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This CRT is specifically about the Dragon Ball manga profiles and the separation of the anime in most cases. Got perms from @SomebodyData
Dragon Ball manga profiles should not use anime-only visuals, expansion, or quantification when the manga already has its own depiction of the feat, unless absolutely required in the most grievous of cases.
This obviously doesn't mean that the anime can't be used for the anime profiles and the like, but rather, to simply use the manga for the manga, and the anime for the anime. For a handful of reasons, which we will go over, but the main issue is using Toei's adaptation visuals to quantify the original manga continuity, especially when the anime version visibly adds, changes, or inflates (and sometimes deflates) details that weren't actually present or implied in the manga itself. But to start:
Canon page:
Now for some more tangible reasoning:
TV Anime Guide: Dragon Ball Tenkaichi Densetsu roundtable with Akira Toriyama, Takao Koyama, and Masako Nozawa:
This is extremely relevant as Toriyama was directly asked if he made requests when Dragon Ball became an anime. The interview was manually translated by the Kami Sama Explorer guys, and they're a group of brazilian Dragon Ball fans and translate everything themselves, and since I also speak portuguese, I made sure the translation to English was correct.
Question:
The same source also has Takao Koyama explaining the production's need to expand/pad the anime because it was catching up to the manga at various points.
Koyama:
Tokyo Anime Award Festival 2024 on Toriyama's award comment:
Official TAAF page confirming Toriyama as a 2024 Anime Merit/Achievement honoree:
The TAAF page lists Toriyama as "原作者" / original author, not as the series director, anime episode checker, storyboard supervisor, or someone actively involved in depiction.
Daizenshuu 3 / Gregory example, commonly cited translation:
Now I bring the above up because to say Toriyama never had involvement would be false, as he did sometimes provide selective anime input. Gregory for example, the anime staff wanted one more character for Goku's training at King Kai's planet, so Toriyama came up with Gregory.
But that's actually somewhat damning, as it shows how that when Toriyama actually contributed something anime-original, it was specific requested contribution, and given multiple other sources, he otherwise had very little to do with it outside of obvious cases like selecting voice actors. The episode-to-pisode stuff was handled almost entirely by Toei, with zero overview from him, and often done in such a way to prolong or pad the actual animation.
Essentially, Toriyama had some involvement with the anime in limited/selective ways, but that does not establish episode-by-episode canon control, visual fact-checking, or approval of every anime-only expansion as a manga-continuity detail.
A major caveat anwyway:
Dragon Ball's anime has a clear habit of taking manga scenes and visually expanding them, '''not''' clarifying.
That's not inherently bad. It's an adaptation. It can add, extend scenes, add filler, change timing, and make events look more dramatic or more interesting, and much, much, more.
The problem is when such additions are used to quantify the manga version, despite the anime having its own canon.
The manga profiles should be based exclusively on the manga's own material (and things directly canon to it). If the manga shows a feat one way, and the anime shows the same feat with extra visual information that is't actually implicated by the manga, then the anime version shouldn't be used for the manga profiles.
There's a thin line between clarification, expansion, and outright changing.
This is especially true when the anime has a bad habit of just expanding upon feats instead of simply clarifyig, far past what the manga itself visually supports.
Roshi's Moon Destruction
Roshi destroys the Moon in the manga. That isn't being disputed, nobody get riled up, that's safe, nobody wants to remove that, it won't happen. The problem is the way the feat is being interpreted and then quantified.
In the anime, the feat is animated with details such as mass ejection of debris. That anime depiction has then been used to support a vastly different yield compared to what the mang indicates. But in the manga, the panel doesn't show the same debris ejection. The Moon is engulfed in the blast, and the manga depiction completely lacks the same mass-ejection visual needed for that quantification. If anything, the manga panel shows the Moon being engulfed/destroyed by the attack rather than a detailed debris-ejection event, resembling several other instances throughout the manga of object being engulfed, or even disintegrated, as opposed to ejection of debris (such as Kid Buu's planet burst attack).
In this case, the anime isn't "clarifying" the manga. The anime is simply adding information that the primary source doesn't show or imply as having actually happened.
Using that anime-only animation to determine the manga profile's tier is the type of thing our very canon rules heed warning against. The primary source needs to priority, especially when the different depiction changes what actually occured.
There's also a consistency issue. Early Dragon Ball has Roshi's Moon destruction, then by the Budokai Goku is stated to be capable of shattering the moon (PL910), later Piccolo destroys the Moon in a more casual state, and then later Saiyan Saga/Vegeta material (such as the Daizenhuu) is where the story starts mentioning planetary destruction as with Vegeta or the Spirit Bomb having been capable of blowing away Earth, among many other such statements that only start showing up around when they get to that threshold.
By itself, that doesn't inherently mean much of anything, but it makes Roshi's value, which stems not from the source material but rather inflated anime-derived values extremely suspect when they push what is very clearly depicted as moon destruction into absurdly high results, and make the later Moon-to-planet progression functionally meaningless.
Essentially: Moon feat > actually far above normal Moon destruction because of anime visuals, and even above the later planet stuff > later Moon/planetary evidence gets ignored because the characters already far above it > planetary escalation is treated as irrelevant even though the manga's progression clearly uses Moon destruction before planetary. And all because of a anime calculation overriding the primary continuity's own presentation, feats, ongoing narrative, and actual depiction of feats. Do note that simply having a feat above later feats doesn't invalidate the earlier feat (if it did, the Roshi feat as a whole would be invalid till the Budokai), what is being said, is that when that stems entirely from a non-canon epiction that isn't actually implied in the manga and is grossly suspect with what the manga potrays, there might be an issue.
Namek's Destruction
Namek is another obvious example of the anime inflating or tweaking a scene from the manga.
In the manga itself, Namek explodes, and what's shown i quite simply, just a planet sized blast, and the nearby moons/celestial objects aren't shown being obliterated by a huge expanding screen-filling explosion, in act they're mostly fine and untouched.
In the anime, the context is all the same, and Namek does explode, but that same explosion is visually depicted entirely different depsite being the "same feat". It expands across the screen (with Namek having been just a small dot), consumes everything around it, including it's orbiting celestial bodies, and later on even depicts that full screen nuke as a massive multi-solar visual effect that lit up a portion of a galaxy.
That isn't clarification, the anime is just outright changing the actual scale, scope, and visual effects of the same base feat.
Again, that's fine for the anime continuity. But it can't be used to quantify the manga.
If the manga doesn't actually show Namek's explosion wiping out surrounding bodies or producing the same scale, then those details shouldn't actually be implemented into manga's context.
The actual production all but confirms Toriyama wan't checking every episode, every blast size, every debris shot, every background effect, or every visual. He himself certainly wasn't giving the actual blueprints for toei to work off like JJK at times or Bleach, instead it was almost entirely the Toei-staff themselves handling the anime as a whole.
Instead, what we know dictates the opposite:
Proposed Changes:
Suggested note:
Dragon Ball manga profiles should not use anime-only visuals, expansion, or quantification when the manga already has its own depiction of the feat, unless absolutely required in the most grievous of cases.
This obviously doesn't mean that the anime can't be used for the anime profiles and the like, but rather, to simply use the manga for the manga, and the anime for the anime. For a handful of reasons, which we will go over, but the main issue is using Toei's adaptation visuals to quantify the original manga continuity, especially when the anime version visibly adds, changes, or inflates (and sometimes deflates) details that weren't actually present or implied in the manga itself. But to start:
Canon page:
- The page can be read for more exact details but to point out the relevant bits.
- Canon generally means the work by the original author/creator unless stated otherwise.
- Primary canon is the first-released source material.
- When different source materials depict the same feat differently, the primary canon takes precedence.
- If judging the same feat across different canons gives different results, the primary canon result has priority.
- Specifically says that, for most manga series, the original manga is canonical while the anime is not, since the anime is an adaptation made by others.
- Also says tertiary/adaptation material is only allowed when it does ''not'' modify or contradict the source material.
- Adaptation section says author approval alone is often not enough. Mere involvement, minor supervision, general praise, or "faithful adaptation" wording is still insufficient unless the creator explicitly confirms the material is integrated into or has priority over the original material.
Now, before anyone states the obvious, the point here isn't "is the anime official?" Obviously it's official. The question is whether anime-only visual additions should be used to determine the statistics of the manga profiles. Under the site's own canon standards, they should not.
Now for some more tangible reasoning:
TV Anime Guide: Dragon Ball Tenkaichi Densetsu roundtable with Akira Toriyama, Takao Koyama, and Masako Nozawa:
This is extremely relevant as Toriyama was directly asked if he made requests when Dragon Ball became an anime. The interview was manually translated by the Kami Sama Explorer guys, and they're a group of brazilian Dragon Ball fans and translate everything themselves, and since I also speak portuguese, I made sure the translation to English was correct.
Question:
Or in English:
That's direct evidence against the idea that Toriyama was fact-checking every anime shot or treating Toei's visual additions as clarification to his material. He himself states that anime has its own method, professionals handle it, and manga/anime are separate.
The same source also has Takao Koyama explaining the production's need to expand/pad the anime because it was catching up to the manga at various points.
Koyama:
He also says:
This is pretty blatant that "the anime only clarifies the manga", isn't actually true. The anime explicitly expandes the manga for broadcast pacing and production reasons, often padding it even, with the people deciding the padding not being Toriyama.
Tokyo Anime Award Festival 2024 on Toriyama's award comment:
He then goes onto say that around 10 years earlier, he was asked to revise a Dragon Ball animated movie script and draw simple character/background designs, and that the difficult parts could be left to the staff.
Noteworthy, given that it confirms that direct involvement in later animated projects was notable enough to be specifically mentioned. It also goes against the idea that, during the original DB/Z anime run, Toriyama was closely watching/checking every anime depiction.
Official TAAF page confirming Toriyama as a 2024 Anime Merit/Achievement honoree:
The TAAF page lists Toriyama as "原作者" / original author, not as the series director, anime episode checker, storyboard supervisor, or someone actively involved in depiction.
Daizenshuu 3 / Gregory example, commonly cited translation:
Now I bring the above up because to say Toriyama never had involvement would be false, as he did sometimes provide selective anime input. Gregory for example, the anime staff wanted one more character for Goku's training at King Kai's planet, so Toriyama came up with Gregory.
But that's actually somewhat damning, as it shows how that when Toriyama actually contributed something anime-original, it was specific requested contribution, and given multiple other sources, he otherwise had very little to do with it outside of obvious cases like selecting voice actors. The episode-to-pisode stuff was handled almost entirely by Toei, with zero overview from him, and often done in such a way to prolong or pad the actual animation.
Essentially, Toriyama had some involvement with the anime in limited/selective ways, but that does not establish episode-by-episode canon control, visual fact-checking, or approval of every anime-only expansion as a manga-continuity detail.
A major caveat anwyway:
Dragon Ball's anime has a clear habit of taking manga scenes and visually expanding them, '''not''' clarifying.
That's not inherently bad. It's an adaptation. It can add, extend scenes, add filler, change timing, and make events look more dramatic or more interesting, and much, much, more.
The problem is when such additions are used to quantify the manga version, despite the anime having its own canon.
The manga profiles should be based exclusively on the manga's own material (and things directly canon to it). If the manga shows a feat one way, and the anime shows the same feat with extra visual information that is't actually implicated by the manga, then the anime version shouldn't be used for the manga profiles.
There's a thin line between clarification, expansion, and outright changing.
This is especially true when the anime has a bad habit of just expanding upon feats instead of simply clarifyig, far past what the manga itself visually supports.
Roshi's Moon Destruction
Roshi destroys the Moon in the manga. That isn't being disputed, nobody get riled up, that's safe, nobody wants to remove that, it won't happen. The problem is the way the feat is being interpreted and then quantified.
In the anime, the feat is animated with details such as mass ejection of debris. That anime depiction has then been used to support a vastly different yield compared to what the mang indicates. But in the manga, the panel doesn't show the same debris ejection. The Moon is engulfed in the blast, and the manga depiction completely lacks the same mass-ejection visual needed for that quantification. If anything, the manga panel shows the Moon being engulfed/destroyed by the attack rather than a detailed debris-ejection event, resembling several other instances throughout the manga of object being engulfed, or even disintegrated, as opposed to ejection of debris (such as Kid Buu's planet burst attack).
In this case, the anime isn't "clarifying" the manga. The anime is simply adding information that the primary source doesn't show or imply as having actually happened.
Using that anime-only animation to determine the manga profile's tier is the type of thing our very canon rules heed warning against. The primary source needs to priority, especially when the different depiction changes what actually occured.
There's also a consistency issue. Early Dragon Ball has Roshi's Moon destruction, then by the Budokai Goku is stated to be capable of shattering the moon (PL910), later Piccolo destroys the Moon in a more casual state, and then later Saiyan Saga/Vegeta material (such as the Daizenhuu) is where the story starts mentioning planetary destruction as with Vegeta or the Spirit Bomb having been capable of blowing away Earth, among many other such statements that only start showing up around when they get to that threshold.
By itself, that doesn't inherently mean much of anything, but it makes Roshi's value, which stems not from the source material but rather inflated anime-derived values extremely suspect when they push what is very clearly depicted as moon destruction into absurdly high results, and make the later Moon-to-planet progression functionally meaningless.
Essentially: Moon feat > actually far above normal Moon destruction because of anime visuals, and even above the later planet stuff > later Moon/planetary evidence gets ignored because the characters already far above it > planetary escalation is treated as irrelevant even though the manga's progression clearly uses Moon destruction before planetary. And all because of a anime calculation overriding the primary continuity's own presentation, feats, ongoing narrative, and actual depiction of feats. Do note that simply having a feat above later feats doesn't invalidate the earlier feat (if it did, the Roshi feat as a whole would be invalid till the Budokai), what is being said, is that when that stems entirely from a non-canon epiction that isn't actually implied in the manga and is grossly suspect with what the manga potrays, there might be an issue.
Namek's Destruction
Namek is another obvious example of the anime inflating or tweaking a scene from the manga.
In the manga itself, Namek explodes, and what's shown i quite simply, just a planet sized blast, and the nearby moons/celestial objects aren't shown being obliterated by a huge expanding screen-filling explosion, in act they're mostly fine and untouched.
In the anime, the context is all the same, and Namek does explode, but that same explosion is visually depicted entirely different depsite being the "same feat". It expands across the screen (with Namek having been just a small dot), consumes everything around it, including it's orbiting celestial bodies, and later on even depicts that full screen nuke as a massive multi-solar visual effect that lit up a portion of a galaxy.
That isn't clarification, the anime is just outright changing the actual scale, scope, and visual effects of the same base feat.
Again, that's fine for the anime continuity. But it can't be used to quantify the manga.
If the manga doesn't actually show Namek's explosion wiping out surrounding bodies or producing the same scale, then those details shouldn't actually be implemented into manga's context.
The actual production all but confirms Toriyama wan't checking every episode, every blast size, every debris shot, every background effect, or every visual. He himself certainly wasn't giving the actual blueprints for toei to work off like JJK at times or Bleach, instead it was almost entirely the Toei-staff themselves handling the anime as a whole.
Instead, what we know dictates the opposite:
- Toriyama directly said he did not really make requests when Dragon Ball became an anime.
- Toriyama said anime has its own way of doing things and should be left to the professionals.
- Toriyama said manga and anime are separate things.
- Koyama said the anime had to insert side stories because it was catching up to the manga.
- Koyama said he once wrote an entire episode from a single manga panel.
- Toriyama later said he did not watch much anime even when his own works were adapted.
- Toriyama's known anime input, like Gregory, was selective/specific, not general proof that every Toei visual is canon to the manga.
Proposed Changes:
- Remove anime-derived calculations from Dragon Ball manga profile justifications when the calculation relies on anime-only visual details.
- Recalculate or re-evaluate those feats using the manga depiction only, where possible.
- If a manga feat cannot be quantified from the manga alone, then it should not be quantified using anime-only additions unless there is a specific accepted reason for doing so (this is your lenience for being able to use anime timeframes when the manga is incapable of supplying its own, as at that point there's not much other option).
- Keep anime-derived calculations for anime continuity pages/profiles only, assuming they're valid.
- Add a note to the Dragon Ball verse page clarifying that manga profiles shouldn't use anime expansions for manga statistics.
Suggested note:
Last edited:
