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The thread does not absolutely need to satisfy this request. You are free to be skeptical of translations provided by our translation helpers, you are free to base said skepticism on their time spent on the forum, but this skepticism is not considered a "debunk" or what have you of the thread. Raiki's translations are, at this time, backed by the forum, and are considered legitimate.
The thread does not absolutely need to satisfy this request. You are free to be skeptical of translations provided by our translation helpers, you are free to base said skepticism on their time spent on the forum, but this skepticism is not considered a "debunk" or what have you of the thread. Raiki's translations are, at this time, backed by the forum, and are considered legitimate.
However, this should at least be verified by another experienced translator here, or at least any competent translator, to confirm the matter. Especially since he hasn’t translated anything himself while claiming the translation is incorrect—so where is his correct translation, then?
However, this should at least be verified by another experienced translator here, or at least any competent translator, to confirm the matter. Especially since he hasn’t translated anything himself while claiming the translation is incorrect—so where is his correct translation, then?
Idk if this counts as usage of one of my permissions but permision from @Just a Random Butler
Okay this is just baseless slander, I was planning not to reply at all in this thread but you are aware that Raiki has translated this himself and has constantly translated for three months ?
He is the one that has been continuously translating. Sure you might have doubts and Skepticism and you may request another Translator but you can't slander Raiki or deem his translations baseless without any evidence. He was thoroughly tested by other Translation members of the wiki before getting his staff role and invalidating that because you simply don't agree with his translations is very inappropriate and disingenuous.
Idk if this counts as usage of one of my permissions but permision from @Just a Random Butler
Okay this is just baseless slander, I was planning not to reply at all in this thread but you are aware that Raiki has translated this himself and has constantly translated for three months ?
He is the one that has been continuously translating. Sure you might have doubts and Skepticism and you may request another Translator but you can't slander Raiki or deem his translations baseless without any evidence. He was thoroughly tested by other Translation members of the wiki before getting his staff role and invalidating that because you simply don't agree with his translations is very inappropriate and disingenuous.
Let me correct one thing: I am not trying to defame his reputation or anything like that—when did I ever do that? I only said that I do not trust his translations and that I would like at least another translator here to verify his statements, especially since he is relatively new in this field.
Also, after checking the link, it seems that at the beginning, @Antvasima and some translation helpers, as well as even some experienced staff members, did not initially agree to make him a translation helper due to his use of machine translations and some mistakes he made. This makes it harder for me to fully trust his translations.
I understand that he was later approved, but even now I still cannot fully rely on his translations. This is not an insult toward him or anything of that nature.
However, this should at least be verified by another experienced translator here, or at least any competent translator, to confirm the matter. Especially since he hasn’t translated anything himself while claiming the translation is incorrect—so where is his correct translation, then?
限定的な時空間においての事象の改変は、神ならできて当たり前の技能だ。その次元での闘いができないのなら、神と闘う資格はない。 Raws of Vol 7 Chap 23
The attack that forcibly rewrites a determined (fixed) phenomenon, the hedgehog Hedgehog dealt with it by further manipulating his past self. The alteration of phenomena within a limited spacetime is a skill that, if one is a god, can naturally be done. If one cannot fight at that dimension, there is no qualification to fight a god.
It would be more appropriate for both parties to provide a clear and concise summary of their arguments in a single post, so that the staff can review and evaluate them in an organized and objective manner.
I propose that both sides agree on a single summary, and that one representative from each side publish it.
Note: Do not respond to each other’s summaries unless there is a clear reason to do so.
So far, I still suspect there is some kind of manipulation here. Why take a fragment of a Japanese text from one context and another fragment from a different context, then combine them into a single context just to translate it? You know that a translation’s meaning can change depending on the context that comes before or after it. You should have asked them to provide the preceding context to verify the translation—and the following context as well. At the very least, a full context, not just two fragmented lines taken from a larger passage. Of course, the meaning will become completely different and shift significantly if it isn’t supported and clarified by the surrounding context.
I’m waiting for you to retranslate the full context and present it here in front of everyone—then we’ll see.
Provide the full Japanese context here, translate it, and present your translation.
So far, I still suspect there is some kind of manipulation here. Why take a fragment of a Japanese text from one context and another fragment from a different context, then combine them into a single context just to translate it? You know that a translation’s meaning can change depending on the context that comes before or after it. You should have asked them to provide the preceding context to verify the translation—and the following context as well. At the very least, a full context, not just two fragmented lines taken from a larger passage. Of course, the meaning will become completely different and shift significantly if it isn’t supported and clarified by the surrounding context.
I’m waiting for you to retranslate the full context and present it here in front of everyone—then we’ll see.
Provide the full Japanese context here, translate it, and present your translation.
There is no manipulation in the translation.
It is possible that the intention is to focus on the essential or most important parts of the text, rather than translating every detail that may not affect the main meaning.
It is true that context plays an important role in translation, but this does not mean it is always a necessary condition in every case. Some sentences are self contained and clear in their meaning, and can be understood and translated correctly without needing to refer to what comes before or after them.
In this specific case, the sentence was clear and direct in meaning, and therefore did not require additional context to be properly understood or accurately translated.
Here is the translation of the full text: It took two hours
However, it was not that it was particular about killing anything other than the target, which was God.
If it understood that the one to be killed was unrelated,it would sometimes set the next target and leave.
The criteria for that judgment were not well understood. Even it itself did not understand them.
Inside it, multiple computational devices were built in, but those were merely things that had been shoved in at random,and they were not coordinated.
The one who sent it likely did not have any significant plan.
It would be fine if someday, somewhere, it even so much as grazed the target.
That was the level of thinking.
Ah, damn it! Our Pochi has been split clean in two! What are you gonna do about this?!
A forest located near the capital of the ruined Manny Kingdom.
There, an invader called Hedgehog and a woman possessing divinity were confronting each other.
The Hedgehog, whose entire black body was equipped with blades, was an embodiment of slaughter and had cut down various beings in this world.
The giant wolf the woman was riding called in this world the Starving Wolf King also became a victim of the Hedgehog.
No way, absolutely no way. Ignoring me and cutting down Pochi what the hell is that?!
The Hedgehog was, in localized terms, functioning normally.
Ignoring the god who was protecting herself flawlessly, it attacked the wolf.
Half baked attacks do not work against a god, but if the mind wavers, cracks can appear.
So, the Hedgehog expected that an opening might occur, but although she seemed surprised, the woman’s barrier remained perfect.
The Hedgehog had not thought about what would happen afterward.
It had not considered whether that was necessary to achieve its final objective it was merely repeating improvised actions.
The Hedgehog was broken.
It could be called an initial defect. Thrown into this world without proper adjustment, multiple computational units were making judgments independently, and it had not reached possessing a large scale perspective.
Die!
The Hedgehog’s right arm was twisted off and blown away.
You’re dodging that now?!
The woman, who at first seemed angry, upon seeing that, barked as if enjoying it. An attack toward the past. That attack, which forcibly rewrites an already determined event, was dealt with by the Hedgehog by manipulating its own self further in the past. The alteration of events within a limited spacetime is, for a god, an ability that comes naturally. If one cannot fight on that level, one has no qualification to fight a god.
The Hedgehog, created to defeat gods, naturally possessed functions to counter that.
As expected of a god slaying machine! But the difference in power is obvious! What are you gonna show me from here?!
This place is not a world ruled by that woman, and that power is not her original one.
Yet even so, the difference in ability between her and the Hedgehog was clear.
Then what will it do?
The Hedgehog has no thoughts.It merely does what it can at the present moment.It deploys the blades all over its body, leans forward, and accumulates power.
Heh? A reckless, desperate charge, huh? Nice. That kind of thing ain’t bad either!
The woman claps both palms together in front of her chest.
so yes
hax Note:I have modified the relevant part and changed some things in it (the meaning is the same, so it does not matter).
There is no manipulation in the translation.
It is possible that the intention is to focus on the essential or most important parts of the text, rather than translating every detail that may not affect the main meaning.
It is true that context plays an important role in translation, but this does not mean it is always a necessary condition in every case. Some sentences are self contained and clear in their meaning, and can be understood and translated correctly without needing to refer to what comes before or after them.
In this specific case, the sentence was clear and direct in meaning, and therefore did not require additional context to be properly understood or accurately translated.
Here is the translation of the full text: It took two hours
However, it was not that it was particular about killing anything other than the target, which was God.
If it understood that the one to be killed was unrelated,it would sometimes set the next target and leave.
The criteria for that judgment were not well understood. Even it itself did not understand them.
Inside it, multiple computational devices were built in, but those were merely things that had been shoved in at random,and they were not coordinated.
The one who sent it likely did not have any significant plan.
It would be fine if someday, somewhere, it even so much as grazed the target.
That was the level of thinking.
Ah, damn it! Our Pochi has been split clean in two! What are you gonna do about this?!
A forest located near the capital of the ruined Manny Kingdom.
There, an invader called Hedgehog and a woman possessing divinity were confronting each other.
The Hedgehog, whose entire black body was equipped with blades, was an embodiment of slaughter and had cut down various beings in this world.
The giant wolf the woman was riding called in this world the Starving Wolf King also became a victim of the Hedgehog.
No way, absolutely no way. Ignoring me and cutting down Pochi what the hell is that?!
The Hedgehog was, in localized terms, functioning normally.
Ignoring the god who was protecting herself flawlessly, it attacked the wolf.
Half baked attacks do not work against a god, but if the mind wavers, cracks can appear.
So, the Hedgehog expected that an opening might occur, but although she seemed surprised, the woman’s barrier remained perfect.
The Hedgehog had not thought about what would happen afterward.
It had not considered whether that was necessary to achieve its final objective it was merely repeating improvised actions.
The Hedgehog was broken.
It could be called an initial defect. Thrown into this world without proper adjustment, multiple computational units were making judgments independently, and it had not reached possessing a large scale perspective.
Die!
The Hedgehog’s right arm was twisted off and blown away.
You’re dodging that now?!
The woman, who at first seemed angry, upon seeing that, barked as if enjoying it. An attack toward the past. That attack, which forcibly rewrites an already determined event, was dealt with by the Hedgehog by manipulating its own self further in the past. The alteration of events within a limited spacetime is, for a god, an ability that comes naturally. If one cannot fight on that level, one has no qualification to fight a god.
The Hedgehog, created to defeat gods, naturally possessed functions to counter that.
As expected of a god slaying machine! But the difference in power is obvious! What are you gonna show me from here?!
This place is not a world ruled by that woman, and that power is not her original one.
Yet even so, the difference in ability between her and the Hedgehog was clear.
Then what will it do?
The Hedgehog has no thoughts.It merely does what it can at the present moment.It deploys the blades all over its body, leans forward, and accumulates power.
Heh? A reckless, desperate charge, huh? Nice. That kind of thing ain’t bad either!
The woman claps both palms together in front of her chest.
so yes
hax Note:I have modified the relevant part and changed some things in it (the meaning is the same, so it does not matter).
It would be more appropriate for both parties to provide a clear and concise summary of their arguments in a single post, so that the staff can review and evaluate them in an organized and objective manner.
I propose that both sides agree on a single summary, and that one representative from each side publish it.
Note: Do not respond to each other’s summaries unless there is a clear reason to do so.
Alright. I will summarize the OP since the args so far are just back & forth imo. The Hedgehog & Gods
The original rating was based on a slightl mistranslation scan (OTL).
Checking the raws makes it clear that it's an ability (Causality Manipulation/Past Manipulation) rather than intrinsic speed.
Thus anyone scaling to the Hedgehog will get their speed rating removed, the Hedgehog will instead get Causality Manipulation and have its speed removed, and they would be scale to the best speed calculation the verse has.
History Regeneration
The original rating is based on a single attack from Mizuki called "Erasure Bolt" which erases (or is supposed to) one from history.
This attack has only been shown to be used once in the series, and even in that instance, it failed.
To assume Gods can regenerate from this, we'd have to assume Mizuki uses this attack every time (he hasn't shown to do this, even in other canon fights that did take place), and we have to assume Existence Erasure in general is rare in-verse (it's not, at all). Both of these assumptions would be inconsistent with the verse.
Not only does UEG herself (who talked about the state of death thing) confirming that killing her concept is the correct way to truly get rid of her as a God, you're also trying to get some NEP out of this when UEG, who would have visited the Sea of Darkness that is "another state of existence" for Gods (death), refused to believe the concept of Non-existence.
Other than the section on History erasure removal already addressing this, there's also the fact that said "history erasure" works even on Mizuki himself. Mizuki is of course a God, so if Gods really can come back from history erasure, there's no reason for them to be effected by it to begin with, they shouldn't forget beings that were effected by the History erasure themselves. So it's all just... Suspicious.
The link just leads to mizuki's history EE, which was already addressed, but since we know what the opposition is referring to, it would be addressed in advance;
"Conceptual Attacks" aren't "destroying your concept" but rather adding the concept of doing something (like ignoring durability) to your attacks. It's just unrelated to "killing concepts" so the argument falls apart.
"Complete erasure" — there is no proof that Gods can regenerate from this. In fact, it's even said that the Sea of Darkness that Gods return to after temporart death is "positively lenient" compared to complete/true erasure, so there's absolutely zero reason to believe Gods can come back from this.
Causality erasure — Once again has no proof of a god actually surviving this just because it exists in the Sea. In fact, it likely refers to something similar to this feat. And that is literally just "you attack your enemy's past self and the other person evades it by manipulating their own past self (more causality manip).
So far, with all of this, I see nothing that disproves the Hedgehog possessing immeasurable speed.
First, definitions of speed types:
Attack Speed
The speed at which an attack itself moves. For example, if a character is Hypersonic but launches a natural beam of light, the attack speed differs from the user’s speed; therefore, the attack would be light speed even if the user is not.
Reaction Speed
The speed at which a character can respond to an event or action. This usually allows only a short movement after perception, while multiple consecutive movements at the same speed are classified as combat speed.
Perception Speed
The time it takes for a character to notice an event or react to it. Crucially, it does not grant any physical movement; at most, it allows activation of thought-based abilities.
First, it is explicitly stated that what the Hedgehog does is dodging attacks, meaning it evades.
Second, the attack performed by the goddess toward the past itself falls under attack speed, and it is an immeasurable speed attack, since it targets the past of the character. Therefore, the attack speed here would be immeasurable.
Reaction speed would also be immeasurable for the Hedgehog, because it managed to evade an attack that directly targeted the past by manipulating its own past version, avoiding that attack. As stated in the text, the Hedgehog is constantly evading, and even the goddess is surprised by its ability to do so. In this case, the attack directed at the past was evaded through self-manipulation of its past state, allowing it to survive. This qualifies as immeasurable reaction speed.
Perception speed is also immeasurable for the Hedgehog, because it perceived an attack directed at the past in the first place. Such an attack should not normally be perceivable at all, since it is not occurring in the present. Nevertheless, it was able to perceive and respond to it by manipulating its past self and evading it, which also makes its perception speed immeasurable.
Alright. I will summarize the OP since the args so far are just back & forth imo. The Hedgehog & Gods
The original rating was based on a slightl mistranslation scan (OTL).
Checking the raws makes it clear that it's an ability (Causality Manipulation/Past Manipulation) rather than intrinsic speed.
Thus anyone scaling to the Hedgehog will get their speed rating removed, the Hedgehog will instead get Causality Manipulation and have its speed removed, and they would be scale to the best speed calculation the verse has.
History Regeneration
The original rating is based on a single attack from Mizuki called "Erasure Bolt" which erases (or is supposed to) one from history.
This attack has only been shown to be used once in the series, and even in that instance, it failed.
To assume Gods can regenerate from this, we'd have to assume Mizuki uses this attack every time (he hasn't shown to do this, even in other canon fights that did take place), and we have to assume Existence Erasure in general is rare in-verse (it's not, at all). Both of these assumptions would be inconsistent with the verse.
Not only does UEG herself (who talked about the state of death thing) confirming that killing her concept is the correct way to truly get rid of her as a God, you're also trying to get some NEP out of this when UEG, who would have visited the Sea of Darkness that is "another state of existence" for Gods (death), refused to believe the concept of Non-existence.
Other than the section on History erasure removal already addressing this, there's also the fact that said "history erasure" works even on Mizuki himself. Mizuki is of course a God, so if Gods really can come back from history erasure, there's no reason for them to be effected by it to begin with, they shouldn't forget beings that were effected by the History erasure themselves. So it's all just... Suspicious.
The link just leads to mizuki's history EE, which was already addressed, but since we know what the opposition is referring to, it would be addressed in advance;
"Conceptual Attacks" aren't "destroying your concept" but rather adding the concept of doing something (like ignoring durability) to your attacks. It's just unrelated to "killing concepts" so the argument falls apart.
"Complete erasure" — there is no proof that Gods can regenerate from this. In fact, it's even said that the Sea of Darkness that Gods return to after temporart death is "positively lenient" compared to complete/true erasure, so there's absolutely zero reason to believe Gods can come back from this.
Causality erasure — Once again has no proof of a god actually surviving this just because it exists in the Sea. In fact, it likely refers to something similar to this feat. And that is literally just "you attack your enemy's past self and the other person evades it by manipulating their own past self (more causality manip).
I think it would be better to present a clear and well structured summary of your arguments, as Astral and the others did.
You can first discuss these arguments with those who agree with you, in order to refine them and ensure their consistency. After that, you can publish a comment that includes this summary, so that everyone can evaluate it alongside Astral’s summary and conduct a vote by the staff.
And I repeat: do not respond to each other.
You will respond, and he will respond, and it will not end this way.
The Hedgehog countered this attack, which forcibly rewrote established events, by manipulating his past self.
Altering events within a limited space-time (continuum) is a skill that gods are naturally possess. If one cannot fight on that level, one is not qualified to fight a god
Everything said here, even your arguments, are the ones from the OP. "Incorrect" is a subjective way to put it, if you believe it's wrong then make one yourself.
I think it would be better to present a clear and well structured summary of your arguments, as Astral and the others did.
You can first discuss these arguments with those who agree with you, in order to refine them and ensure their consistency. After that, you can publish a comment that includes this summary, so that everyone can evaluate it alongside Astral’s summary and conduct a vote by the staff.
And I repeat: do not respond to each other.
You will respond, and he will respond, and it will not end this way.
The claim that gods and most characters possess immeasurable speed due to the Hedgehog is incomplete. Even if the Hedgehog’s immeasurable speed is removed, the issues in the calculations and arguments would become even larger, since there are also numerous feats that support gods and several characters having immeasurable speed.
The counterargument is simply that the Hedgehog’s ability lies in its capacity to evade anything, as shown by the god’s own statement here ↓
The Hedgehog retains its immeasurable speed along with past manipulation, and I will now explain what “past manipulation” means in this context.
The most important point is to remember that the Hedgehog can always evade anything. This is the core issue: it can avoid attacks regardless of their nature due to its speed. This is why the goddess attacked the past itself—she launched an attack through time itself. This is a temporal attack and can be considered immeasurable since it targets time itself.
However, the Hedgehog evaded this attack by manipulating the past, specifically by modifying its own past self. It evaded the attack using its past version, effectively moving further into the past relative to the attack. In doing so, it used immeasurable speed to shift into an earlier temporal point to avoid the temporal strike. This combines both immeasurable speed and past manipulation. The past manipulation was necessary to avoid the attack, but it does not negate its immeasurable speed, because the attack was not targeting its present self but its past self. Therefore, it altered its own past and moved further back in time through that past version to evade the attack.
Even now, the context still supports immeasurable speed, because it moved through time and evaded the attack using its past self by shifting further into the past. Additionally, the temporal attack itself should already qualify as immeasurable speed, since it is an attack that operates through time.
Based on this, the Hedgehog possesses both past manipulation and immeasurable speed, as it combines both abilities to evade the attack. These were necessary to avoid the strike, since it was not targeting its present self. Therefore, it manipulated its past self and moved further back in time through that past version to evade the god’s attack.
Response to the arguments regarding High-Godly regeneration:
First, there is no evidence supporting the OP’s claim that it was only used once; the claim itself was not substantiated.
Second, the erasure failed because Mitsuki attacked Yogiri, and Yogiri, of course, killed him. That is why the attack failed. I have already explained this in detail with full context ↓
What happened here is that Mitsuki was going to erase Yogiri across the entire timeline (past, present, and future), as if he had never existed and would be completely forgotten. When Mitsuki prepared the erasure bullet in his hand, he threw it calmly and at a deliberately slow speed because he knew it could not be avoided; even if Yogiri tried to escape, it would follow him regardless. Yogiri was aware of this, so he opened his third gate and freed himself from all constraints. He then severed the connection between Mitsuki and his dream, which led to the loss of Mitsuki’s authority over the dream. This caused the erasure bullet to fail to reach Yogiri, since he had been disconnected from the dream, resulting in the cancellation of the erasure shot that was heading toward him. That is all.
The Great Sage raised his right hand. A small light illuminated at its tip.
"This looks seriously bad!"
"Indeed."
Yogiri, a novice, had no way of knowing the potency of magical-like powers just by looking. However, the wild pressure it held was something anyone could feel.
"Let's call it the Erasure Bullet. If it hits, it erases the existence in the past, present, and future. Simply put, I just forget about you and don't remember."
"So, because this is your dream, if you forget about something, its existence disappears?"
"That's right. There's really no need to resort to this kind of method, but I thought it would add a bit of a challenge. It's about the speed a person would throw, so if you try hard, you can avoid it. Here it goes."
"Please wait!" Volume 14, Chapter 17
“He had thrown an annihilation bullet, and Yogiri hadn't dodged it.
“Since he didn't remember the scene of the bullet hitting, it seemed to have turned into the current situation just before it hit.” Volume 14, Chapter 17
"If you're asking, I have no choice but to answer. I will tell you. Takato Yogiri has severed the connection between you and the world."
"...What... does that mean...?"
He didn’t understand. He knew how to kill a living being. He barely understood how to kill a phenomenon like gravity. But what did it mean to kill a connection?
Imagine the world as someone’s dream—how could one escape its influence? You would need to sever your connection to the dream. You would need to lose the ability to manipulate it freely. That is what Takato Yogiri likely thought.
"...What does that mean...?"
I gave you an example involving a game earlier. Using that analogy, it’s as if your controller has been broken. In other words, you can no longer do anything. Volume 14, Chapter 17
Third, it does not matter whether the attack was used once or not.
What matters is that Mitsuki is incapable of killing gods, which is why he resorts to sealing them. The context itself also shows how much Mitsuki hates them—he even hates seeing their faces—yet he still could not kill them because they would return. This is the clearest supporting context ↓
"I believed it was also acceptable to kill you. You and the UEG both lost, so erasing you completely seemed appropriate. But Lord Mitsuki is kinder than I am."
"Kind? If he's so kind, why did he seal me away?!"
"He was kind in that he did not take your life. Then again, if he had, you would have just revived somewhere else, so if he wished to never see you again, sealing you away was perhaps the best option.
Fourth, history erasure or attacks on the level of history are not anything remarkable. In fact, even the most minor or random gods are capable of doing that as well. Here is the evidence ↓
Then eyes appeared. Countless eyes opened, surrounding the Hedgehog. This time, she intended to deliver a decisive blow. Past, present, and future she would unleash an attack that sees everything and cannot be evaded. Yet the Hedgehog continued gathering power, ignoring all of it. Volume 7, Chapter 23
Here, one of the random gods in Volume 7, Chapter 23 carried out an attack across all of history, covering (the past, present, and future), as is clearly shown before you. Therefore, attempting to portray erasure at this level as something remarkable or extraordinary in the series is self-evidently incorrect; rather, all gods are capable of operating at this level.
Fifth, the argument that gods have weaknesses and can be killed with a single stab is false. Elizhaa responded to this yesterday in another thread. It is a ridiculous and chaotic claim. Elizhaa already came and refuted all the arguments in that thread I opened, because unfortunately the OP copied incorrect earlier statements.
In any case, this is Elizhaa’s argument regarding Miranda and everything related to those supposed weaknesses and stabbing claims… all of those empty conclusions have already been refuted and clarified in his comment, and I had already corrected them earlier as well.
Elizhaa’s comment explains everything clearly: gods, in short, cannot be fundamentally killed or destroyed. Death is merely another state of existence for gods. And as stated in the novel itself, Yogiri is the only one capable of permanently killing gods.
Note: gods can be killed and can die, and nothing prevents that. However, gods will always eventually return. Death is simply another state of existence for them. This is why some users misunderstand the novel when they see statements like “he died” or “this is how to kill me.” No one is claiming gods do not die; rather, they can die, but not be permanently killed—they will return eventually, because death is just another state of existence for them. In this exact thread currently being discussed, the issue of gods possessing NEP 1 is addressed, and Elizhaa has agreed with it. They will even have all associated aspects, and staff can verify the thread regarding the addition of NEP 1 and NEP 2 to The End. The thread is still ongoing, but Elizhaa currently agrees that gods possess NEP 1 with all aspects.
Before anything, I will present evidence regarding the gods:
She had killed any number of gods, but death was just another state of being for them, one from which they would eventually recover.
Gods were fundamentally indestructible. Even if you killed or erased them, in time they would reappear. So in battles between gods, it was common for the winner to either enslave the loser or take measures to seal them away.
As the novel repeatedly states, gods can never be permanently killed; they will always return, and death is merely another state of existence for them. As I said, staff members can refer to this thread to better understand the matter.
These abilities are common in Instant Death, and anyone within it can possess them ↓
Instant death. Reflection. Time stop. Time reversal. Spatial severance. Total erasure. Conceptual attacks. Causality erasure. Such things were possible for virtually anyone in the sea.
As everyone can see, (causality-level erasure, conceptual erasure, and total erasure are all common abilities that anyone in the Sea can possess).
Therefore, gods should be able to return even after erasure at all of these levels, since these abilities are common and accessible to everyone in the Sea. Claiming that gods cannot return from this even contradicts what the novel itself states. Even the Great Sage, who is above high-ranking gods such as UEG, is completely unable to permanently kill gods and instead resorts to sealing them. This is clear evidence that erasure at these levels is ineffective; otherwise, Mitsuki would have been able to kill them outright, since he is nearly omniscient and omnipotent. And since such abilities are available to anyone in Instant Death, Mitsuki would also possess them, being nearly omnipotent and omniscient. He would therefore know that erasure at these levels would not work, which is why he remains unable to do so.
Conclusion: it should now be added, regarding High-Godly regeneration, that gods return even from conceptual, causal, and even complete erasure, as well as informational erasure. This is because gods manipulate Type 2 information across multiple layers and can change everything, even resurrecting themselves through information manipulation. All gods possess layered structures; even the Great Sage has 2 or 3 layers of Type 2 information manipulation and Type 2 conceptual manipulation, and is still unable to permanently kill gods, as they will return.
The novel states one fundamental principle, which is that gods cannot be permanently killed at a fundamental level, as clearly shown here ↓
Gods were fundamentally indestructible. Even if you killed or erased them, in time they would reappear. So in battles between gods, it was common for the winner to either enslave the loser or take measures to seal them away.
Yogiri is the only one in the entire series who can permanently kill gods.
The sword has a property that allows it to kill gods on a conceptual level. It killed UEG on the conceptual level and successfully eliminated her after he took the sword and destroyed her divine essence on that conceptual level, completely erasing her. The boy himself confirmed that he had fully erased her at that level; however, UEG still returned. The same thing happened with Toichiro, who carried out an attack that erased the higher universe containing UEG, and he himself stated that he had completely erased her. In this context, the term “completely” supports (total erasure).
Rick’s sword:
You are a swordsman who has killed gods, and you possess a holy sword designed for such. That combination should reinforce your godslaying capability on a conceptual level.”
Rick had once used the Holy Sword Orz to kill the goddess Vahanato. That fact lent him a conceptual advantage in killing gods. Truthfully, Rickdidn’t really understand how it worked, but if the Divine King said that wasthe case, he could do nothing but believe her.
No single one of these factors was enough to protect Richard from her attack, but with all of them together, Richard was just barely strong enough to fight back.
“Ah, I get it. That sword is the one that killed me, so it’s got the concept of god-slaying infused into it now. Now I’m mad! No more Mrs. Nice Goddess!”
Vahanato brought the weapons floating around her to bear, each of them firing a beam of light all at once. Her attack had been stopped whenshe was holding back, but what would happen if she went all out?
Rick stepped over to the UEG's side. Taking his sword in both hands, he pointed it at the center of her chest. That should have been where her divine core resided. If he could pierce it, she should die. Rick carefully stabbed down. The Holy Sword passed through the barrier and reached the UEG's chest. It pierced through her clothes and split apart her flesh.Any ordinary attack would have failed to reach the core that resided underneath, but the god-slaying Holy Sword found it without issue Feeling the resistance from the core, he plunged the sword deeper in. The Holy Sword pierced through her core and unleashed an explosive power. The explosion tore apart her divine core, scattering the body that it had sustained, the pieces dissolving into light and disappearing
Yes. The UEG has been erased." Rick had felt the attack succeed. As if satisfied with the result, the sword in his hands vibrated happily
The answer came from behind them. They turned to see the UEG standing there. She looked no different from before, staring at the group with an exasperated expression
Unbelievable. I definitely felt her core being destroyed..."
Surely those other weaklings who call themselves gods would be killed once their core is destroyed. But a true god has no weaknesses. Even the concept of death does not apply to us
He had definitely felt her destruction. Her body had been erased, and her presence had vanished. Rick was absolutely certain she had been defeated. Yet even so, she stood before them like nothing had happened. He found it incomprehensible. Before such an absurdly powerful enemy, he had no idea how to proceed Vol.10 Chapter 9
There should have been no end to the cycle, but suddenly there was. Touichirou's attack had erased the universe containing the UEG You... You should have been erased." He had watched her being erased along with the universe around her, failing to escape in time. And in truth, up until that point, the UEG had ceased to exist Vol.10 Chapter 19
Alright, the basic principle is that gods cannot be killed permanently, and the only one capable of killing gods is Yogiri.
The Sea of Darkness is a void in which there is nothing at all; even darkness and light do not exist. There is absolutely nothing. Elizhaa has explained this in another thread here, and this void possesses NEP 1 nature.
What you are referring to regarding true erasure is Yogiri’s true form itself. Are you comparing Yogiri’s true form to the Sea of Darkness???
Staff members should also check this and understand the matter. Elizhaa has already addressed and responded to this in the same comment here: the issue of gods “not understanding,” or that true erasure refers to Yogiri’s true form that transcends everything—where nothing exists beyond it and nothing can exist within it. In the end, he is the only one who remains because he is the end itself, the end of everything, and does not allow the existence of anything. It is an absolute nothingness that transcends everything. It is the end of the Sea of Darkness and the end of existence itself.
The Sea of Darkness is merely an empty void with NEP 1 nature. It is the end of that sea itself and the end of existence, and it transcends the duality of existence and non-existence (where non-existence here refers to the Sea of Darkness with NEP 1 nature, as well as gods with NEP 1). The “End,” however, transcends this duality of existence and non-existence; it is the end of both existence and non-existence, and the end of everything else.
Evidence:
His darkness is a void of nothingness where nothing exists, and nothing is allowed to exist here.
What is this?" Not being able to quickly grasp the situation, UEG was dumbfounded for a while. However, time is subjective, and in reality, not much time has passed.
In front of UEG, there was an endless darkness. A void of nothingness.
Then she tried to find another dimension, another parallel world, another universe, but that didn't work either. What she see is nothing but emptiness.
There really is nothing here.
Realizing this, UEG was slowly beginning to feel fear. No matter where she tried to go, there was nothing. As long as there was nothing, there was nowhere to travel to.
"Well, then! I'll destroy everything! Space-time! The universe! The higher universes, including that one too!"
UEG unleashed all of her power with all of her might, but the power that was supposed to destroy everything disappeared into the void. The power of UEG had no effect on the surroundings.
"It's useless. There's nothing here. You can't destroy something
that isn't there."
"Yeah. I'm glad to see you fluttering in a hurry. It's a shame we can't send this information to my main body."
However, despite UEG's request, the illusion who called himself the Dragon disappeared into the darkness.
"Well, then you can make a world here."
If there is nothing and nowhere to go, then she can create it here herself. She is a god, so she can at least do creation. It should be possible, but no matter what was made, it immediately melted into the darkness. Nothing is allowed to exist here.
And UEG realized that she was in the process of melting into the darkness.
She tried to keep herself together somehow, but gradually she began to lose sight of what she was doing.
"...... why...... why should the mistress go through this ......"
UEG lost her shape, lost sense of who she was, and eventually disappeared into the darkness. Volume 8 chapter 1
It was a dead end. The destination of all fates, beyond which there is nothing. The end of everything in human form. It is precisely because it is the end that it stands until the end. No one can go further than it. Before this thing, fate, the plot, and the like must be a joke.
Before countering your arguments, I would explain what is Summary Post. Summary Post is Post which covers both sides argumentation rather than arguing from one side's persepective. What you did is not summary post. So I will take Astal's Summary Post as summary, asking him to add last points from both sides.
The Hedgehog retains its immeasurable speed along with past manipulation, and I will now explain what “past manipulation” means in this context.
The most important point is to remember that the Hedgehog can always evade anything. This is the core issue: it can avoid attacks regardless of their nature due to its speed. This is why the goddess attacked the past itself—she launched an attack through time itself. This is a temporal attack and can be considered immeasurable since it targets time itself.
You are providing context..... To debunk yourself more.
1. You are telling us nature of Hedgehog is always evading regardless attack.
And how he does that? Yep by ability,
> Within a limited space-time environment, the ability to alterphenomena was only natural for a god. If one couldn’t fight on that level, theyhad no business fighting a god. For the Hedgehog, who had been designedspecifically to fight against gods, such an ability was a necessary function.
And another logical question would be asking -> Why he himself would move into past when in context his past is getting attacked? Isn't that contradiction?
To understand it simply, let's take it Hecker and Azerty as example. Azerty attacks Hecker's past. In this context Hecker(Who is facing Azerty) isn't Acausal 2 or exists only in past. So why he would move to past, if his past is getting attacked? Isn't it clear, it was his past self which dodged from attack?
As you see, getting context here isn't even hard. Hedgehog here has ability that alters phenomena. And essentially that allows Hedgehog dodge any attack by manipulation.
The Hedgehog countered this attack, which forcibly rewrote established events, by manipulating his past self.
Altering events within a limited space-time (continuum) is a skill that gods are naturally possess. If one cannot fight on that level, one is not qualified to fight a god
Then eyes appeared. Countless eyes opened, surrounding the Hedgehog. This time, she intended to deliver a decisive blow. Past, present, and future she would unleash an attack that sees everything and cannot be evaded. Yet the Hedgehog continued gathering power, ignoring all of it.
Doesn't disprove it being Causality Manipulation. It simply proves it being ability even more.
Regarding that statemet again, user using it to prove gods have historical erasure. Hence attacking past, present, future is proof why gods have historical erasure. But as you can see. Nothing tells us that it is erasure, rather than it being attack. I can see it being range or heck even argument for immeasurable attack speed. But it is not definitely erasure.
Not even whole context of Chapter 23 tells us attacks in question being "erasure". Unless you can prove somewhat it is existence erasure. It is burden of proof from you.
Regarding assumption of "Yes every god can regenerate from erasure bold"
I think me and Astral explained why it falls into non-sequitur here
The fact he forgets about gods means he doesn't even remember if they can regenerate from it or not. This is not even hard to connect that erasure Alexia talking about is very different thing. How they would even remember the fact they can regenarate from Erasure Bold if it straight up erases past, present, future of character to point Gods forget that even. This is non-sequitur. It is clear she is talking about different thing that she knows and remembers.
This is obviously talking about existence erasure won't work not erasure bolt itself, seeing how UEG regenerated from previous attacks. Because it makes no sense, them knowing fact about "UEG can regen from History" when Bold erases even fact character is erased. This is not even hard to get. Unless you want to argue about it, it would straight up cancel fact of History Erasure being History Erasure in first place.
Other than the section on History erasure removal already addressing this, there's also the fact that said "history erasure" works even on Mizuki himself. Mizuki is of course a God, so if Gods really can come back from history erasure, there's no reason for them to be effected by it to begin with, they shouldn't forget beings that were effected by the History erasure themselves. So it's all just... Suspicious.
So i just don't want to recycle argument when rebuttal doesn't even address main problem we have.
Regarding buzzwords you dropped without understanding context, @Ruler_Star_Kuma will explain you why it is not correct assumption, and seeing how argument from opposition fails to address SweetDao's Topic, i will just link recently accepted discussion rule
Any new CRT centred around addition of previously rejected abilities must contain a link to the previous CRT where it was rejected, furthermore the OP must be self sufficient in addressing the reasoning behind the rejection, if it fails to address the logic behind the removal then the thread is liable to be removed under a moderators discretion however it can still be opened at a later point in time if the OP is adequately edited to meet the above requirements. The previous downgrades have been agreed upon without much intervention as such changing them requires sufficient evidence, something which has been quite lacking in recent revisions.
I might be wrong, but i assume i have rights to ignore arguments that fail to address point of downgrades that has been accepted.
And NEP, idk why you are bringing this up, when we have ongoing thread from you. I feel like it is simply derailing my thread which just argues about Regeneration and Speed issues.
you're also trying to get some NEP out of this when UEG, who would have visited the Sea of Darkness that is "another state of existence" for Gods (death), refused to believe the concept of Non-existence.
Personally I have no problems with arguing and refuting NEP here also. Only if you agree to close your ongoing thread and argue NEP here as well. If you refuse then just don't bring NEP topic here.
I am done for now. @Ruler_Star_Kuma will cover some essential points about other aspects erasure since opposition brought it up. But for last I want to tell, with amount of derailing done by Azerty himself, which can be seen multiple times in his normal threads(This is why average Instant Death thread became so controversial when SweetDao left wiki) I hope staff members who questioned why it is staff thread, understand us.
There’s an argument to be made that UGE, Alexis, and Luu should have Erasure Bolt, since all of Mitsuki’s powers and abilities—excluding his natural beauty—come from the three goddesses.
Personally I have no problems with arguing and refuting NEP here also. Only if you agree to close your ongoing thread and argue NEP here as well. If you refuse then just don't bring NEP topic here.
Personally I feel like arguing NEP is inevitable here cuz part of Azerty's arguments from this thread and other thread (which he'll likely bring over to here too) seem to be based on Sea of Darkness being NEP and thus erasing all of gods' existing aspects.
I mean, the fact that he doesn't even realize that Complete Erasure > Sea of Darkness, the latter Gods can come back from, the former has no proof (I mean, if they're erased beyond a point they can come back from, it's only fair to assume they won't come back then)
Also
There is no manipulation in the translation.
It is possible that the intention is to focus on the essential or most important parts of the text, rather than translating every detail that may not affect the main meaning.
It is true that context plays an important role in translation, but this does not mean it is always a necessary condition in every case. Some sentences are self contained and clear in their meaning, and can be understood and translated correctly without needing to refer to what comes before or after them.
In this specific case, the sentence was clear and direct in meaning, and therefore did not require additional context to be properly understood or accurately translated.
Here is the translation of the full text: It took two hours
However, it was not that it was particular about killing anything other than the target, which was God.
If it understood that the one to be killed was unrelated,it would sometimes set the next target and leave.
The criteria for that judgment were not well understood. Even it itself did not understand them.
Inside it, multiple computational devices were built in, but those were merely things that had been shoved in at random,and they were not coordinated.
The one who sent it likely did not have any significant plan.
It would be fine if someday, somewhere, it even so much as grazed the target.
That was the level of thinking.
Ah, damn it! Our Pochi has been split clean in two! What are you gonna do about this?!
A forest located near the capital of the ruined Manny Kingdom.
There, an invader called Hedgehog and a woman possessing divinity were confronting each other.
The Hedgehog, whose entire black body was equipped with blades, was an embodiment of slaughter and had cut down various beings in this world.
The giant wolf the woman was riding called in this world the Starving Wolf King also became a victim of the Hedgehog.
No way, absolutely no way. Ignoring me and cutting down Pochi what the hell is that?!
The Hedgehog was, in localized terms, functioning normally.
Ignoring the god who was protecting herself flawlessly, it attacked the wolf.
Half baked attacks do not work against a god, but if the mind wavers, cracks can appear.
So, the Hedgehog expected that an opening might occur, but although she seemed surprised, the woman’s barrier remained perfect.
The Hedgehog had not thought about what would happen afterward.
It had not considered whether that was necessary to achieve its final objective it was merely repeating improvised actions.
The Hedgehog was broken.
It could be called an initial defect. Thrown into this world without proper adjustment, multiple computational units were making judgments independently, and it had not reached possessing a large scale perspective.
Die!
The Hedgehog’s right arm was twisted off and blown away.
You’re dodging that now?!
The woman, who at first seemed angry, upon seeing that, barked as if enjoying it. An attack toward the past. That attack, which forcibly rewrites an already determined event, was dealt with by the Hedgehog by manipulating its own self further in the past. The alteration of events within a limited spacetime is, for a god, an ability that comes naturally. If one cannot fight on that level, one has no qualification to fight a god.
The Hedgehog, created to defeat gods, naturally possessed functions to counter that.
As expected of a god slaying machine! But the difference in power is obvious! What are you gonna show me from here?!
This place is not a world ruled by that woman, and that power is not her original one.
Yet even so, the difference in ability between her and the Hedgehog was clear.
Then what will it do?
The Hedgehog has no thoughts.It merely does what it can at the present moment.It deploys the blades all over its body, leans forward, and accumulates power.
Heh? A reckless, desperate charge, huh? Nice. That kind of thing ain’t bad either!
The woman claps both palms together in front of her chest.
so yes
hax Note:I have modified the relevant part and changed some things in it (the meaning is the same, so it does not matter).
Before countering your arguments, I would explain what is Summary Post. Summary Post is Post which covers both sides argumentation rather than arguing from one side's persepective. What you did is not summary post. So I will take Astal's Summary Post as summary, asking him to add last points from both sides.
Literally you are refuting your own point.
You are providing context..... To debunk yourself more.
1. You are telling us nature of Hedgehog is always evading regardless attack.
And how he does that? Yep by ability,
> Within a limited space-time environment, the ability to alterphenomena was only natural for a god. If one couldn’t fight on that level, theyhad no business fighting a god. For the Hedgehog, who had been designedspecifically to fight against gods, such an ability was a necessary function.
And another logical question would be asking -> Why he himself would move into past when in context his past is getting attacked? Isn't that contradiction?
To understand it simply, let's take it Hecker and Azerty as example. Azerty attacks Hecker's past. In this context Hecker(Who is facing Azerty) isn't Acausal 2 or exists only in past. So why he would move to past, if his past is getting attacked? Isn't it clear, it was his past self which dodged from attack?
As you see, getting context here isn't even hard. Hedgehog here has ability that alters phenomena. And essentially that allows Hedgehog dodge any attack by manipulation.
It is explained here
So this
Volume 7, Chapter 23
Doesn't disprove it being Causality Manipulation. It simply proves it being ability even more.
Regarding that statemet again, user using it to prove gods have historical erasure. Hence attacking past, present, future is proof why gods have historical erasure. But as you can see. Nothing tells us that it is erasure, rather than it being attack. I can see it being range or heck even argument for immeasurable attack speed. But it is not definitely erasure.
Not even whole context of Chapter 23 tells us attacks in question being "erasure". Unless you can prove somewhat it is existence erasure. It is burden of proof from you.
Regarding assumption of "Yes every god can regenerate from erasure bold"
I think me and Astral explained why it falls into non-sequitur here
So i just don't want to recycle argument when rebuttal doesn't even address main problem we have.
Regarding buzzwords you dropped without understanding context, @Ruler_Star_Kuma will explain you why it is not correct assumption, and seeing how argument from opposition fails to address SweetDao's Topic, i will just link recently accepted discussion rule
Any new CRT centred around addition of previously rejected abilities must contain a link to the previous CRT where it was rejected, furthermore the OP must be self sufficient in addressing the reasoning behind the rejection, if it fails to address the logic behind the removal then the thread is liable to be removed under a moderators discretion however it can still be opened at a later point in time if the OP is adequately edited to meet the above requirements. The previous downgrades have been agreed upon without much intervention as such changing them requires sufficient evidence, something which has been quite lacking in recent revisions.
I might be wrong, but i assume i have rights to ignore arguments that fail to address point of downgrades that has been accepted.
And NEP, idk why you are bringing this up, when we have ongoing thread from you. I feel like it is simply derailing my thread which just argues about Regeneration and Speed issues.
It seems you didn’t actually understand what I meant by “ability” in the first place. I’m not referring to it as an ability in the way you perceive it.
What I mean is that the Hedgehog is capable of dodging attacks through his speed. This isn’t an “ability” in that sense—I’m just describing what he does. It’s better not to use the term “ability” here so you don’t try to impose those arguments. Simply put, what the Hedgehog does is evade attacks using his immeasurable speed.
You either didn’t understand what I said, or the translation was poor.
First, all gods would obtain immeasurable speed due to these temporal attacks. Their attacks can cover the entire timeline, so even if your speed is immeasurable across the whole timeline, you still wouldn’t be able to escape. Therefore, gods must possess immeasurable speed.
Now back to the Hedgehog:
Since the Hedgehog can dodge (reaction speed + perception speed) the temporal attacks themselves, then he obviously has immeasurable speed as well. And as I said, this isn’t an “ability”—it’s simply what he does, like Goku in Ultra Instinct. Speed is part of the properties of Ultra Instinct, and that’s what I mean here: the Hedgehog’s speed in dodging attacks is his reaction speed.
Now it’s time to explain exactly what happened with the attack directed at the past:
The god launched an attack at the past.
The Hedgehog manipulated his past self and avoided that attack through his past self by moving it further into the past. This has nothing to do with his present self. Rather, it’s manipulation of his past self (his past version). He avoided the attack directed at it by moving that past version further back in time to evade the god’s attack.
This still combines past manipulation with immeasurable speed. In the end, all he did was evade the attack through his past self. He can control his past self and avoid the attack by moving it further into the past in order to evade that attack.
That’s all. There’s nothing unclear here.
As for what you said about the “history-level attack,” I think you’re starting to create contradictions, even though the matter is straightforward. Gods are near-omniscient and near-omnipotent, as you know. What one god can do, another god can also do. Mitsuki obtained his power from the gods in the first place—he even combined the power of three gods. In the end, all gods are near-omnipotent and near-omniscient, so they all possess the same capabilities.
The type of attack doesn’t matter. What matters is that the attack operates on the level of the entire history. Gods can erase across multiple levels—the key point is that their attack can affect the entire timeline. The nature of the attack itself can vary depending on the god’s will.
I think you may not realize that all gods are near-omnipotent and near-omniscient. What one god has, another god also has. Do you know what the difference is?
The Ultimate God explained this:
There is a hierarchy among the gods, and likewise a hierarchy in omnipotence and omniscience. All gods are near-omnipotent and near-omniscient, but the omnipotence of a lower-level god does not affect a higher-level god—that’s the only difference. In other words, all gods possess omnipotence and can do anything, but the capabilities of a lower-level god are the same as those of a higher-level god; however, the lower-level god’s abilities cannot affect a higher-level god.
That’s why all gods have 11 layers in all abilities and resistances in their profiles. Any higher-level god will have resistance to all abilities with layered scaling, and even for abilities like existence erasure, a higher-level god would have additional layers, whereas a lower-level god would only have basic existence erasure, and so on.
The proof is in the statement of the Ultimate God ↓
Higher-level omnipotence is unbeatable by lower-level ones
Personally I have no problems with arguing and refuting NEP here also. Only if you agree to close your ongoing thread and argue NEP here as well. If you refuse then just don't bring NEP topic here.
I am done for now. @Ruler_Star_Kuma will cover some essential points about other aspects erasure since opposition brought it up. But for last I want to tell, with amount of derailing done by Azerty himself, which can be seen multiple times in his normal threads(This is why average Instant Death thread became so controversial when SweetDao left wiki) I hope staff members who questioned why it is staff thread, understand us.
Don’t make me remind you that you opened this thread specifically to influence the thread you created about NEP 1. As I told you, the arguments currently being discussed there—and Elizhaa’s statements—contradict what you’re saying here, since the same points are being repeated, such as Ruler_Star_Kuma’s arguments that were already refuted by Elizhaa. So this is clearly related; in fact, as I said, your post aims to influence the NEP thread, especially since the staff agree that the gods possess NEP.
you and that guys refutations don't even go within the discussion rule made to explicitly go against such things
I have to wonder if you or elizhaa get what BEING WITHIN THE LINES OF THE DISCUSSION RULE IS, can I get a 'yes I understand quite well?' or is that too, not gonna be shown by the very nep thread made after the fact
At the VERY least can we get an ACKNOWLEDGEMENT of past threads since you and them like using arguments that got blasted away by sweetdao in the first place? Any sort of 'past thread doesn't account for-' would work
I won't respond to last comment from Azerty, since some points doesn't even correlate(and it doesn't even address anything). But I take Azerty's comment as agreement to discuss NEP here(Summary already contains NEP arguments if so).
you and that guys refutations don't even go within the discussion rule made to explicitly go against such things
I have to wonder if you or elizhaa get what BEING WITHIN THE LINES OF THE DISCUSSION RULE IS, can I get a 'yes I understand quite well?' or is that too, not gonna be shown by the very nep thread made after the fact
At the VERY least can we get an ACKNOWLEDGEMENT of past threads since you and them like using arguments that got blasted away by sweetdao in the first place? Any sort of 'past thread doesn't account for-' would work
Can you stop accusing people like this? Elizhaa is an expert on Instant Death, and his name is listed among the supporting experts. This comment is clearly biased and is a direct accusation against the staff’s statements, and it is also a personal attack against me as well.
SweetDao is not an expert on Instant Death, and due to the absence of supporters, the work was downgraded. After I joined and some supporters returned, the work became at a completely different level compared to before. So stop making such accusations about people in these comments. I do not accept any further comments like this. This is the last time I will hold myself back because of a comment like this; this is a clear attack, bias, and accusation.
I won't respond to last comment from Azerty, since some points doesn't even correlate(and it doesn't even address anything). But I take Azerty's comment as agreement to discuss NEP here(Summary already contains NEP arguments if so).
Can you stop this?? Who told you that I agreed?
Also, it would be better for you not to speak as if what you’re saying is correct in order to mislead the members here, when everything you’re saying is fundamentally wrong.
Can you stop this?? Who told you that I agreed?
Also, it would be better for you not to speak as if what you’re saying is correct in order to mislead the members here, when everything you’re saying is fundamentally wrong.
Can you stop accusing people like this? Elizhaa is an expert on Instant Death, and his name is listed among the supporting experts. This comment is clearly biased and is a direct accusation against the staff’s statements, and it is also a personal attack against me as well.
Don't even go trying to play that 'biased' card because it's been consecutive with you as among many people who likely see it but refuse to comment on it due to your unseriousness hence their own unseriousness towards you and i'll call it out as it is Sorry that's just how I am, you aren't free from accusing people either, mr azerty who says they aren't attacking raiki's tls but laughs at them and their translations beforehand in a prior thread for the sake of it
Acting like a 'knowledgeable member' can't make a mistake is certainly a choice
My phone died as I was making the response so I'll finish what I need to and then I'd say I'm done.
In my opinion on gods with high godly even UEG herself—one of the most omnipotent deities—can’t permanently erase another god and doesn’t believe it’s possible. This reinforces the idea that nothing in ID, including things like the Wandering Edge, CFE info, and concept type 2 erasure, can truly erase gods.
Some of us believe in a theory like this: There are universes contained inside larger universes and so on. Why has that total collection of universes survived? If space and time are infinite, then there is a possibility that eventually an ultimate being would emerge, one that could wipe out all universes on a whim. If the possibility isn’t zero, then given infinite time, it is guaranteed to happen. But it hasn’t. From what we’ve been able to observe, once gods reach a certain threshold of power, they disappear. So there must be someone out there erasing them, right? There must be some sort of limit or criteria being applied.”
“Criteria?”
The UEG had never considered that. She had believed gods were indestructible, eternal beings. She had killed any number of gods, but death was just another state of being for them, one from which they would eventually recover.
There is no speed feat here, and it has nothing to do with speed.
Neither the woman nor the hedgehog go to the past. Both remain in the present and directly affect past events through their abilities.
Simply put, this is just a hax battle.
At time T3 (the present): the hedgehog is unharmed
The woman attacks him by changing an event in the past at T2 to make him damaged in the present
The hedgehog does not confront the attack directly, but instead goes to an earlier time T1 (before T2)
At T1, he modifies himself or his state in a way that makes the change that will occur at T2 have no effect on him
Therefore, when the woman tries to change T2, the hedgehog has already "preceded the event" and modified himself beforehand, so the change does not affect him at all.
An attack toward the past.
That attack, which forcibly rewrites an already determined event, was dealt with by the Hedgehog by manipulating its own self further in the past.
The alteration of events within a limited spacetime is, for a god, an ability that comes naturally. If one cannot fight on that level, one has no qualification to fight a god.
The Hedgehog, created to defeat gods, naturally possessed functions to counter that.
There is no speed feat here, and it has nothing to do with speed.
Neither the woman nor the hedgehog go to the past. Both remain in the present and directly affect past events through their abilities.
Simply put, this is just a hax battle.
At time T3 (the present): the hedgehog is unharmed
The woman attacks him by changing an event in the past at T2 to make him damaged in the present
The hedgehog does not confront the attack directly, but instead goes to an earlier time T1 (before T2)
At T1, he modifies himself or his state in a way that makes the change that will occur at T2 have no effect on him
Therefore, when the woman tries to change T2, the hedgehog has already "preceded the event" and modified himself beforehand, so the change does not affect him at all.
Don’t you know there is something called attack speed? Or that there are actually different types of speed?
The attack speed of gods is unquantifiable because their attacks are temporal in nature, targeting the past itself. Their attacks can even target the entire timeline, and the attack cannot be avoided because it already includes the whole history. Even a character with unmeasurable speed would not be able to handle this kind of attack, since it covers the entire timeline. Even if they could move faster through time itself, they still cannot evade it. This is what qualifies gods to have unmeasurable speed, because their attacks can span across all of history.
Do you have any objection to this? If you disagree, you can present your reasons. Otherwise, it seems you are not aware of the different types of speed, and that there is something called attack speed.
Then eyes appeared. Countless eyes opened, surrounding the Hedgehog. This time, she intended to deliver a decisive blow. Past, present, and future she would unleash an attack that sees everything and cannot be evaded. Yet the Hedgehog continued gathering power, ignoring all of it.
Alright, he can translate that, but do you think that will actually change anything?
As shown in the same chapter, the gods are capable of directing temporal attacks through time itself, and this alone is sufficient to grant them immeasurable speed—specifically in terms of attack speed.
The hedgehog was able to evade any attack due to his speed, and because of this, the gods decided to launch a comprehensive attack across the entirety of history so that it could not be avoided. This attack perceives the past, present, and future, and it is impossible to evade because it sees everything. Evasion of any kind would not work; therefore, regardless of how fast you are—whether immeasurable or otherwise—you would not be able to avoid this attack. The text explicitly states that evasion is impossible; attempting to evade is futile. This means that anything related to speed, regardless of its level, would fail to allow escape, because the attack encompasses all of history.
No matter what you do or say, you cannot change this fact—especially the fact that evasion has become fundamentally impossible. This demonstrates that the attack covers the entirety of history, which is what forced the hedgehog to gather all of his power just to confront it directly, since attempting to evade it across all of history had become impossible.
With a bursting sound, the world completely changed. Around the woman, a domain of control spread.
The hedgehog was swallowed into the woman’s world, but without being disturbed, it continued concentrating its power.
Even if it is a god, within another god’s domain of control, it cannot exert its full strength. Even if it deploys its own domain, there is a limit to the power it can bring out.
The hedgehog had also deployed a small scale domain around itself. Therefore, the god’s power does not directly reach its body. At the very least, instant death can be avoided.
Eyes appeared. Countless eyes appeared and surrounded the hedgehog in multiple layers. This time, it likely intends to strike an attack.
Past, present, future. Seeing through all of them, it intends to unleash an unavoidable blow.
The hedgehog continues to accumulate power without concern.
The woman greatly swung back her arm. A god does not need a stance for an attack, but there are those who find meaning in such movements. This woman is probably the type who feels that doing so increases the power.
Quietly, power fills the space between the two.
Just before that power collides and bursts
It came abruptly.
A divine presence that had not existed until now.
Such a thing filled the surroundings, and then disappeared.
It was like a wave.
No
The attack does not go to the past or the future.
What is meant is that the woman sees the past, present, and future, and based on that, she launches an unavoidable attack.
It's about seeing the past and future. A combination of Precognition and Retrocognition
As the character knows what will happen by using this, they can make an unavoidable attack that takes into consideration all countermeasures
Retrocognition is the ability to perceive events that have transpired in the past. The working of this ability generally varies depending upon the user and the verse. The ability may or may not have a limit i.e a character may only be able to view or perceive events from a specific period of...
Precognition is the ability to know the future. Characters with this ability can, through varying means, accurately predict future events. Said means fall under two main categories: Divination, in which a user acquires impossible knowledge of upcoming events by looking into the future itself...
Alright, he can translate that, but do you think that will actually change anything?
As shown in the same chapter, the gods are capable of directing temporal attacks through time itself, and this alone is sufficient to grant them immeasurable speed—specifically in terms of attack speed.
They aren't directing their own attacks as in "the attack happens in the present but travels to the past". They are directly manipulating the past. That's the difference between Immeasurable speed and causality Manipulation.
The hedgehog was able to evade any attack due to his speed, and because of this, the gods decided to launch a comprehensive attack across the entirety of history so that it could not be avoided.
This attack perceives the past, present, and future, and it is impossible to evade because it sees everything. Evasion of any kind would not work; therefore, regardless of how fast you are—whether immeasurable or otherwise—you would not be able to avoid this attack. The text explicitly states that evasion is impossible; attempting to evade is futile. This means that anything related to speed, regardless of its level, would fail to allow escape, because the attack encompasses all of history.
No matter what you do or say, you cannot change this fact—especially the fact that evasion has become fundamentally impossible. This demonstrates that the attack covers the entirety of history, which is what forced the hedgehog to gather all of his power just to confront it directly, since attempting to evade it across all of history had become impossible.
This is more like "I see all the past, present and future, so I can see all countermeasures my opponent can take, so I make an attack that he wouldn't be able to counter against".
For example if my opponent could turn left and dodge, I can make the attack go left. If he can dodge right I can make the attack go right when needed. If he can do both then I'll make the attack wider so he can't dodge left and right. Then to him it would be an unavoidable attack.
And just like that, step by step, you take into consideration all attacks and make it so that the opponent just can't dodge it. It's as simple as that.
Past, present, future. Seeing through all of them, it intends to unleash an unavoidable blow.
It doesn't "cover all of history", it's just a super advancly prepared attack that has already taken into consideration everything the enemy can do to dodge it, and then made in a way that it can't be dodged.
They aren't directing their own attacks as in "the attack happens in the present but travels to the past". They are directly manipulating the past. That's the difference between Immeasurable speed and causality Manipulation.
No, it was not due to his speed. The translation specifically says:
Why are you so hellbent on speed when it literally says "manipulation"?
This is more like "I see all the past, present and future, so I can see all countermeasures my opponent can take, so I make an attack that he wouldn't be able to counter against".
For example if my opponent could turn left and dodge, I can make the attack go left. If he can dodge right I can make the attack go right when needed. If he can do both then I'll make the attack wider so he can't dodge left and right. Then to him it would be an unavoidable attack.
And just like that, step by step, you take into consideration all attacks and make it so that the opponent just can't dodge it. It's as simple as that.
It doesn't "cover all of history", it's just a super advancly prepared attack that has already taken into consideration everything the enemy can do to dodge it, and then made in a way that it can't be dodged.
I do not agree with you regarding the gods. The text says it is an attack, not manipulation. If you are denying what is stated in the actual texts themselves, that means you simply do not want to be convinced.
The text makes it clear that the gods can direct an attack into the past or into any point in time across all of history in such a way that the attack cannot be avoided at all. This is what makes the speed of the attack, at this point, immeasurable. Even a character with immeasurable speed would not be able to evade an attack that spans across history itself. Even if it is merely a matter of perception, everything within that perception range, all possible outcomes, and all temporal points are included. Therefore, regardless of how fast a character is across history, they would not be able to evade the attack.
I do not agree with you regarding the gods. The text says it is an attack, not manipulation. If you are denying what is stated in the actual texts themselves, that means you simply do not want to be convinced.
Attacks don't always have to be sword swings or the like. Even me manipulating the enemy's soul without coming in contact with them is considered an "attack".
It would only qualify for attack speed if said attack travels from Point 1 in time to point 2. But here it's direclty occuring in Point 3 from the beginning. Attacks can be of either case 1 or case 2, but only case 1 has anything to do with speed.
If for example, I cast a fire ball spell and shoot it at the enemy, and it bits and burns them. That's qualifiable to have an attack speed. If I just manipulate the laws such that my enemy has a status effect of burn added to them, that's hax, not speed.
I'm not ignoring anything, I'm literally quoting the text in front of you and even bolding the word I'm referring to, and you ignore that again and again.
The text makes it clear that the gods can direct an attack into the past or into any point in time across all of history in such a way that the attack cannot be avoided at all.
"Directing an attack" wherein, means they direclty just manipulate their opponent's being at that point in time, rather than making an attack that actually travels a distance, temporal or spatial.
That attack, which forcibly rewrites an already determined event, was dealt with by the Hedgehog by manipulating its own self further in the past.
This is what makes the speed of the attack, at this point, immeasurable. Even a character with immeasurable speed would not be able to evade an attack that spans across history itself.
Once again there's literally no proof that it "spawns across history" itself. Quote the part of the scan that says "spawns" and not "sees" -_-
You're lying to our faces at this point. I literally bolded the scan in front of you and it says "sees" all history. I even gave an analogy explaining what it is, you did not refute it, only deny it with additional points.
It's like trying to refute "Takimiya is the tallest person in class" with "Takimiya is a boy/he likes chocolate/he speaks English.... Etc etc"
In other words, you're trying to refute the point with more points. And those points not just have any relation to the argument, they are also false in themselves".
Even if it is merely a matter of perception, everything within that perception range, all possible outcomes, and all temporal points are included. Therefore, regardless of how fast a character is across history, they would not be able to evade the attack.
Once again, it's not about being fast, but about taking into account countermeasures. If my enemy does that to me thinking I have hypersonic speed, but I actually FTL speed, I can blitz all his counter measures and everything else.
Attacks don't always have to be sword swings or the like. Even me manipulating the enemy's soul without coming in contact with them is considered an "attack".
It would only qualify for attack speed if said attack travels from Point 1 in time to point 2. But here it's direclty occuring in Point 3 from the beginning. Attacks can be of either case 1 or case 2, but only case 1 has anything to do with speed.
If for example, I cast a fire ball spell and shoot it at the enemy, and it bits and burns them. That's qualifiable to have an attack speed. If I just manipulate the laws such that my enemy has a status effect of burn added to them, that's hax, not speed.
I'm not ignoring anything, I'm literally quoting the text in front of you and even bolding the word I'm referring to, and you ignore that again and again.
"Directing an attack" wherein, means they direclty just manipulate their opponent's being at that point in time, rather than making an attack that actually travels a distance, temporal or spatial.
Have you never thought what Causality Manipulation is?
Once again there's literally no proof that it "spawns across history" itself. Quote the part of the scan that says "spawns" and not "sees" -_-
You're lying to our faces at this point. I literally bolded the scan in front of you and it says "sees" all history. I even gave an analogy explaining what it is, you did not refute it, only deny it with additional points.
It's like trying to refute "Takimiya is the tallest person in class" with "Takimiya is a boy/he likes chocolate/he speaks English.... Etc etc"
In other words, you're trying to refute the point with more points. And those points not just have any relation to the argument, they are also false in themselves".
Once again, it's not about being fast, but about taking into account countermeasures. If my enemy does that to me thinking I have hypersonic speed, but I actually FTL speed, I can blitz all his counter measures and everything else.
There is still further evidence that the gods would possess immeasurable speed as well.
Take a look at this ↓
It’s not like he intended to hit Yogiri with it, so he throws it in a random direction. Then, it disappears in midair and flies towards the past.
It travels back to Yogiri’s past, aiming to pierce his helpless and innocent body when he was still a newborn baby.
With that, the Yogiri that existed till this day will become non-existent.
Only Yoshifumi, who used the Wandering Edge, will have the awareness of the situation before the alteration.
For the rest, it’d become as if there was no such thing as Yogiri Takato from the very beginning.
In such an event, various contradictions arise due to the disappearance of one person, but in the end, it will all make sense. It seems that space-time has the ability to restore itself, and other elements are used to make up for the missing parts.
Yoshifumi immediately felt something odd.
If the past was to be changed, the effect would take place the moment he threw it. It was only natural, but even though a few seconds had passed since he threw it, Yogiri was still standing in front of him.
And, no matter how many seconds passed, no change happened at all.
As you can see, this person is not even at the level of the gods—just a random individual—yet they threw an attack that moved into the past itself. It was launched from the present and traveled into the past to kill Yogiri when he was a child, thereby affecting him in the present. This would qualify as immeasurable attack speed, since the attack originated in the present and moved into the past to kill Yogiri as a child.
The gods are quasi-omnipotent and omniscient; if an ordinary person can do this, then the gods—being far superior to all humans—should logically be capable of it as well.
