UNDERTALE/DELTARUNE [shiny new] DISCUSSION THEAD

[EnderLord8]

To be honest, Undertale characters should scale to Touho's 2-C, via that official crossover art, then we wouldn't have to rely on calculations anymore.

 

[Echidnacodefan2512]

They are kinda literally happening

The player literally see them as images in a gallery

 

[Echidnacodefan2512]

They are kinda literally happening

The player literally see them as images in a gallery

Anyway since no one will see this deltarune literally have argument for a 1A because the player see entertainment and not a world or something that would affect them and we literally keep the world together because whem you die "the world" literally is covered in darkness same darkness that distorce the world itself like the fog

We also ignore the fact even datamined Is something inside the narrative due the voice lost in the code and also the fact made deal with the game itself (that probally is gaster deal)

I dint know why we just say the timelines being created through the prophecy story paradox

 

[Echidnacodefan2512]

Temporal paradox - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Deltarune: 4-A no more

Why is Deltarune 4-A Simple stuff. No one likes the rating anyway, but I'll still be competent and explain the whys and the know-hows. The Dark Fountains are said to have stars in them. Chapter 1. Chapter 2. Chapter 3. Chapter 4. The Titan is a living fountain, thus, it scales. I'm not dealing...

vsbattles.com

 

[Qurbonboev]

Ok, now I understand your logic. Still disagree though.
First

The Church still physically exists. The smoke is real. The distortion is real. No one's arguing the Dark World is pure imagination with zero substance. But here's the thing, the size of it, the scope of it, the very thing that gives it a 7-B rating in its own frame of reference, is compressed and diminished when viewed from outside. That's not a metaphysical claim, that's literally how the relationship between the two realities functions in canon.

Dark Worlds are (kind of) pocket dimensions. We rate pocket dimensions not by how big they look from outside, but how big they are inside.

Second:

A city-sized Dark World fits inside a room from the Light World's perspective. The energy, the scale, the dimensions, none of it bleeds through.

You are forgetting about elephant in the room. If there is too much darkness, Roaring starts and content, scale and energy of Dark World would leak into Light World. Examples being: Titans that retain their huge sizes in LW during Roaring(they def don't look like Church sized), Ralsei that would retain his powers and his "realness" in LW, and normal Darkners that would live in same plane of reality as Lightners(for short amount of time before turning into stone).
Creation of Titan in DW is just mini Roaring(imbalance of darkness that results in Titan appearance). Same way during Dark World content is real for LW, during this mini Roaring content of Dark World inside Dark World is real to original Dark World

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Ok, now I understand your logic. Still disagree though.
First

Dark Worlds are (kind of) pocket dimensions. We rate pocket dimensions not by how big they look from outside, but how big they are inside.

Unfortunately, this is sort of a strawman because I'm not saying we should judge/rate a pocket dimension from outside, I'm saying we should acknowledge the relationship between the outside and the inside.

Say a pocket dimension is Solar System level, and with a magic power, it's sealed inside a glass of water with a power that makes it fit inside of it.

What I'm claiming is, the pocket dimension still is 4-B, but carrying and breaking the cup does not qualify as 4-B. The cup is also not 4-B.

You are forgetting about elephant in the room. If there is too much darkness, Roaring starts and content, scale and energy of Dark World would leak into Light World. Examples being: Titans that retain their huge sizes in LW during Roaring(they def don't look like Church sized), Ralsei that would retain his powers and his "realness" in LW, and normal Darkners that would live in same plane of reality as Lightners(for short amount of time before turning into stone).

That would only imply the domain which the Dark World exists would cover the entire light world, this doesn't really change my argument.

Creation of Titan in DW is just mini Roaring(imbalance of darkness that results in Titan appearance). Same way during Dark World content is real for LW, during this mini Roaring content of Dark World inside Dark World is real to original Dark World

The contents of the Dark World don't become "real to the Light World" in the roaring, the Dark World just becomes so big and united that the Light World is no more.

 

[Qurbonboev]

What I'm claiming is, the pocket dimension still is 4-B, but carrying and breaking the cup does not qualify as 4-B. The cup is also not 4-B.

But being that embodies that solar system should obviously be 4-B

 

[GodlyCharmander]

But being that embodies that solar system should obviously be 4-B

Not if the pocket dimension is in a smaller reality from its perspective.

If the Solar System is the size of a pea, and functionally that small (meaning stepping on it would essentially just destroy it), it's hard to claim the 4-B scales upwards.

 

[Echidnacodefan2512]

Not if the pocket dimension is in a smaller reality from its perspective.

If the Solar System is the size of a pea, and functionally that small (meaning stepping on it would essentially just destroy it), it's hard to claim the 4-B scales upwards.

What if the pea invert back foward?

 

[Qurbonboev]

Not if the pocket dimension is in a smaller reality from its perspective.

If the Solar System is the size of a pea, and functionally that small (meaning stepping on it would essentially just destroy it), it's hard to claim the 4-B scales upwards.

BUt it doesn't apply to our scenario. If you step into DW, you would face giant Titan, which you can't destroy by stepping on it. . If Titan somehow (thanks to Roaring) manages to get out of DW, you face giant Titan who you can't destroy by stepping on it

 

[GodlyCharmander]

BUt it doesn't apply to our scenario. If you step into DW, you would face giant Titan, which you can't destroy by stepping on it. . If Titan somehow (thanks to Roaring) manages to get out of DW, you face giant Titan who you can't destroy by stepping on it

You'd actually get shrunk to the size of the world, that doesn't change the fact the outside is not holding or exerting thay much energy. Same to the Titan, its body exists outside of itself, and it holds a pocket dimension that's smaller inside of it.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

You'd actually get shrunk to the size of the world, that doesn't change the fact the outside is not holding or exerting thay much energy. Same to the Titan, its body exists outside of itself, and it holds a pocket dimension that's smaller inside of it.

Also I argue that, due to the nature of imagination and the inconsistent size of the Dark Worlds, which always change in spite of the room size, that Darkness is not a 1:1 with size scaling.

A small room like the Computer room can make a 30km dark world with a city.

A whole church can make a small dark world with a library and, well, a church.

The church obviously has more darkness to fill it up, but that's not scalable to size

 

[Echidnacodefan2512]

BUt it doesn't apply to our scenario. If you step into DW, you would face giant Titan, which you can't destroy by stepping on it. . If Titan somehow (thanks to Roaring) manages to get out of DW, you face giant Titan who you can't destroy by stepping on it

Kinda why the dark world isnt a lower dimension

Also I argue that, due to the nature of imagination and the inconsistent size of the Dark Worlds, which always change in spite of the room size, that Darkness is not a 1:1 with size scaling.

A small room like the Computer room can make a 30km dark world with a city.

A whole church can make a small dark world with a library and, well, a church.

The church obviously has more darkness to fill it up, but that's not scalable to size

That kinda implied expand endlessly as it can affect the photons in light world.

 

[Qurbonboev]

You'd actually get shrunk to the size of the world, that doesn't change the fact the outside is not holding or exerting thay much energy. Same to the Titan, its body exists outside of itself, and it holds a pocket dimension that's smaller inside of it.

Can you provide definite proof that characters actually get shrunk? And that DW don't actually hold and exert that energy

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Can you provide definite proof that characters actually get shrunk? And that DW don't actually hold and exert that energy

I guess not. It's never been explicitly stated, so definitive proof is not something I can provide. I can fully admit that. I'm trying to convince you through reasonable suspicion.

But we can infer that darkness and by extension, dark energy, does not necessarily create spaces, and that some form of alteration is made on their scale.

Each Dark World consists of the contents of the location where it was created, but can appear much bigger than the location's real size, for example, Card Kingdom's real-world anchor is just an unused classroom. The operative word is "appear."

The opening statement of Ralsei proves so by defining whatever is inside the Dark World is not real.

Ralsei explicitly reveals in Chapter 3 that the Dark World is an illusion, an alternate view on reality seen through the lens of shadow, with Darkners given form and identity by the perception of Lightners. The expanded size isn't physically real. It's perceptual.

That, and the fact the characters themselves have memories of one another WAY BEFORE DARK WORLDS WERE A THING, imply heavily that the darkness and the dark world don't fabricate worlds from scratch, it just acts as a portal to that version of the world. It makes things so dark you see darkness.

I also believe the inconsistent nature of Dark World-to-room ratio is definitive proof that the amount of darkness is not proportional to the size of the world, making darkness again, not scalable to sizes.

Ralsei himself describes Titans as "When the Fountain's power becomes too strong... When the flow of darkness roars wild... It makes... that. A Titan. It's the fear-of-dark. It's the bump-in-the-night. It's the shadow of the backside of your mind."
This also indicates that the Titan is a byproduct of the fountains as well, not necessarily the incarnation of a fountain itself.

Ralsei, who knows the entire prophecy, says, "if the Titan is anything like a fountain", you can seal it. This near-omniscient character when it comes to the Dark World says Titans are possibly similar to fountains. This wording implies Titans are made out of darkness from the fountains, but not fountains themselves.

 

[Echidnacodefan2512]

I guess not. It's never been explicitly stated, so definitive proof is not something I can provide. I can fully admit that. I'm trying to convince you through reasonable suspicion.

But we can infer that darkness and by extension, dark energy, does not necessarily create spaces, and that some form of alteration is made on their scale.

Each Dark World consists of the contents of the location where it was created, but can appear much bigger than the location's real size, for example, Card Kingdom's real-world anchor is just an unused classroom. The operative word is "appear."

The opening statement of Ralsei proves so by defining whatever is inside the Dark World is not real.

Ralsei explicitly reveals in Chapter 3 that the Dark World is an illusion, an alternate view on reality seen through the lens of shadow, with Darkners given form and identity by the perception of Lightners. The expanded size isn't physically real. It's perceptual.

That, and the fact the characters themselves have memories of one another WAY BEFORE DARK WORLDS WERE A THING, imply heavily that the darkness and the dark world don't fabricate worlds from scratch, it just acts as a portal to that version of the world. It makes things so dark you see darkness.

I also believe the inconsistent nature of Dark World-to-room ratio is definitive proof that the amount of darkness is not pThpcroportional to the size of the world, making darkness again, not scalable to sizes.

Ralsei himself describes Titans as "When the Fountain's power becomes too strong... When the flow of darkness roars wild... It makes... that. A Titan. It's the fear-of-dark. It's the bump-in-the-night. It's the shadow of the backside of your mind."
This also indicates that the Titan is a byproduct of the fountains as well, not necessarily the incarnation of a fountain itself.

Ralsei, who knows the entire prophecy, says, "if the Titan is anything like a fountain", you can seal it. This near-omniscient character when it comes to the Dark World says Titans are possibly similar to fountains. This wording implies Titans are made out of darkness from the fountains, but not fountains themselves.

This where is ralsei is lying tho.

Because the music is called "guardian" Meaning they arent a byproduct of the fountain but rather something that come from the earth stop you and even connection with echidna who is mother of monsters and i mean all of them as they even talking through you in code itself soo she is mother of ideas and concepts and it doesnt stop there because he soo scared about probability of another interpretation to happen (where the weird route happens) that he dosent explain to us due becoming a options for us.


Also ralsei dosent know the future or the prophecy itself due being interpretation of interpretation thus some information is just in nuace and Yes that means The player existence is a paradox due having no point of origin due having no original interpretation of the story itself.

 

[Randomuser3412]

Yeah, what echidna said

 

[Qurbonboev]

I guess not. It's never been explicitly stated, so definitive proof is not something I can provide. I can fully admit that. I'm trying to convince you through reasonable suspicion.

Don't bother. If Kris and Susie shrunk, they would soon realise that physics is not invariant regarding size(aka, raindrops would be bigger than them, and other funny things).

But we can infer that darkness and by extension, dark energy, does not necessarily create spaces,

They do. Dark Worlds are bigger than rooms that they are based on. Most straightforward explanation is that they expand space inside rooms.

Ralsei explicitly reveals in Chapter 3 that the Dark World is an illusion, an alternate view on reality seen through the lens of shadow, with Darkners given form and identity by the perception of Lightners. The expanded size isn't physically real. It's perceptual.

Yep, they are alternate view on reality.

The expanded size isn't physically real.

Titans(and their big size) are definitely physically real.

That, and the fact the characters themselves have memories of one another WAY BEFORE DARK WORLDS WERE A THING, imply heavily that the darkness and the dark world don't fabricate worlds from scratch, it just acts as a portal to that version of the world. It makes things so dark you see darkness.

Dark Fountains are made with determination, funny thing that allows to manipulate space time at will.

"Here is how I posit the Dark Worlds work in the most basic sense: for reasons that will become clearer throughout the essay, I believe that Darkness operates beyond the boundaries of space and time. When a Dark Fountain is generated, I think something peculiar happens: even though a Dark World can only take form with the appearance of a Dark Fountain in embodied space and time, the Darkness that it’s constructed from radiates out backwards in time, making it appear like it’s somehow “always existed” within its own internal logic. I also think Darkness can radiate out into the future, and across space, which is how denizens of one Dark World can become aware of or interact with Dark Worlds that haven’t even been created yet, or how Ralsei can seemingly teleport between Dark Worlds at will. The future being to some degree set in stone also happens to slot nicely in with Deltarune’s themes of predestination and fate."
From here

Ralsei, who knows the entire prophecy, says, "if the Titan is anything like a fountain", you can seal it. This near-omniscient character when it comes to the Dark World says Titans are possibly similar to fountains. This wording implies Titans are made out of darkness from the fountains, but not fountains themselves.

Believe me or not, I used this argument against Titan scaling to DW before. That was rejected pretty easily.
If someone says "If X is anything like a Y, we can beat it with A" and we actually manage to beat it with A, wording doesn't imply that X is not Y. Actually it implies that X is Y.

 

[Echidnacodefan2512]

Yeah, what echidna said

Tô honest she is everywhere even inside the battle board and dosent stop making this funny whem her husband IRL counter part is thypon

The same guy who was seald inside a mountain in the same way monsters do in undertale

And dont remind me about the meat factory because how gods i would need explain why there bodys parts in the beginning if the game.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Don't bother. If Kris and Susie shrunk, they would soon realise that physics is not invariant regarding size(aka, raindrops would be bigger than them, and other funny things).

The entire premise of the Dark World is that it operates under its own perceptual logic. Ralsei explicitly states the Dark World is an alternate view on reality seen through the lens of shadow, with Darkners given form and identity by the perception of Lightners. A world that fabricates cities from playing cards and Ferris wheels from wall posters does not have to follow real-world physics. Saying "they'd notice the rain is too big" assumes normal physics apply inside a perceptual illusion, which is the exact thing Ralsei tells you is not the case.

They do. Dark Worlds are bigger than rooms that they are based on. Most straightforward explanation is that they expand space inside rooms.

We have a canonical explanation, from Ralsei's own words. Darkness is merely replacing photons and allowing us to see an alternate reality, it's not expanding anything, things appear larger in size because that's how their reality looks, it's relies on the imagination of the creator of said word, it's entirely perceptual.

Yep, they are alternate view on reality.


Titans(and their big size) are definitely physically real.

Ralsei defines the Titan using the exact same imaginative, perceptual language he uses to define the Dark World itself. You cannot use the Titan as proof of physical reality when the game's own explanation of the Titan is rooted in imagined fear.

Dark Fountains are made with determination, funny thing that allows to manipulate space time at will.

"Here is how I posit the Dark Worlds work in the most basic sense: for reasons that will become clearer throughout the essay, I believe that Darkness operates beyond the boundaries of space and time. When a Dark Fountain is generated, I think something peculiar happens: even though a Dark World can only take form with the appearance of a Dark Fountain in embodied space and time, the Darkness that it’s constructed from radiates out backwards in time, making it appear like it’s somehow “always existed” within its own internal logic. I also think Darkness can radiate out into the future, and across space, which is how denizens of one Dark World can become aware of or interact with Dark Worlds that haven’t even been created yet, or how Ralsei can seemingly teleport between Dark Worlds at will. The future being to some degree set in stone also happens to slot nicely in with Deltarune’s themes of predestination and fate."
From here

This is the one that needs the most attention, because this is headcanon. What canon actually says about determination in Deltarune is that it is the "Power of Will" used to create Dark Fountains, by pouring it into a blade and striking the ground. That is it. That is the full extent of what the game tells you.

Believe me or not, I used this argument against Titan scaling to DW before. That was rejected pretty easily.
If someone says "If X is anything like a Y, we can beat it with A" and we actually manage to beat it with A, wording doesn't imply that X is not Y. Actually it implies that X is Y.

Ralsei saying "if the Titan is anything like a fountain, we can seal it from the inside" and then the party succeeding does confirm the sealing method worked. It does not confirm that a Titan is a fountain in the sense of sharing all its properties, including its dimensional scope. The Titan was sealed by entering it and shining the SOUL's light, which is how fountains are sealed. That confirms a functional similarity in one specific mechanic. It does not collapse the distinction between "made of fountain darkness" and "is a fountain" wholesale.

 

[Qurbonboev]

It does not collapse the distinction between "made of fountain darkness" and "is a fountain" wholesale.

It doesn't. But clearly implies that "Titan is a fountain".

Saying "they'd notice the rain is too big" assumes normal physics apply inside a perceptual illusion, which is the exact thing Ralsei tells you is not the case.

Normal physics apply inside DW. For example, Gravity works as normal. If they were actually shrunk apparent relative speed of free fall would be much faster. They'd notice the rain is too big, cus raindrops would be bigger than them.

And you are founding most of your arguments on Ralsei explanation. Clearly biased narrator who seeks to diminish his and other darkners experience. Something that Susie tries to beat her out. Game doesn't see darkners as just perceptual illusion, we shouldn't too.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

But clearly implies that "Titan is a fountain".

It implies the fountain and the titan share the same material and weaknesses.

Clearly biased narrator

His narration was factual.

The bias comes from the fact he rejects himself and emotional investments because of that fact.

Claiming Ralsei is lying just so he could diminish his value is incorrect. No, the fact all he's saying is true is the reason why he sees himself as lesser than Lightners. He's not real, Susie just doesn't care about that, and he's real "to her", the wording implying the nature of Ralsei is true, but it doesn't matter to her.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Kinda reminds me of how we enter the Greed Ring by going inside King Minos' mouth, but Minos isn't actually that big. Space is just non-euclidean in Hell.

 

[Qurbonboev]

Snip

Look, I don't wanna go in arounds.
Knight created fountain, fountain created Titan. Titan is empowered by Fountain darkness, same thing that causes its reality warping.
And no, what Fountain does isn't (just) perceptual manipulation, but reality warping(unless you think Fountain is going some high level genjutsu).
If Electricity in Dark World looks like electricity, behaves like electricity, and playing with this electricity fries your hands (like real electricity does) for most purposes it's real electricity. Same applies to everything else, including size of Dark World

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Look, I don't wanna go in arounds.
Knight created fountain, fountain created Titan. Titan is empowered by Fountain darkness, same thing that causes its reality warping.
And no, what Fountain does isn't (just) perceptual manipulation, but reality warping(unless you think Fountain is going some high level genjutsu).

Sure, I just claimed the scope is reduced from an outsider perspective. Darkness is not a measurable form of energy, and just because you're composed of "X" amount of darkness doesn't mean you can output "Y" amount of energy based on its amount.

If Electricity in Dark World looks like electricity, behaves like electricity, and playing with this electricity fries your hands (like real electricity does) for most purposes it's real electricity. Same applies to everything else, including size of Dark World

Its real while you're there. Sure.

 

[Qurbonboev]

Sure, I just claimed the scope is reduced from an outsider perspective

Why would outsider perspective be more relevant to us than any other?
From outsider perspective nothing can fall into black hole. Should we add into textbooks fact that black holes are frauds, that can't actually absorb anyone into themselves?

Its real while you're there. Sure.

Idk what exactly you are trying to imply. Berdly hands(?!) are still fried in LW, if you end fight against Queen with violence

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Why would outsider perspective be more relevant to us than any other?
From outsider perspective nothing can fall into black hole. Should we add into textbooks fact that black holes are frauds, that can't actually absorb anyone into themselves?

Because we're discussing whether or not the Titan's darkness scales to the dimension it has inside of itself. If the frame of reference is the same as LW to DW, the size of the dimensional is not real from its perspective.

Idk what exactly you are trying to imply. Berdly hands(?!) are still fried in LW, if you end fight against Queen with violence

Yes because your real body is transferred to this false reality and uses it as a basis, it transforms from your own determination, supposedly.

 

[Qurbonboev]

Sure, I just claimed the scope is reduced from an outsider perspective

Objectively wrong. From perspective of Susie and Kris(while they were inside LW yet) in chapter 1 DW inside closet was big, much bigger than any closet room. So yeah, from outsider perspective scope of DW is big.

Yes because your real body is transferred to this false reality and uses it as a basis, it transforms from your own determination, supposedly.

Your real body is transferred to "false" reality, yet it still retain injuries sustained in that "false" reality, like fried hand. Maybe, maybe DW shouldn't be considered "false" reality in relevant to us ways?

 

[Echidnacodefan2512]

Your real body is transferred to "false" reality, yet it still retain injuries sustained in that "false" reality, like fried hand. Maybe, maybe DW shouldn't be considered "false" reality in relevant to us ways?

And they arent false due monsters still having magic in thier own bodys and it react to it whem they fall inside the Dark World thus increasing.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Objectively wrong. From perspective of Susie and Kris(while they were inside LW yet) in chapter 1 DW inside closet was big, much bigger than any closet room. So yeah, from outsider perspective scope of DW is big.

They already were inside the dark world.

You immediately return to it just by crossing over the door

Your real body is transferred to "false" reality, yet it still retain injuries sustained in that "false" reality, like fried hand. Maybe, maybe DW shouldn't be considered "false" reality in relevant to us ways?

This is a non-sequitur. The injury transfer does not prove dimensional equivalence. It proves that your body is the same body. That's it. That's the full implication.

Think about what the injury transfer actually demonstrates mechanically. Berdly's hand gets fried in the Dark World. His hand in the Light World is fried. What does that tell you? It tells you his hand is the same hand. His nervous system is continuous across the transition. His biological matter did not get duplicated. He brought his actual body into a perceptual space, and that body sustained real damage, because it was a real body the whole time.

It proves the Dark World can act on physical matter. It does not prove the Dark World's city-scale dimensions are exerting city-scale energy outward into the Light World room that contains it. Those are just not the same claim. Ralsei says it is an alternate view on reality through the lens of shadow. The size is part of that view. The body inside it is not a view, it is a real object. So what you actually have is a real object experiencing a perceptual space. The real object can be hurt. The perceptual space is still perceptual.

Why is Berdly not crystalized or inside of an ice block in Snowgrave Route when we go back to the light world and just mildly cold and unconscious?

Better question, why can LW HP be transferred to DW HP, but the opposite isn't possible?

Perhaps, and this is just a conclusion on my interpretation, all effects we feel on the dark world are placebo. Ralsei quite literally says if we eat in the Dark World, we won't be full when we return. It's placebo.

Berdly's immersion was so strong in both scenarios that his arm and his body reacted like it was real, even though it was not.

 

[Echidnacodefan2512]

They already were inside the dark world.

You immediately return to it just by crossing over the door

This is a non-sequitur. The injury transfer does not prove dimensional equivalence. It proves that your body is the same body. That's it. That's the full implication.

That just mean they enter the dark world they change to being close to thier origin as such

Think about what the injury transfer actually demonstrates mechanically. Berdly's hand gets fried in the Dark World. His hand in the Light World is fried. What does that tell you? It tells you his hand is the same hand. His nervous system is continuous across the transition. His biological matter did not get duplicated. He brought his actual body into a perceptual space, and that body sustained real damage, because it was a real body the whole time.

Technically speaking hurt his kokoro (mind, body and soul)

It proves the Dark World can act on physical matter. It does not prove the Dark World's city-scale dimensions are exerting city-scale energy outward into the Light World room that contains it. Those are just not the same claim. Ralsei says it is an alternate view on reality through the lens of shadow. The size is part of that view. The body inside it is not a view, it is a real object. So what you actually have is a real object experiencing a perceptual space. The real object can be hurt. The perceptual space is still perceptual.

Big problem with that is the light world itself since they still follow a game logic meaning they are more realated to that percetual place them a reality.

Why is Berdly not crystalized or inside of an ice block in Snowgrave Route when we go back to the light world and just mildly cold and unconscious?

"Why is Berdly not crystalized or inside of an ice block in Snowgrave Route when we go back to the light world and just mildly cold and unconscious?"

Because noelle ice is something that affect you through aura....The same way as her mother do
It something that affect your will.

Better question, why can LW HP be transferred to DW HP, but the opposite isn't possible?

Perhaps, and this is just a conclusion on my interpretation, all effects we feel on the dark world are placebo. Ralsei quite literally says if we eat in the Dark World, we won't be full when we return. It's placebo.

Berdly's immersion was so strong in both scenarios that his arm and his body reacted like it was real, even though it was not.

Because Dw hp is fake hp but at same time same fake hp can increase by sealing a fountain (likely killing that titan before they are born) a similar effect whem you kill a monster

Perhaps it a fusion of perception + reality warping due torn ring still have thier magic effect in light world but can only be used if noelle can perceive such object as real to her (like a trauma creating a real physical effect in the light world) it kinda remind the bootstrap paradox theory fir kris since they can only enter inside eggman room if they now know how

 

[Qurbonboev]

They already were inside the dark world.

No. When Kris and Susie are in Dark World they outfit changes. During this moment they are still inside Light World(as indicated by them still having normal outfit), but they already can see that closet is abnormally big. They are probably in boundary between LW and DW here.

The injury transfer does not prove dimensional equivalence

Dimensional equivalence is default, you are one that needs to disprove it.

It proves the Dark World can act on physical matter. It does not prove the Dark World's city-scale dimensions are exerting city-scale energy outward into the Light World room that contains it. Those are just not the same claim. Ralsei says it is an alternate view on reality through the lens of shadow. The size is part of that view. The body inside it is not a view, it is a real object. So what you actually have is a real object experiencing a perceptual space. The real object can be hurt. The perceptual space is still perceptual.

You have unhealthy obsession with word "perceptual space". Purely perceptual space can't interact directly with physical matter, it can do it indirectly through perception. Perceptual space can't fry your hand, or freeze your body.

Why is Berdly not crystalized or inside of an ice block in Snowgrave Route when we go back to the light world and just mildly cold and unconscious?

After sealing DW, you transfer Berdly body back to Light World, not everything else attached to it.

Perhaps, and this is just a conclusion on my interpretation, all effects we feel on the dark world are placebo.

1. Placebo effect isn't real. It's mostly regression to the mean, plus some other small factors.

Berdly's immersion was so strong in both scenarios that his arm and his body reacted like it was real, even though it was not.

No amount of immersion can do this to such level.

Ralsei quite literally says if we eat in the Dark World, we won't be full when we return. It's placebo.

DW food can't sustain Lightners, but it can sustain Darkners

 

[GodlyCharmander]

No. When Kris and Susie are in Dark World they outfit changes. During this moment they are still inside Light World(as indicated by them still having normal outfit), but they already can see that closet is abnormally big. They are probably in boundary between LW and DW here.

The only thing that would cause this would be the darkness of the dark world, which they were inside. From that moment on, just stepping inside the door would cause them to go the DW. It's Chapter 1, chalk it up to suspense. They were inside the Dark World, and using that moment in isolation is not a good argument.

Dimensional equivalence is default, you are one that needs to disprove it.

Ralsei's speech. We went over this. It essentially states the DW is not real, that's the best evidence I could've asked for.

You have unhealthy obsession with word "perceptual space". Purely perceptual space can't interact directly with physical matter, it can do it indirectly through perception. Perceptual space can't fry your hand, or freeze your body.

His body isn't actually frozen.

If we're talking about a term, and that term is identified as "X", I will end up citing "X" a lot. It's a perceptual space because they are still inside the room, only perceiving another reality. That doesn't mean they can't interact with it, they are transferred to it.

After sealing DW, you transfer Berdly body back to Light World, not everything else attached to it.

Once it's sealed, his body is in the same place by default, we don't get him out of the ice, that's never stated. We leave him in the ice, seal the fountain without even coming back, and his body is not inside ice.

That alone should support the idea of the imagination/events in this world being only a placebo of sorts.

1. Placebo effect isn't real. It's mostly regression to the mean, plus some other small factors.

Fiction can still use the concept like it is real. And many people believe it is, so one could simply write a story with it. (there have been stories that treat it as real)

No amount of immersion can do this to such level.

That's really appeal to realism, we're dealing with magic here. If Toby decides so, then yes, it can achieve such level.

DW food can't sustain Lightners, but it can sustain Darkners

The point is that it couldn't sustain Lightners once they return to the real world, indication nothing they do there really matter to their physical bodies, outside the things their own minds can do to their bodies.

You can't say phrases like "you can eat but it won't matter", or "nothing I eat here matters" by Susie, and that "everything is turned into a fantasy" by Ralsei don't all indicate that events, dimensions, and sizes of the Dark World are just fantasies and a reflection of the user's imagination, I believe the case is pretty solid, no? The HP thing too, only going one way. You can't ever seriously injure the flesh of a Lightner in the Dark World, once they are back, their hand will hurt, but there will be no bleeding.

 

[Echidnacodefan2512]

Dimensional equivalence is default, you are one that needs to disprove it.

You have unhealthy obsession with word "perceptual space". Purely perceptual space can't interact directly with physical matter, it can do it indirectly through perception. Perceptual space can't fry your hand, or freeze your body.

I think the biggest thing to this is the egg

"Not too important, not too unimportant."

 

[Qurbonboev]

It's Chapter 1, chalk it up to suspense.

Non argument

It essentially states the DW is not real, that's the best evidence I could've asked for.

Again, DW is alternative view on reality. It's reality warped by darkness.

His body isn't actually frozen.

His body wasn't technically frozen in DW. It was only encased in ice

That's really appeal to realism, we're dealing with magic here

Yeah, it's dealing of magic. Magic that warps reality to make something to happen. If magic caused someone to fall ill, there are two explanations:
1. Magic made them ill
2. Magic made them believe that they are ill.
Almost in all circumstances explanation 1 is preferred.

You can't say phrases like "you can eat but it won't matter", or "nothing I eat here matters" by Susie, and that "everything is turned into a fantasy" by Ralsei don't all indicate that events, dimensions, and sizes of the Dark World are just fantasies and a reflection of the user's imagination, I believe the case is pretty solid, no?

There is huge distinction between "this is fantasy world" and "this is fantasy world, so everything here is just perceptual illusion".

Can you please repeat why exactly you don't think Titans being able to roam surface of actual Earth freely during Roaring and causes immense destruction is huge antifeat to whole idea of Dark Worlds being just

 

[Qurbonboev]

Eh, if anything, we can probably get a more balanced scaling. The way the verse is polished outside of its scaling is a benefit since it means we only have to change ratings.

Thanks btw

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Thanks btw

No prob. Some calcs are getting reviewed, but on the side of hax and overall polish, it's amazing.

 

[Edutyn]

Calc is done, i think?

 

[IDK3465]

Anyway… uh, here’s my calc