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One Piece General Discussion: Elbaph

I mean like you don't have to tell everybody
Nah I definitely do, because there’s a chance someone else might try to say something to paint it weirdly 🦧 and it can also easily be viewed as suspicious



Edit: Its been a whole day without using my pc and limited phone access, at the start it gets kinda difficult, the world kinda attacks and goes against you, and after you feel bored and don’t know what to do. But then you start to just do something and gain peace. For me it brought me even closer to Christ Jesus, made me take care of my body even more and those around me, caring for them and loving them. Even loving and caring for all the people on here. I hope you guys experience that peace and love as well 🙈♥️ just wanted to share that with you guys real quick

Still will be inactive, and then go on vacation with family to Egypt for a week 🙉 hopefully the journey won’t be annoying tho 🙈 and will instead make me grow ✋🦧🤚
monyetguru-ape.gif
 
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Question: Can we 100% say Vegapunk/Punk Records outperform IRL Supercomputers? Though i'm pretty sure that's the case, thought i might ask

Question 2: Considering the above as true, can we say Vegapunk's able to solve chess, using prep time?
 
Question: Can we 100% say Vegapunk/Punk Records outperform IRL Supercomputers? Though i'm pretty sure that's the case, thought i might ask

Question 2: Considering the above as true, can we say Vegapunk's able to solve chess, using prep time?
1: Vegapunks profile is a little outdated but his technology is a lot better than any modern day supercomputer given he can make technology that can physically interact with light, can cyborgize his brain and upload his memories into Punk Records and have six robot clones come out of it. He's considered 500 years ahead of his contemporaries and is an expert in both biology (can flat out clone Devil Fruits) and technology, though his Intelligence only goes up to EG

2: Yes.... He's not skill diffing Rimuru in chess though imo
 
He's not skill diffing Rimuru in chess though imo
So you know my game, huh?

1: Vegapunks profile is a little outdated but his technology is a lot better than any modern day supercomputer given he can make technology that can physically interact with light, can cyborgize his brain and upload his memories into Punk Records and have six robot clones come out of it. He's considered 500 years ahead of his contemporaries and is an expert in both biology (can flat out clone Devil Fruits) and technology, though his Intelligence only goes up to EG
Think i've noticed some outdated points and that a great part of this should be in his intelligence section instead of... literally nothing

2: Yes....
If that's the case, i suppose i'll get an incon to his page in a while if people say so too
 
Btw Im thinking a minor CRT for Luffy just to add two abilities:

Add Bodily Weaponry to pre-timeskip and add Unconvential to all of them since we see that he attacks a lot of the time with his stretched out limbs, not solely foot or fist.

Also add Broadway Force (at least minor) via his heartbeat given that during Egghead the sound of his heartbeat kept the giants dancing even though Dorry and Broggy wanted to put out the ships fire.

thoughts?
 
Btw Im thinking a minor CRT for Luffy just to add two abilities:

Add Bodily Weaponry to pre-timeskip and add Unconvential to all of them since we see that he attacks a lot of the time with his stretched out limbs, not solely foot or fist.
stretched out limbs are just his regular limbs enhanced. bodily weaponry is bodyparts that aren't regular that are weaponized. tails for example
Also add Broadway Force (at least minor) via his heartbeat given that during Egghead the sound of his heartbeat kept the giants dancing even though Dorry and Broggy wanted to put out the ships fire.
eh, not valid since his opponents never dance
 
Is this old matchup between Doffy and Dressrossa Luffy still valid? I saw it was confirmed in an SBS he could’ve beaten Doffy without interference, the thread is from almost a decade ago
 
Yooo, I remember you 🤔 you been lurking or something? Haven't seen you in awhile

I don't even know what happened to Marco, I believe maybe interactions with shanks? Idk 🙈 need to watch the show 🙈
Just not really active in the forum, look in here every once in a while. Ye he left with shanks.
 
I’m curious, how much this affects the current tiering. Would this make the 5-C characters Low 5-B?
Anyone who fully scale, upscale and at least genuinely downscale from Whitebeard (and from other Top Tiers like the Admirals and Emperors) should get Low 5-B since the value its above baseline, by more than 10 times.

But like i say i do think there would need some revision on the current scaling since i do think there are some serious issues like having guys like Ace getting 5-B from Post Gura Blackbeard despite the fact that he was potrayed as much stronger than them, or having characters not getting similar tier despite having/scaling from feats similar to them (like Base Yamato or Katakuri).

To be honest when it come to Top Commander Tier characters (All Stars, Sweet Commanders, Ace, Jozu, Vista, Jinbei, and etc.), i think at best they should get a 'possibly Low 5-B'.
 
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I hate to use the actually meme, but they have Kuzan. Plus, you can include my goat Shiryu, nah lol. Side note, but he really needs a restraining order around old people. Hate to be like this but 99% of his feats are stabbing sick and old folks, like I see why he wanted the Clear-Clear Fruit. Couldn’t take a risk against Garp unless he had cataracts, and he couldn’t wait for nature to kick in.
 
Because his feats don’t involve killing a broken old man and he actually fought several strong people inside and out of that arc
Yeah he fought Sengoku and later even Garp, and while i don't believe the former isn't necessarely on par with Garp he should still be around the levels of the other admirals (thought i do believe he a bit weaker than them).

This its also the reason why i completely disagree with the current scaling for Ace, Jozu and Vista with them supposedly fully scale to that BB, despite the fact that at this point he should be above your regular Top Commander.
 
Vista fought Mihawk as an equal and it the best swordsman on the crew
Ace fought Blackbeard and canonically Blackbeard getting the Yami2 was "the power that let him beat ace" implying he wouldn't beat him without it, especially after he wounded him several times, plus he scarred whitebeard
Jozu took off aokiji's lower body and stalemated him until he was offguard
 
Vista fought Mihawk as an equal and it the best swordsman on the crew
While Vista did briefly occupy Mihawk, and Mihawk acknowledged his skill, Mihawk wasn't get pushed to going all out or even using his true strength.

Ace fought Blackbeard and canonically Blackbeard getting the Yami2 was "the power that let him beat ace" implying he wouldn't beat him without it, especially after he wounded him several times, plus he scarred whitebeard
I doubt Blackbeard needed the Yami Yami no Mi to win. Even before that fight, he was able to scar Shanks, and Shanks himself stated that he was not caught off guard. Which its even more impressive thanks of the Elbaf's flashback, where Shanks is shown as relative to Gaban in the past (one out of prime but still younger than the current one) when facing God Knight Harald. That same Shanks already had Advanced Conqueror’s Haki which its why he could damage Harald.

Because of that, I do not think Ace would have won even without the Yami, which its also why Shanks wanted WB to stop Ace. Blackbeard was simply on another level, and this was before he acquired the Quake Fruit, where it allow him to clash with Old Sengoku and even Garp. Yet even then, Blackbeard still avoided direct fights with Shanks and Akainu, implying those matchups would have been too risky or too close for him. By contrast, when he fought the remnants of the Whitebeard Pirates, he wiped them out with Marco admit it that they had no chance.

Jozu took off aokiji's lower body and stalemated him until he was offguard
Regarding Jozu and Aokiji, yes, Jozu did make Aokiji bleed. However, Aokiji had just been stabbed by Whitebeard’s naginata, so he was not in the best position to defend himself. Like Vista, Jozu managed to occupy a stronger opponent for a time, but one distraction was enough for Aokiji to freeze him and remove him from the fight.

Still, even besides all of this, for me the main issue with these characters truly scaling to Low 5-B is simply due to the power creep that occured in Wano and after which kinda make gap between Top Commanders and other Top Tiers far wider, principally because of two factors:

- Base Kaido one-shot Boundman Luffy, even though a weaker Boundman had previously overpowered Doflamingo’s strings. The same who were durable enough to physically restrain Jozu, withstand Fujitora’s casual attacks via his meteors (and while at first glance it may not be impressive, tanking casual attacks from Top Tiers are feats that only Top Commanders had ever show at that point in the story). As well as be too durable for Kin’emon to cut, despite him being comparable to the stronger Scabbards like Ashura Doji, Nekomamushi, and Inuarashi, who scale around Jack's level.

Not to mention later Boundman was able to push Big Mom to use Armament Haki to clash with him. While it did force Luffy back to Base, it still very impressive when you consider that, in comparison, a Big Mom with amnesia could physically overpower Zoan Form Queen without using Haki, just her natural strength. Even Post-Udon Luffy was still portrayed as too physically weak to truly damage Kaido or Big Mom, and had to rely on Dura Neg. Only with Advanced Conqueror’s Haki was he now on a level of strength where he could actually damage them.

- Greenbull defeated Queen and King, while stating that it should shame himself if someone like him would lose against mere Commanders, making it clear that Admirals are suppost to above most Top Commanders.

Which its later proven true, with Aokiji fighting on par with Old Garp, who should be around Old Whitebeard when healthy and Shanks (the same Shanks who, when going all out, could overwhelm Kid’s Awakening and one-shot him, someone who can survive multiple attacks from a stronger version of Big Mom. Who should also be relative to Law, who could fight Post-Timeskip Blackbeard for a while before losing), and Borsalino fighting on par Gear 5th Luffy, which can be reasonably assume to be as strong as Hybrid Form Kaido (and even before Gear 5th, it could be argued that Post-ACoC Luffy may have surpassed someone like Big Mom, with Kaido even admitting that he had not had that much fun in a long time, despite having clashed on part with Big Mom a few days earlier in his Base).
 
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Still, even besides all of this, for me the main issue with these characters truly scaling to Low 5-B is simply due to the power creep that occured in Wano and after which kinda make gap between Top Commanders and other Top Tiers far wider, principally because of two factors:

- Base Kaido one-shot Boundman Luffy, even though a weaker Boundman had previously overpowered Doflamingo’s strings. The same who were durable enough to physically restrain Jozu, withstand Fujitora’s casual attacks via his meteors (and while at first glance it may not be impressive, tanking casual attacks from Top Tiers are feats that only Top Commanders had ever show at that point in the story). As well as be too durable for Kin’emon to cut, despite him being comparable to the stronger Scabbards like Ashura Doji, Nekomamushi, and Inuarashi, who scale around Jack's level.

Not to mention later Boundman was able to push Big Mom to use Armament Haki to clash with him. While it did force Luffy back to Base, it still very impressive when you consider that, in comparison, a Big Mom with amnesia could physically overpower Zoan Form Queen without using Haki, just her natural strength. Even Post-Udon Luffy was still portrayed as too physically weak to truly damage Kaido or Big Mom, and had to rely on Dura Neg. Only with Advanced Conqueror’s Haki was he now on a level of strength where he could actually damage them.

First, I believe the main reason for why Jozu, Vista and Marco to a lesses extent scales to the value of Low 5B is simply because there is no way a mid tier 6 guy (the next highest scaling value) could do the things they did. The only outlier is literally Doffy and his strings but he has narrative backing to not even downscale due to being directly stated below 2 "YC3" in Jack (Kaido called him strong and Doffy weak) and Cracker (Big Mom sent him to deal with Luffy even after knowing he beat up Doffy) while the rest of them don't.
Vista stopping Mihawk may not seem like a valid feat but every time vista is mentioned in any regard, that single page bout is glazed a lot by the narrator so that has some "narrative".
Ace has whis whole manga showing his prowess + highdiffing Yami black beard + comoletely nullifying and attack from Kuzan after many days of torture in Impeldown.
Jozu only has the offguard Doffy string that is more of an LS antifeat but his speed, ap and dura all downscale to the top tiers + I've seen around that the slash he stopped from Mihawk was "the strongest slash" but did not search for a source on that.
If you want to, you can say that Vista and Marco don't really scale to the admirals (and thus the top tiers) due their failled attempts to fight Akainu who is relative to Kuzan, and then only Ace and maybe Jozu still scales with the Marine ford scaling chain being something like: Vista and Marco<<akainu=Kuzan~>Tortured Ace and Jozu.

On the Boundman stuf, Big Mom using Haki does not mean she needed it. She uses whenever she feels like it (plot makes her stupid you've read the raid) and only makes both be weaker than no homies Big Mom and thus making those forms and those who scale to them weaker than Base Kaido and Big Mom, but when both are manhandling higher tier commanders when serious like Big Mom did Marco, that does not mean much especially since the only link between Jozu and this scaling chain is Doffy and due to other feats the outlier in on Doffy not the diamknd fella and even then its only LS + Wano Kaido and Big Mom should be unironically higher in the scaling chain dan any of the admirals during marineford so I don't see anything that contradicts the scaling of the guys on Marineford.
The rest is mostly true but you forgot the biggest commander<Top Tier feats wktch is Akainu face tanking due to higher haki (abservation like kat or armament you can choose) Marco and Vista.
The last thing is, My big mom agenda stops me from agreeing that G5 Luffy outscaling Big Mom as a whole due to her having having some statements that make her cracked despite her showing (Roger did not want the smoke) unless you also agree that G5 Luffy > Kaido as well.
 
The only outlier is literally Doffy and his strings but he has narrative backing to not even downscale due to being directly stated below 2 "YC3" in Jack (Kaido called him strong and Doffy weak) and Cracker (Big Mom sent him to deal with Luffy even after knowing he beat up Doffy) while the rest of them don't.
Doflamingo himself its physically inferior Jack and Cracker, however its his Strings which matter here, as they consistenly display far greater tougher than Doffy himself, his Strings do legit scale to Jozu's Durability/Lifting Strength.

As even after Marineford, in Dressrosa (prior of Gear 4th) his strings where show to be virtually indestructible against most, they could even tank Gear 3rd blows, where Doffy himself (despite having physical superior) could still get injured by Gear 2nd Luffy. The Birdcage itself couldn't be either stopped or damaged, with characters like Zoro and Kin’emon capable only to slow it down.

To remind you, Kin’emon was one of the four Nine Red Scabbards which that actually make Zoan Kaido bleed (but not actually damage him) with a combo attack, and while i don't think that definitely put him above Boundman (since it was a collective attack), its still worth feat, not to mention him be comparable to Ashura Doji, Nekomamushi, and Inuarashi who fought on par with Jack.

And while Fujitora wasn't going all out, the fact that his casual level of strength couldn't break the Birdcage (either with his meteors or when he start using his Haki against the strings) do further validate the scaling, as again prior of them the only characters who could actually withstand casual attacks from Admirals where people like Jozu, Vista and Ace.

The only issue would be the Black Knight be able to be shatter by Gear 2nd Luffy as well as be damaged by weaker foes, however i do feel like the Black Knight its meant to be that strong as its suppost to work as distraction or trick the enemy into believing they where facing the true Doflamingo, and that the reason why he could maintain that technique for long period of time its because the strings where weaker making it less stamina consuming.

Which its plausible as other moves like Overheat he can alter the proprieties of the strings, making them hotter, so its more than likely that he can also alter their density/durability, making them weaker when using Black Knight or stronger when using Parasite, Birdcage or other more combat oriented techniques.

If you want to, you can say that Vista and Marco don't really scale to the admirals (and thus the top tiers) due their failled attempts to fight Akainu who is relative to Kuzan, and then only Ace and maybe Jozu still scales with the Marine ford scaling chain being something like: Vista and Marco<<akainu=Kuzan~>Tortured Ace and Jozu.
I don't include Marco with them as unlike the other, he does have actual feats and statements that could put him at fully Low 5-B (which i feel should only be fully applied to what people usually refer to Top Commander+ Tier like Onigashima/Post Wano Kidd, Onigashima/Post Wano Law, Zoan Forms Yamato, Post ACoC Zoro and Post ACoC Base Luffy, Awakening Form Lucci).

From the Gorosei believing him be one of the few people who could potentially stop Blackbeard along side the Emperors, him able to briefly match Big Mom with her admitting that she would have needed all her Homies to fight him, or him actually able to outmatch/outspeed both King and Queen at the same time before losing due of Stamina.

On the Boundman stuf, Big Mom using Haki does not mean she needed it. She uses whenever she feels like it (plot makes her stupid you've read the raid)
The true stupid moment started only during the raid, before that and especially in Whole Cake she hasn't show the same degree of PIS moments. Beside that if Big Mom didn't need Armament Haki to clash with Boundman why she would have done it in the first place?

Like she may be far from be the smartest person but i doubt she its the type to put effort when not necessary, she does have Observation Haki and she know when someone its actually a genuine threat or not (like how she warned Kaido to avoid Zoro's Emna attack), so there are to be a reason why she choose to use Armament Haki where she could have just use her natural durability/strength.

and only makes both be weaker than no homies Big Mom and thus making those forms and those who scale to them weaker than Base Kaido and Big Mom, but when both are manhandling higher tier commanders when serious like Big Mom did Marco
Like i say i do think Marco its the exception as he actually had a far more solid case of him fully scale to Low 5-B due of the previously mention feats and statements, as well as general potrayal.

So her needing the Homies to actually defeat Marco isn't an issue, especially when this its the same guy who could outmatch both King and Queen at the same time, where Zoan Queen himself was getting tossed around by an even weaker Big Mom who lost her memories, didn't have her Homies and didn't see to be able to properly use Haki (or at least against Queen she didn't need it to ovepower him).
 
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Doflamingo himself its physically inferior Jack and Cracker, however its his Strings which matter here, as they consistenly display far greater tougher than Doffy himself, his Strings do legit scale to Jozu's Durability/Lifting Strength.

As even after Marineford, in Dressrosa (prior of Gear 4th) his strings where show to be virtually indestructible against most, they could even tank Gear 3rd blows, where Doffy himself (despite having physical superior) could still get injured by Gear 2nd Luffy. The Birdcage itself couldn't be either stopped or damaged, with characters like Zoro and Kin’emon capable only to slow it down.

To remind you, Kin’emon was one of the four Nine Red Scabbards which that actually make Zoan Kaido bleed (but not actually damage him) with a combo attack, and while i don't think that definitely put him above Boundman (since it was a collective attack), its still worth feat, not to mention him be comparable to Ashura Doji, Nekomamushi, and Inuarashi who fought on par with Jack.

And while Fujitora wasn't going all out, the fact that his casual level of strength couldn't break the Birdcage (either with his meteors or when he start using his Haki against the strings) do further validate the scaling, as again prior of them the only characters who could actually withstand casual attacks from Admirals where people like Jozu, Vista and Ace.

The only issue would be the Black Knight be able to be shatter by Gear 2nd Luffy as well as be damaged by weaker foes, however i do feel like the Black Knight its meant to be that strong as its suppost to work as distraction or trick the enemy into believing they where facing the true Doflamingo, and that the reason why he could maintain that technique for long period of time its because the strings where weaker making it less stamina consuming.

Which its plausible as other moves like Overheat he can alter the proprieties of the strings, making them hotter, so its more than likely that he can also alter their density/durability, making them weaker when using Black Knight or stronger when using Parasite, Birdcage or other more combat oriented techniques.

The strings are overall weaker than Dressrosa Boundman and so overall weaker than Cracker thus weaker than a One Shot Gap between those who are relative to the Yonko and that is a contradiction with the feat on Jozu due to him stalling Kuzan and also making Kuzan bleed with a tackle.
The Kin'emon for me is a weird case since in Dressrosa and Punk hazard he was a jobbing so hard that he should be weaker than Doffy, but Kaido himself considers the Scabbards to be "strong" when Doffy is "weak". For me, I'll take the Issho excuse of only wanting to push the birdcage and not breaking it due to saving some headache and even then breaking some strings don't help much since it can be remade + not destroying it whole, wouldn't stop the desrtuction it would cause.

The true stupid moment started only during the raid, before that and especially in Whole Cake she hasn't show the same degree of PIS moments. Beside that if Big Mom didn't need Armament Haki to clash with Boundman why she would have done it in the first place?

Like she may be far from be the smartest person but i doubt she its the type to put effort when not necessary, she does have Observation Haki and she know when someone its actually a genuine threat or not (like how she warned Kaido to avoid Zoro's Emna attack), so there are to be a reason why she choose to use Armament Haki where she could have just use her natural durability/strength.

Since in Wano it stablishes that Big Mom uses whateaver haki she wants even when she does like against Page One using ACoC and simply not using against Kid & Law with the only maybe excuse being "she underestimated them" so her using Haki does mean much and less so when you consider that base Kaido (to whom she is equal to) One Shot an even stronger version of Luffy thar was even more motivated than that single clash.


The Queen thing only works for Queen (not his hybrid form nor the Germa abilities tho ) and those below him. I simply can't see any scaling between him and any of the offenders outside of maybe Sanji but I believe he has feats some feats on King and Marco hypes him up the same as Zoro.
Like again, no Country Level character can do what any of the listed commanders did when faced against the Moon/Small Planet Level characters. That is one of the problems caused by axing all feats leaving only the mid (early time skip) and top(Yonko &admirals) tiers feats calcable, the high(commanders and such) tiers get shafted. They are either too far above the Mid tier or too far below the Top. That is why I believe the best looking scaling we had was from when Shiki's feat was used and the Top tiers were multiCon and the high tiers were continental and the mid tiers lower on the tier 6.
 
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