Kratos vs Yhwach

[Jin2188]

I'M BAAAAAAAAAACK

• Ghost of Sparta Kratos is used; he is High 3-A and has all of his equipment except for the Low 1-C stuff.
• Soul King Yhwach is used; he has access to all the Sternritter's Schrifts.
• Speed is equalized.
• Fight takes place on Mount Olympus.
• SBA for everything else.

Kratos:
Yhwach:

 

[Jin2188]

You're right, @Robo432343. I'm obsessed with these matchups. I wanted to reject you, convince myself that you were wrong. But that doesn't matter now. I'm gonna make another Yhwach matchup. Even if you get this thread closed, I'll make another Yhwach matchup. Slander me. Call staff. I'll make a Yhwach matchup again. I don't need to find meaning or a reason. Maybe a hundred years after I get banned, the meaning behind my actions will become apparent. In the grand scheme of things, I'm probably nothing more than a biased idiot. But I'll keep making Yhwach matchups for as long as I can. That is my role in all of this.

 

[Lycoris4812]

You're right, @Robo432343. I'm obsessed with these matchups. I wanted to reject you, convince myself that you were wrong. But that doesn't matter now. I'm gonna make another Yhwach matchup. Even if you get this thread closed, I'll make another Yhwach matchup. Slander me. Call staff. I'll make a Yhwach matchup again. I don't need to find meaning or a reason. Maybe a hundred years after I get banned, the meaning behind my actions will become apparent. In the grand scheme of things, I'm probably nothing more than a biased idiot. But I'll keep making Yhwach matchups for as long as I can. That is my role in all of this.

 

[FoxySonicMaster108]

You're right, @Robo432343. I'm obsessed with these matchups. I wanted to reject you, convince myself that you were wrong. But that doesn't matter now. I'm gonna make another Yhwach matchup. Even if you get this thread closed, I'll make another Yhwach matchup. Slander me. Call staff. I'll make a Yhwach matchup again. I don't need to find meaning or a reason. Maybe a hundred years after I get banned, the meaning behind my actions will become apparent. In the grand scheme of things, I'm probably nothing more than a biased idiot. But I'll keep making Yhwach matchups for as long as I can. That is my role in all of this.

It's not that deep bruh

Anyways what does Yhwach even do?

 

[Mbpoops]

Why does bro hate youhabaha

 

[Fallen_Angelicx]

You're right, @Robo432343. I'm obsessed with these matchups. I wanted to reject you, convince myself that you were wrong. But that doesn't matter now. I'm gonna make another Yhwach matchup. Even if you get this thread closed, I'll make another Yhwach matchup. Slander me. Call staff. I'll make a Yhwach matchup again. I don't need to find meaning or a reason. Maybe a hundred years after I get banned, the meaning behind my actions will become apparent. In the grand scheme of things, I'm probably nothing more than a biased idiot. But I'll keep making Yhwach matchups for as long as I can. That is my role in all of this.

Top Ten Users who made Antvasima and The Staff Team feel genuine fear.

 

[BloodyBloodwork365]

It's not that deep bruh

Anyways what does Yhwach even do?

Inhales meme
Fate Manipulation
Negation Resistance
Resistance Negation
Fear Manipulation
Probability Manipulation
Event Reversal
Impossibility Manifestation
Immortality
Death Negation
Event Negation
Resistance to Power Nullification
Acasuality
Can see acausal beings in the future
Love Manipulation
Extra Defenses (Blut Vene, Blut Vene Anhaben, The Iron)
Extra Speed (Hirenkyaku)
Can fight after sustaining serious wounds (Ransoutengai)
Deconstruction (Blut Vene Anhaben, Sankt Zwinger)
Power Stealing (Sankt Altar)
Blood Manipulation
Soul Manipulation
Existence Erasure
Reactive Evolution
Accelerated Development
Imagination Manifestation
Durability Negation
Instant Attack
Infinite Range
Reality Warping
Vector Manipulation
...I could go on, honestly. Yhwach is practically a Medaka Box character lmao.
All that being said, I've heard Kratos wins this due to resisting all these haxes and more. Not casting a vote until later, though.

 

[Mbpoops]

Kranktoes negates

 

[Jin2188]

Why does bro hate youhabaha

I don't hate anybody. Quite the contrary, I think Yhwach's abilities are really interesting. What I hate is that it's so hard to find a matchup for him where he doesn't either get cratered immediately or pimp slap his opponent to the shadow realm.

 

[FoxySonicMaster108]

Not reading all that.
...I could go on, honestly. Yhwach is practically a Medaka Box character lmao.
All that being said, I've heard Kratos wins this due to resisting all these haxes and more. Not casting a vote until later, though.

Okay but can Yhwach create 100 powers though
Anyway, yeah that's basically my point, I think Kratos just one shots here LOL

 

[Planck69]

Kratos oneshots with basically any attack cause of Soul Magic. He also has resistance to Almighty on roids cause the Fates can affect multiple temporal dimensions with their time/fate/probability manipulation.

I guess Existence Erasure is a win condition in this key for Yhwach but he's up against an opponent who has Information Analysis, Instinctive Action and Precognition/Retrocognition/Clairvoyance, who'd know that he can just end it immediately.

The rest is resisted hard.

 

[BloodyBloodwork365]

Having just read Kratos' profile, I don't actually see anything in the Ghost of Sparda key that would be able to beat Yhwach. Immortality negation doesn't matter because Yhwach can just erase his death from the future, and power negation also doesn't work because Yhwach already resisted that from Ichibei. In fact, we know The Almighty resists at least baseline power negation, since all of Yhwach's other abilities were negated by Ichimonji (Which should also have Negation Resistance, on account of negating Blut Vene). The Still Silver Arrow just has an additional layer, probably helped by the fact that it was Uryu 'Special' Ishida who fired it.
Kratos seems to comfortably resist all of Yhwach's hax, but I don't see anything in Kratos' GoS key that would stop Yhwach from copying all his powers and then accelerating his already accelerated development and reactive evolution with The Miracle, The Superstar, and The Compulsory.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

Kratos sola the verse, Yhwach is going to get beaten up in countless possible futures

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Yhawach vs Roided Anti-Yhawach. Moustache man couldn't even beat Kratos from outdated 3 years ago lol.

 

[Planck69]

Having just read Kratos' profile, I don't actually see anything in the Ghost of Sparda key that would be able to beat Yhwach. Immortality negation doesn't matter because Yhwach can just erase his death from the future, and power negation also doesn't work because Yhwach already resisted that from Ichibei. In fact, we know The Almighty resists at least baseline power negation, since all of Yhwach's other abilities were negated by Ichimonji (Which should also have Negation Resistance, on account of negating Blut Vene). The Still Silver Arrow just has an additional layer, probably helped by the fact that it was Uryu 'Special' Ishida who fired it.
Kratos seems to comfortably resist all of Yhwach's hax, but I don't see anything in Kratos' GoS key that would stop Yhwach from copying all his powers and then accelerating his already accelerated development and reactive evolution with The Miracle, The Superstar, and The Compulsory.

Yhwach would have to be able to come back from Type 1 concept/Type 2 information destruction. Kratos's own resistances are layered, and he can offensively just adapt and overcome any resistance Yhwach has (like he did with the Fates and Castor mid-fight).

Kratos also beat clones of himself with all of his powers so that's not even new for him.

 

[Jin2188]

Could it be? Have I finally found an actually debatable Yhwach matchup? They said it could not be done.

 

[BloodyBloodwork365]

Kratos sola the verse, Yhwach is going to get beaten up in countless possible futures

That's not how The Almighty works. Once Yhwach was splattered with ink, every single possible future should've been Ichibei killing him, but The Almighty brought him back from it anyway. Later, he breaks Ichigo's sword in all possible futures. I want you to read the way that's worded. It isn't that Yhwach 'locked' Ichigo in one future. He looked at all futures, and altered them so that Ichigo's Bankai would be broken in all of them.
He absolute can swap between any future he wants, be he is also able to directly alter those futures, in a similar way to how Tsukishima can warp reality by altering the events of the past. So even if he dies in every possible future (And for the sake of argument, we're assuming Kratos is invisible to his sight), he can simply decide that no, he doesn't die in any of them, and then Kratos is continuously wailing on this guy while somehow not killing him.

 

[Planck69]

Could it be? Have I finally found an actually debatable Yhwach matchup? They said it could not be done.

Doubtful. Kratos stomped 3 years ago and has gotten orders of magnitude stronger since.

 

[Planck69]

That's not how The Almighty works. Once Yhwach was splattered with ink, every single possible future should've been Ichibei killing him, but The Almighty brought him back from it anyway. Later, he breaks Ichigo's sword in all possible futures. I want you to read the way that's worded. It isn't that Yhwach 'locked' Ichigo in one future. He looked at all futures, and altered them so that Ichigo's Bankai would be broken in all of them.
He absolute can swap between any future he wants, be he is also able to directly alter those futures, in a similar way to how Tsukishima can warp reality by altering the events of the past. So even if he dies in every possible future (And for the sake of argument, we're assuming Kratos is invisible to his sight), he can simply decide that no, he doesn't die in any of them, and then Kratos is continuously wailing on this guy while somehow not killing him.

Why would the Almighty work against anything Kratos can do? The Fates have a superior version of this and couldn't do anything about him.

 

[BloodyBloodwork365]

Yhwach would have to be able to come back from Type 1 concept/Type 2 information destruction. Kratos's own resistances are layered, and he can offensively just adapt and overcome any resistance Yhwach has (like he did with the Fates and Castor mid-fight).

Kratos also beat clones of himself with all of his powers so that's not even new for him.

Last I remember, Futen Tatsaisuryo should also do this. The implication is that it completely eradicates you, Hakai-style, and Yhwach basically let Ichibei do the whole thing before just killing him.

Did these clones have better reactive evolution and accelerated devlopment than Kratos? That's what he would be fighting in this scenario.

 

[BloodyBloodwork365]

Why would the Almighty work against anything Kratos can do? The Fates have a superior version of this and couldn't do anything about him.

That's not what I'm arguing. I'm arguing that Yhwach could look into his own future (That he somehow still has after absorbing Mimihagi, it's weird), see his own death, and remove it as an event.

 

[Planck69]

Last I remember, Futen Tatsaisuryo should also do this. The implication is that it completely eradicates you, Hakai-style, and Yhwach basically let Ichibei do the whole thing before just killing him.

Did these clones have better reactive evolution and accelerated devlopment than Kratos? That's what he would be fighting in this scenario.

Unless I'm reading wrong, nothing in Bleach has Type 1 concept hax or Type 2 information Manipulation. So no, there really isn't anything of this magnitude in Bleach.

Better how? Kratos's own baseline RE is so fast he develops new resistances instantly the moment hax is used on him (Persephone) or just overcomes resistances immediately (Lahkesis). They had that.

That's not what I'm arguing. I'm arguing that Yhwach could look into his own future (That he somehow still has after absorbing Mimihagi, it's weird), see his own death, and remove it as an event.

Kratos can offensively nullify powers with his strikes and this null works on a conceptual level. It worked against Castor's use of the Amulet of Ouroboros, which granted him Precognition/Postcognition/Clairvoyance, and the power of the Fates as well.

 

[Jin2188]

So should I put @Planck69 as voting for Kratos and @BloodyBloodwork365 as voting for Yhwach?

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

That's not what I'm arguing. I'm arguing that Yhwach could look into his own future (That he somehow still has after absorbing Mimihagi, it's weird), see his own death, and remove it as an event.

Has it reversed or prevented or erased his death caused by someone who is acausal and negs fate and causal manip to high heavans? Entangling Yh's fate with Kratos means he can no longer manipulate his own fate. Kratos negs harder than silver arrow.

 

[Kellex]

Love Manipulation

I'm sorry, but what?

 

[Jin2188]

I'm sorry, but what?

He has the Sternritter's Schrifts, which would include this guy.

 

[BloodyBloodwork365]

Unless I'm reading wrong, nothing in Bleach has Type 1 concept hax or Type 2 information Manipulation. So no, there really isn't anything of this magnitude in Bleach.

Better how? Kratos's own baseline RE is so fast he develops new resistances instantly the moment hax is used on him (Persephone) or just overcomes resistances immediately (Lahkesis). They had that.


Kratos can offensively nullify powers with his strikes and this null works on a conceptual level. It worked against Castor's use of the Amulet of Ouroboros, which granted him Precognition/Postcognition/Clairvoyance, and the power of the Fates as well.

You listed it as a conceptual ability, which Ichimonji very much is.

Better not only in that Yhwach can layer his own reactive evolution and accelerated devlopment on top of Kratos' (Even if it were only marginally better, it's still better), but also in that The Compulsory seems to improve the powers it copies anyway. Pernida, for example, was able to turn the skin-shedding ability of Mayuri's Bankai into an ability that can somehow also completely replace all the nerves in its body, within moments of first getting the power.

Conceptual level nullification already failed against The Almighty.

That's another thing too, I just realized. While The Almighty blocks out opponents' powers from affecting Yhwach, he can presumably affect himself with his own powers, meaning he could also use The Compulsory, theoretically, to enhance The Almighty.

Also, with the two being roughly the same tier, can Kratos actually kill Yhwach fast enough that he couldn't outstrip in adaptation? I haven't seen anything in Soul Magic that positions it as any sort of instant win against arguably the most soul-resistant guy from a verse of characters who resist soul manipulation.

 

[BloodyBloodwork365]

I'm sorry, but what?

He can force you to fall in love with him. It's the power of Sternritter L, PePe Waccabrada.
Yhwach was given 27 additional abilities at-minimum in this thread.
~He can also exponentionally increase his own power by perfectly cloning himself with The Visionary theoretically thousands of times within seconds but shh~

 

[BloodyBloodwork365]

Has it reversed or prevented or erased his death caused by someone who is acausal and negs fate and causal manip to high heavans? Entangling Yh's fate with Kratos means he can no longer manipulate his own fate. Kratos negs harder than silver arrow.

Yhwach, himself, should be acausal, due to Mimihagi. He also arguably negs fate from Ichigo (Though I find it iffy that Ichigo supposedly even has that power lol), along with causal manip from Orihime.

 

[Planck69]

You listed it as a conceptual ability, which Ichimonji very much is.

Better not only in that Yhwach can layer his own reactive evolution and accelerated devlopment on top of Kratos' (Even if it were only marginally better, it's still better), but also in that The Compulsory seems to improve the powers it copies anyway. Pernida, for example, was able to turn the skin-shedding ability of Mayuri's Bankai into an ability that can somehow also completely replace all the nerves in its body, within moments of first getting the power.

Conceptual level nullification already failed against The Almighty.

That's another thing too, I just realized. While The Almighty blocks out opponents' powers from affecting Yhwach, he can presumably affect himself with his own powers, meaning he could also use The Compulsory, theoretically, to enhance The Almighty.

Also, with the two being roughly the same tier, can Kratos actually kill Yhwach fast enough that he couldn't outstrip in adaptation? I haven't seen anything in Soul Magic that positions it as any sort of instant win against arguably the most soul-resistant guy from a verse of characters who resist soul manipulation.

There are different levels of conceptual manipulation and one in Bleach resists or has Type 1 Conceptual manipulation, so yes, this is well beyond Yhwach's ability to handle. Same with Type 2 information Manipulation.

 

[BloodyBloodwork365]

There are different levels of conceptual manipulation and one in Bleach resists or has Type 1 Conceptual manipulation, so yes, this is well beyond Yhwach's ability to handle. Same with Type 2 information Manipulation.

...Having just looked through GoS Kratos' innate abilities, weapons, artifacts etc., I see nothing about Type 2 Info Manip. Could you point me where this key of Kratos has this and the context in how it's used?

 

[Planck69]

...Having just looked through GoS Kratos' innate abilities, weapons, artifacts etc., I see nothing about Type 2 Info Manip. Could you point me where this key of Kratos has this and the context in how it's used?

....Literally just click "Soul Magic" (any time you see it) and read.

 

[Jin2188]

There are different levels of conceptual manipulation and one in Bleach resists or has Type 1 Conceptual manipulation, so yes, this is well beyond Yhwach's ability to handle. Same with Type 2 information Manipulation.

Concept Type 1 isn't necessarily more powerful than Type 2. They're just different types.

 

[BloodyBloodwork365]

....Literally just click "Soul Magic" (any time you see it) and read.

Okay, I just did.
...And this is literally what Ichibei also has. Yhwach has already become immune to it.
Is the guy whose entire powerset is based around the idea of true names and the power they give not accepted to have any powers related to that?

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

Concept Type 1 isn't necessarily more powerful than Type 2. They're just different types.

 

[Planck69]

Okay, I just did.
...And this is literally what Ichibei also has. Yhwach has already become immune to it.
Is the guy whose entire powerset is based around the idea of true names and the power they give not accepted to have any powers related to that?

Ichibei has Type 2. Kratos has Type 1.

 

[BloodyBloodwork365]

Ichibei has Type 2. Kratos has Type 1.

Fair enough.
I'm going to just assume that this oneshots Yhwach. Nothing else in Soul Magic's description seems to support that and I still don't fully know how the conceptual part plays into it, but I'm going to play Devil's Advocate here and say that it does.

How in-character is it for Kratos to open with this? He needs to immediately rush Yhwach down and murder him with it before Yhwach:
A. Perfectly copies Kratos' powers and resistances (Royd was able to perfectly copy Pre-Almighty Yhwach's own powers, even though we know from Yamamoto that Yhwach should've been able to negate Royd's hax through sheer Reiatsu. How big of a gap is 3-A and High 3-A that we're to assume Yhwach just can't do this?). He can do this near-instantly if he can do it, by the way. It would be his opening move if he came into the fight with that strategy.
B. Clones himself thousands of times. These are perfect clones of him capable of everything he is, but there's still only one real 'him' that Kratos would have to barrel past the others to get to.
C. Has all the clones immediately start enhancing all their own abilities, including what Kratos already has, with The Compulsory (Ignoring The Miracle and its own BS).
D. Has the army surround and attack Kratos. He himself can sit back and plan something else in the meantime.

 

[Planck69]

Fair enough.
I'm going to just assume that this oneshots Yhwach. Nothing else in Soul Magic's description seems to support that and I still don't fully know how the conceptual part plays into it, but I'm going to play Devil's Advocate here and say that it does.

How in-character is it for Kratos to open with this? He needs to immediately rush Yhwach down and murder him with it before Yhwach:
A. Perfectly copies Kratos' powers and resistances (Royd was able to perfectly copy Pre-Almighty Yhwach's own powers, even though we know from Yamamoto that Yhwach should've been able to negate Royd's hax through sheer Reiatsu. How big of a gap is 3-A and High 3-A that we're to assume Yhwach just can't do this?). He can do this near-instantly if he can do it, by the way.
B. Clones himself thousands of times.
C. Has all the clones immediately start enhancing all their own abilities, including what Kratos already has, with The Compulsory (Ignoring The Miracle and its own BS).
D. Has the army surround and attack Kratos.

There are entire sections of that same page dedicated to why Soul Magic is information/concept, the power section is just a short hand.

And it's inherent to his magic/soul. He doesn't have to "activate" it.

Yhwach can't copy his abilities either cause his magic is a Type 1 concept, which doesn't exist in Bleach.

Clone spam is something he already handled and they had his own powers to boot.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Fair enough.
I'm going to just assume that this oneshots Yhwach. Nothing else in Soul Magic's description seems to support that and I still don't fully know how the conceptual part plays into it, but I'm going to play Devil's Advocate here and say that it does.

How in-character is it for Kratos to open with this? He needs to immediately rush Yhwach down and murder him with it before Yhwach:
A. Perfectly copies Kratos' powers and resistances (Royd was able to perfectly copy Pre-Almighty Yhwach's own powers, even though we know from Yamamoto that Yhwach should've been able to negate Royd's hax through sheer Reiatsu. How big of a gap is 3-A and High 3-A that we're to assume Yhwach just can't do this?). He can do this near-instantly if he can do it, by the way. It would be his opening move if he came into the fight with that strategy.
B. Clones himself thousands of times. These are perfect clones of him capable of everything he is, but there's still only one real 'him' that Kratos would have to barrel past the others to get to.
C. Has all the clones immediately start enhancing all their own abilities, including what Kratos already has, with The Compulsory (Ignoring The Miracle and its own BS).
D. Has the army surround and attack Kratos. He himself can sit back and plan something else in the meantime.

An army. That Kratos can one-shot on accident via hax by trying to AoE out Yhwach himself.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Kairos Fateweaver

Kairos Fateweaver is the personal vizier of the Chaos God Tzeentch and a powerful Lord of Change. In order for Tzeentch to figure out what was at the heart of the Well of Eternity, a well which sat at the center of the Impossible Fortress and the place from which all of time and space is said to...

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I got the match for Yhwach tho!