Killerdrone123
He/Him- 2,767
- 2,844
Yes
-
This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.
For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here. -
We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.
Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.
Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page. -
Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.
CC Goku vs Dante
- Thread starter Tuxidoe_Redo
- Start date
- Status
- 206
- 110
Yeah I got Goku beyond neg diff.
Honestly sdbh cosmology needs a crt immediately it's current status is a disgrace.
Mbpoops
He/Him- 8,641
- 7,922
- 1,897
- 1,546
- 206
- 110
Expanding to just db over all, I find it hilarious that dbs Goku is only considered 2c on vsbw. Y'all ought to push for l1c already
- 1,343
- 1,071
- 693
- 180
- Thread starter
- #87
Is that you Red?
- 10,487
- 4,136
The argument is that Dante has more layers so his soul/concept is not getting destroyed... Or rather was seeing as Goku's resistance negation involves concept stuff.
Yeah resistance negation is fair game, it won't matter because Goku will die to the passives.
Also layers of conceptual fuckery too.
Goku will already be dead and whatever chance for resurrection/regeneration negated, time power isn't stopping Dante's regen negg layers
Not really, both can **** the other with the passive hax. Dante kinda has the chance of his soul making it back since Nelo/Vergil is a thing
IF speed was unequal then Goku would dodge the passives. That's why in this match with equal speed, even if Dante wins because of his passive hax, the match won't be valid or allowed to be in the profiles.
Yes, even with speed equal it is accepted that Goku gets the benefit of moving through time because he has immeasurable speed. Dodging passives with speed equal isn't accepted tho.
Aside from all that, changing Goku to any other version means Dante stomps (with speed equal), keeping the match as it currently is makes it as fair as possible and in this case both of them die. I can't be added cuz you know, speed, but it is what it is.
Killerdrone123
He/Him- 2,767
- 2,844
Goku's passive would be hitting dante first as he has immeasurable speed preety much refer to this quote from qaw even in speed equal setting immeasurable speed characters would still hold advantage of being first not to mention CC Goku has passive t.p powernull so he would be nullifying preety much all of Dante's passive haxs as t.p resistance negation would make Dante layers of resistance to power nullification moot
Also I don't know why you are ignoring the fact that Goku himself has passive haxs and it's Goku who is fast here not dante
As mentioned above Dante would be erased before he can even do anything to Goku including his soul on conceptual/info 2/history level
- 10,487
- 4,136
I see. I didn't know immeasurable would allow someone passive hax to go off first. In that case I can't say much.
If you carefully read the post you quoted above you will notice that I wasn't ignoring his passives, I was saying both would die. Just that Dante, by feats, had the chance to come back eventually.
The one relevant is conceptual since Dante depends on his concept to exist but can come back from total destruction, change and all that even if it gets negated as seen with Nelo Angelo/Vergil, granted it will take a long ass time but now that Goku's passive hax will go off first then that's moot.
- 14,993
- 10,412
How does immeasurable speed allow you to dodge aura?? It’s not like it’s a projectile or anything
- 586
- 498
Are you ragebaiting? Aura would technically be a projectile since it’s something that typically travels unless stated otherwise. It acts as weapon, similarly to a missile which is considered a projectile. An immeasurable speed character can traverse through time through raw speed alone, they should have no issues evading aura, in fact by definition they would’ve technically evaded it before it has been activated. Especially if the aura’s travel speed is finite in comparison.
I’m not sure why the other metaphysical aspects are seen as ineffective? Has there been some new standard or something that has changed this? This seems like NLF. I’m not sure why we should be under the direct assumption that X for instance can exist as a soul when Y has erased them narratively. Since they’re lacking narrative they logically shouldn’t be able to exist as soul unless there’s inverse extrapolation and backing that they can. The Wiki has always been reliant on indexing and inverse mechanics/statement and to be brutally honest I’ve never seen such a standard.
It’s like equalising two opposing energy systems or frameworks. They have no synergy or similar ties so they cannot be equalised. In this scenario, it’s more so complexity and abstraction IG which a DMC supporter even stated, can’t be equalised. I get the Soul being > Concepts but that doesn’t give you automatic or ensured regeneration/resurrection from Time Power EE, Power of destruction EE and Universe Tree EE. Demon energy, TP, UT and P.O.D are metaphysically incomparable.
DBH also has NPI in which they can interact with more things such as Evil, Data, Causality, Mind & Consciousness, Space Time, Chaos, Soul, Mind, Body, Energy and more. This includes also being able to erase these said features. It would even be NLF to say Dante could theoretically comprehend what he’s hit with when he can’t for what I said above. But yeah, the main factors here are EE, passives, immeasurable speed shenanigans and resistance negation there’s possibly a few others but these are the bigger components.
Are there any other arguments to be made? If not then I think this should be closed because I think everything has been cleared.
Existence Erasure (Passive & Active - History & Space-Time [6-D], Information[Type 2] & Concept [Type 1]
Nonexistence Erasure (Passive & Active - Nature Types 1 & 2, Aspect Types 2 [Concept] & 5 [Other: History, Space-Time, Causality, Fate, Probability, Law & Logic]
- 14,993
- 10,412
no i mean the type of aura that make you go insane just by looking at the character
there is no projectile there
a guy with immeasurable speed has to look at the character to fight
- 586
- 498
Oh my fault. Yeah it wouldn’t be a projectile. Technically it doesn’t have to travel since it’s a passive and most passives are inherently infinite in speed but it doesn’t change much of what I said. Immeasurable speed is moving beyond linear time, MASSIVELY dwarfing infinite speed. An accurate depiction of immeasurable speed vs infinite speed would be the immeasurable speed character viewing an infinite speed character as frozen. While it wouldn’t necessarily be dodging, it would be anticipating in the context of immeasurable speed character knowing he’s going to be inflicted with something deadly (assuming he has informational analysis or prior knowledge). In simpler words, the immeasurable speed character would know to flee madness aura range before the battle and passive has even activated. Also the looking part is very, idk. Would madness aura even register if the immeasurable speed target is moving before his sensors can even comprehend them? They’re basically frozen in time.
- 15,317
- 22,636
Who is that?
Layer doesn't matter, Goku, or rather Time Power resistance neg applies to all resistances that Time Power users possesses which including stuff like concept resistance
As above, his resistance neg applies to regeneration negation resistance
1. Time Power can interact with Soul
2. Assume point is false. Resistance neg applies to regeneration negation resistance
There is also history and information type 2 erasure, history erasure just retroactively erase Dante across time to the point he never even exist in the first place, it can erase even the events leading to his birth and his mother to make it like he never even born, no more Dante's soul...
TheTenno07
He/Him- 519
- 309
goku fkr (for killer's reasons)
- 1,897
- 1,546
I read that as Goku ******
- 693
- 180
- Thread starter
- #98
UnofficiallyRed, he's dripsauce's friend. Thought it was him as similar personalityWho is that?
Tanin_iver
He/Him- 1,066
- 904
I almost forgot about this thread.
From what I can see with newer arguments, the two temporal dimensions and immeasurable speed would be more versatile and allow Goku's passives to erase from a higher temporal perspective that Dantes Acausality can't resist
Ehh, no. It's more like Haecceity(who-ness/this-ness) > Quiddity(what-ness)
My apologies for oversimplifying, my comment was more towards elaborating that they are based on different abilities.
- 864
- 418
Qawsed mentioned that having multiple temporal dimensions doesn't make your immeasurable faster than the lower ones.
Does destroying a hypertimeline with aoe attack grants 1 layer of immeasurable speed?
If yes, would it mean in a crossverse scenario, another L1C character (presumably that effects a 4D + 1D structure with their own aoe attack) unable to effect a 3D + 2D structure as they need 1 layer of immeasurable attack speed to do so?
- 1,010
- 547
I don’t think higher temporal dimensions actually make you faster yeah, It’s more like you’re operating on a higher level of time. If someone can move through more than one temporal axis, they can treat what someone on a lower axis is doing as already set.Qawsed mentioned that having multiple temporal dimensions doesn't make your immeasurable faster than the lower ones.
Does destroying a hypertimeline with aoe attack grants 1 layer of immeasurable speed?
If yes, would it mean in a crossverse scenario, another L1C character (presumably that effects a 4D + 1D structure with their own aoe attack) unable to effect a 3D + 2D structure as they need 1 layer of immeasurable attack speed to do so?vsbattles.com
Like if A goes 5 seconds into the past, B can just move through a higher time axis to a point before A even made that move. So B can hit A before it even happens, not because B is faster, but because they’re acting from a higher temporal perspective.
So it behaves somewhat like a speed advantage.
Explanation from DT:
- 586
- 498
IIRC Qawsed actually referred to that in the Goku vs Kratos thread too. It pertains more to time travelling which is within Goku’s kit and he does actively use it. Well I think that’s my perspective and interpretation of it, I could be wrong. But yeah Goku’s higher temporal speed still holds up, this should probably be closed since no new arguments have been made.
- 1,010
- 547
It more so pertains to a higher temporal perspective, so in this instance.
The Character A immeasurable speed is just a static snapshot or a fixed sequence in the perspective of Character B who operates on a higher temporal perspective.
The Character A immeasurable speed is just a static snapshot or a fixed sequence in the perspective of Character B who operates on a higher temporal perspective.
I thought so yeah its better to close this off rather than dwell on it for too long.
Tanin_iver
He/Him- 1,066
- 904
Yeah, I know and I didn't say Goku is faster because of two temporal dimensions. Goku is faster because he has immeasurable (which means he can time travel even in SBA) while Dante will scale to infinite with the current CRT. So Goku could theoretically hit his passives in the past. And tho Dante has Acausality it's limited to one temporal dimension so with two temporal dimensions I am assuming Dante's Acausality shouldn't cover. However if we're to assume he does resist then Dante might stomp.Qawsed mentioned that having multiple temporal dimensions doesn't make your immeasurable faster than the lower ones.
Does destroying a hypertimeline with aoe attack grants 1 layer of immeasurable speed?
If yes, would it mean in a crossverse scenario, another L1C character (presumably that effects a 4D + 1D structure with their own aoe attack) unable to effect a 3D + 2D structure as they need 1 layer of immeasurable attack speed to do so?
- 15,317
- 22,636
The amount of temporal dimensions have nothing to do with Acausality, where did you guys get all those ideas from?
- 15,524
- 4,503
Kratos vs Goku match mentioned somewhere there
- 15,317
- 22,636
What?
- 864
- 418
I think they referring to Qawsed.What?
- 693
- 180
- Thread starter
- #110
So Dante supporters giving up on this?
Tanin_iver
He/Him- 1,066
- 904
Wait, this thread still going?
I think it was generally understood that Goku's passives hit first. And about the temporal dimensions, tbh it isn't specified in the wiki clearly. So like if you count time power is more potent due to two temporal dimensions and bypass Dante's Acausality then Goku stomps, else Dante stomps due to higher layers.
So I am not sure this can be indexed in profiles as it can be argued to be stomp for either side.
This is only for now and can change due to clarifications regarding standards or new revisions for the characters obviously.
- 693
- 180
- Thread starter
- #112
Ignoring passives Goku has information manipulation which Dante doesn't have
Tanin_iver
He/Him- 1,066
- 904
It's like arguing Quantum level matter manip being argued to hax souls.
Soul deeper than Concept was already accepted and the DB supporters decided to argue that TP is deeper too than info hax so we equalized their level for the match as was acknowledged in previous posts.
- 586
- 498
Since this battle has already been concluded I don’t think there’s any more reason to argue. This could be revisited in the far future, assuming both characters have received game changing upgrades, respectfully.
What I’m not understanding is why Goku’s info hax is seen as ineffective? Don’t get me wrong, as I stated formerly, I’m all for the equalisation as long as it’s to an extent. I just don’t think Souls being a superior metaphysical aspect to Concepts = Souls being superior to info. Information as an aspect doesn’t exist in the DMC universe but you’re free to correct me if I’m wrong since I’m not well versed. In this case, it’d be treated as =\= not = or >
At the end of the day, verses don’t just acquire knowledge of metaphysical aspects, superiority or even resistance on the whim like that. There needs to be in depth extrapolation, otherwise it seems heavily NLF to justify otherwise. Dante would be equally effected with information manipulation 2 hax as he would be with some of Goku’s other passives. Plus, superiority isn’t always seen as being resistant or immune. Superiority can also be depicted in a way which even the superior ability or whatnot can still be overcome by something insignificant. Not that it’s the ability’s flaw, rather A’s due to lacking resistance, it might not be the best example but the point I want to get across is that this is very contextual. It also doesn’t help that this is an indexing wiki, it’s not the type of wiki that just allows for suddenness whenever. I mean, we could go down this route but it would feel more like a F&G more than an actual viable MU.
That was my two cents and I do think this should probably be closed ngl
Yeah, DMC souls are seen as being superior compared to concepts, this was expressed many times and I think I can agree with that inverse reasoning. As for TP which is essentially time, yeah, we follow similar reasoning that symbolises Time > every present metaphysical aspect in the DBH cosmos. While there is similarity in that regard, we still need to be aware that these are two contrasting frameworks that still contain too much diversity that even verse equalisation can’t account for.
What I’m not understanding is why Goku’s info hax is seen as ineffective? Don’t get me wrong, as I stated formerly, I’m all for the equalisation as long as it’s to an extent. I just don’t think Souls being a superior metaphysical aspect to Concepts = Souls being superior to info. Information as an aspect doesn’t exist in the DMC universe but you’re free to correct me if I’m wrong since I’m not well versed. In this case, it’d be treated as =\= not = or >
At the end of the day, verses don’t just acquire knowledge of metaphysical aspects, superiority or even resistance on the whim like that. There needs to be in depth extrapolation, otherwise it seems heavily NLF to justify otherwise. Dante would be equally effected with information manipulation 2 hax as he would be with some of Goku’s other passives. Plus, superiority isn’t always seen as being resistant or immune. Superiority can also be depicted in a way which even the superior ability or whatnot can still be overcome by something insignificant. Not that it’s the ability’s flaw, rather A’s due to lacking resistance, it might not be the best example but the point I want to get across is that this is very contextual. It also doesn’t help that this is an indexing wiki, it’s not the type of wiki that just allows for suddenness whenever. I mean, we could go down this route but it would feel more like a F&G more than an actual viable MU.
Yeah I agree the temporal dimension stuff is quite jarring due to not clear enough explanation. I actually was present in a conversation where Qawsed had explained it and it seems like the whole gimmick of higher temporal dimensions affecting speed has to do with inverse terminology which DBH does have due to the 2nd temporal dimension governing the first. (I was asked to give my opinion here).
That was my two cents and I do think this should probably be closed ngl
Tanin_iver
He/Him- 1,066
- 904
One is History/Time and other is kinda equivalent to deeper level of Haecceity
But for the sake of the argument in the previous posts people have equalised it to continue the match so whatever.
I kinda elaborated that in another thread prior too. But it seems like it wasn't understood there either.
DB does clarify that the info stuff is from Ziku World, which is part of the reality and governing it. Info hax obviously can't affect something more fundamental and deeper than it like Type 1 Concepts which are independent of Reality let alone TP which you are arguing to be even deeper. Same way Soul is deeper than Type 1 Concept in DMC which we are also clarified.
So it makes about as much sense as the analogy of Matter Hax affecting souls or heck Concepts both of which are immaterial and metaphysical in comparison to physics based hax.
I hope this clarifies.
Now obviously, if we had nothing to compare between the aspects it would be completely indeterminate.
- 864
- 418
I'm pretty sure soul being deeper than concepts already has been debunked by Vieth. It just makes souls immunity to CM destruction but not getting their other aspects destroyed.
- 586
- 498
That’s pretty much what my comment entails and to be fair I’m starting to get lost on what’s true and what’s not true. I did make this QnA thread with the intent of someone helping me understand but it didn’t gain much traction and there were only two answers. But assuming Hecky’s comment was true which I’m unsure of, Dante would need AE1 to have some sort of defensive advantage over info erasure. I’m not too sure though, maybe we need some mod input or something
vsbattles.com
Metaphysical aspects, erasure and survivability.
I feel like this is really self explanatory but just for the sake of not spewing misinformation I have a question. X’s verse only has extrapolation of the mind being a metaphysical aspect, as it does with type 1 concepts. The mind is treated as metaphysically superior and X has HGR which are...
- 1,897
- 1,546
Which is where he is wrong because Names assist soul directly as we seen with Demons barely moving around when their names were erased except for some really rare cases like Nobodies whose kind were never given a name from the very beginning and they function just fine.
It's a far cry from just another aspect — it's designed to partake with one's very essence, fundamentally speaking.
Last edited:
- 10,487
- 4,136
why are yall bumping a settled match?
Soul > concept is just layers
the whole reason Dante loses is that time power has resistance negation which basically means Dante's layers are irrelevant
Goku passives hit first cuz immeasurable
that's it
im unfollowing I don't want more notifications
Soul > concept is just layers
the whole reason Dante loses is that time power has resistance negation which basically means Dante's layers are irrelevant
Goku passives hit first cuz immeasurable
that's it
im unfollowing I don't want more notifications
- 2,938
- 2,318
Isn't Resistance Negation negating Layers NLF?
- Status
