An Attempt to bring back a Verse (Terrible Mouse)

[Phsccarvalho]

No. Why would I care if it were kids being murdered by a crazy person more than I would teenagers or any other innocent person? A psychopath could throw a baby in a blender and I would not care. It's a videogame

Well, but that's the focus of the discussion; the rules are being changed to no longer include works that focus on violence against children or things of that nature, it seems.

I'm just trying to figure out what the limits are, and examples of other works besides Terrible Mouse.

 

[azontr]

So, if my understanding is correct, is extreme violence against children the disqualifying standard here? The message from the FANDOM person explicitly states that it only applies to children if it can be considered "shock content" or "torture p*rn," but like, that's arbitrary.

 

[LaserPrecision]

Well, but that's the focus of the discussion; the rules are being changed to no longer include works that focus on violence against children or things of that nature, it seems.

I'm just trying to figure out what the limits are, and examples of other works besides Terrible Mouse.

Seems like an arbitrary standard unless the wiki is trying to enforce some lives matter more than others between two innocent people, and that would be quite alarming. Anyways, I really mostly commented because I feel like these standards are absurd, and so are some of the claims being made about the series here. If higher ups that run the wikis or whatever say it's not allowed that is fine, but I don't think the reasons given for some of the ones here are good at all.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

That's literally just blood spraying everywhere while her intact body ragdolls around.

There's ******* student films with zero budget that have more extreme gore.

If this is unacceptably extreme gore, then 65% of anime/manga that take place in a high school will have to be deleted.

I second Agnaa, most of the above possible standards nuke a vast majority of verses on the site.

I don't especially care whether we delete YanSim or not, but I do think this is being reductive, or dramatic.

YanSim falls pretty explicitly against a few of the points detailed by Sannse, a representative of Fandom. I would actually like to have more clarification-- I felt they highlighted the more sadistic violence against children in their reply, but with so many people unsure, my judgment may have been presumptuous-- but to pretend it's nothing more than a blood splatter is silly. It's a high schooler's writhing corpse as they are killed grotesquely. I'm absolutely fine with pushing for more explicit guidelines from Fandom, but I think this isn't a critical judgment of the scene, nor the other facets mentioned before.

And Tllmbrg's stance is just ridiculous. "This will end up in the vast majority of verses being deleted!" is an extreme overreaction. Given the exceptions outlined by Sannse, I'd be shocked if we found even a dozen verses on the wrong side of these policies.

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

Btw about yandere sim isn't it one of those games that have a disclaimer that all characters are 18+ or the creator has stated so. That's what I can find searching it up.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

If this is how y'all interpret the standards, they will result in the deletion of a lot of YA/shounen stuff, as well as a lot of edgy stuff outside of that. Assuming you do take Sannse's answer that "detailed torture and murder of children crosses it", and take that to mean "any instance of anything moderately gory against someone under the age of 18 results in deletion".

Either that, or (perhaps even worse), they will only be applied when there isn't a knowledgeable staff member around to say "hey there's actually more to it and there's artistic merit", while verses that are just as extreme, but lack staff favour, get deleted. Or perhaps, slightly inverted; they'd only get deleted if a certain staff member is steadfastly convinced that they're demented.

10000% agreed.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

Btw about yandere sim isn't it one of those games that have a disclaimer that all characters are 18+ or the creator has stated so. That's what I can find searching it up.

Well, technically yes, but it seems like that's just for appearances. I found this on Reddit.

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

Well, technically yes, but it seems like that's just for appearances. I found this on Reddit.

ic. I think Persona would actually be something that'd be banned since it depicts Ann who's underage being sex slave to a predator teacher.

 

[Agnaa]

I don't especially care whether we delete YanSim or not, but I do think this is being reductive, or dramatic.

YanSim falls pretty explicitly against a few of the points detailed by Sannse, a representative of Fandom. I would actually like to have more clarification-- I felt they highlighted the more sadistic violence against children in their reply, but with so many people unsure, my judgment may have been presumptuous-- but to pretend it's nothing more than a blood splatter is silly. It's a high schooler's writhing corpse as they are killed grotesquely. I'm absolutely fine with pushing for more explicit guidelines from Fandom, but I think this isn't a critical judgment of the scene, nor the other facets mentioned before.

I did also mention the intact body ragdolling around.

I think it's important how little actually went into the gore there. There's no detailing of severed limbs, organs going anywhere. It is less gory than many early 2000s games.

And Tllmbrg's stance is just ridiculous. "This will end up in the vast majority of verses being deleted!" is an extreme overreaction. Given the exceptions outlined by Sannse, I'd be shocked if we found even a dozen verses on the wrong side of these policies.

The Walking Dead, South Park, JoJo's Bizarre Adventure, and Parahumans are some easy examples of massive verses that would be deleted by these policies.

There's no point in me listing off a dozen anime you've never heard of that would also get deleted.

At least, as far as I understand. If I'm wrong about the standards you're aiming for, outline and discuss them better. Respond to the posts where I've tried to seek clarification on this sort of thing.

 

[azontr]

I think before any more discussion continues that clarification from the fandom person should be asked on what exactly they mean when they outlined their standards. Right now, everybody is kind of just going back and forth with personal interpretations about what may or may not be objectionable under the listed guidelines, which I think is unproductive.

 

[Random-Helper323]

Okay, I think a few provisions are needed. First option is to not focus on gore and only remove what's essentially dirty stuff. Second option would be a list of requirements for a verse to be removed for violence.

1. Targets are children.

2. Intent seems to be savagery and sadism as basically the whole purpose of the work, in a way that almost or even literally endorses that behaviour.

3. Gore or genuinely disturbing content is serious enough to get the work a rating that would restrict it to adults just for that alone.

I doubt many verses would satisfy all three.

 

[Agnaa]

2. Intent seems to be savagery and sadism as basically the whole purpose of the work, in a way that almost or even literally endorses that behaviour.

Famous sadism promoter Markiplier and the 20 million people watching his lets play.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I did also mention the intact body ragdolling around.

I think it's important how little actually went into the gore there. There's no detailing of severed limbs, organs going anywhere. It is less gory than many early 2000s games.

The Walking Dead, South Park, JoJo's Bizarre Adventure, and Parahumans are some easy examples of massive verses that would be deleted by these policies.

There's no point in me listing off a dozen anime you've never heard of that would also get deleted.

At least, as far as I understand. If I'm wrong about the standards you're aiming for, outline and discuss them better. Respond to the posts where I've tried to seek clarification on this sort of thing.

We're talking in Discord about what I believe is the situation here, but I want to point out, at least, that:
1. The Walking Dead absolutely is not on par with Terrible Mouse and YanSim. Just having a child die (even violently!) is explicitly not the criteria we're talking about. I don't really think South Park would qualify either, between the joke being that the character never actually dies anyways, and it being presented in such a non-serious manner. I think it's worth bringing up, because making that distinction is important and it's a good verse to do so with.
2. I don't like this being framed as the standards I'm "aiming for". These are the standards that are being foisted upon us.

 

[Antvasima]

Fandom is often not monitoring the content its wikis to any significant degree, but I do not think that we should promote absolutely amoral content wherein the sole purpose is to actually endorse systematic torture and murder of innocent people for kicks and giggles, which is just as morally reprehensible as content wherein the only purpose is to endorse graphic ra pe.

For example, South Park definitely has higher ethical purposes with most of its content, so it should just be a level 3 at worst.

As such, I still think that it would be best if Bambu and/or FinePoint slightly tweak my suggested wordings above to work with their expressed concerns here.

 

[Antvasima]

Also, I agree with Bambu about that we will likely find very few verses currently in our wiki that are bad enough to qualify for deletion.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Would you be able to ask Sannse for clarification on what standards, specifically, we should be looking for? I didn't think they were terribly vague, but a lot of others have said they do feel they are, so I would greatly like Sannse to offer insight.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. What should I ask her, more specifically?

 

[LaserPrecision]

What series mentioned here endorses torture and murder? You are making horrible accusations about people on account of their art.

 

[Antvasima]

I wouldn't say that content wherein the only point is extremely sadistic torture or violation of innocent people qualifies as art, and yes, if it is presented in terms of encouraging viewers to take extreme pleasure in such things, it is endorsement per definition.

 

[LaserPrecision]

Have you watched the series? Because I'm afraid if you haven't you don't have much grounds to stand on to make accusations about someone's art. I'd also like to say even abhorrent art is art. The person behind it having bad intentions doesn't detract from that.

As someone who actually knows the series, I can say I've never gotten the idea the creator endorses violence. In fact it's quite obvious the ones inflicting the torture are depicted as bad people (Not that I think art has a moral obligation to showcase/explain that. That's a naive mindset to have).

 

[Antvasima]

Which series are you talking about? I was speaking in general terms.

Also, I consider it naive to not think that a tsunami of absolutely malevolent darkness within culture has no negative effects on humanity as a whole.

 

[LaserPrecision]

Terrible Mouse specifically. Though from past messages of yours I've seen I do think your general perception of art is flawed. There are cases where I think art is harmful, but a lot of examples mentioned here aren't one of them.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, again, I think that I have a rather indepth analytical perspective regarding how all types of media affect humanity, and extensively went into that in my wiki user page and old story.

However, I am open for explanations regarding why specific verses may not quality for level 4.

 

[Agnaa]

Okay. What should I ask her, more specifically?

Really I think the issue here comes from the vagueness of the reply

There's a lot of different standards gestured at here:

1. Gore and violence also being sexual.
2. Very gory and violent, with a children's character as the victim.
3. Detailed torture and murder of children.
4. Torture **** or shock content.
5. Gets explicit with violence against children.

These standards very significantly, from ones that would delete zero relevant verses, including Terrible Mouse, to ones that would delete 70% of the wiki.

Fandom is often not monitoring the content its wikis to any significant degree

Then report it. If Fandom evaluate the report, and determine that it's acceptable for their platform, that significantly changes the way we should be thinking about these rules.

 

[FinePoint]

It's not really gory. The worst stuff is something like this. You can look around to see if you can find something worse.

You can also win Yandere Simulator by just befriending the target. The **** do you mean "encourages you to bully school children"!?!?!?!? That's just an option that they programmed in!!!

I feel like I was pretty upfront both here and in the Discord that I didn't actually have a great memory of the details of the game, which is why I was explicitly asking others about it, so I find your attitude a little dramatic. I'd also like to point out that like Bambu I am merely trying to come up with a policy that abides by Fandom's guidelines, and that my personal preferences would be a lot more lax.

I looked at the Wiki to get some information, and though I did see there was a 'befriend' category, I also noticed that there was twenty other categories that were evil.

Let me put it this way: in GTA, it is technically an option to just mindlessly kill random civilians, but compared to the bulk of the rest of the content that optional inclusion is very minor. I would view this the opposite way. The more I look into it, it seems like the bulk of the content is indeed about murdering and torturing children, and there happens to be a minor optional inclusion of being their friend.

Anyway, I can certainly continue to tweak the wording on the proposed new rule, but it seems like much of the consensus here is that we need more clarification from Fandom. Perhaps asking them about this example would help, we can bring up the wiki and the content of the game, and see if it is indeed a nuance of the policy we're missing or if they simply never looked into it.

As I currently read it, it sounds like though we care very deeply about artistic merit, Fandom seemingly cares more about if it's considered shock content.

 

[Antvasima]

So, again, what clarifications should I ask Sannse about exactly, and is Bambu or FinePoint willing to slightly tweak my suggested draft texts above, so I can show them to her as examples, to see if they properly represent her intentions?

 

[FinePoint]

So, again, what clarifications should I ask Sannse about exactly, and is Bambu or FinePoint willing to slightly tweak my suggested draft texts above, so I can show them to her as examples, to see if they properly represent her intentions?

Well we really only had problems with the word gore I think, since we didn't want to give the impression that something like SAW wasn't allowed. I think we should keep the wording less specific, since we later clarify with examples.

Keeping in line with looking at the intention/focus, maybe changing the first line to something like:

Level 4: Extreme - Verses that place a central focus on either high sexual content or shock content.

I think that wording works because if you look it up, Wikipedia defines shock sites (and the content therein) as "a website that is intended to be offensive or disturbing to its viewers... or which contain hate speech and dehumanization..."

This is the exact term Sannse used, and would also cover verses which we don't allow for things like excessive use of slurs and hate speech.

If you want to really hammer in the intention part, and avoid the argument that some media needs to be disturbing for its message, then maybe you could add the word sadistic, like:

Level 4: Extreme - Verses that place a central focus on either high sexual content or sadistic shock content.

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

Hello. As someone who played and followed Yandere Simulator's development. (although not a supporter of indexing it in this wiki)
The 1980s mode of the Game established a proper canon story for the Parent of The Main Character, which is unlike The Main character, where we have more creative freedom to just befriend people. The Parent otherwise has a different backstory that is basically confirmed

In the Canon of the story. Aishi Ryoba is a killer. confirmed by the Tapes. Even resulting in a trial, which she basically got cleared of
Kidnaps her senpai and forces him to live with her until they become a family. (All this happened while she was a student). And there are a lot of lore hints that something similar will happen to Senpai in the conclusion of the Main game if the game actually finishes development

Do note that the 1980s mode elimination method follows the same mechanics for the main game, which include needing to dispose of the body with a lot of horrendous methods. There is a befriend mode, but there are things that you have no option but to do so otherwise, such as the death of Sumire Saitozaki, which happened before the game started

Although my general opinion is that
1980s mode is an optional content, but it is still part of the backstory of the Main Game. Although you can basically do the Suitor or the befriend method for all the Rivals. The ending is pretty much set in stone.

Not to mention, there is like a really unnecessary side content where if you fail and reach a game over, you can "SNAP". I'm not sure why this is necessary, but likely the developer wanted to portray the character as similar to how Anime Yandere are.

With all that said. I still don't believe it intends to promote such things or violence. As the Developer himself posted a video explaining that it is at players decision whether the game will become dark or remain a cutesy dating sim-like game. Much like most simulator games, the player simply has freedom how they want the simulation to go

So I believe it should still remain in the wiki. And doesn't really promote nor endorses such action the same way GTA doesn't endorse shooting people randomly.

Although I cannot defend the fixed ending. So I guess that one requires a decision

 

[FinePoint]

With all that said. I still don't believe it intends to promote such things or violence. As the Developer himself posted a video explaining that it is at players decision whether the game will become dark or remain a cutesy dating sim-like game. Much like most simulator games, the player simply has freedom how they want the simulation to go

Thank you for the detailed and nuanced explanation.

I will say that the developer also admitted to only making their ages canonically 18 to avoid backlash, which makes me question if this take from them is again just to avoid the assertion that their game is primarily sadistic.

I also think to some extent we need to analyze what's actually mostly featured and encouraged in the game, and as you pointed out some of the evil is unavoidable, and in many games you could make this same argument by choosing to do nothing.

I suppose I would ask: if you refused to do anything evil, would the game actually be a cutesy dating sim, or would it become a mostly empty walking simulator without any ending or progression?

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

I suppose I would ask: if you refused to do anything evil, would the game actually be a cutesy dating sim, or would it become a mostly empty walking simulator without any ending or progression?

There is a whole lot of sidequests when doing the befriend route, and it changes depending on the Rival. Some characters have their own stories, etc. (In 1980s mode, it is basically the same for all 10 rivals since 1980s mode is meant to be like a blueprint of how the whole 10 weeks of the game works, and see how people react to it)

The ending of the main game is still not developed or shown, but
I believe the main game could potentially follow a different ending where it genuinely ends without kidnapping, as there are scenes where the Main Character actually confesses to Senpai.

So although the lore hints into a grim outcome based on 1980s mode and Tapes. The fact that a scene of confession exist implies it does not have to go that way

I will say that the developer also admitted to only making their ages canonically 18 to avoid backlash, which makes me question if this take from them is again just to avoid the assertion that their game is primarily sadistic.

The developer is somewhat special, and there is a whole lot of drama behind him. He's probably just taking the easy route to avoid any extra drama from it.

I don't think it is primarily meant to be sadistic. following its development. The base mechanics are somewhat generic and simple. He started changing how the objectives and mechanisms work by making the characters feel organic and somewhat realistic by basically taking inspiration from other games, such as Hitman, etc.

 

[Antvasima]

Well we really only had problems with the word gore I think, since we didn't want to give the impression that something like SAW wasn't allowed. I think we should keep the wording less specific, since we later clarify with examples.

Keeping in line with looking at the intention/focus, maybe changing the first line to something like:

Level 4: Extreme - Verses that place a central focus on either high sexual content or shock content.

I think that wording works because if you look it up, Wikipedia defines shock sites (and the content therein) as "a website that is intended to be offensive or disturbing to its viewers... or which contain hate speech and dehumanization..."

This is the exact term Sannse used, and would also cover verses which we don't allow for things like excessive use of slurs and hate speech.

If you want to really hammer in the intention part, and avoid the argument that some media needs to be disturbing for its message, then maybe you could add the word sadistic, like:

Level 4: Extreme - Verses that place a central focus on either high sexual content or sadistic shock content.

Thank you. So would this work as a draft suggestion to send Sannse then? Also, what else, if anything, should I ask her? And we also likely need to slightly tweak our current wording for level 3.

Level 4: Extreme - Verses that place a central focus on either high sexual content or sadistic shock content. Such verses are pornographic and/or gleefully malevolent in nature and as such strictly unsuitable for this wiki. A verse that falls under this rating would either have the majority of its content be sexual or excessively shocking for the sake of itself, such as by endorsing the detailed murder or torture of children.

Examples: Many hentai series, Terrible Mouse

 

[Phsccarvalho]

Sannse then

Speaking of which, has he already answered the second question we asked him about Terrible Mouse? Besides the issue of the series having a wiki on Fandom.

Because since we're basing this on Fandom, we need to know if the series' wiki is actually valid and therefore hasn't been deleted, or if the Fandom is unaware of its existence/is ignoring it for some reason.

Since Agnaa also mentioned this:

Then report it. If Fandom evaluate the report, and determine that it's acceptable for their platform, that significantly changes the way we should be thinking about these rules.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Thank you. So would this work as a draft suggestion to send Sannse then? Also, what else, if anything, should I ask her? And we also likely need to slightly tweak our current wording for level 3.

Level 4: Extreme - Verses that place a central focus on either high sexual content or sadistic shock content. Such verses are pornographic and/or gleefully malevolent in nature and as such strictly unsuitable for this wiki. A verse that falls under this rating would either have the majority of its content be sexual or excessively shocking for the sake of itself, such as by endorsing the detailed murder or torture of children.

Examples: Many hentai series, Terrible Mouse

I think presenting specific examples that have been brought up in this thread would do a lot to probe what we want to look out for.

We have confirmation that Terrible Mouse is viewed as too far, so that one is unnecessary. But asking about Terrifier, Yandere Simulator, Hatred, and South Park seem like the most immediately relevant verses. All of these have a Fandom wiki, but all of them have some level of questionability of being permitted based on Sannse's first response.

 

[Jinx666]

I dont think we should be banning verses for their level of violence or concept necessarily (as long as its just straight up not ****, and theres at least some form of plot), but i'm also not gonna start defending Yandere Simulator (made by a predator btw and hasn't even officially released after over a decade).

We shouldnt get rid of South Park though lbr

 

[Antvasima]

I think presenting specific examples that have been brought up in this thread would do a lot to probe what we want to look out for.

We have confirmation that Terrible Mouse is viewed as too far, so that one is unnecessary. But asking about Terrifier, Yandere Simulator, Hatred, and South Park seem like the most immediately relevant verses. All of these have a Fandom wiki, but all of them have some level of questionability of being permitted based on Sannse's first response.

South Park has coherent intelligent satirical stories, and definitely does not endorse horrible behaviour, so that one seems unnecessary to ask about, but we likely need to write a draft text for what exactly that we should ask Sannse.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I dont think we should be banning verses for their level of violence or concept necessarily (as long as its just straight up not ****, and theres at least some form of plot), but i'm also not gonna start defending Yandere Simulator (made by a predator btw and hasn't even officially released after over a decade).

We shouldnt get rid of South Park though lbr

Listen, man. We're working under the Fandom Sword of Damocles again. We're just trying to figure out what it is we're meant to do.

South Park has coherent intelligent satirical stories, and definitely does not endorse horrible behaviour, so that one seems unnecessary to ask about, but we likely need to write a draft text for what exactly that we should ask Sannse.

I don't want to delete South Park! But Agnaa's point is right that strictly speaking, it portrays some pretty grisly deaths of a child (even if he never really dies from it), pretty much exclusively for the purpose of shock.

 

[KLOL506]

I did also mention the intact body ragdolling around.

I think it's important how little actually went into the gore there. There's no detailing of severed limbs, organs going anywhere. It is less gory than many early 2000s games.

The Walking Dead, South Park, JoJo's Bizarre Adventure, and Parahumans are some easy examples of massive verses that would be deleted by these policies.

There's no point in me listing off a dozen anime you've never heard of that would also get deleted.

At least, as far as I understand. If I'm wrong about the standards you're aiming for, outline and discuss them better. Respond to the posts where I've tried to seek clarification on this sort of thing.

Are we deadass FR debating deleting JJBA, Walking Dead and South Park of all things? Please tell me this is satire.

 

[VladimirMakarov317]

Listen, man. We're working under the Fandom Sword of Damocles again. We're just trying to figure out what it is we're meant to do.


I don't want to delete South Park! But Agnaa's point is right that strictly speaking, it portrays some pretty grisly deaths of a child (even if he never really dies from it), pretty much exclusively for the purpose of shock.

Poor Kenny but tbf SP has bunch of other kids being killed on screen

 

[AppleMaker]

Me after mentioning Yandere simulator and coming back:

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

I'm currently 1 hour into binging Terrible Mouse.
And I can clearly see what's possible precedent it could mean to consider this as Level 4.
So I can understand Agnaa's concern regarding this conundrum with the Fandom's response

I do believe this should be handled in a separate Staff Thread. As much as I want regular users' input, as they are the ones who have practically experienced some of this content. These changes can heavily impact the Site itself

going by what I've seen so far for Terrible Mouse. It is honestly more like a horror combination of Promised Neverland, Made in Abyss, and Corpse Party.(All currently have a profile in the wiki atm) Just with a much cruder art
The series itself really keeps hammering with a warning that the story is a tragic horror and acknowledges that it can be too much.