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UNDERTALE/DELTARUNE [shiny new] DISCUSSION THEAD

It's more so about the constant output, unleashing 7-B energy endlessly and constantly. Titan can output some attacks on that level, not to mention he is born from 5 fountains, but those who scale from him would only have part of that output and could only unleash it to a limited degree.
Actually think it's cause we treat reality warping = AP value of destroying that place.
Cause Fountains don't create cities molecule by molecule or whatever, they just remove the light in an area to the point of darkness darker than dark with the photon readings being negative, which turns that area into a Dark World.
 
Next thread is hopefully gonna shutdown the whole idea behind that calc anyways.

Apart from me hating the god tiers scaling, I really hate how both Undertale and Deltarune is trying to run it's whole rest of the scaling via abusing Kinetic Energy in (frankly) wrong speeds anyways.
My goat from making muppettale the dead AU to killing Undertale on VSBW. (Hi, it's me, Trader)
 
but even that doesn't really work given the whole deal with Berdly and Tenna getting damage in also the Light World if they're hurt to a fatal degree in the Dark World (can't really get physically harmed from your imagination after all).

About this. Berdly and Tenna are both existing in the same layer of reality when they get injured, so that damage translates to the Light World. It's only imaginary to people outside the Dark World, not to them. So, this wouldn't really change how the relationship between realities work imo. But good point nonetheless.
 
But verse equalization only really applies to crossbattles. You can't really use that for scaling the verse itself, I don't think.

When profiles are made, yes, we consider the reality they are in as the frame of reference for feats.

But we cannot say the relationship between these realities in canon fall under verse equalization. Does that make sense? Because, yes, to the light world, the Dark World is a 11-C reality.
Like, this is true, right? It's how the relationship works, that holds true. We classify the Dark World as 7-B from its perspective. Technically the light world is, like, Low 1-A from their perspective. Or something like that-

So that's the point I'm making, from the titan's perspective, since the dark world exists in a lesser version of reality inside of it, it's containing another layer of an 11-C reality (from its perspective), it's only 7-B if you enter the fountain. Which is why I think scaling to its internal size doesn't work for the Titan, from its perspective, the reality it holds is imaginary.
The issue is that if we take this kind of stuff, then verses like Omori just cannot be quantified because it's all just imaginary, so statements about planets, universes, etc. would be thrown away.

We apply that for pretty much everything, both in-verse and cross-verse, you'd have to revise the standards for that to even be a debate.
 
Next thread is hopefully gonna shutdown the whole idea behind that calc anyways.

Apart from me hating the god tiers scaling, I really hate how both Undertale and Deltarune is trying to run it's whole rest of the scaling via abusing Kinetic Energy in (frankly) wrong speeds anyways.
Eh, if anything, we can probably get a more balanced scaling. The way the verse is polished outside of its scaling is a benefit since it means we only have to change ratings.
 
My goat from making muppettale the dead AU to killing Undertale on VSBW. (Hi, it's me, Trader)
Feels the aura 🥹
Supp

Eh, if anything, we can probably get a more balanced scaling. The way the verse is polished outside of its scaling is a benefit since it means we only have to change ratings.
I forgot to tell you on cord how I plan the verse to be after all the threads, check dms.
 
Next thread is hopefully gonna shutdown the whole idea behind that calc anyways.

Apart from me hating the god tiers scaling, I really hate how both Undertale and Deltarune is trying to run it's whole rest of the scaling via abusing Kinetic Energy in (frankly) wrong speeds anyways.
vD3vpmL.png


Thought like, doesn't the scope of this go beyond UT? Nearly every single moon bust ends up at 5-A and higher lol
 
The issue is that if we take this kind of stuff, then verses like Omori just cannot be quantified because it's all just imaginary, so statements about planets, universes, etc. would be thrown away.

We apply that for pretty much everything, both in-verse and cross-verse, you'd have to revise the standards for that to even be a debate.
You're misunderstanding what I mean.

Omori can be scaled even with that logic because we use the imaginary universe as the frame of reference for feats and its reality.

We do the same with Deltarune already.

The Light World is objectively a higher reality to Dark World. The reason why it's not Low 1-A, Low 1-C, whatever, is because we change the frame of reference to the Light World itself, and now it becomes the baseline of reality to measure feats.

When we make Dark World profiles, we change it so the Dark World is the frame of reference for feats, and the baseline of reality.

That means:

- Light World is 9-A, and Dark World is 7-B, despite the fact Light World sees Dark World as 11-C.

My point is, despite both having their own reality as a baseline for profiles, we can still acknowledge their relationship in canon.

I'm trying to explain how I'm thinking, I'm not sure if I'm wording this correctly.

But the Titan's internal dark world scales to 7-B. That's true. No one is contesting that. However, from outside the dark world, that 7-B is perceived and treated as 11-C, so the Titan itself is not really yielding energy from its own reality, but from an imaginary one.

Using Omori as a reference. Their imaginary universe is superhuman, but once we return to reality, that rating changes to 11-C from their perspective.
 
Guys, I think Echidna might be Half Bread Chaos
Nha i want remind you guys that monsters still have magic in light world

Same magic increase whem you fall inside a dark world

It also explain why susie is able to shine a option on the player menu

Because Even the light world isnt real

Oh and about the kinetic energy thing we kinda already do that by pressing the button increase susie rude buster attack
 
You're misunderstanding what I mean.

Omori can be scaled even with that logic because we use the imaginary universe as the frame of reference for feats and its reality.

We do the same with Deltarune already.

The Light World is objectively a higher reality to Dark World. The reason why it's not Low 1-A, Low 1-C, whatever, is because we change the frame of reference to the Light World itself, and now it becomes the baseline of reality to measure feats.

When we make Dark World profiles, we change it so the Dark World is the frame of reference for feats, and the baseline of reality.

That means:

- Light World is 9-A, and Dark World is 7-B, despite the fact Light World sees Dark World as 11-C.

My point is, despite both having their own reality as a baseline for profiles, we can still acknowledge their relationship in canon.

I'm trying to explain how I'm thinking, I'm not sure if I'm wording this correctly.

But the Titan's internal dark world scales to 7-B. That's true. No one is contesting that. However, from outside the dark world, that 7-B is perceived and treated as 11-C, so the Titan itself is not really yielding energy from its own reality, but from an imaginary one.

Using Omori as a reference. Their imaginary universe is superhuman, but once we return to reality, that rating changes to 11-C from their perspective.
Can anyone else like, tell me if I'm making any sense? I'm terrible at explaining things 😭
 
Can anyone else like, tell me if I'm making any sense? I'm terrible at explaining things 😭

With basic words it this.

Monster still have a imaginary energy in deltarune that kinda even why fire Monsters can exist

The world is also implied to be not real due the pink and yellow motif (both are used in the light world and dark to stop you from going out of bounds)

We kinda literally have entity that speak to you inside the code and same entity is getting reference in the dark world.
 
Thought like, doesn't the scope of this go beyond UT? Nearly every single moon bust ends up at 5-A and higher lol
Alot of verses do it aswell yea, but UT/DT is probably the ones I've seen abuse it the most. Go look at all the calcs in deltarune. I counted them for this:
There's 26 of them (even counting supporting ones) and 13 of them are Kinetic Energy.

Without kinetic energy I kid you not the highest feat other than Titan's PE is Large Building level+ 7.28 Tons via Tenna heating up the room (which even that I think there's some issues)

This is a verse's where supposedly the low tiers are MCB and mid-high tiers are Small Town yet not a single feat other than the PE from one of the strongest of the entire verse isn't above Large Building without carried by "moving in tandem with" something fast (which is something I hate), alongside the fact that the speed itself for the attacks is ridiclously wrong but I won't go that far into it here, the thread will talk about it entirely.
 
Omori can be scaled even with that logic because we use the imaginary universe as the frame of reference for feats and its reality.

We do the same with Deltarune already.
So you just... apply double standards here or something?
The Light World is objectively a higher reality to Dark World. The reason why it's not Low 1-A, Low 1-C, whatever, is because we change the frame of reference to the Light World itself, and now it becomes the baseline of reality to measure feats.
In actuality... no. It's because it's not transcendent to the Dark World akin to being able to completely be capable of manipulating it, thinking it out of existence and stuff. They're even reffered as sides of the same coin.
That means:

- Light World is 9-A, and Dark World is 7-B, despite the fact Light World sees Dark World as 11-C.

My point is, despite both having their own reality as a baseline for profiles, we can still acknowledge their relationship in canon.

I'm trying to explain how I'm thinking, I'm not sure if I'm wording this correctly.

But the Titan's internal dark world scales to 7-B. That's true. No one is contesting that. However, from outside the dark world, that 7-B is perceived and treated as 11-C, so the Titan itself is not really yielding energy from its own reality, but from an imaginary one.

Using Omori as a reference. Their imaginary universe is superhuman, but once we return to reality, that rating changes to 11-C from their perspective.
This entire thing is high-key useless because the Titan is originating from the Dark World, so it is indeed its own reality.

We no longer treat R>Fs as any tier by default, we do if there's a minimal piece of evidence for any transcendence to be involved, this is why the Player from OFF was downgraded from Low 1-C to unknown.
About this. Berdly and Tenna are both existing in the same layer of reality when they get injured, so that damage translates to the Light World. It's only imaginary to people outside the Dark World, not to them. So, this wouldn't really change how the relationship between realities work imo. But good point nonetheless.
The issue is that you cannot really "transfer" imaginary damage to your physical self, if you're having an imaginary fight in your mind those injuries obviously do not translate to your real body.

The term of illusion here does not mean literal imagination or nonexistence (otherwise Ch 1 becomes stupid given that it's just Kris and Susie playing with toys in a room for over 8 hours), but it's more a way to change the nature of that place by making it so dark that its reality basically becomes obscured.

This is why places like the Church emanate smoke, because they're physically still there, but distorted like the HTC. It's clear that the Dark Worlds have some physicality involved, because you cannot make a place literally imaginary unless you just erase it from existence.
 
Alot of verses do it aswell yea, but UT/DT is probably the ones I've seen abuse it the most. Go look at all the calcs in deltarune. I counted them for this:
There's 26 of them (even counting supporting ones) and 13 of them are Kinetic Energy.

Without kinetic energy I kid you not the highest feat other than Titan's PE is Large Building level+ 7.28 Tons via Tenna heating up the room (which even that I think there's some issues)

This is a verse's where supposedly the low tiers are MCB and mid-high tiers are Small Town yet not a single feat other than the PE from one of the strongest of the entire verse isn't above Large Building without carried by "moving in tandem with" something fast (which is something I hate), alongside the fact that the speed itself for the attacks is ridiclously wrong but I won't go that far into it here, the thread will talk about it entirely.
Deltarune technically does use KE a lot more than Undertale, but it seems to still be a lot better off even without the ridiculous KE feats.
 
This is why places like the Church emanate smoke, because they're physically still there, but distorted like the HTC. It's clear that the Dark Worlds have some physicality involved, because you cannot make a place literally imaginary unless you just erase it from existence.

Soo how we going explaining the egg rooms ? because they are erased after you get the egg
 
So you just... apply double standards here or something?
What.

Verse equalization is a tool for cross-verse comparison. It is not a definitional framework for how realities relate to each other within a verse. I'm not applying double standards, I'm using the right tool.
In actuality... no. It's because it's not transcendent to the Dark World akin to being able to completely be capable of manipulating it, thinking it out of existence and stuff. They're even reffered as sides of the same coin.
The Light World doesn't need to be transcendent over the Dark World in the metaphysical, Low 1-C sense for my point to hold. It just needs to functionally ignore the scope of the Dark World, and it does. A city-sized Dark World fits inside a room from the Light World's perspective. The energy, the scale, the dimensions, none of it bleeds through. That's not transcendence, that's just how the relationship canonically works.
This entire thing is high-key useless because the Titan is originating from the Dark World, so it is indeed its own reality.
The Dark World inside the Titan is a second layer. It's a lesser reality nested within the Titan's own reality. The Titan is native to the Dark World, yes, but the dark world it contains inside itself is subordinate even to that. It's not the same layer. It's deeper. And if we're not granting the Titan city-sized scale from that internal dimension, then that 7-B simply doesn't transfer upward.
If you disagree with that internal dimension existing at all, then it's not 7-B either. We agree on the conclusion either way.
We no longer treat R>Fs as any tier by default, we do if there's a minimal piece of evidence for any transcendence to be involved, this is why the Player from OFF was downgraded from Low 1-C to unknown.
The frame of reference point isn't the core of my argument, it's just context. What I'm establishing is simple: there is a canonical, demonstrable difference in scale between these two realities. 7-B in the Dark World is objectively, provably smaller from the Light World's perspective. That difference exists in canon. And that difference matters when we're asking what the Titan itself existing in the Dark World actually contains
The issue is that you cannot really "transfer" imaginary damage to your physical self, if you're having an imaginary fight in your mind those injuries obviously do not translate to your real body.

The term of illusion here does not mean literal imagination or nonexistence (otherwise Ch 1 becomes stupid given that it's just Kris and Susie playing with toys in a room for over 8 hours), but it's more a way to change the nature of that place by making it so dark that its reality basically becomes obscured.

This is why places like the Church emanate smoke, because they're physically still there, but distorted like the HTC. It's clear that the Dark Worlds have some physicality involved, because you cannot make a place literally imaginary unless you just erase it from existence.
But that physicality and scale, and scale is the entire basis of the rating, is far smaller from an outsider perspective.

The Church still physically exists. The smoke is real. The distortion is real. No one's arguing the Dark World is pure imagination with zero substance. But here's the thing, the size of it, the scope of it, the very thing that gives it a 7-B rating in its own frame of reference, is compressed and diminished when viewed from outside. That's not a metaphysical claim, that's literally how the relationship between the two realities functions in canon.

The Dark World inside the Titan is real. It's just not Titan-sized real. The Titan doesn't get to inherit those 7-B dimensions because from its own layer of reality, it's holding something far, far smaller than that.
 
Then you did not make the point clear enough 🗿

I thought you meant that the Dark World where the Fun Gang is in is not 7-B or sum.
 
What.

Verse equalization is a tool for cross-verse comparison. It is not a definitional framework for how realities relate to each other within a verse. I'm not applying double standards, I'm using the right tool.

The Light World doesn't need to be transcendent over the Dark World in the metaphysical, Low 1-C sense for my point to hold. It just needs to functionally ignore the scope of the Dark World, and it does. A city-sized Dark World fits inside a room from the Light World's perspective. The energy, the scale, the dimensions, none of it bleeds through. That's not transcendence, that's just how the relationship canonically works.

The Dark World inside the Titan is a second layer. It's a lesser reality nested within the Titan's own reality. The Titan is native to the Dark World, yes, but the dark world it contains inside itself is subordinate even to that. It's not the same layer. It's deeper. And if we're not granting the Titan city-sized scale from that internal dimension, then that 7-B simply doesn't transfer upward.
If you disagree with that internal dimension existing at all, then it's not 7-B either. We agree on the conclusion either way.

The frame of reference point isn't the core of my argument, it's just context. What I'm establishing is simple: there is a canonical, demonstrable difference in scale between these two realities. 7-B in the Dark World is objectively, provably smaller from the Light World's perspective. That difference exists in canon. And that difference matters when we're asking what the Titan itself existing in the Dark World actually contains

But that physicality and scale, and scale is the entire basis of the rating, is far smaller from an outsider perspective.

The Church still physically exists. The smoke is real. The distortion is real. No one's arguing the Dark World is pure imagination with zero substance. But here's the thing, the size of it, the scope of it, the very thing that gives it a 7-B rating in its own frame of reference, is compressed and diminished when viewed from outside. That's not a metaphysical claim, that's literally how the relationship between the two realities functions in canon.

The Dark World inside the Titan is real. It's just not Titan-sized real. The Titan doesn't get to inherit those 7-B dimensions because from its own layer of reality, it's holding something far, far smaller than that.
Okay but how you going explain darkness ? We quite literally have this and it about the prophecy.

images
 
UTDR not qualifying for KE unlike Ultrakill is 🗿
Ultrakill's whole reason for even being Tier 7 is the spam of "KE of dude moving in tandem with X", otherwise it's 8-A via Minos' PE.
Ultrakill is wanked as shit tho. A lesser angel being stronger than Minos's corpse still pisses me off. The verse shouldn't go beyond 8-B/8-A and 90% of the verse is capped under terminal velocity
It's not a good example. You have all the rights to attempt a downgrade
 
Then you did not make the point clear enough 🗿

I thought you meant that the Dark World where the Fun Gang is in is not 7-B or sum.
Brother I'm dumb, I suck at expressing myself and my English is worse than it was 5 years ago 😭

Nah, I meant the Titan shouldn't scale to 7-B just for being a fountain, which, uh, well, I have my problems with even calling the Titan's full on fountains, but that's a story for another day.
 
Brother I'm dumb, I suck at expressing myself and my English is worse than it was 5 years ago 😭

Nah, I meant the Titan shouldn't scale to 7-B just for being a fountain, which, uh, well, I have my problems with even calling the Titan's full on fountains, but that's a story for another day.
We kinda literally have stars somehow in tenna Dark world and bunch skys arguments ?
 
Me when the stars completely disappear when I move up and slightly to the right

YEAAAAAAH, also Ralsei literally calls this place a studio, and Tenna made the snow part, etc etc. It's a studio, it's a skybox, glad we already know the arguments against it.
 
Ultrakill is wanked as shit tho. A lesser angel being stronger than Minos's corpse still pisses me off. The verse shouldn't go beyond 8-B/8-A and 90% of the verse is capped under terminal velocity
It's not a good example. You have all the rights to attempt a downgrade
I have a full time job that rn is keeping me away from home for 12 hours per day besides the weekends (including travels from home), and during weekends I can confidently say that Ultrakill is not my top priority.

Like, if y'all want to downgrade Ultrakill first just to prove a point, do so ig, if you have more time than I do.
 
Me when the stars completely disappear when I move up and slightly to the right

This specific scene choice is probably the worst example to pick because everything that is not the fountain gets blotted out by darkness.
EDIT: nvm I thought you were referring to the moment when the screen shifts over to reveal the Knight
 
This specific scene choice is probably the worst example to pick because everything that is not the fountain gets blotted out by darkness.
EDIT: nvm I thought you were referring to the moment when the screen shifts over to reveal the Knight
It cuts off before the fountain.
 
I have a full time job that rn is keeping me away from home for 12 hours per day besides the weekends (including travels from home), and during weekends I can confidently say that Ultrakill is not my top priority.

Like, if y'all want to downgrade Ultrakill first just to prove a point, do so ig, if you have more time than I do.
Okay? I'm not saying that you need to downgrade Ultrakill, I'm saying that the verse that used as an example is flawed too. That's about it.
 
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