Major rework for our favorite yogiri and ueg

[SkyBlade6635]

So hello everyone, as you can see, there’s going to be a rework of some of Yogiri’s abilities, starting with his Instant Death. First, let’s take a look at this
So here we see Yogiri (the Avatar version, of course) being attacked in the past (even killed), but his present-day self hasn’t been affected. This simply implies that there is no cause-and-effect relationship between his past self and his present self, which should grant Yogiri Type 1 acausality.

2) So here it’s very simple: I’ll put this and this So, through these two panels, we’re told that Yogiri’s (the Avatar’s) existence is protected by a meta-story, so normally any kind of plot manipulation shouldn’t affect Yogiri, but let’s continue. It’s already been shown several times that Yogiri (the Avatar) is in homeostasis with his True Form (the END) so normally Yogiri (the Avatar) cannot do anything that his True Form is not capable of doing, given that the Avatar is merely a manifestation. So let’s go and demonstrate this. It is stated here that Yogiri’s true form—that is, The End—is beyond fate and plot So this means that the End is above concepts such as fate and plot, and regarding fate, this has already been proven several times, notably against Aoi and against Yukimasa. So, broadly speaking, this whole section is like an anaphora/ repetition that reinforces the first part, so it’s a sort of rhetorical device to emphasise the true form of Yogiri, which should give Yogiri resistance to plot manipulation—or rather, immunity, given that the plot cannot even apply to him—so I think immunity is quite consistent
Consequently, Yogiri should also benefit from Type 2 acausality, given that not only does the manipulation of fate not affect him, but his future is also inaccessible because Aoi’s precognition didn’t work. Admittedly, his profile already includes resistance to the manipulation of fate, but it would be more consistent to apply Type 2 acausality for greater clarity
3) For this section, let’s look together at what the wiki (vsbw) says so the vsbw tells us that NEP 1 is material non-existence; in binary terms, this corresponds to 0 (non-existence), and the vsbw defines NEP 2 as idealistic non-existence, so the subject is neither 0 (non-existence) nor 1 (existence). However, the VSBW states that these kinds of beings may have a non-conventional existence, i.e. prior or opposite
Now that this is clear, let’s look at this [so here we have a situation/ an equation involving Yogiri and the Lord of Spectres, where Yogiri could not see this pseudo-being despite possessing NPI ability; Yogiri therefore had to assume the existence of this being in order to kill it; so here the being has no material existence, hence Type 1 NEP, but the being in question also has a non-conventional existence because it exists as an idea, so it has a form of idealistic existence, given that it is a hypothetical being, and basically a hypothetical being is one that exists as a hypothesis or an idea; this is therefore a form of Type 2 Nep. If we correlate this with the definition of VSBW, the wiki also specifies that this is a form of paraconsistent physiology, so obviously this is Type 2]( ) To help some people understand the situation properly, let’s take an example. Right now, I’m thinking of a being with three heads and four feet. Technically, this being is neither existent nor non-existent; it’s just an idea of mine. Its existence falls under another unconventional form, which is ‘the idea’ here, as the wiki clearly states. So it’s just a supposition (hypothesis) on my part; otherwise, the being with three heads and four feet does not exist. We can therefore call it a hypothetical being, and well, it is this type of being that our beloved Yoghurt has stumbled upon

4) Yogiri should be exempt from Type 6 immortality because he killed Iselda, who possesses parasitic immortality; indeed, she was able to switch bodies every time she was killed within a specific body, so she has Type 6 immortality, as the wiki clearly states [here is the relevant scan]( )

5) Upon entering Mitsuki’s dream world, a law was imposed stipulating that anyone killed by Yogiri cannot return to life [here]( ), so Yogiri should benefit from Law Manipulation

6) Yogiri’s true form should also benefit from physiological non-existence, given that his true form, ‘The End’, represents non-existence—where existence and non-existence

So nep 1 for true form yogiri

7) Now this part will be crucial, because I’m going to explain why UEG’s regeneration is far from being mere ‘low godly’; so, to put it simply, we’re going to define a few terms
‘A being’ is everything that exists
‘Being’ is the principle common to all beings
“Substance” is the basis of existence, and substance is also immutable (according to Aristotle)
“Accident” is everything that happens to the being but does not affect the substance. Let’s take the example of a table made of wood: here, the wood represents the substance and the table is the being
“Secondary substance/essence/ 'quiddity' is what enables the being to be what it is. Let’s take another example with a triangle: a triangle’s essence is having three sides, a square’s essence is having four sides. In other words, essence can be used in the form of predicates; for example, if I say that a triangle has three sides, I am making a predicate of the triangle.
Just to say that all of this contributes to existence; therefore, existence is composed of substance, quiddity, and the physical (material) body. I would remind you that essence is a metaphysical aspect, just like substance, and for us human beings, our essence is our ‘soul’, in short.
Now let’s look at Rick’s ability. Well, first of all, it’s said that Rick has a conceptual advantage in killing gods via his sacred sword; so, to put it simply, his sword isn’t ordinary but a special sword that kills on a conceptual level, and this very same sword was used to kill Vahanato, though not in the same way as with Ueg, because Vahanato already had a wound and Rick stabbed the sword right into that spot and killed him; whereas in Ueg’s case, she also had a wound and had lost her leg, but as you can see, it is literally stated that Ueg cannot be killed in that area like Vahanato, because it is not an essential part of her existence
So this implies that to kill Ueg, you have to destroy a part that is essential to his existence, but what exactly is this so-called essential part? Let’s go
So here Rick uses his exceptional sword, which has a conceptual advantage in targeting Ueg’s divine core, since technically destroying his body serves no purpose; you must therefore target the part where his essence/ quiddity, and to make this clear, it is explicitly stated that an ordinary sword cannot reach UEG’s divine core; so, of course, Rick’s sword was able to make the exception due to this conceptual advantage it possesses. So, to put it plainly, there are two options here: either the divine core represents merely a metaphysical part of Ueg, or it is the very concept of Ueg’s being, due to the nature of the sword, which holds a conceptual advantage over the gods. All things considered, this should correspond to mid-to-high-level godly regeneration, as Ueg returned immediately after his erasure
I can already see some people coming along to say, ‘Yeah, but it doesn’t say that the divine core is his soul’ or ‘it doesn’t say that the divine core is his spirit...’ Calm down. In metaphysics, particularly in Aristotle and St Thomas Aquinas, and in Friedrich Nietzsche too, ‘being = human beings only’ is false; it is an unjustified false claim; it is a fabrication, because ‘being’ in the etymological sense in metaphysics represents everything that is: a tree is a being, a human being is a being, the lion is a being, a telephone is a being... Just to let you know that the soul and the spirit represent merely the metaphysical aspects of the human being, and in a fictional verse there is no need to mention these terms; indeed, metaphysical terms may have other qualifications (other names), but they all share an identical property, and that is fortunate, as the VSBW explicitly mentions this on its metaphysics page
Metaphysical equivalence: in works of fiction, it is difficult to list all metaphysical aspects, such as the Dao, essence, ether... Can represent the metaphysical elements in works of fiction but as I said, every metaphysical aspect has the same function, which is to give meaning to existence.
So, obviously, the essence/concept of UEG lies within its divine core, which was struck by a conceptual sword, because it is said that an ordinary sword (a simple sword) cannot reach this part (the essence) of UEG. I think I’ve said too much, so in short, UEG should achieve mid-godly or even high-godly regeneration (if we interpret that the concept of UEG’s being lies within its divine core and that Rick’s sword, which attacks conceptually, erases this concept) and, of course, consequently, Yogiri should be denied mid-godly or even high-godly regeneration, as UEG was unable to return after being erased by the Endless Void (which allows nothing to exist).

The novel states that he transcends the very concept of causality itself . This is further supported by the fact that it is also mentioned that his actions are not linked to causality, meaning there can be no cause-and-effect relationship behind what he does. In the end, don’t forget that the novel explicitly states again that he goes beyond the concept of causality itself.

I think Acausality Type 5 for his true form fits this context perfectly, especially since he cannot be interacted with at all and meets all the requirements for this type of acausality.

In conclusion, we have
1) Type 1 acausality
3) Immunity to plot manipulation
4) Negation of Type 6 immortality
5) Negation of Type 2 nep
6) Law manipulation
7) nep type 1 for yogiri TF
8) type 5 acausality
9) mid- or high-godly regeneration for UEG
10) negation of mid- or high-godly regeneration for Yogiri

 

[Oxonom2962]

Totally Agreed.

 

[Optimus.negz]

So hello everyone, as you can see, there’s going to be a rework of some of Yogiri’s abilities, starting with his Instant Death. First, let’s take a look at this
So here we see Yogiri (the Avatar version, of course) being attacked in the past (even killed), but his present-day self hasn’t been affected. This simply implies that there is no cause-and-effect relationship between his past self and his present self, which should grant Yogiri Type 1 acausality.

2) So here it’s very simple: I’ll put this and this So, through these two panels, we’re told that Yogiri’s (the Avatar’s) existence is protected by a meta-story, so normally any kind of plot manipulation shouldn’t affect Yogiri, but let’s continue. It’s already been shown several times that Yogiri (the Avatar) is in homeostasis with his True Form (the END) so normally Yogiri (the Avatar) cannot do anything that his True Form is not capable of doing, given that the Avatar is merely a manifestation. So let’s go and demonstrate this. It is stated here that Yogiri’s true form—that is, The End—is beyond fate and plot So this means that the End is above concepts such as fate and plot, and regarding fate, this has already been proven several times, notably against Aoi and against Yukimasa. So, broadly speaking, this whole section is like an anaphora/ repetition that reinforces the first part, so it’s a sort of rhetorical device to emphasise the true form of Yogiri, which should give Yogiri resistance to plot manipulation—or rather, immunity, given that the plot cannot even apply to him—so I think immunity is quite consistent
Consequently, Yogiri should also benefit from Type 2 acausality, given that not only does the manipulation of fate not affect him, but his future is also inaccessible because Aoi’s precognition didn’t work. Admittedly, his profile already includes resistance to the manipulation of fate, but it would be more consistent to apply Type 2 acausality for greater clarity
3) For this section, let’s look together at what the wiki (vsbw) says so the vsbw tells us that NEP 1 is material non-existence; in binary terms, this corresponds to 0 (non-existence), and the vsbw defines NEP 2 as idealistic non-existence, so the subject is neither 0 (non-existence) nor 1 (existence). However, the VSBW states that these kinds of beings may have a non-conventional existence, i.e. prior or opposite
Now that this is clear, let’s look at this [so here we have a situation/ an equation involving Yogiri and the Lord of Spectres, where Yogiri could not see this pseudo-being despite possessing NPI ability; Yogiri therefore had to assume the existence of this being in order to kill it; so here the being has no material existence, hence Type 1 NEP, but the being in question also has a non-conventional existence because it exists as an idea, so it has a form of idealistic existence, given that it is a hypothetical being, and basically a hypothetical being is one that exists as a hypothesis or an idea; this is therefore a form of Type 2 NPI. If we correlate this with the definition of VSBW, the wiki also specifies that this is a form of paraconsistent physiology, so obviously this is Type 2]( ) To help some people understand the situation properly, let’s take an example. Right now, I’m thinking of a being with three heads and four feet. Technically, this being is neither existent nor non-existent; it’s just an idea of mine. Its existence falls under another unconventional form, which is ‘the idea’ here, as the wiki clearly states. So it’s just a supposition (hypothesis) on my part; otherwise, the being with three heads and four feet does not exist. We can therefore call it a hypothetical being, and well, it is this type of being that our beloved Yoghurt has stumbled upon
4) Yogiri should be exempt from Type 6 immortality because he killed Iselda, who possesses parasitic immortality; indeed, she was able to switch bodies every time she was killed within a specific body, so she has Type 6 immortality, as the wiki clearly states [here is the relevant scan]( )

5) Upon entering Mitsuki’s dream world, a law was imposed stipulating that anyone killed by Yogiri cannot return to life [here]( ), so Yogiri should benefit from Law Manipulation

6) Yogiri’s true form should also benefit from physiological non-existence, given that his true form, ‘The End’, represents non-existence—where existence and non-existence return to their end—and thus duality (existence and non-existence) here
And this can be explained simply by its nature as a ‘necessary being’. Yes, I would remind you that the true form of Yogiri is a necessary being, for it is explicitly stated that if one were to deny its true form, no existence or phenomenon would be permitted to exist; thus, it is clear that the non-existence of Yogiri would create a contradiction, and so it is a necessary being in metaphysics, particularly according to St Thomas Aquinas, Aquin, who himself draws inspiration from Aristotle: a necessary being is a being that cannot not exist, and necessity implies immutability, for change belongs to the contingent. In short, that will be for another topic; for now, let us stick to the main subject, as this will simply reinforce the first postulate. OK, to make it more understandable, I shall simply use syllogisms.
Let A = Yogiri (True form)
Let B = the set of existence
Then we simply have this
□A—> ◊B. There you go, it’s like axiom D in modal logic. In short, if we perform a contraposition by applying negation, we get
¬(□A—> ◊B) —> (¬A—> ¬B ) which also corresponds to Axiom K in modal logic (for those who have studied modal logic) So, broadly speaking, the existence of Yogiri (True Form) is beyond all duality, given that existence itself is composed of duality; moreover, the word ‘phenomenon’ is used here to soften the sentence, which is an anaphora. In short, this not only supports my initial explanation regarding the duality of (existence – non-existence), but also, it extends beyond its nature of necessity, which ought to lie outside all duality (considering this merely as the consequence of its □), which once again constitutes empirical proof that the end lies beyond all concepts; but in short, I therefore suggest adding Type 3 nep to the True Form of Yogiri, as well as Type 1/2 transduality

7) Now this part will be crucial, because I’m going to explain why UEG’s regeneration is far from being mere ‘low godly’; so, to put it simply, we’re going to define a few terms
‘A being’ is everything that exists
‘Being’ is the principle common to all beings
“Substance” is the basis of existence, and substance is also immutable (according to Aristotle)
“Accident” is everything that happens to the being but does not affect the substance. Let’s take the example of a table made of wood: here, the wood represents the substance and the table is the being
“Secondary substance/essence/ 'quiddity' is what enables the being to be what it is. Let’s take another example with a triangle: a triangle’s essence is having three sides, a square’s essence is having four sides. In other words, essence can be used in the form of predicates; for example, if I say that a triangle has three sides, I am making a predicate of the triangle.
Just to say that all of this contributes to existence; therefore, existence is composed of substance, quiddity, and the physical (material) body. I would remind you that essence is a metaphysical aspect, just like substance, and for us human beings, our essence is our ‘soul’, in short.
Now let’s look at Rick’s ability. Well, first of all, it’s said that Rick has a conceptual advantage in killing gods via his sacred sword; so, to put it simply, his sword isn’t ordinary but a special sword that kills on a conceptual level, and this very same sword was used to kill Vahanato, though not in the same way as with Ueg, because Vahanato already had a wound and Rick stabbed the sword right into that spot and killed him; whereas in Ueg’s case, she also had a wound and had lost her leg, but as you can see, it is literally stated that Ueg cannot be killed in that area like Vahanato, because it is not an essential part of her existence
So this implies that to kill Ueg, you have to destroy a part that is essential to his existence, but what exactly is this so-called essential part? Let’s go
So here Rick uses his exceptional sword, which has a conceptual advantage in targeting Ueg’s divine core, since technically destroying his body serves no purpose; you must therefore target the part where his essence/ quiddity, and to make this clear, it is explicitly stated that an ordinary sword cannot reach UEG’s divine core; so, of course, Rick’s sword was able to make the exception due to this conceptual advantage it possesses. So, to put it plainly, there are two options here: either the divine core represents merely a metaphysical part of Ueg, or it is the very concept of Ueg’s being, due to the nature of the sword, which holds a conceptual advantage over the gods. All things considered, this should correspond to mid-to-high-level godly regeneration, as Ueg returned immediately after his erasure
I can already see some people coming along to say, ‘Yeah, but it doesn’t say that the divine core is his soul’ or ‘it doesn’t say that the divine core is his spirit...’ Calm down. In metaphysics, particularly in Aristotle and St Thomas Aquinas, and in Friedrich Nietzsche too, ‘being = human beings only’ is false; it is an unjustified false claim; it is a fabrication, because ‘being’ in the etymological sense in metaphysics represents everything that is: a tree is a being, a human being is a being, the lion is a being, a telephone is a being... Just to let you know that the soul and the spirit represent merely the metaphysical aspects of the human being, and in a fictional verse there is no need to mention these terms; indeed, metaphysical terms may have other qualifications (other names), but they all share an identical property, and that is fortunate, as the VSBW explicitly mentions this on its metaphysics page
Metaphysical equivalence: in works of fiction, it is difficult to list all metaphysical aspects, such as the Dao, essence, ether... Can represent the metaphysical elements in works of fiction but as I said, every metaphysical aspect has the same function, which is to give meaning to existence.
So, obviously, the essence/concept of UEG lies within its divine core, which was struck by a conceptual sword, because it is said that an ordinary sword (a simple sword) cannot reach this part (the essence) of UEG. I think I’ve said too much, so in short, UEG should achieve mid-godly or even high-godly regeneration (if we interpret that the concept of UEG’s being lies within its divine core and that Rick’s sword, which attacks conceptually, erases this concept) and, of course, consequently, Yogiri should be denied mid-godly or even high-godly regeneration, as UEG was unable to return after being erased by the Endless Void (which allows nothing to exist).
In conclusion, we have
1) Type 1 acausality
2) Type 2 acausality
3) Immunity to plot manipulation
4) Negation of Type 6 immortality
5) Negation of Type 2 nep
6) Law manipulation
7) Type 2/3 nep
8) Type 1/2 transduality
9) mid- or high-godly regeneration for UEG
10) negation of mid- or high-godly regeneration for Yogiri

1. The point that acausality (type 1) is linked to the temporal paradox is correct. 2. Acausality (type 2) would not work; there is no proof that it exists only in the present; being above the concepts mentioned above would grant them immunity, but there is no acausality (type 2), even if it leads to the same conclusion. 3. The NEP (type 2) should be correct. 4. The negation of immutability (type 6) should also be correct. 5. How so? 6. I would say yes, but it’s a bit shaky, so it remains to be seen in relation to the rest. 7. That seems right to me.

 

[SkyBlade6635]

1. The point that acausality (type 1) is linked to the temporal paradox is correct. 2. Acausality (type 2) would not work; there is no proof that it exists only in the present; being above the concepts mentioned above would grant them immunity, but there is no acausality (type 2), even if it leads to the same conclusion. 3. The NEP (type 2) should be correct. 4. The negation of immutability (type 6) should also be correct. 5. How so? 6. I would say yes, but it’s a bit shaky, so it remains to be seen in relation to the rest. 7. That seems right to me.

In fact, type 2 acausality stems from the fact that he (Yogiri) cannot be affected by a change originating from the future, because fate manipulation and precognition (Aoi) was unable to affect him, so I believe there is no cause-and-effect relationship between his present self and his future self. Furthermore, on the VSBW page regarding acausality, it is stated that, given their nature, Type 2 acausal beings are immune to fate manipulation and precognition. Regarding number 5, he killed a being possessing Type 2 NEP, a being with an idealistic form of existence, so there is a form of negation on Yogiri’s part here.
Thank you for sharing your opinion

 

[Vesxpura]

son this is horrible. why are we involving random philo when it isnt even from the series . Yogiris true form is js basic non existence(explicitly said), idk how u come to the conclusion its a duality. why are WE scaling rhetorical devices. you didnt even prove a single one of ur claims outside of the foundational one.

 

[Optimus.negz]

In fact, type 2 acausality stems from the fact that he (Yogiri) cannot be affected by a change originating from the future, because fate manipulation and precognition (Aoi) was unable to affect him, so I believe there is no cause-and-effect relationship between his present self and his future self. Furthermore, on the VSBW page regarding acausality, it is stated that, given their nature, Type 2 acausal beings are immune to fate manipulation and precognition. Regarding number 5, he killed a being possessing Type 2 NEP, a being with an idealistic form of existence, so there is a form of negation on Yogiri’s part here.
Thank you for sharing your opinion

Type 2 acausality ought to be made more explicit in the work

 

[Optimus.negz]

son this is horrible. why are we involving random philo when it isnt even from the series . Yogiris true form is js basic non existence(explicitly said), idk how u come to the conclusion its a duality. why are WE scaling rhetorical devices. you didnt even prove a single one of ur claims outside of the foundational one.

He simply uses a syllogism to explain it and make it easier to understand,and try not to be so mean, because I don't think you'd like it if I openly said your work was rubbish and called you 'son'.

 

[SkyBlade6635]

It’s not some random philosophical musing; it’s just a syllogism I used to explain my point. If you don’t understand it, others do, so you need to make an effort more often – or at the very least, don’t give your opinion on things you don’t fully understand. Besides, you could simply have offered a reasonable opinion on this part; there’s no point in getting angry and adopting a condescendant tone, “son " " horrible " when your point of view is far from relevant

 

[Hecky2222]

He simply uses a syllogism to explain it and make it easier to understand,and try not to be so mean, because I don't think you'd like it if I openly said your work was rubbish and called you 'son'.

Ehhhhh I didn't want to involve to it(idk I wasn't self-banned) but how it makes easier to understand? Thread is basically ragebait for any philosophy fan or learner.

You guys dropping "phenomena", "necessary being" and similar words to justify ton of abilities. It is ridicilous and absolute cringe. Not to mention whatever you are proposing doesn't nearly correlate to what was written as "necessary being", whatsover, you could propose way more abilities rather than simply limiting yourself to "Nonduality, Nonexistence. bla bla". W Philosophy larping.

Now let's go actually what was proposed

Spoiler: Plot, Fate, Acausality Type 2

We already went through this multiple times. You don't need to prove negative tracking. Please read actually before proposing same arguments that has been rejected again and again. As for Fate thingy his profile has already resistance to Fate and if there is no resistance to Precognition, we could add it(But idk where is scan, where he resists Precog which you said?). I don't agree simply resisting Fate, Precog would equal to character only existing in Present and getting full immunity. It is not like we have statement about "There is only present form of Yogiri" or something. Disagree with immunity to Plot Manipulation, Fate Manipulation and Acausality Type 2.

Spoiler: NEP2, PP2

Nonexistence part is absolute cringe. Let's go what is wrong with it
1. You are supposing every NPI works against NEP. Non-Physical Interaction is interaction with something that doesn't exist physically. Ghost doesn't exist physically. BDE 1 doesn't exist physically. Abstract doesn't exist physically. Literally lot things don't exist physically. Yogiri doesn't have NPI for NEP. + Simply incorporeality isn't enough for NEP . Literally what we see: "It doesn't exist". We don't know WHICH PART OF IT DOESN'T EXIST TO GIVE YOUR CHARACTER NEP.
2. You: It doesn't exist thus NEP 1, also you: BUT IT WAS STATED AS IT EXISTING AS IDEA THUS NEP 2 CUZ NEP 2 IS IDEALISTIC NONEXISTENCE

Define to me what is nonexistence that is not nonexistence and existence and what is existing as idea.

3. You are literally misreading NEP 2. It is not always every NEP 2 gets PP. It is stated: These characters often have some form of Paraconsistent Physiology . But not ALWAYS. It doesn't mean every NEP 2 gets PP2. + It is not even close to what is PP2. Nonexistence + Existence alone qualifies for only ONE DUALITY meaning you will get PP1 at best

Spoiler: High-Mid Godly Regen

Mid-High Godly Regen, pretty sure it was ongoing there? So let's go by what is High Godly Regen:

High-Godly: The ability to regenerate after the erasure of body, mind, soul, and at least one other fundamental aspect of a character's existence. Such an aspect could be their place in the narrative, their history, their information (Type 2), their concept, or something else along those lines. For any aspect to qualify, destruction of that aspect must cause erasure of the character in some form, and evidence must exist that the character cannot exist without that fundamental aspect existing as well. In addition, it must not be something that regenerating the body, mind, or soul would ordinarily restore. As such, take care when evaluating Type 3 concepts, and aspects that are not sufficiently expanded upon to make a judgment will not qualify.

Mid-Godly: The ability to regenerate from the complete erasure of one's body, mind, and soul.

What we see: Existence Erasure that can erase concept(No soul, mind whatsover). It is Low-Godly. Something already UEG and other gods have.

Per Agnaa's comment you essentially need to prove all meta aspects that is present in Godly Regen parts getting erased. What you proved -> Concept Erasure. What you didn't -> Mind and Soul. So what makes it Mid-High Godly come again?

I already mentioned, using association fallacy to prove Yogiri's some abilities through philosophical word is cringe. It is easy to understand author didn't mean it. I mean author uses Tegmark Theory without even understanding what is that. How tf you came to such conclusions as if Fujitaka is Philosophy Guru?

I heavily disagree with thread, and won't engage further. I randomly saw it and was ragebaited by seeing things that doesn't even correlate. Genuinely ngl, one of the worst threads I have ever seen.

Only thing probably you could argue is Ac1. And lastly:

 

[Optimus.negz]

Ehhhhh I didn't want to involve to it(idk I wasn't self-banned) but how it makes easier to understand? Thread is basically ragebait for any philosophy fan or learner.

You guys dropping "phenomena", "necessary being" and similar words to justify ton of abilities. It is ridicilous and absolute cringe. Not to mention whatever you are proposing doesn't nearly correlate to what was written as "necessary being", whatsover, you could propose way more abilities rather than simply limiting yourself to "Nonduality, Nonexistence. bla bla". W Philosophy larping.

It is worth considering why you express such disdain.If you had taken the time to read through the thread, you would have seen that I did not share the opinion expressed regarding the various transdualities.
It should be noted that a syllogism aids understanding; that is, after all, the purpose of a syllogism .
It is regrettable to see that the criticism is directed at what I may have said.
Furthermore, the response provided does not address, or only partially addresses, the original message.

 

[sukuna171]

Ehhhhh I didn't want to involve to it(idk I wasn't self-banned) but how it makes easier to understand? Thread is basically ragebait for any philosophy fan or learner.

You guys dropping "phenomena", "necessary being" and similar words to justify ton of abilities. It is ridicilous and absolute cringe. Not to mention whatever you are proposing doesn't nearly correlate to what was written as "necessary being", whatsover, you could propose way more abilities rather than simply limiting yourself to "Nonduality, Nonexistence. bla bla". W Philosophy larping.

Now let's go actually what was proposed

Spoiler: Plot, Fate, Acausality Type 2

We already went through this multiple times. You don't need to prove negative tracking. Please read actually before proposing same arguments that has been rejected again and again. As for Fate thingy his profile has already resistance to Fate and if there is no resistance to Precognition, we could add it(But idk where is scan, where he resists Precog which you said?). I don't agree simply resisting Fate, Precog would equal to character only existing in Present and getting full immunity. It is not like we have statement about "There is only present form of Yogiri" or something. Disagree with immunity to Plot Manipulation, Fate Manipulation and Acausality Type 2.

Spoiler: NEP2, PP2

Nonexistence part is absolute cringe. Let's go what is wrong with it
1. You are supposing every NPI works against NEP. Non-Physical Interaction is interaction with something that doesn't exist physically. Ghost doesn't exist physically. BDE 1 doesn't exist physically. Abstract doesn't exist physically. Literally lot things don't exist physically. Yogiri doesn't have NPI for NEP. + Simply incorporeality isn't enough for NEP . Literally what we see: "It doesn't exist". We don't know WHICH PART OF IT DOESN'T EXIST TO GIVE YOUR CHARACTER NEP.
2. You: It doesn't exist thus NEP 1, also you: BUT IT WAS STATED AS IT EXISTING AS IDEA THUS NEP 2 CUZ NEP 2 IS IDEALISTIC NONEXISTENCE

Define to me what is nonexistence that is not nonexistence and existence and what is existing as idea.

3. You are literally misreading NEP 2. It is not always every NEP 2 gets PP. It is stated: These characters often have some form of Paraconsistent Physiology . But not ALWAYS. It doesn't mean every NEP 2 gets PP2. + It is not even close to what is PP2. Nonexistence + Existence alone qualifies for only ONE DUALITY meaning you will get PP1 at best

Spoiler: High-Mid Godly Regen

Mid-High Godly Regen, pretty sure it was ongoing there? So let's go by what is High Godly Regen:

High-Godly: The ability to regenerate after the erasure of body, mind, soul, and at least one other fundamental aspect of a character's existence. Such an aspect could be their place in the narrative, their history, their information (Type 2), their concept, or something else along those lines. For any aspect to qualify, destruction of that aspect must cause erasure of the character in some form, and evidence must exist that the character cannot exist without that fundamental aspect existing as well. In addition, it must not be something that regenerating the body, mind, or soul would ordinarily restore. As such, take care when evaluating Type 3 concepts, and aspects that are not sufficiently expanded upon to make a judgment will not qualify.

Mid-Godly: The ability to regenerate from the complete erasure of one's body, mind, and soul.

What we see: Existence Erasure that can erase concept(No soul, mind whatsover). It is Low-Godly. Something already UEG and other gods have.

Per Agnaa's comment you essentially need to prove all meta aspects that is present in Godly Regen parts getting erased. What you proved -> Concept Erasure. What you didn't -> Mind and Soul. So what makes it Mid-High Godly come again?

I already mentioned, using association fallacy to prove Yogiri's some abilities through philosophical word is cringe. It is easy to understand author didn't mean it. I mean author uses Tegmark Theory without even understanding what is that. How tf you came to such conclusions as if Fujitaka is Philosophy Guru?

I heavily disagree with thread, and won't engage further. I randomly saw it and was ragebaited by seeing things that doesn't even correlate. Genuinely ngl, one of the worst threads I have ever seen.

Only thing probably you could argue is Ac1. And lastly:

Honestly, Yogiri’s true form might very well be NEP Type 1, as it’s described as the nothingness at the end of existence.

Spoiler

I have to run, I have to run, I have to run.
Only such things kept going around in my head. However, my body would not listen at all. Once I recognized that, I could not divert my consciousness away, and I was only continuously exposed to fear. That was a dead end. It was the destination where all fates arrive, and beyond that, there was nothing. The end of everything had taken the form of a human there. Precisely because it is the end, it is the one that stands until the very last. No one can go beyond it.
Against such a being, things like fate or scenario are not even worth being called nonsense. It is an existence for which even thinking about trying to fight is foolish.
Just by thinking that it wants to kill, the opponent dies.
When I first heard it, I thought, what nonsense. I thought it only looked that way because of the overwhelming difference in ability.
That ability probably has some sort of mechanism. If I analyze and examine it, I should be able to devise countermeasures, and if I make full use of Aoi’s ability, I thought it would somehow work out.

Spoiler

The UEG unleashed her power in full force. But that power, which should
have annihilated everything, vanished into the darkness. It hadn’t made the
slightest change in her surroundings.
“It’s impossible,” Kouryu said. “There’s nothing here, so there’s nothing
for you to destroy.”

 

[SkyBlade6635]

It’s not some random philosophical musing; it’s just a syllogism I used to explain my point. If you don’t understand it, others do, so you need to make an effort more often – or at the very least, don’t give your opinion on things you don’t fully understand. Besides, you could simply have offered a reasonable opinion on this part; there’s no point in getting angry and adopting a condescending tone, “son " " horrible " when your point of view is far from relevant

Ehhhhh I didn't want to involve to it(idk I wasn't self-banned) but how it makes easier to understand? Thread is basically ragebait for any philosophy fan or learner.

You guys dropping "phenomena", "necessary being" and similar words to justify ton of abilities. It is ridicilous and absolute cringe. Not to mention whatever you are proposing doesn't nearly correlate to what was written as "necessary being", whatsover, you could propose way more abilities rather than simply limiting yourself to "Nonduality, Nonexistence. bla bla". W Philosophy larping.

Now let's go actually what was proposed

Spoiler: Plot, Fate, Acausality Type 2

We already went through this multiple times. You don't need to prove negative tracking. Please read actually before proposing same arguments that has been rejected again and again. As for Fate thingy his profile has already resistance to Fate and if there is no resistance to Precognition, we could add it(But idk where is scan, where he resists Precog which you said?). I don't agree simply resisting Fate, Precog would equal to character only existing in Present and getting full immunity. It is not like we have statement about "There is only present form of Yogiri" or something. Disagree with immunity to Plot Manipulation, Fate Manipulation and Acausality Type 2.

Spoiler: NEP2, PP2

Nonexistence part is absolute cringe. Let's go what is wrong with it
1. You are supposing every NPI works against NEP. Non-Physical Interaction is interaction with something that doesn't exist physically. Ghost doesn't exist physically. BDE 1 doesn't exist physically. Abstract doesn't exist physically. Literally lot things don't exist physically. Yogiri doesn't have NPI for NEP. + Simply incorporeality isn't enough for NEP . Literally what we see: "It doesn't exist". We don't know WHICH PART OF IT DOESN'T EXIST TO GIVE YOUR CHARACTER NEP.
2. You: It doesn't exist thus NEP 1, also you: BUT IT WAS STATED AS IT EXISTING AS IDEA THUS NEP 2 CUZ NEP 2 IS IDEALISTIC NONEXISTENCE

Define to me what is nonexistence that is not nonexistence and existence and what is existing as idea.

3. You are literally misreading NEP 2. It is not always every NEP 2 gets PP. It is stated: These characters often have some form of Paraconsistent Physiology . But not ALWAYS. It doesn't mean every NEP 2 gets PP2. + It is not even close to what is PP2. Nonexistence + Existence alone qualifies for only ONE DUALITY meaning you will get PP1 at best

Spoiler: High-Mid Godly Regen

Mid-High Godly Regen, pretty sure it was ongoing there? So let's go by what is High Godly Regen:

High-Godly: The ability to regenerate after the erasure of body, mind, soul, and at least one other fundamental aspect of a character's existence. Such an aspect could be their place in the narrative, their history, their information (Type 2), their concept, or something else along those lines. For any aspect to qualify, destruction of that aspect must cause erasure of the character in some form, and evidence must exist that the character cannot exist without that fundamental aspect existing as well. In addition, it must not be something that regenerating the body, mind, or soul would ordinarily restore. As such, take care when evaluating Type 3 concepts, and aspects that are not sufficiently expanded upon to make a judgment will not qualify.

Mid-Godly: The ability to regenerate from the complete erasure of one's body, mind, and soul.

What we see: Existence Erasure that can erase concept(No soul, mind whatsover). It is Low-Godly. Something already UEG and other gods have.

Per Agnaa's comment you essentially need to prove all meta aspects that is present in Godly Regen parts getting erased. What you proved -> Concept Erasure. What you didn't -> Mind and Soul. So what makes it Mid-High Godly come again?

I already mentioned, using association fallacy to prove Yogiri's some abilities through philosophical word is cringe. It is easy to understand author didn't mean it. I mean author uses Tegmark Theory without even understanding what is that. How tf you came to such conclusions as if Fujitaka is Philosophy Guru?

I heavily disagree with thread, and won't engage further. I randomly saw it and was ragebaited by seeing things that doesn't even correlate. Genuinely ngl, one of the worst threads I have ever seen.

Only thing probably you could argue is Ac1. And lastly:

Your comment about the plot twist’s immunity is absolutely hilarious – surely one of the worst comments I’ve ever seen. it’s clearly stated (the scans are right in front of you) that phenomena such as fate and plot are nothing but a joke to Yogiri’s TF, yet you still manage to take it out of context – well done – not to mention that this argument is used as a refrain to reinforce the first point

 

[SkyBlade6635]

Ehhhhh I didn't want to involve to it(idk I wasn't self-banned) but how it makes easier to understand? Thread is basically ragebait for any philosophy fan or learner.

You guys dropping "phenomena", "necessary being" and similar words to justify ton of abilities. It is ridicilous and absolute cringe. Not to mention whatever you are proposing doesn't nearly correlate to what was written as "necessary being", whatsover, you could propose way more abilities rather than simply limiting yourself to "Nonduality, Nonexistence. bla bla". W Philosophy larping.

Now let's go actually what was proposed

Spoiler: Plot, Fate, Acausality Type 2

We already went through this multiple times. You don't need to prove negative tracking. Please read actually before proposing same arguments that has been rejected again and again. As for Fate thingy his profile has already resistance to Fate and if there is no resistance to Precognition, we could add it(But idk where is scan, where he resists Precog which you said?). I don't agree simply resisting Fate, Precog would equal to character only existing in Present and getting full immunity. It is not like we have statement about "There is only present form of Yogiri" or something. Disagree with immunity to Plot Manipulation, Fate Manipulation and Acausality Type 2.

Spoiler: NEP2, PP2

Nonexistence part is absolute cringe. Let's go what is wrong with it
1. You are supposing every NPI works against NEP. Non-Physical Interaction is interaction with something that doesn't exist physically. Ghost doesn't exist physically. BDE 1 doesn't exist physically. Abstract doesn't exist physically. Literally lot things don't exist physically. Yogiri doesn't have NPI for NEP. + Simply incorporeality isn't enough for NEP . Literally what we see: "It doesn't exist". We don't know WHICH PART OF IT DOESN'T EXIST TO GIVE YOUR CHARACTER NEP.
2. You: It doesn't exist thus NEP 1, also you: BUT IT WAS STATED AS IT EXISTING AS IDEA THUS NEP 2 CUZ NEP 2 IS IDEALISTIC NONEXISTENCE

Define to me what is nonexistence that is not nonexistence and existence and what is existing as idea.

3. You are literally misreading NEP 2. It is not always every NEP 2 gets PP. It is stated: These characters often have some form of Paraconsistent Physiology . But not ALWAYS. It doesn't mean every NEP 2 gets PP2. + It is not even close to what is PP2. Nonexistence + Existence alone qualifies for only ONE DUALITY meaning you will get PP1 at best

Spoiler: High-Mid Godly Regen

Mid-High Godly Regen, pretty sure it was ongoing there? So let's go by what is High Godly Regen:

High-Godly: The ability to regenerate after the erasure of body, mind, soul, and at least one other fundamental aspect of a character's existence. Such an aspect could be their place in the narrative, their history, their information (Type 2), their concept, or something else along those lines. For any aspect to qualify, destruction of that aspect must cause erasure of the character in some form, and evidence must exist that the character cannot exist without that fundamental aspect existing as well. In addition, it must not be something that regenerating the body, mind, or soul would ordinarily restore. As such, take care when evaluating Type 3 concepts, and aspects that are not sufficiently expanded upon to make a judgment will not qualify.

Mid-Godly: The ability to regenerate from the complete erasure of one's body, mind, and soul.

What we see: Existence Erasure that can erase concept(No soul, mind whatsover). It is Low-Godly. Something already UEG and other gods have.

Per Agnaa's comment you essentially need to prove all meta aspects that is present in Godly Regen parts getting erased. What you proved -> Concept Erasure. What you didn't -> Mind and Soul. So what makes it Mid-High Godly come again?

I already mentioned, using association fallacy to prove Yogiri's some abilities through philosophical word is cringe. It is easy to understand author didn't mean it. I mean author uses Tegmark Theory without even understanding what is that. How tf you came to such conclusions as if Fujitaka is Philosophy Guru?

I heavily disagree with thread, and won't engage further. I randomly saw it and was ragebaited by seeing things that doesn't even correlate. Genuinely ngl, one of the worst threads I have ever seen.

Only thing probably you could argue is Ac1. And lastly:

As for the Spectre Lord’s NEP 2, the scans are right here in front of you, and my arguments are right here too, but you’ve still managed to twist my arguments under the pretext that I said NPI affects NEP, so you’ve just used a straw man fallacy to easily refute my arguments. But let’s get to it: first of all, under no circumstances did I say that Yogiri affects it via NPI, lol. I just said that even though Yogiri possesses NPI (because he can see Makomo and has killed abstract phenomena like his fall), he couldn’t see the Lord of Spectres, just to make you understand that he isn’t an abstract being or anything of the sort. He implied that Yogiri had to assume his existence in order to kill him, because the being in question had no material existence but existed instead as a hypothesis, an idea; that is why it is said that he is a hypothetical being. Donc le seigneur des spectre devrait donc avoir de la nep type 2 et vu que yogiri peut le kill malgré ça alors y'a une forme de négation

 

[Optimus.negz]

As for the Spectre Lord’s NEP 2, the scans are right here in front of you, and my arguments are right here too, but you’ve still managed to twist my arguments under the pretext that I said NPI affects NEP, so you’ve just used a straw man fallacy to easily refute my arguments. But let’s get to it: first of all, under no circumstances did I say that Yogiri affects it via NPI, lol. I just said that even though Yogiri possesses NPI (because he can see Makomo and has killed abstract phenomena like his fall), he couldn’t see the Lord of Spectres, just to make you understand that he isn’t an abstract being or anything of the sort. He implied that Yogiri had to assume his existence in order to kill him, because the being in question had no material existence but existed instead as a hypothesis, an idea; that is why it is said that he is a hypothetical being. Donc le seigneur des spectre devrait donc avoir de la nep type 2 et vu que yogiri peut le kill malgré ça alors y'a une forme de négation

End it in English

 

[SkyBlade6635]

It is worth considering why you express such disdain.If you had taken the time to read through the thread, you would have seen that I did not share the opinion expressed regarding the various transdualities.
It should be noted that a syllogism aids understanding; that is, after all, the purpose of a syllogism .
It is regrettable to see that the criticism is directed at what I may have said.
Furthermore, the response provided does not address, or only partially addresses, the original message.

Euh… je ne voulais pas m'en mêler ( je ne sais pas, je ne me suis pas auto-banni ), mais en quoi cela facilite-t-il la compréhension ? Ce sujet est un véritable appât à polémiques pour tout amateur ou étudiant de philosophie.

Vous utilisez des expressions comme « phénomènes », « être nécessaire » et autres pour justifier des tas de capacités. C'est ridicule et franchement affligeant . Sans parler du fait que ce que vous proposez n'a absolument rien à voir avec ce qui a été décrit comme « être nécessaire ». De toute façon, vous pourriez proposer bien plus de capacités au lieu de vous limiter à « non-dualité, non-existence… bla bla ». C'est du grand n'importe quoi, de la philosophie de pacotille.

Passons maintenant à ce qui a été proposé.

Spoiler: Intrigue, Destin, Acausalité Type 2

Nous avons déjà abordé ce sujet à plusieurs reprises . Inutile de prouver un suivi négatif. Veuillez lire attentivement avant de proposer des arguments déjà maintes fois rejetés. Concernant le Destin, son profil inclut déjà une résistance à celui-ci . S'il n'y a pas de résistance à la Précognition, nous pourrions l'ajouter (mais je ne vois pas où se trouve la capture d'écran où il résiste à la Précognition dont vous parlez ?). Je ne suis pas d'accord avec l'idée que résister simplement au Destin et à la Précognition reviendrait à faire en sorte que le personnage n'existe que dans le présent et obtienne une immunité totale. Ce n'est pas comme si nous avions une déclaration du type « Yogiri n'existe que sous sa forme présente ». Je suis en désaccord avec l'immunité à la Manipulation de l'Intrigue, à la Manipulation du Destin et à l'Acausalité Type 2.

Spoiler: NEP2, PP2

La partie sur la non-existence est vraiment gênante. Voyons ce qui cloche.
1. Vous partez du principe que toute interaction non physique (INP) s'oppose à la non-existence physique (NEP). Une interaction non physique est une interaction avec quelque chose qui n'existe pas physiquement. Un fantôme n'existe pas physiquement. Un BDE 1 n'existe pas physiquement. Un être abstrait n'existe pas physiquement. Littéralement, beaucoup de choses n'existent pas physiquement. Yogiri n'a pas d'INP pour la NEP . + La simple incorporeité ne suffit pas pour la NEP . Littéralement, ce que nous voyons : « Cela n'existe pas ». Nous ne savons pas quelle partie de cela n'existe pas pour donner à votre personnage la NEP.
2. Vous : Cela n'existe pas, donc NEP 1 ; vous aussi : MAIS IL A ÉTÉ DÉCLARÉ COMME EXISTANT EN TANT QU'IDÉE, DONC NEP 2 CAR NEP 2 EST LA NON-EXISTENCE IDÉALISTE

Définissez-moi ce qu'est la non-existence qui n'est pas la non-existence et l'existence, et ce qu'est l'existence en tant qu'idée .

3. You are literally misreading NEP 2. It is not always every NEP 2 gets PP. It is stated: These characters often have some form of Paraconsistent Physiology . But not ALWAYS. It doesn't mean every NEP 2 gets PP2. + It is not even close to what is PP2. Nonexistence + Existence alone qualifies for only ONE DUALITY meaning you will get PP1 at best

Spoiler: High-Mid Godly Regen

Mid-High Godly Regen, pretty sure it was ongoing there? So let's go by what is High Godly Regen:

High-Godly: The ability to regenerate after the erasure of body, mind, soul, and at least one other fundamental aspect of a character's existence. Such an aspect could be their place in the narrative, their history, their information (Type 2), their concept, or something else along those lines. For any aspect to qualify, destruction of that aspect must cause erasure of the character in some form, and evidence must exist that the character cannot exist without that fundamental aspect existing as well. In addition, it must not be something that regenerating the body, mind, or soul would ordinarily restore. As such, take care when evaluating Type 3 concepts, and aspects that are not sufficiently expanded upon to make a judgment will not qualify.

Mid-Godly: The ability to regenerate from the complete erasure of one's body, mind, and soul.

What we see: Existence Erasure that can erase concept(No soul, mind whatsover). It is Low-Godly. Something already UEG and other gods have.

Per Agnaa's comment you essentially need to prove all meta aspects that is present in Godly Regen parts getting erased. What you proved -> Concept Erasure. What you didn't -> Mind and Soul. So what makes it Mid-High Godly come again?

I already mentioned, using association fallacy to prove Yogiri's some abilities through philosophical word is cringe. It is easy to understand author didn't mean it. I mean author uses Tegmark Theory without even understanding what is that. How tf you came to such conclusions as if Fujitaka is Philosophy Guru?

I heavily disagree with thread, and won't engage further. I randomly saw it and was ragebaited by seeing things that doesn't even correlate. Genuinely ngl, one of the worst threads I have ever seen.

Only thing probably you could argue is Ac1. And lastly:

I don't get why you don't like the idea of using philosophical terms when metaphysics is a branch of philosophy – it's a bit daft, really. I've made it clear that when we talk about metaphysics, we don't necessarily have to mention the words "souls ” or “spirit”, and the VSBW supports this idea. I’ve even sent the panels. Unless you’re contradicting the wiki or using another authority, when we talk about the soul, it represents the essence of a human being; here, UEG’s essence lies in his divine core, and to reach this so-called core, you can’t use ordinary attacks to reach it, but Rick’s sword may have been the exception because the sword has a conceptual advantage in killing gods, and it is precisely this advantage that allowed it to reach UEG’s essence; so you can consider that its essence is the equivalent of the soul here, given that you persist on this word without understanding its etymological meaning

 

[SkyBlade6635]

Euh… je ne voulais pas m'en mêler ( je ne sais pas, je ne me suis pas auto-banni ), mais en quoi cela facilite-t-il la compréhension ? Ce sujet est un véritable appât à polémiques pour tout amateur ou étudiant de philosophie.

Vous utilisez des expressions comme « phénomènes », « être nécessaire » et autres pour justifier des tas de capacités. C'est ridicule et franchement affligeant . Sans parler du fait que ce que vous proposez n'a absolument rien à voir avec ce qui a été décrit comme « être nécessaire ». De toute façon, vous pourriez proposer bien plus de capacités au lieu de vous limiter à « non-dualité, non-existence… bla bla ». C'est du grand n'importe quoi, de la philosophie de pacotille.

Now let's go actually what was proposed

Spoiler: Intrigue, Destin, Acausalité Type 2

Nous avons déjà abordé ce sujet à plusieurs reprises . Inutile de prouver une absence de suivi. Veuillez lire attentivement avant de proposer des arguments déjà maintes fois réfutés. Quant à l'histoire du Destin, son profil présente déjà une résistance à cette notion. and if there is no resistance to Precognition, we could add it(But idk where is scan, where he resists Precog which you said?). I don't agree simply resisting Fate, Precog would equal to character only existing in Present and getting full immunity. It is not like we have statement about "There is only present form of Yogiri" or something. Disagree with immunity to Plot Manipulation, Fate Manipulation and Acausality Type 2.

Spoiler: NEP2, PP2

La partie sur la non-existence est vraiment gênante. Voyons ce qui cloche.
1. Vous partez du principe que toute interaction non physique (INP) s'oppose à la non-existence physique (NEP). Une interaction non physique est une interaction avec quelque chose qui n'existe pas physiquement. Un fantôme n'existe pas physiquement. Un BDE 1 n'existe pas physiquement. Un être abstrait n'existe pas physiquement. Littéralement, beaucoup de choses n'existent pas physiquement. Yogiri n'a pas d'INP pour la NEP . + La simple incorporeité ne suffit pas pour la NEP . Littéralement, ce que nous voyons : « Cela n'existe pas ». Nous ne savons pas quelle partie de cela n'existe pas pour donner à votre personnage la NEP.
2. Vous : Cela n'existe pas, donc NEP 1 ; vous aussi : MAIS IL A ÉTÉ DÉCLARÉ COMME EXISTANT EN TANT QU'IDÉE, DONC NEP 2 CAR NEP 2 EST LA NON-EXISTENCE IDÉALISTE

Définissez-moi ce qu'est la non-existence qui n'est pas la non-existence et l'existence, et ce qu'est l'existence en tant qu'idée .

3. Vous interprétez mal NEP 2. Tous les NEP 2 n'obtiennent pas systématiquement PP. Il est indiqué : « Ces personnages possèdent souvent une forme de physiologie paraconsistante . » Mais pas toujours. Cela ne signifie pas que tous les NEP 2 obtiennent PP2. De plus, PP2 est très différent. La non-existence et l'existence seule ne permettent d'obtenir qu'UNE SEULE DUALITÉ, ce qui signifie que vous obtiendrez PP1 au mieux.

Spoiler: Régénération divine moyenne à élevée

Régénération divine moyenne à élevée, je suis presque sûr que c'était en cours ? Alors, voyons ce qu'est la régénération divine élevée :

Divinité supérieure : Capacité de se régénérer après la disparition du corps, de l’esprit, de l’âme et d’au moins un autre aspect fondamental de l’existence d’un personnage. Cet aspect peut être sa place dans le récit , son histoire, ses informations (Type 2), son concept , ou tout autre élément similaire. Pour qu’un aspect soit admissible, sa destruction doit entraîner la disparition du personnage sous une forme ou une autre, et il doit exister des preuves que le personnage ne peut exister sans cet aspect fondamental. De plus, il ne doit pas s’agir d’un élément que la régénération du corps, de l’esprit ou de l’âme permettrait normalement de restaurer. Par conséquent, il convient d’être prudent lors de l’évaluation des concepts de Type 3 , et les aspects qui ne sont pas suffisamment développés pour permettre un jugement ne seront pas admissibles.

Mi-divin : La capacité de se régénérer après l'effacement complet de son corps, de son esprit et de son âme.

Ce que nous voyons : une effacement de l’existence capable d’anéantir tout concept (absence totale d’âme et de conscience). C’est un phénomène quasi divin, déjà présent chez UEG et d’autres dieux.

D'après le commentaire d'Agnaa, il faut prouver que tous les aspects méta présents dans les parties de Godly Regen sont effacés. Ce que vous avez prouvé : l'effacement du concept. Ce que vous n'avez pas prouvé : l'esprit et l'âme. Alors, qu'est-ce qui la rend encore plus puissante ?

Spoiler

Comme je l'ai déjà dit, utiliser le sophisme d'association pour prouver les prétendues capacités de Yogiri par le biais de considérations philosophiques est tout simplement ridicule. Il est évident que l'auteur ne l'a pas fait exprès. En fait, il utilise la théorie de Tegmark sans même en comprendre le principe. Comment diable peut-on en arriver à des conclusions pareilles, comme si Fujitaka était un maître de la philosophie ?

Je suis totalement en désaccord avec ce sujet et je n'y participerai pas davantage. Je suis tombé dessus par hasard et j'ai été exaspéré par des propos qui n'ont absolument aucun rapport. Franchement, c'est l'un des pires sujets que j'aie jamais vus.

Le seul point discutable est probablement l'acte 1. Et enfin :

Spoiler: NEP2, PP2

Spoiler: Régénération divine moyenne à élevée

Spoiler

Now, regarding the concept of transduality, I must admit that the arguments put forward don’t hold up properly, because for transduality to exist, there must be a certain (qualitative) superiority over a given duality. I tried to argue this point, but I admit it doesn’t hold water; however, the arguments you used to debunk it don’t hold up either.
What follows is even worse: you mention BDE and mtt4 – what’s the connection? I’m not scaling Yogiri to a specific tier here; the CRT is talking about hacks and certain aspects. I don’t know how you ended up with references to “mtt4” "BDE" and so on. I don’t know if you’ve read the page on fallacies, but you’ve just committed yet another red herring fallacy, because what you’re saying has nothing to do with the CRT. MTT4 is one of the ways to scale low outer, a bit like Type 2 BDE, and MTT4 talks about the actual existence of all possible mathematical structures; I don’t see the connection with the CRT, lol

 

[SkyBlade6635]

End it in English

Yes, I admit my phone sometimes automatically translates into French

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

I will be honest... I can't read or understand this CRT...

 

[SkyBlade6635]

I will be honest... I can't read or understand this CRT...

It must be down to the translation; I translated it into English before posting

 

[Maniaunavailable]

Disagree cuz hecky, where is my goat sukuna

 

[SkyBlade6635]

Disagree cuz hecky, where is my goat sukuna

Could you point out exactly where you disagree? A few different topics were brought up in the CRT, like Type 1 Acausality, Plot Manipulation immunity, Mid-Godly Regeneration, and so on."

 

[Mbpoops]

Well plot manip resistance was already talked about and rejected in a recent thread so that should go

 

[JustANormalPerson01]

Plot Manipulation is being argued here with the same arguments. So, for the sake of organization and not filling this thread with repeated arguments, I'll recommend you to go discuss it there instead and delete that part of your OP.

Immortality type 6 same arguments were rejected here.

Edit: UEG regeneration is being argued here, so I'll recommend go arguing there. Or, given the thread has almost no input, ask if the argumentation can be here instead (but I'll recommend the former given that CRT is focused on that topic, so there'll be less derailment)

 

[SkyBlade6635]

Well plot manip resistance was already talked about and rejected in a recent thread so that should go

Yeah, I've seen that before, but the argument being used was that the use of 'plot' here was just a stylistic exaggeration for destiny manipulation. However, if you look closely at the passage, that’s not the case. The author makes a clear distinction between 'destiny' and 'plot'; they are two entirely different words and concepts.
The author wouldn’t say 'destiny and plot' if 'plot' was meant to have the same meaning as 'destiny'—that would be tautological. Given the nature of 'The End,' Yogiri’s true form transcends concepts like destiny and plot. When the text says, 'In the face of his true form, destiny and plot are nothing more than a joke,' his true form should logically grant immunity to both. Fujitaka wouldn't use two distinct terms—destiny and plot—to convey the same meaning. Furthermore, the logical conjunction 'and' is used to connect two separate assertions. Saying 'destiny and plot' equals just 'destiny' is nonsensical; they are two distinct points

 

[Lycoris4812]

Where'd all these larpers come from.

 

[sukuna171]

High godly regeneration might be possible for gods, as I pointed out in this thread.

 

[Ruler_Star_Kuma]

WHERE ARE THESE LARPERS COMING FROM??

 

[Maniaunavailable]

Could you point out exactly where you disagree? A few different topics were brought up in the CRT, like Type 1 Acausality, Plot Manipulation immunity, Mid-Godly Regeneration, and so on."

literally there, via what hecky said

 

[LiewtiStar]

Yeah, I've seen that before, but the argument being used was that the use of 'plot' here was just a stylistic exaggeration for destiny manipulation. However, if you look closely at the passage, that’s not the case. The author makes a clear distinction between 'destiny' and 'plot'; they are two entirely different words and concepts.
The author wouldn’t say 'destiny and plot' if 'plot' was meant to have the same meaning as 'destiny'—that would be tautological. Given the nature of 'The End,' Yogiri’s true form transcends concepts like destiny and plot. When the text says, 'In the face of his true form, destiny and plot are nothing more than a joke,' his true form should logically grant immunity to both. Fujitaka wouldn't use two distinct terms—destiny and plot—to convey the same meaning. Furthermore, the logical conjunction 'and' is used to connect two separate assertions. Saying 'destiny and plot' equals just 'destiny' is nonsensical; they are two distinct points

If you had read the previous arguments (and the material source), you would understand that "Plot" in ID is used as a metaphorical way about how Fate is described within the cosmology.

1st

"[...] I can see Fate itself. In short, if this world were a movie, I would be able to read the script."

2d

"[...] To keep the movie metaphore, there are multiple protagonists all in motion at the same time. Multiple scenarios are unfolding at once, so the script is fairly chaotic...."

And also here, again, multiple times.

That would only make sense that when talking about Fate, Plot would also be involved since it is used many times to explain powers/abilities or phenomena in ID.

 

[SkyBlade6635]

If you had read the previous arguments (and the material source), you would understand that "Plot" in ID is used as a metaphorical way about how Fate is described within the cosmology.

1st

2d

And also here, again, multiple times.

That would only make sense that when talking about Fate, Plot would also be involved since it is used many times to explain powers/abilities or phenomena in ID.

To be honest, I see your point, and you're right that in most cases, "plot" is used metaphorically to talk about fate. However, the thing is that by repeating the term "plot" (which feels like an anaphora to me), you can notice the author's tone eventually shifts. At a certain point, it’s no longer just a metaphor because that would make the text incoherent.
Take this sentence for example: "In the face of such a thing, things like fate and plot are nothing but a joke." This is the main part I’m basing my argument on. You can't really call it a metaphor here for a few reasons. First, the very structure of the sentence: the term "fate" is separated from the term "plot" by a conjunction ("and"). We know that "and" is used to link different terms or concepts. If we still assume that "plot" is just a metaphor for "fate" here, the phrase "fate and plot" would be tautological—it would be like saying "fate and fate."
I don't know if you see what I mean, but the style of the sentence just doesn't allow for a metaphor anymore. Especially since the author also uses the plural ("things like..."). We can agree that "things" or "the" (in plural) are used to list multiple items, right? So, if you agree with that, you should be able to see my point: "things" and "and" are used here to talk about distinct concepts.
The meaning of the sentence is basically: "In the face of such a thing, things like fate (first thing) and plot (second thing) are nothing but a joke." You can see that it's not just "flowery language" in this specific context. I totally agree with you on the other parts you explained, but I also think that if we analyze this specific part, it's very difficult—if not impossible—to call it a "metaphor."

 

[SkyBlade6635]

To be honest, I see your point, and you're right that in most cases, "plot" is used metaphorically to talk about fate. However, the thing is that by repeating the term "plot" (which feels like an anaphora to me), you can notice the author's tone eventually shifts. At a certain point, it’s no longer just a metaphor because that would make the text incoherent.
Take this sentence for example: "In the face of such a thing, things like fate and plot are nothing but a joke." This is the main part I’m basing my argument on. You can't really call it a metaphor here for a few reasons. First, the very structure of the sentence: the term "fate" is separated from the term "plot" by a conjunction ("and"). We know that "and" is used to link different terms or concepts. If we still assume that "plot" is just a metaphor for "fate" here, the phrase "fate and plot" would be tautological—it would be like saying "fate and fate."
I don't know if you see what I mean, but the style of the sentence just doesn't allow for a metaphor anymore. Especially since the author also uses the plural ("things like..."). We can agree that "things" or "the" (in plural) are used to list multiple items, right? So, if you agree with that, you should be able to see my point: "things" and "and" are used here to talk about distinct concepts.
The meaning of the sentence is basically: "In the face of such a thing, things like fate (first thing) and plot (second thing) are nothing but a joke." You can see that it's not just "flowery language" in this specific context. I totally agree with you on the other parts you explained, but I also think that if we analyze this specific part, it's very difficult—if not impossible—to call it a "metaphor."

 

[Ruler_Star_Kuma]

Most of you I.D supporters have got to be so fake cause it's like the previous threads like this haven't been read on why plot stuff isn't valid (and there's STILL no mods actively agreeing with these takes)

Plus that Wandering Edge feat has its context cut off from what actually happened, and the op is awfully bolded, I'll comment more on why this thread is a hard disagreement in a bit.

 

[Ruler_Star_Kuma]

Yeah so with Hecker pretty much going over everything of why I disagree, I'll just handle the last thing.

Yoshifumi's Wandering Edge ability didn't hit Yogiri as seen here where Miss Fox counters the ability so it didn't attack baby Yogiri at all (going on to call that one of the worst things he'd have tried and done).

So yeah, hard disagree for Acausality 1 due to OP cropping out the related scans and context.

 

[LiewtiStar]

To be honest, I see your point, and you're right that in most cases, "plot" is used metaphorically to talk about fate. However, the thing is that by repeating the term "plot" (which feels like an anaphora to me), you can notice the author's tone eventually shifts. At a certain point, it’s no longer just a metaphor because that would make the text incoherent.
Take this sentence for example: "In the face of such a thing, things like fate and plot are nothing but a joke." This is the main part I’m basing my argument on. You can't really call it a metaphor here for a few reasons. First, the very structure of the sentence: the term "fate" is separated from the term "plot" by a conjunction ("and"). We know that "and" is used to link different terms or concepts. If we still assume that "plot" is just a metaphor for "fate" here, the phrase "fate and plot" would be tautological—it would be like saying "fate and fate."
I don't know if you see what I mean, but the style of the sentence just doesn't allow for a metaphor anymore. Especially since the author also uses the plural ("things like..."). We can agree that "things" or "the" (in plural) are used to list multiple items, right? So, if you agree with that, you should be able to see my point: "things" and "and" are used here to talk about distinct concepts.
The meaning of the sentence is basically: "In the face of such a thing, things like fate (first thing) and plot (second thing) are nothing but a joke." You can see that it's not just "flowery language" in this specific context. I totally agree with you on the other parts you explained, but I also think that if we analyze this specific part, it's very difficult—if not impossible—to call it a "metaphor."

Tbf this has been discussed already and it's getting repetitive.

Fate is the equivalent of "Karma" (iirc Sweet Dao mentionned it somewhere) aka consequences of cause and effect, then "Plot" are abilities that are Fate-based hence used to modify the futur or events in some extends. Which makes even more sense to say that since Yogiri is the final end beyond Fate/Destiny or whatever it was called

 

[sukuna171]

Yeah so with Hecker pretty much going over everything of why I disagree, I'll just handle the last thing.

Yoshifumi's Wandering Edge ability didn't hit Yogiri as seen here where Miss Fox counters the ability so it didn't attack baby Yogiri at all (going on to call that one of the worst things he'd have tried and done).

So yeah, hard disagree for Acausality 1 due to OP cropping out the related scans and context.

Acausality 1, maybe not entirely sure.

Spoiler

After all, the ultimate speed just means going backwards in time, right? But that wasn’t able to beat it either. It even stopped people from going back and trying to prevent it from being born. That’s why, no matter how powerful the god, they can’t do large-scale rewriting of the past. Any change that big might affect it. Those who didn’t understand that were erased for their hubris.

 

[Ruler_Star_Kuma]

Acausality 1, maybe not entirely sure.

Yeah there's multiple factors of why that mere portions of text is written that way and aca 1 is not at the top of the list, sadly.

'Yeah if you try changing anything that has to do with me then you die', either Yogiri's ability goes off or likely the true form detects it and just goes 'no'. That's not surefire.

This still doesn't even save everything else either cause now this means op is willing to either not read their scans at a low-end, or straight up cut off context for the scene as a whole/lie about scans at the worst end.

I had to download the ID volume for this, I don't even READ this series man.

 

[sukuna171]

Yeah there's multiple factors of why that mere portions of text is written that way and aca 1 is not at the top of the list, sadly.

'Yeah if you try changing anything that has to do with me then you die', either Yogiri's ability goes off or likely the true form detects it and just goes 'no'. That's not surefire.

This still doesn't even save everything else either cause now this means op is willing to either not read their scans at a low-end, or straight up cut off context for the scene as a whole/lie about scans at the worst end.

I had to download the ID volume for this, I don't even READ this series man.

Kind of what I thought, which is why I wasn’t sure—at best, maybe a speed feat or just plain time travel for gods.

 

[sukuna171]

Also, the plot is just a metaphor in ID.

Spoiler

Ahh, this has gotten a bit weird. I think we’ve gone in a meta direction,” Ende said.Ryoma’s deduction was a misunderstanding that Outers and those who learned about worldviews commonly fell into. Ende compared the various worldviews to stories herself, but to her, that was nothing but a metaphor. She had never thought that by thinking of the world as a fabrication, and yourself as a character in that world, that you could deny the world itself

 

[LiewtiStar]

Thanks to Sukuna, I will not get spoiled

 

[sukuna171]

Thanks to Sukuna, I will not get spoiled

Your welcome