unintentionally. its implied IX knows the reasoning behind Izumo's end he just doesnt say anything because he deems it, as he deems everything, as pointless, as he is the embodyment of nihility

actually reading the path definition literally says it's shrouded by layers of mist, signifying the mystery of it's origin as no one truely understand nihility

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

2) In the Original Penacony story Dahlia didn't exist. It was rectonned that she is there later on. Additionally, Dahlia infiltrated the Stellaron Hunters AFTER she saw her Family be killed by Acheron. It's not because she met with Elio and saw the script.

That's not the point

She said Acheron is not in the script when Firefly is trying to remember. Yet Firefly knows her Main mission is to prevent Her from Drawing that Blade while Trailblazer is within range. If you claim its Acheron's blade that is type 2 acausal and not self annihilators then why does Firefly have a mission to stop it as if Elio knows

She did not infiltrate the Stellaron hunters; those are fabricated memories. She showed Firefly that she had joined them.

Hence, Silverwolf was cut off from Firefl and wasn't receiving intel from Silverwolf while they were still together

I suggest you reread 3.8 properly and try to pinpoint Dahlia's fabrication when she is leading Firefly

 

[Nighting4l33yes]

That's not the point

She said Acheron is not in the script when Firefly is trying to remember. Yet Firefly knows her Main mission is to prevent Her from Drawing that Blade while Trailblazer is within range. If you claim its Acheron's blade that is type 2 acausal and not self annihilators then why does Firefly have a mission to stop it as if Elio knows

She did not infiltrate the Stellaron hunters; those are fabricated memories. She showed Firefly that she had joined them.

Hence, Silverwolf was cut off from Firefl and wasn't receiving intel from Silverwolf while they were still together

I suggest you reread 3.8 properly and try to pinpoint Dahlia's fabrication when she is leading Firefly

I suggest you read this. FF had no knowledge of Acheron before Dahlia told her.

Firefly: An Emanator of the Nihility!? Was she ever mentioned in the "script"? The Dahlia: No, if it weren't for "my father's death," I wouldn't have known about this either. Firefly: An Emanator of the Nihility!? Was she ever mentioned in the "script"? The Dahlia: No, if it weren't for "my father's death," I wouldn't have known about this either. Firefly: An Emanator of the Nihility!? Was she ever mentioned in the "script"? The Dahlia: No, if it weren't for "my father's death," I wouldn't have known about this either. Firefly: An Emanator of the Nihility!? Was she ever mentioned in the "script"? The Dahlia: No, if it weren't for "my father's death," I wouldn't have known about this either. Firefly: An Emanator of the Nihility!? Was she ever mentioned in the "script"? The Dahlia: No, if it weren't for "my father's death," I wouldn't have known about this either. Firefly: An Emanator of the Nihility!? Was she ever mentioned in the "script"? The Dahlia: No, if it weren't for "my father's death," I wouldn't have known about this either. Firefly: An Emanator of the Nihility!? Was she ever mentioned in the "script"? The Dahlia: No, if it weren't for "my father's death," I wouldn't have known about this either. Firefly: An Emanator of the Nihility!? Was she ever mentioned in the "script"? The Dahlia: No, if it weren't for "my father's death," I wouldn't have known about this either. Firefly: An Emanator of the Nihility!? Was she ever mentioned in the "script"? The Dahlia: No, if it weren't for "my father's death," I wouldn't have known about this either. Firefly: An Emanator of the Nihility!? Was she ever mentioned in the "script"? The Dahlia: No, if it weren't for "my father's death," I wouldn't have known about this either.

 

[Robo432343]

Then Aca 2 should go

YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

I suggest you read this. FF had no knowledge of Acheron before Dahlia told her.

Firefly: An Emanator of the Nihility!? Was she ever mentioned in the "script"? The Dahlia: No, if it weren't for "my father's death," I wouldn't have known about this either. Firefly: An Emanator of the Nihility!? Was she ever mentioned in the "script"? The Dahlia: No, if it weren't for "my father's death," I wouldn't have known about this either. Firefly: An Emanator of the Nihility!? Was she ever mentioned in the "script"? The Dahlia: No, if it weren't for "my father's death," I wouldn't have known about this either. Firefly: An Emanator of the Nihility!? Was she ever mentioned in the "script"? The Dahlia: No, if it weren't for "my father's death," I wouldn't have known about this either. Firefly: An Emanator of the Nihility!? Was she ever mentioned in the "script"? The Dahlia: No, if it weren't for "my father's death," I wouldn't have known about this either. Firefly: An Emanator of the Nihility!? Was she ever mentioned in the "script"? The Dahlia: No, if it weren't for "my father's death," I wouldn't have known about this either. Firefly: An Emanator of the Nihility!? Was she ever mentioned in the "script"? The Dahlia: No, if it weren't for "my father's death," I wouldn't have known about this either. Firefly: An Emanator of the Nihility!? Was she ever mentioned in the "script"? The Dahlia: No, if it weren't for "my father's death," I wouldn't have known about this either. Firefly: An Emanator of the Nihility!? Was she ever mentioned in the "script"? The Dahlia: No, if it weren't for "my father's death," I wouldn't have known about this either. Firefly: An Emanator of the Nihility!? Was she ever mentioned in the "script"? The Dahlia: No, if it weren't for "my father's death," I wouldn't have known about this either.

My brother in Christ. In that same instances is the same time Firefly affirmed her mission to Stop Acheron's blade and what I'm talking about
you don't pick 1 statement and discard the context just because there is a statement like that

Firefly: Absolutely not! Have you forgotten? As a Stellaron Hunter, I have a "Zero-Point Mission," one that must be completed at any cost—
Firefly: If there's even the slightest chance that Acheron might draw her blade, I cannot let (Trailblazer) be there.

And after this, Dahlia's expression became disappointed. I suggest you actualy read this in the game rather than reading text so you see context cues

 

[Vietthai96]

YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS

Dude why are you so happy?. Don't tell me you are planning something

 

[Nighting4l33yes]

My brother in Christ. In that same instances is the same time Firefly affirmed her mission to Stop Acheron's blade and what I'm talking about
you don't pick 1 statement and discard the context just because there is a statement like that

Obviously?? After Dahlia told her who the **** she was and how dangerous she was? "Her mission" is the one she set out at that instant.

 

[Nighting4l33yes]

You can remove type 2 if you are adamant on it it. But I am making a crt and giving her type 4 the day after

 

[Mbpoops]

Well.. there you have it..

 

[Nighting4l33yes]

Well.. there you have it..

Have what? You had everyone and their grandma come here and build an uninformed agreement chain

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

Obviously?? After Dahlia told her who the **** she was and how dangerous she was? "Her mission" is the one she set out at that instant.

She only said she's an emanator, yet she knows how dangerous her blade?
You don't just accidentally know that.

There's no point going back and forth with you. Regardless, there is still the fact that Zephyro exists in Elio's script and the fact that your claim that Self-annihilator has no connection to type 2 yet claimed Type 2 acausality for Acheron because she currently exist like all self-emanators is something you have the burden of proof to prove to be the case

 

[Mbpoops]

Have what? You had everyone and their grandma come here and build an uninformed agreement chain

YOU REQUESTED JEDI TO COME

 

[Nighting4l33yes]

She only said she's an emanator, yet she knows how dangerous her blade?
You don't just accidentally know that.

In case you aren't aware, Dahlia had her associates slaughtered in front of her by Acheron. It's perfectly sensible that she knows what she's capable of and is warning Firefly. She is a highly knowledgable person, being a Stellaron Hunter, and KNOWS how powerful Nihility is as she is meant to eventually face it.

YOU REQUESTED JEDI TO COME

I take it back get him out

 

[Nighting4l33yes]

Regardless, there is still the fact that Zephyro exists in Elio's script and the fact that your claim that Self-annihilator has no connection to type 2 yet claimed Type 2 acausality for Acheron because she currently exist like all self-emanators is something you have the burden of proof to prove to be the case

You ignored everything I said btw. It's not self-annihilation that makes someone acausal. It's what Acheron did to her PLANET that erased it from the timeline.

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

You ignored everything I said btw. It's not self-annihilation that makes someone acausal. It's what Acheron did to her PLANET that erased it from the timeline.

Dahlia knows, but Firefly doesn't, and never in any interaction did she explain it to Firefly. She just told her. She's an emanator. That's the point
Dahlia is trying to fabricate her memories, but clearly, she doesn't know about Zero Point Mission, which is important. Which is Firefly stopping Acheron from drawing her Blade while Trailblazer is nearby (Bolded in yellow letters in game)

 

[Nighting4l33yes]

Dahlia knows, but Firefly doesn't, and never in any interaction did she explain it to Firefly. She just told her. She's an emanator. That's the point
Dahlia is trying to fabricate her memories, but clearly, she doesn't know about Zero Point Mission, which is important. Which is Firefly stopping Acheron from drawing her Blade while Trailblazer is nearby (Bolded in yellow letters in game)

Um. Do you KNOW what the zero-point mission is? PROTECTING THE TRAILBLAZER for whom btw she risked her "life" multiple times for. like three ******* times. which is the point of her SCRIPT. in EVERY one of her deaths, she "took a hit" for the trailblazer. she got stabbed by the dog, got blown up and then got her "third" death sorta revised or something. the mission is NOT about stopping acheron specifically. the same way KAFKA saves the TB at amphoreus from making the wrong choice.

I am done talking to you

 

[Elizhaa]

The removal looks fine, from the evidence.

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

Well it's only one side that keeps spamming threads and has random ppl brought over from other verses who have no idea what is being discussed just to agree with them and fill out the "Agree" section especially when controversial changes and verses are meant, by the rules, to have knowledgable members... but yes

Also, can you ping ANY of these people on the matter of Acausality? I am genuinely really curious.

@Theglassman12 @Everything12 @Deceived3596 @Elizhaa @TheGreatJedi13 @Astral_Trinity439 @FinePoint

Welp, here goes. First quoting the page:

Type 2: Temporal Singularity: Characters with this type of Acausality do not exist in either the past or the future, only the present. This means they cannot be affected by changes to the past, while also making them resistant to Precognition that works by viewing the future, as they do not exist within it, and Fate Manipulation, for the same reason. In essence, they are able to choose their own fates, but they remain just as vulnerable at the point in time in which they do exist.

Now my interpretation:
If we were to take the timeline as a line, then a type 2 being is like a single dot inside that line. It can move to different points in time (in linear or not), but it does not leave any trace behind, not even immediate traces.

Because even changes to your self from 1 second ago can effect the present, such that if you were to be erased 1 second ago, you won't exist 1 second later; by being immune to that, type 2s are essentially screaming that they only exist in the present. The true essence is not creating a path across space-time, not about "erasing your history" or whatever, though that may be one of the unconventional ways to get type 2. But yes, you have to be constantly erasing your past/future if you want to get Type 2 via that method.
Graphically, it's something like this:

1. Normal people trace a path in time normally. You can manipulate any of their past points.
2. People whose past is retroactively erased at different points in time cannot have their erased past manipulated, but their immediate past is still there for one to erase. Only way to bypass this is IF the retroactive erasure is passive and constantly doing its job (as that's no different from a type 2 except in how they erase it)
3. Type 2 beings just don't trace a path AT ALL. Thus why a future or past is never generated for them that can be manipulated.

Hope that helps.
Personally I'm neutral to the proposal on the thread.
Not reading that long of a yapfest :d

 

[Vietthai96]

I feel the urge to delete that post