Major rework for our favorite yogiri and ueg

[Maniaunavailable]

What's the new rule? Could someone please clarify this for me?"

Instant Death Verse Discussion Rules (Accepted)

Discussion Rules on the Instant Death Verse Permission from @Oblivion_Of_The_Endless I really didn't want to do this but after typing out an unnecessary rebuttal for almost an hour I feel like someone had to do this. So here goes nothing; Firstly the verse is deemed controversial and rightfully...

vsbattles.com

 

[Mythic381]

What's the new rule? Could someone please clarify this for me?"

Any new CRT centred around addition of previously rejected abilities must contain a link to the previous CRT where it was rejected, furthermore the OP must be self sufficient in addressing the reasoning behind the rejection, if it fails to address the logic behind the removal then the thread is liable to be removed under a moderators discretion however it can still be opened at a later point in time if the OP is adequately edited to meet the above requirements.

 

[SkyBlade6635]

That seems reasonable to me

 

[Azertyhuuh]

Instant Death Verse Discussion Rules (Accepted)

Discussion Rules on the Instant Death Verse Permission from @Oblivion_Of_The_Endless I really didn't want to do this but after typing out an unnecessary rebuttal for almost an hour I feel like someone had to do this. So here goes nothing; Firstly the verse is deemed controversial and rightfully...

vsbattles.com

Yes, this applies to threads that will be opened from now on.

 

[Cipher72]

That

What's left in the OP ? Can you summarise stuff that UMR hasn't rejected yet ?

 

[SkyBlade6635]

What's left in the OP ? Can you summarise stuff that UMR hasn't rejected yet ?

I'm just waiting for Oblivion to check my arguments regarding plot manipulation immunity. He/she asked me to send my arguments, and I just sent them right above

 

[SkyBlade6635]

What's left in the OP ? Can you summarise stuff that UMR hasn't rejected yet ?

Also, there are some points that haven't been invalidated, like Law Manipulation. Oblivion mentioned it's on the current profile, but I can't find it listed as such; it was used more as an argument for Immortality Negation. So, Law Manipulation is still in play. The same goes for AC1 (Acausality Type 1) / Immunity to past attacks, which was rejected in favor of Automatic Defense

 

[SkyBlade6635]

Bump

 

[Ruler_Star_Kuma]

Also, there are some points that haven't been invalidated, like Law Manipulation. Oblivion mentioned it's on the current profile, but I can't find it listed as such;

It's ON THE PROFILE, use the search/find in page function even

it was used more as an argument for Immortality Negation. So, Law Manipulation is still in play. The same goes for AC1 (Acausality Type 1) / Immunity to past attacks, which was rejected in favor of Automatic Defense

Aca 1 has no basis to even exist still within the literal argument itself though, and IMMUNITY is never happening

 

[Cipher72]

Also, there are some points that haven't been invalidated, like Law Manipulation. Oblivion mentioned it's on the current profile, but I can't find it listed as such; it was used more as an argument for Immortality Negation

"Subjective Reality & Law Manipulation (What dies and what phenomenon occurs, all of it relies on Yogiri’s perception/cognition of death. If there is something that contradicts his perception, then it simply doesn't happen.[43][44][45] Killed Another Kingdom and all of its rules.[46] Upon entering the dreamworld of Mitsuki, a rule had been placed so that anyone killed by Yogiri can't be brought back to life[37])
Deconstruction (Can kill poison gas on a chemical level[47][48])"

Here
I will get to AC-1 and rest later but can you quickly tell me what's left in total or is it just AC-1 ?

It's ON THE PROFILE, use the search function even

Chill Kuma Kuma
Maybe they are not familiar with scrollable tabbers

 

[Ruler_Star_Kuma]

Chill Kuma Kuma
Maybe they are not familiar with scrollable tabbers

Don't even act like this isn't a pain in the side like the most annoying thorn possible..

 

[Mizuki67]

Unfortunately i am with oblivion here hard disagree with NEP 2

 

[SkyBlade6635]

It's ON THE PROFILE, use the search/find in page function even

Aca 1 has no basis to even exist still within the literal argument itself though, and IMMUNITY is never happening

Yeah, I know Acausality doesn't work since the attack couldn't affect Yogiri in the past due to his homeostasis with his True Form (TF). Oblivion already explained why the immunity doesn't apply; however, he believes it can be added to his Automatic Defense section. So, we can add: 'including attacks originating from the past

 

[SkyBlade6635]

Here
I will get to AC-1 and rest later but can you quickly tell me what's left in total or is it just AC-1 ?

Chill Kuma Kuma
Maybe they are not familiar with scrollable tabbers

Yes, exactly. My VSBW account was created recently.

 

[Azertyhuuh]

Also, there are some points that haven't been invalidated, like Law Manipulation. Oblivion mentioned it's on the current profile, but I can't find it listed as such; it was used more as an argument for Immortality Negation. So, Law Manipulation is still in play. The same goes for AC1 (Acausality Type 1) / Immunity to past attacks, which was rejected in favor of Automatic Defense

They should have Type 1 Acausality.

In Instant Death, all characters are immune to past manipulation, and they should all possess Type 1 Acausality, because any alteration of the past in any form leads to paradoxes and timeline splits, and it would not affect characters in the future.

Yes, I still consider Type 1 Acausality to be logically valid due to the temporal paradoxes that occur with any change to the past. As for the blade that was used by that individual, it was able to negate Type 1 Acausality by cancelling and preventing the occurrence of these paradoxes, and by attempting to correct and adjust spacetime and everything in order to reach the same outcome in the same future.

Evidence ↓

A single person disappearing could create all sorts of paradoxes, but
things would work out to be consistent in the end. The weapon had the ability
to restore damaged space-time, so it could use other elements to make up for
the hole it created.

 

[SkyBlade6635]

will get to AC-1 and rest later but can you quickly tell me what's left in total or is it just AC-1 ?

"As I already mentioned, only Law Manipulation was left, but since it's already on the profile, I'm just waiting for my requests regarding Plot Manipulation immunity to be reviewed. Oblivion rejected it at first glance, given that it had already been debunked in another thread, but since I argued it differently, he/she asked me for the arguments I used, which I sent just above

 

[SkyBlade6635]

They should have Type 1 Acausality.

In Instant Death, all characters are immune to past manipulation, and they should all possess Type 1 Acausality, because any alteration of the past in any form leads to paradoxes and timeline splits, and it would not affect characters in the future.

Yes, I still consider Type 1 Acausality to be logically valid due to the temporal paradoxes that occur with any change to the past. As for the blade that was used by that individual, it was able to negate Type 1 Acausality by cancelling and preventing the occurrence of these paradoxes, and by attempting to correct and adjust spacetime and everything in order to reach the same outcome in the same future.

Evidence ↓

The problem is that Type 1 Acausality is a cause-and-effect relationship between the past and the present. Logically, for a character to obtain it, there must be no causal link between their past and present selves—for example, if a character is wounded or killed in the past, it would have no effect on them in the present. In Yogiri's case, since it's been a while since I read the LN, I forgot that the attack didn't reach him due to his homeostasis with his TF (True Form). Regarding immunity, it’s possible, as immunity here means the character is immune to any attack coming from the past; however, it depends on the automation and how it functions. Since in Yogiri's case the attack is nullified via his TF, it would be more accurate to consider it an Automatic Defense. Therefore, by default, we can add to his section: {Automatic Defense 'including attacks coming from the past due to his homeostasis with his TF, which protects him from all harm'}.

 

[Cipher72]

Yeah, I know Acausality doesn't work since the attack couldn't affect Yogiri in the past due to his homeostasis with his True Form (TF). Oblivion already explained why the immunity doesn't apply; however, he believes it can be added to his Automatic Defense section. So, we can add: 'including attacks originating from the past

Yes you can cite a note stating that his Automatic defence can stop attacks from the past, I assume something like Limited Time Travel Negation works maybe (it's not technically a negation) but yea so
Acausality and Invulnerability has been addressed same with law ?
That leaves plot;

I’ll put this

This explicitly talks about Fate Value and scenario and not Plot

demonstrate this. It is stated here that Yogiri’s true form—that is, The End—is beyond fate and plot So this means that the End is above concepts such as fate and plot, and regarding fate, this has already been proven several times, notably against Aoi and against Yukimasa. So, broadly speaking, this whole section is like an anaphora/ repetition that reinforces the first part, so it’s a sort of rhetorical device to emphasise the true form of Yogiri, which should give Yogiri resistance to plot manipulation—or rather, immunity, given that the plot cannot even apply to him—so I think immunity is quite consistent

This is a mistranslation that has been addressed here
I will quote myself

In order to gain Resistance to Plot Manipulation one must demonstrate feats or at least have statements describing their inherent resistance to Plot Manipulation.
What the previous thread did wasn't merely removing the Resistance to Plot Manipulation but rather removing Plot as a fundamental metaphysical aspect from the verse.Like I said before ignorance isn't a bliss, I recommend reading the contents of a thread and not just the title.
Also I am not getting the whole “Umm actually I am arguing for Resistance and not Plot Manipulation” when the Resistance was the part that got nuked
TLDR; In order to get Resistance to Plot Manipulation Plot must be established as a fundamental metaphysical aspect.

Essentially

• Plot isn't an independent Metaphysical aspect
• There's no mention of Plot just scenario or Meta story which are brushed aside

The part you are using is a mistranslation

Chapter 22: I unintentionally ended up feeling moe
I have to run, I have to run, I have to run.
Only such things kept going around in my head. However, my body would not listen at all. Once I recognized that, I could not divert my consciousness away, and I was only continuously exposed to fear. That was a dead end. It was the destination where all fates arrive, and beyond that, there was nothing. The end of everything had taken the form of a human there. Precisely because it is the end, it is the one that stands until the very last. No one can go beyond it.
Against such a being, things like fate or scenario are not even worth being called nonsense. It is an existence for which even thinking about trying to fight is foolish.
Just by thinking that it wants to kill, the opponent dies.
When I first heard it, I thought, what nonsense. I thought it only looked that way because of the overwhelming difference in ability.
That ability probably has some sort of mechanism. If I analyze and examine it, I should be able to devise countermeasures, and if I make full use of Aoi’s ability, I thought it would somehow work out.
That is
a dead end.
The destination where all fates arrive beyond that point, there is nothing.

TL by our wiki TL member
Explanation by a knowledgeable staff member
So yea....
Do note that this gives him Resistance to Fate Manipulation though but no plot unfortunately if you have any queries ask me

 

[Robo432343]

Should this thread be closed…?

 

[Azertyhuuh]

The problem is that Type 1 Acausality is a cause-and-effect relationship between the past and the present. Logically, for a character to obtain it, there must be no causal link between their past and present selves—for example, if a character is wounded or killed in the past, it would have no effect on them in the present. In Yogiri's case, since it's been a while since I read the LN, I forgot that the attack didn't reach him due to his homeostasis with his TF (True Form). Regarding immunity, it’s possible, as immunity here means the character is immune to any attack coming from the past; however, it depends on the automation and how it functions. Since in Yogiri's case the attack is nullified via his TF, it would be more accurate to consider it an Automatic Defense. Therefore, by default, we can add to his section: {Automatic Defense 'including attacks coming from the past due to his homeostasis with his TF, which protects him from all harm'}.

Wrong.

You did not understand the argument, and this is a very well-known argument. Goku Black has it for the same reason I mentioned, and most characters do as well.

Type 1 Acausality refers to characters who are not affected by what happens to them in the past.

All characters would have Type 1 Acausality due to the temporal paradoxes that occur with any change to the past itself. Any alteration to the past does not apply to the present; instead, it only creates branching timelines, and paradoxes occur. This is what gives all characters immunity to changes in the past, because of these temporal paradoxes.

It does not matter if someone kills Yogiri, injures him, or affects any other character in the past, because that would not succeed in changing the future due to temporal paradoxes. Because of these paradoxes, characters gain Type 1 Acausality, since changes to the past do not affect them.

The person who attempted to attack Yogiri was carrying a knife capable of negating Type 1 Acausality—by cancelling and repairing spacetime itself, and preventing the paradoxes that would occur after altering the past—in order to ensure the desired outcome in the present. This is one of the knife’s abilities, and therefore it possesses Type 1 Acausality negation.

A single person disappearing could create all sorts of paradoxes, but
things would work out to be consistent in the end. The weapon had the ability
to restore damaged space-time, so it could use other elements to make up forthe hole it created.

 

[SkyBlade6635]

Here , here and hereThese are the arguments that had already been debunked in the other thread, according to what Oblivion told me, and the argument used was that the term 'plot' is represented metaphorically. Here are the arguments I put forward to show the inconsistency of the metaphor in this case.

 

[SkyBlade6635]

Yes you can cite a note stating that his Automatic defence can stop attacks from the past, I assume something like Limited Time Travel Negation works maybe (it's not technically a negation) but yea so
Acausality and Invulnerability has been addressed same with law ?
That leaves plot;
This explicitly talks about Fate Value and scenario and not Plot

This is a mistranslation that has been addressed here
I will quote myself

Essentially

• Plot isn't an independent Metaphysical aspect
• There's no mention of Plot just scenario or Meta story which are brushed aside

The part you are using is a mistranslation

TL by our wiki TL member
Explanation by a knowledgeable staff member
So yea....
Do note that this gives him Resistance to Fate Manipulation though but no plot unfortunately if you have any queries ask me

 

[SkyBlade6635]

Wrong.

You did not understand the argument, and this is a very well-known argument. Goku Black has it for the same reason I mentioned, and most characters do as well.

Type 1 Acausality refers to characters who are not affected by what happens to them in the past.

All characters would have Type 1 Acausality due to the temporal paradoxes that occur with any change to the past itself. Any alteration to the past does not apply to the present; instead, it only creates branching timelines, and paradoxes occur. This is what gives all characters immunity to changes in the past, because of these temporal paradoxes.

It does not matter if someone kills Yogiri, injures him, or affects any other character in the past, because that would not succeed in changing the future due to temporal paradoxes. Because of these paradoxes, characters gain Type 1 Acausality, since changes to the past do not affect them.

The person who attempted to attack Yogiri was carrying a knife capable of negating Type 1 Acausality—by cancelling and repairing spacetime itself, and preventing the paradoxes that would occur after altering the past—in order to ensure the desired outcome in the present. This is one of the knife’s abilities, and therefore it possesses Type 1 Acausality negation.

"I don't know what happened in Zamasu's case, but as I said, if the target in question wasn't affected, we can't establish a causal link here. The target would first need to be affected in the past; the cause must take place in the past, and the effect would simply be a consequence of that cause, logically manifesting in the present."
"All things considered, I think Automatic Defense isn't a bad option either, since his connection to his True Form ensures that no attack reaches him. But if you're still pushing for AC1, let's wait and see what the mods have to say about it

 

[SkyBlade6635]

Wrong.

You did not understand the argument, and this is a very well-known argument. Goku Black has it for the same reason I mentioned, and most characters do as well.

Type 1 Acausality refers to characters who are not affected by what happens to them in the past.

All characters would have Type 1 Acausality due to the temporal paradoxes that occur with any change to the past itself. Any alteration to the past does not apply to the present; instead, it only creates branching timelines, and paradoxes occur. This is what gives all characters immunity to changes in the past, because of these temporal paradoxes.

It does not matter if someone kills Yogiri, injures him, or affects any other character in the past, because that would not succeed in changing the future due to temporal paradoxes. Because of these paradoxes, characters gain Type 1 Acausality, since changes to the past do not affect them.

The person who attempted to attack Yogiri was carrying a knife capable of negating Type 1 Acausality—by cancelling and repairing spacetime itself, and preventing the paradoxes that would occur after altering the past—in order to ensure the desired outcome in the present. This is one of the knife’s abilities, and therefore it possesses Type 1 Acausality negation.

"I forgot to mention, your request has been fulfilled; I added AC5 to the post a long time ago, so you can defend that point now.

 

[Cipher72]

Here are the arguments I put forward to show the inconsistency of the metaphor in this case.

Not linking anything, can you cite what you linked. Also this isn't discord refrain from commenting multiple times within a short span. You can adress multiple arguments from different individuals in one compactified comment, otherwise you will clog up the thread.

 

[Maniaunavailable]

can I ask here what was the reasoning on removing high godly? I dont find the thread

 

[Cipher72]

can I ask here what was the reasoning on removing high godly? I dont find the thread

High and Mid

 

[SkyBlade6635]

Not linking anything, can you cite what you linked. Also this isn't discord refrain from commenting multiple times within a short span. You can adress multiple arguments from different individuals in one compactified comment, otherwise you will clog up the thread.

Here , here and here

 

[Hecky2222]

Here , here and here

Btw you can simply quote your oldest comments like this instead of putting hardwork and converting everything to imgur again and again.

Just like he does with ID

 

[Azertyhuuh]

I think this thread should be closed. It’s very chaotic, and in my opinion the arguments are not good. Also, discussing several important topics like NEP 1, NEP 2, acausality, regeneration, and similar matters in a single thread is not appropriate. The arguments are not sufficient for any of these points.

I have been working on all of these matters for a long time, and I will publish my work in about a month. Therefore, I ask the staff to close this thread. Anyone who wants to post anything about instant death should first ask for my permission, since I am the one who started working on this and I have a good understanding of what is valid, what is not, and what is worth discussing.

 

[Hecky2222]

Anyone who wants to post anything about instant death should first ask for my permission, since I am the one who started working on this and I have a good understanding of what is valid, what is not, and what is worth discussing.

Aura

Btw can I add causality manipulation to Hedgehog page

 

[SkyBlade6635]

Btw you can simply quote your oldest comments like this instead of putting hardwork and converting everything to imgur again and again.

Yeah, you're right. Anyway, I'm still getting used to using this app