Tokyo Revengers - Speed Cap

[Vzearr]

This thread has been approved and will be supervised by big Reiner himself.

Is The Anime Canon?​

The Tokyo Revengers anime is faithful to the Tokyo Revengers manga, except in one case in season 3, where they change Smiley vs Kakucho to Takemichi vs Kakucho. Which is the only scene changed from the manga? Now, with that being said. Is the Anime actually canon?

Here are is a source that shows Ken Wakui supervised the anime. However, there is no actual official evidence that Wakui heavily supervised the anime, due to limited interviews with him. The interviews with him talk nil about the anime. Our Canonicity page places a heavy emphasis on explicit confirmation of continuity, as per this thread. While the threads main aim is to prevent misuse of author approval as a substitute for canon material, the current framework of it brings in a completely separate issue: it undervalues consistent adaptations, especially in verses lacking external statements. Like Tokyo Revengers.

The standards state that:

Author approval alone does not confer canonical status upon adaptations

Which is, of course, reasonable in some cases; but it implies the following:

In the absence of confirmation, adaptation material is treated as non-canon or tertiary, regardless of consistency or supervision.

Which presupposes that all verses have access to

• Interviews
• Databooks
• Author Q&As
• Explicit canon statements

Which is why we come to this part of the page. Tokyo Revengers does not have the sufficient, Interviews, and canon statements to be concluded as Canon. However, in the absence of explicit contradictions and given the anime’s consistency with the manga under Wakui's supervision, Tokyo Revengers should reasonably be treated as canon rather than dismissed solely due to a lack of formal statements.

Are Tokyo Revengers Characters Faster Than Guns?​

The plain and simple answer- Yes.

What Are The Arguments Against?​

Here is why people believe Tokyo Revengers characters are slower than guns.

Izana is using a gun to treat Mikey (Chapter 175)

Kakucho, while being injured, needed to be saved from bullets (Chapter 176-177)

Draken calls guns "dangerous weapons." Chapter 221)

High tiers need motorbikes to chase other motorbikes.

Senju and Takemichi freaked out and needed to be saved from guns, Draken saves them, but dies in the next chapter from the same bullets (chapter 220-221)

Now What Are The Arguments For?​

Now, why aren't they actually slower then guns?

I think the argument may be misidentifying what bullets represent within the context of the verse. You’re treating bullets as an absolute scaling constant-... A hard cap, when they are actually just objects within specific situations by low tiers. For a bullet to function as a hard cap, you would need to establish a presupposed outcome that it holds a specific necessity across all states of the fights. That is, bullets would have to be a necessary limiter for the top tiers, not just something that appears in some interactions with low tiers, and goons. You have not shown that guns consistently act as limiting factors across relevant characters. Without that consistency, you cannot generalize the interactions between characters into a universal scaling rule for TR. No such grounding is provided by anyone... There is also no justification for the leap, so the leap from "bullets exist and are dangerous to higher tiers" to "bullets cap the verse" is unjustified. For bullets to act as a speed cap, they must consistently function as a limiting factor across characters who scale to top tiers. If their effectiveness varies depending on context, they cannot be used as a universal cap, inherently.

This is the type of syllogism the opposition is attempting.

Premise 1: Bullets are dangerous to characters.

Premise 2: Dangerous things can harm characters.

Conclusion: Therefore, bullets define the upper limit of character speed.

This doesn't work at a fundamental level because "danger" is a property of lethality, not of said speed hierarchy. It's creating an equivocation. A correct conclusion cannot be derived from those premises. So the conclusion doesn’t necessarily follow from those premises.

The Izana gun feat completely crumbled under modal rules, learn about em' here. For one, Izana in the moment was hallucinating and delusional, making the position that he's slower than bullet's less likely. The hidden assumption is also that using a gun implies necessity: i.e., Izana must rely on the gun because he cannot operate above its level. This relies on an unsupported presupposed conclusion; using a gun does not imply it was necessary, only that it was one possible action. The existence of an action does not imply it is necessary. A valid structure would be:

Premise 1: If an action is necessary, then it must be the only viable means to achieve a non-presupposed outcome.

Premise 2: Izana used a gun.

Conclusion: Therefore, the gun was necessary.

This is invalid because Premise 2 does not establish a necessary conclusion, only a necessary possibility. Therefore, no scaling conclusion follows. Izana was delusional and hallucinating, making the PSR here insufficient on your end. So, let's use PSR. My syllogism would be:

Premise 1: Using a weapon does not imply reliance due to inferiority.

Premise 2: No evidence shows the gun was required due to speed limitations.

Conclusion: The scene cannot be used to cap speed.

For the hallucination:

Premise 1: A character’s actions can only be used for scaling if they reliably reflect their physical limitations.

Premise 2: Izana’s use of a gun occurs while he is hallucinating and acting irrationally, meaning his actions do not reliably reflect his physical limitations.

Conclusion: Therefore, Izana’s use of a gun cannot be used to establish his speed limitations.

Izana was also exhausted.

The Kakucho example isn't gonna pass due to refutable reasoning. You are selecting an injured Kakucho (Shot through the chest) and treating it as representative of his overall capacity. However, inference rules lead to the conclusions that if a conclusion is drawn from this specific state, it must be shown that no bad conditions apply.

Here, there are clear bad conditions: Kakucho is operating at a level far beyond the characters you’re trying to anchor him to, like Kisaki, whom he's massively above, I mean like, he literally blitzed people massively stronger than Kisaki who is barely comparable to a massively weakened Takemichi. You've also not demonstrated that this injured state reflects Kakucho’s normal performance, nor that it is valid to generalize from that condition to his overall limits.

Syllogism:

Premise 1: If someones performance is impaired via gun shot wound, then observations during that impaired state are not representative of them full capacity.

Premise 2: Kakucho was impaired via a gun shot wound.

Conclusion: Therefore, conclusions established from that state cannot define his upper limit.

The argument ignores this.

This is not the only argument, remember when I bought up that Kakucho wasn't able to straight up blitz Kisaki despite blitzing characters massively faster than him? Yeah, him not even being able to blitz Kisaki here despite having a gun pointed at him without the trigger being pulled yet, kind of proves that Kakucho was so impaired he cannot possibly be compared to high tiers. Here's a syllogism:

Premise 1: In his healthy state, Kakucho has a combat speed sufficient enough to completely blitz characters whose speed is massively faster than Kisaki.

Premise 2: Kakucho is a really short distance away from Kisaki. Kisaki is holding a gun, but has yet to pull the trigger.

Premise 3: Despite the gun not being fired yet, Kakucho is unable to blitz Kisaki before the situation where he shoots happens.

Premise 4: If a character fails to blitz someone that they could easily do to higher tiers, their speed is objectively compromised.

Conclusion: Therefore, Kakucho’s not dodging bullets here is a direct result of his gun shot wound and blood loss, not the speed of a bullet. Using this scene to establish a maximum speed cap for a healthy Kakucho is a false equivalence.

The Draken argument is semantics. Calling guns “dangerous” is not a quantitative statement. You are treating a qualitative descriptor as if it were a measurable scaling metric.

Premise 1: “Dangerous” leads to the conclusion that they have the capacity to cause harm.

Premise 2: Speed scaling requires quantitative comparison.

Conclusion: A statement of danger cannot establish speed statement hierarchy.

Without this, the conclusion wouldn't follow.

Your motorbike argument fails because it conflates properties within a system that is not distinct and shoves them together like they're one. I.e. Travel Speed vs Combat Speed. Travel speed and combat speed are not identical categories. This is just wrong; two properties cannot be treated as the same without justification.

Using Takemichi and pre-amp Senju is utterly odd in my opinion. You are applying logic to people who are not in the same scaled chain.

Another syllogism:

Premise 1: Scaling requires comparable people.

Premise 2: Takemichi and pre-amp Senju are not comparable to high tiers.

Conclusion: Their reactions cannot define high-tier limits.

Takemichi is a low tier, as well as Senju pre-amp who went from being punched mid air, whilst close to South to low diffing him in base (Chapter 229-232), she also stated she was avoiding her potential before-hand.

Do Characters Out-Speed Guns?​

Yes!

Izana outpaced bullets here! Seen frame by frame in the anime moving after the bullet left the chamber. This is the cleanest bullet timing feat. Bullet leaves the chamber -> Izana is seen moving behind Kakucho -> Izana makes it in front of Kakucho -> Izana is hit by the bullet.

Double Yes!

Draken had a bullet timing feat here!

The manga shows a clear depiction of the bullets going off, and then the gun being slapped out of the hand after said bullets went off! Implying Draken outpaced bullets, suggesting at minimum bullet-level reactions.

These are around the only time guns are used on high tiers inverse. Making it all the more consistent.

The "Consistent" Pattern Behind Gun Feats​

Some may say, that there is a consistent pattern behind being slower then guns. However:

A consistent pattern requires comparable conditions, like. I.e. Not being injured, not being a low tier, etc. The gun-related scenes in TR vary widely so they cannot be generalized into a universal speed cap.

Conclusion:​

For bullets to act as a valid speed cap, they would need to consistently limit characters who scale to the top tiers across multiple independent instances. However, the examples provided by the opposition are situational, vary in context, and often involve impairments or low-tier characters. This lack of consistency prevents bullets from being treated as a universal cap inverse.

If bullets were truly a hard cap on speed, then all characters who scale above those affected should consistently be limited by them. Since this is not shown, the claim lacks applicability inverse.

So, Tokyo Revengers characters should not be capped at bullet speed. Leaving room for calculations above Supersonic.

Staff only vote counts
Agree:

Disagree: @Dalesean027 @Armorchompy, @KLOL506, @Maverick_Zero_X, [@Agnaa (With Gun being called dangerous because of piercing rather than speed arguement)]

Neutral:

 

[Reiner04]

Make sure everyone to keep the replies minimal and to necessary parts, since OP has restrictions on his replies for which i will have to suffer.

 

[Dalesean027]

Which is why we come to this part of the page. Tokyo Revengers does not have the sufficient, Interviews, and canon statements to be concluded as Canon. However, in the absence of explicit contradictions and given the anime’s consistency with the manga under Wakui's supervision, Tokyo Revengers should reasonably be treated as canon rather than dismissed solely due to a lack of formal statements.

Gonna have to be a no there, if you don't have the requirements for anime canon we don't just grant it out of pity for not having what we require by our current standars so thats a no there from me

Here is why people believe Tokyo Revengers characters are slower than guns.

Izana is using a gun to treat Mikey (Chapter 175)

Kakucho, while being injured, needed to be saved from bullets (Chapter 176-177)

Draken calls guns "dangerous weapons." Chapter 221)

High tiers need motorbikes to chase other motorbikes.

Senju and Takemichi freaked out and needed to be saved from guns, Draken saves them, but dies in the next chapter from the same bullets (chapter 220-221)

There's several more times when plenty of characters either die to getting shot or get severely injured from it as well, also the same goes for them just getting tagged by regular goons using melee at times

The Kakucho example isn't gonna pass due to refutable reasoning. You are selecting an injured Kakucho (Shot through the chest) and treating it as representative of his overall capacity. However, inference rules lead to the conclusions that if a conclusion is drawn from this specific state, it must be shown that no bad conditions apply.

Here, there are clear bad conditions: Kakucho is operating at a level far beyond the characters you’re trying to anchor him to, like Kisaki, whom he's massively above, I mean like, he literally blitzed people massively stronger than Kisaki who is barely comparable to a massively weakened Takemichi. You've also not demonstrated that this injured state reflects Kakucho’s normal performance, nor that it is valid to generalize from that condition to his overall limits

Strength ≠ Speed so this isn't saying much, both characters also die to being shot injured or not.

The Draken argument is semantics. Calling guns “dangerous” is not a quantitative statement. You are treating a qualitative descriptor as if it were a measurable scaling metric.

Premise 1: “Dangerous” leads to the conclusion that they have the capacity to cause harm.

Premise 2: Speed scaling requires quantitative comparison.

Conclusion: A statement of danger cannot establish speed statement hierarchy.

It definitely can, thats kinda the defualt assumptions. Its up to you to prove the mangaka is not saying they aren't dangerous due to literally being guns which typically kill peoole via their speed and piercing. Semantics isn't really proving anything, provide a statement from the author showing they mean something other than the default interpretation.

Izana outpaced bullets here! Seen frame by frame in the anime moving after the bullet left the chamber. This is the cleanest bullet timing feat. Bullet leaves the chamber -> Izana is seen moving behind Kakucho -> Izana makes it in front of Kakucho -> Izana is hit by the bullet.

Double Yes!

Draken had a bullet timing feat here!

The manga shows a clear depiction of the bullets going off, and then the gun being slapped out of the hand after said bullets went off! Implying Draken outpaced bullets, suggesting at minimum bullet-level reactions.

This isn't "outspeeding" a gun, both show a character moving relative enough to make a last minute save at the cost of their life but outspeeding is another matter which would require more than what either of these suggest



Overall I disagree with this inits entirety unless OP can provide a concrete piece of evidence directly stating the speed of firearms not being an issue or that x character is as fast or fater than gunfire or even just sound

 

[Vzearr]

Perms given.

Gonna have to be a no there, if you don't have the requirements for anime canon we don't just grant it out of pity for not having what we require by our current standars so thats a no there from me

It's not pity, it's the presupposed conclusion that not all manga have access to this material; therefore, it's a case-by-case basis. Leading to my conclusion.

I'll drop this for now, though, after discussion with Reiner, I realised it's more or less another problem.

There's several more times when plenty of characters either die to getting shot or get severely injured from it as well

Scans, sources. Prove they're high tiers too, because I cannot find any, other than one where they were hog tied...

also the same goes for them just getting tagged by regular goons using melee at times

That's not sufficient evidence to claim that they're slower than guns; that's separate AP issues... Actually, if anything, that helps my case.

Strength ≠ Speed so this isn't saying much, both characters also die to beung shot injured or not.

You’re misrepresenting my argument, here, Dale. I said that Kakucho was in an impaired state where he can't even run fast enough to hit Kisaki, who's massively slower than Angry. So he's in an impaired state. Making it unreliable.

Also, your argument that both characters die from being shot doesn't invalidate my premises, nor my conclusions. They were both in impaired states, where they're shown to be impaired to the point of either. Making rash decisions in a state or delusion and hallucination, or two, literally shot in the chest.

It definitely can, thats kinda the defualt assumptions. Its up to you to prove the mangaka is not saying they aren't dangerous due to literally being guns which typically kill peoole via their speed and piercing. Semantics isn't really proving anything, provide a statement from the author showing they mean something other than the default interpretation.

You’re shifting the burden of proof here, Dale. Default assumptions don’t convert a qualitative statement like “dangerous” into a quantitative speed scaling without explicitly linking the two. Unless you can show that the statement is referring to speed rather than general lethality, it cannot be used to establish any speed hierarchy. I'm sorry.

This isn't "outspeeding" a gun, both show a character moving relative enough to make a last minute save at the cost of their life but outspeeding is another matter which would require more than what either of these suggest

Expand.

Overall I disagree with this inits entirety unless OP can provide a concrete piece of evidence directly stating the speed of firearms not being an issue or that x character is as fast or fater than gunfire or even just sound

Fictions don’t require explicit statements to be valid, only consistent depiction and logical inference rules from the scene. If characters are shown reacting to or intercepting gunfire after it’s fired, that already serves as evidence for their reaction speed without needing the author to spell it out.

I wish vsbw allowed vc debates.

 

[Dalesean027]

That's not sufficient evidence to claim that they're slower than guns; that's separate AP issues... Actually, if anything, that helps my case.

that's not an AP issue? having regular people being able to tag characters who you're claiming to be transonic~hypersonic is definitely an anti-feat, the entire Kanto Incident or any all out brawls between really are an anti-feats to this when there's lots of goons fighting or watching these supposed bullet speed or faster dudes fight enough to give commentary no problem.

You’re misrepresenting my argument, here, Dale. I said that Kakucho was in an impaired state where he can't even run fast enough to hit Kisaki, who's massively slower than Angry. So he's in an impaired state. Making it unreliable.

Also, your argument that both characters die from being shot doesn't invalidate my premises, nor my conclusions. They were both in impaired states, where they're shown to be impaired to the point of either. Making rash decisions in a state or delusion and hallucination, or two, literally shot in the chest.

I'm not misrepresenting it, you're using the fact that before he could fight "stronger" characters as proof of being a speed gap, when those two stats aren't relative since there's no power system tying the strength of the opponent directly to their speed. Any speed stuff exist outside of AP they are intrinsically linked.

You’re shifting the burden of proof here, Dale. Default assumptions don’t convert a qualitative statement like “dangerous” into a quantitative speed scaling without explicitly linking the two. Unless you can show that the statement is referring to speed rather than general lethality, it cannot be used to establish any speed hierarchy. I'm sorry.

I'm not, you're making the claim you need to provide proof or concede that this simply doesn't exist. The default interpretation of someone calling guns dangerous is due to the lethality of them which is made up by the energy they can deliver at a small surface area to pierce and their speed, those two things are default and are what make guns considered as lethal as they are in reality. You need to provide tangible proof that they don't care about speed and that its only about piercing or else the claim you're making has no grounds.

Fictions don’t require explicit statements to be valid, only consistent depiction and logical inference rules from the scene. If characters are shown reacting to or intercepting gunfire after it’s fired, that already serves as evidence for their reaction speed without needing the author to spell it out.

Brother TR has this where character's don't "outspeed" gunfire, they have scenes where people move just fast enough to get in front of the way of them before they die to being shot which isn't the same as being faster or outspeeding. You need to provide proof of your claim that its not the speed of firearm that's dangerous or provide concrete evidence in the narrative that says the characters are as fast as you say they are since you visual evidence does not support the point you're making

 

[Vzearr]

Permission granted by @Reiner04

that's not an AP issue? having regular people being able to tag characters who you're claiming to be transonic~hypersonic is definitely an anti-feat,

Ah, yes, regular people, no names. Who can survive things like this? This is a fallacy on your end.

The entire Kanto Incident or any all out brawls between really are an anti-feats to this when there's lots of goons fighting or watching these supposed bullet speed or faster dudes fight enough to give commentary no problem.

Anyways, this is fallacious. Your syllogism:

Premise 1:
If characters can perceive and commentate on a fight, then they are capable of reacting to the speed of that fight.

Premise 2:
No names are able to perceive and commentate on fights involving the higher tier characters.

Conclusion:
Therefore, the no names can react to the speed of the main characters, meaning the main characters are not transonic–hypersonic.

This argument fails because it falsely equates commentary with reaction speed, contradicts established evidence that the same characters are speed blitzed, and fiction commonly uses commentary from people watching the fight that doesn’t reflect real-time speed, therefore you're reaching a conclusion that does not logically follow.

I'm not misrepresenting it, you're using the fact that before he could fight "stronger" characters as proof of being a speed gap, when those two stats aren't relative since there's no power system tying the strength of the opponent directly to their speed. Any speed stuff exist outside of AP they are intrinsically linked.

What? Stronger characters like Angry are several speed blitzes above Kisaki, I've already explained that, you're strawmanning me.

I'm not, you're making the claim you need to provide proof or concede that this simply doesn't exist. The default interpretation of someone calling guns dangerous is due to the lethality of them which is made up by the energy they can deliver at a small surface area to pierce and their speed, those two things are default and are what make guns considered as lethal as they are in reality. You need to provide tangible proof that they don't care about speed and that its only about piercing or else the claim you're making has no grounds.

You’re equivocating, Dale. “Dangerous” is a qualitative statement about lethality, not a quantitative statement about speed. Guns being dangerous in reality due to speed and piercing does not mean every fictional reference to them being dangerous is specifically putting up a speed difference between characters. That has to be demonstrated, not presupposed. Otherwise, you are shoving in an extra premise to your argument, mainly, that Draken’s statement is about being incapable of reacting rather than general lethality. Which actually shifts the burden of proof to you.

Syllogism that you're using:

Premise 1: In real life, guns are dangerous because of their speed and piercing power.

Premise 2: The statement says guns are dangerous.

Conclusion: Therefore, the statement is referring to their speed.
That doesn't follow.

Brother TR has this where character's don't "outspeed" gunfire, they have scenes where people move just fast enough to get in front of the way of them before they die to being shot which isn't the same as being faster or outspeeding. You need to provide proof of your claim that its not the speed of firearm that's dangerous or provide concrete evidence in the narrative that says the characters are as fast as you say they are since you visual evidence does not support the point you're making

Intercepting a bullet after it’s fired is still a valid reaction-speed showing. If a character moves after the gun is fired and reaches a new position before the bullet completes its trajectory to say- hit a character, that necessarily puts their reactions and movement within the same timeframe as the bullet. Making them bullet "speed."

You’re also presupposing the timing of the scene without demonstrating it. You’re asserting that they “only moved just enough” or that the motion began before the bullet was relevant, but you haven’t actually proven when the movement occurs relative to the firing. Without that, your interpretation is just one possibility, making it an equal interpretation. Your calculation also doesn't do that, so don't try to use that.

On top of that, you’re holding my position to a stricter standard than your own position... You’re expecting, no-, demanding, explicit proof that characters are bullet-level, whilst literally relying on default assumptions about firearms to argue they act as a cap. If the default interpretation is acceptable for your side, it must also be acceptable for interpreting visual feats; that's what equal interpretation is (learned this from the goat limbo).

Even if we grant your framing, it still doesn’t establish a speed cap. Being able to react and move relative to gunfire already implies bullet-level reaction speeds at a minimum, and this is according to our standards, btw.

 

[Reiner04]

Permission granted by @Reiner04

Imma sleep now. So won't be able to approve any more post today, will ping other supporters who might be interested. Take it slow, keep patience.

@Dinozxd @MorrisHatesYou If you two are interested.

 

[Dalesean027]

Ah, yes, regular people, no names

He gets hit by a regular goon with a bat brodie whilst on guard and even though he decides not to counter with a hit he is still apparently not fast enough simply dodge a untrained goon swinging a baseball bat at average speeds.
So yes? again you're showing an AP feat to talk about speed, why?

This argument fails because it falsely equates commentary with reaction speed, contradicts established evidence that the same characters are speed blitzed, and fiction commonly uses commentary from people watching the fight that doesn’t reflect real-time speed, therefore you're reaching a conclusion that does not logically follow.

This is entirely a case by case basis and in this case I'd say its valid as its not at all the sole reasoning used like you're trying to reword it here, its simply one point made to also illustrate why that's flawed.

What? Stronger characters like Angry are several speed blitzes above Kisaki, I've already explained that, you're strawmanning me.

No one's strawmanning you, you simply need to drop the wording of your arguments that constitutes physical strength being what constitutes the speed gap, Angry does indeed having better scaling chains and feats of speed but you're going out of your way to mention "stronger" or the "strength" of someone while addressing arguments of speed, it makes no sense.

You’re equivocating, Dale. “Dangerous” is a qualitative statement about lethality, not a quantitative statement about speed. Guns being dangerous in reality due to speed and piercing does not mean every fictional reference to them being dangerous is specifically putting up a speed difference between characters. That has to be demonstrated, not presupposed. Otherwise, you are shoving in an extra premise to your argument, mainly, that Draken’s statement is about being incapable of reacting rather than general lethality. Which actually shifts the burden of proof to you.

Syllogism that you're using:

Premise 1: In real life, guns are dangerous because of their speed and piercing power.

Premise 2: The statement says guns are dangerous.

Conclusion: Therefore, the statement is referring to their speed.
That doesn't follow.

you're the only one limiting it to their speed and separating one aspect of what makes guns dangerous to suit your point, all I'm asking is for proof since you are arguing the default assumption of why guns would be considered dangerous do not apply here.

Intercepting a bullet after it’s fired is still a valid reaction-speed showing. If a character moves after the gun is fired and reaches a new position before the bullet completes its trajectory to say- hit a character, that necessarily puts their reactions and movement within the same timeframe as the bullet. Making them bullet "speed."

I never said its not a valid reaction speed showing so this doesn't apply to anything I've said? I said they did not "outspeed" bullets as you are claiming.

You’re also presupposing the timing of the scene without demonstrating it. You’re asserting that they “only moved just enough” or that the motion began before the bullet was relevant, but you haven’t actually proven when the movement occurs relative to the firing. Without that, your interpretation is just one possibility, making it an equal interpretation. Your calculation also doesn't do that, so don't try to use that.

Its not really "up for interpretation" quite literally see how it happens for the relevant part of the movement

Yeah we don't see izana move the entire distance on screen which would be the best outcome and while we don't have the luxury of that, we can see still use this as supplementary which shows the intent was that he was already running behind him since he's already coming up and pushing up at the same time Kisaki goes to fire (check the frame by frame for a clearer look).

On top of that, you’re holding my position to a stricter standard than your own position... You’re expecting, no-, demanding, explicit proof that characters are bullet-level, whilst literally relying on default assumptions about firearms to argue they act as a cap. If the default interpretation is acceptable for your side, it must also be acceptable for interpreting visual feats; that's what equal interpretation is (learned this from the goat limbo).

Of course I'm holding you to a stricter standard, you're literally making a CRT and making claims that you need to definitively prove which you have yet to do especially when you're whole argument is just semantics and ignoring what the default meaning of "guns are dangerous" from the dude who famously gets shot and dies. So yeah unless you can provide definitive proof of your claim in this case I don't see how deliberating on this is worthwhile since its just headcanon on your part, actually provide solid proof of your claim that the author does not want you to factor in a gun's speed as to one of the reasons it could be considered a dangerous weapon.


this requires hard evidence, literally all I'm asking is that you provide that or drop it since its a waste of time otherwise for us to deliberate over this

Even if we grant your framing, it still doesn’t establish a speed cap. Being able to react and move relative to gunfire already implies bullet-level reaction speeds at a minimum, and this is according to our standards, btw.

it doesn't? You can be 30m/s and still move relative enough to gunfire to dodge something from a distance, look at the MCU they've got at least dozen feats of reacting to bullets and missiles that range from superhuman to lower subsonic, just moving relatively doesn't mean you're also faster suddenly too its why context matters.

 

[XxZetsuxX]

The imgur scans are not working for me, am i the only one?

 

[Dalesean027]

The imgur scans are not working for me, am i the only one?

they weren't working for me either so I relinked them in the text

 

[XxZetsuxX]

Fixed, thx

 

[Dinozxd]

I think Vzearr's replies so far has been pretty on point but I do wanna comment on "regular dudes being able to spectate and comment on Supersonic-Hypersonic characters" stuff since I don't think Vzearr clarified it a lot.

No name dudes (they scale to Subsonic, btw) cannot keep up with god, high or even mid tiers of the verse. They can't even react to them. There's literally no instance of a no name being able to fight a mid tier one on one for more than one punch (thrown by the mid tier, not the no name). A Low-mid tier character like Ryusei no diffed 20 no names. Draken, a high tier, casually beat 100 no names (they narratively scale higher than no names but whatever) with some of them armed. He also did this insanely fast, btw.

He gets hit by a regular goon with a bat brodie whilst on guard and even though he decides not to counter with a hit he is still apparently not fast enough simply dodge a untrained goon swinging a baseball bat at average speeds.

You lack the context behind the scene, btw. Baji is prohibited from fighting in school, as his mother is worried about him getting held back another year or possibly being expelled. Just as he's about to swing at the dude, he remembers that (you can literally see it in the scan) and turns his attack into a block which gets him injured. That's why he couldn't counter attack or evade the hit. To be honest, even him being able to block the attack that fast is a speed feat.

Also, dodging isn't always a better showcase of speed than blocking. Idk why everyone thinks that. Dodging and blocking feats mostly require the same distance moved to pull off lol

Bonus point: Like two scenes after this, a character  inferior to Baji performed a feat where he massively outsped another no name swinging a bat. Like, come on.

 

[Random-Helper323]

Okay, the first issue to put forward is who the guns are shown to threaten (low or high Tier characters) and whether they or others have feats of being too fast for that in one way or another.

I'm guessing the bullets are normal, not like those verses where the guns are far superior to real life ones for one reason or another.

 

[MorrisHatesYou]

Ah ha, it seems like people are open minded enough, and mods are watching the thread.

I will drop arguments

 

[Dalesean027]

Okay, the first issue to put forward is who the guns are shown to threaten (low or high Tier characters) and whether they or others have feats of being too fast for that in one way or another.

I'm guessing the bullets are normal, not like those verses where the guns are far superior to real life ones for one reason or another.

I'll just go through different characters.


Chifuyu is held at gunpoint and killed by Mikey and can only get his last words off without being able to do anything before being killed in the 14th timeline loop - Ch 115 and 117 - Mid Tier
Mikey is shot in the head by Naoto being killed in the 14th time loop, granted he is blind sided by the shot and is suicidal here - 119 - The God Tier
Naoto is shot and killed by Kisaki in the 16th loop - Ch 133 and 134 - Low Tier
Takemichi is shot and killed by Kachuko in the 16th loop - Ch 134 - Tier varies with Resolution
Izana is killed by Kisaki in the 17th loop - Ch 176 and 177 - High Tiers
Takemichi is killed by Mikey in the 18th loop - Ch 202 - Tier varies with Resolution
Senju is shot and killed defending Takemichi in an alternate version of the 19th loop - Ch 219 - Varies from Mid to High tier
Draken is shot and killed defending Takemichi in the 19th loop - Ch 220 through 223 - Mid to maybe High tier


This is what I got off hand just for those who get shot only, not counting those who are stabbed or killed through other methods

 

[Dalesean027]

ou lack the context behind the scene, btw. Baji is prohibited from fighting in school, as his mother is worried about him getting held back another year or possibly being expelled. Just as he's about to swing at the dude, he remembers that (you can literally see it in the scan) and turns his attack into a block which gets him injured. That's why he couldn't counter attack or evade the hit. To be honest, even him being able to block the attack that fast is a speed feat.

Its not missing context, I already explained dude can't fight back but that doesn't suddenly make him average human level and its not really that crazy of speed feat, blocking a bat with you hands is something regular people have done in fights countless times. Not everything is this crazy speed feat like yall make it out to be and at best you get peak human out of it considering its not even proper form and a overhead swing which would be much slower.

No name dudes (they scale to Subsonic, btw) cannot keep up with god, high or even mid tiers of the verse. They can't even react to them. There's literally no instance of a no name being able to fight a mid tier one on one for more than one punch (thrown by the mid tier, not the no name)

This feat is invalid since its an anime only addition and its not remotely like this in the manga soo

A Low-mid tier character like Ryusei no diffed 20 no names.

sure but its off screen so we don't see how long it takes so its not really the strongest argument that he diffed no name goons? This doesn't tell us anything

Draken, a high tier, casually beat 100 no names (they narratively scale higher than no names but whatever) with some of them armed

This is fine but its got the same problem as the feat above, completely off screen


So far each of these has just been strength statements or other stuff that doesn't prove why any of them should be faster than guns, like these scans sent as arguments make no sense or have no correlation


Also

Your motorbike argument fails because it conflates properties within a system that is not distinct and shoves them together like they're one. I.e. Travel Speed vs Combat Speed. Travel speed and combat speed are not identical categories. This is just wrong; two properties cannot be treated as the same without justification.

Taiju uses a Motorbike to directly attack Sanzu by ramming him with it and Sanzu isn't fast enough to dodge the "travel speed" of the motorcycle - Chapter 258 - Sanzu being a high tier able to tag Kakucho several times with his Katana with a Resolution Amped Takemichi needed to carefully avoid his blows with near misses

 

[Bimbitesthedust]

Ok gonna give my opinion overall and tbh I dont see it possible for characters in this verse to be faster than bullets

What Are The Arguments Against?​

Here is why people believe Tokyo Revengers characters are slower than guns.

Izana is using a gun to treat Mikey (Chapter 175)

Kakucho, while being injured, needed to be saved from bullets (Chapter 176-177)

Draken calls guns "dangerous weapons." Chapter 221)

High tiers need motorbikes to chase other motorbikes.

Senju and Takemichi freaked out and needed to be saved from guns, Draken saves them, but dies in the next chapter from the same bullets (chapter 220-221)

These examples do show a good idea on why bullets can cap due to the following reasons:

1) in the Izana example, Draken tells Mikey to not test Izana which if a character that supposedly is faster than bullets, it's pretty strange that they are being told to be careful around a guy with a gun. I would expect Draken to not tell him that if Mikey is some bullet timer since it would be redundant to tell him not to be careful.

2) Your Kakucho example doesn't appear to show the panel but it does seem to be like that, but if he and similar characters could bullet time easily or are supersonic and above, it wouldn't be hard for them to aim dodge a gunshot, additionally if Izana were to have dodged the bullets completely, he should've been capable of grabbing or pushing Kakucho and both dodge the bullets rather than running in front and blocking.

3) Draken saying that guns are dangerous outright just blocks it because even if characters aren't saying that they can't dodge or tank them, the implication that they consider guns dangerous means that something that hits as fast or as hard as a gun is going to cap the verse a decent bit. Additionally it is bizarre to try and bring up research method terminology and calling it semantics, which aside from the former sounding strange since this is a CRT and not a research paper for college, is also additionally strange when there is a large level of consistency showing that guns are dangerous and can kill people in the series alongside hitting them. Dale has shown many examples of characters getting hit and killed by guns

I'll just go through different characters.


Chifuyu is held at gunpoint and killed by Mikey and can only get his last words off without being able to do anything before being killed in the 14th timeline loop - Ch 115 and 117 - Mid Tier
Mikey is shot in the head by Naoto being killed in the 14th time loop, granted he is blind sided by the shot and is suicidal here - 119 - The God Tier
Naoto is shot and killed by Kisaki in the 16th loop - Ch 133 and 134 - Low Tier
Takemichi is shot and killed by Kachuko in the 16th loop - Ch 134 - Tier varies with Resolution
Izana is killed by Kisaki in the 17th loop - Ch 176 and 177 - High Tiers
Takemichi is killed by Mikey in the 18th loop - Ch 202 - Tier varies with Resolution
Senju is shot and killed defending Takemichi in an alternate version of the 19th loop - Ch 219 - Varies from Mid to High tier
Draken is shot and killed defending Takemichi in the 19th loop - Ch 220 through 223 - Mid to maybe High tier

Overall, Draken calling them dangerous just only proves to further support the notion for this cap.

4 and 5) Im gonna skip past 4 since it would just be a travel speed cap overall. for for the Takemichi portion, I realize that for the portion you didnt mention Draken dying to those bullets like you did in the beginning and tried to utilize it as a sort of feat when Draken had to take the bullets to the grave.

In general I do think bullets just cap this verse as most examples of you trying to say that the character is faster doenst work when they barely are able to dodge it and have to rely on being meat shields as they dont seem fast enough to tackle their friend and there isnt anything that seems to imply characters being in the Supersonic or above

 

[Vzearr]

Perms given from Dale.

He gets hit by a regular goon with a bat brodie whilst on guard and even though he decides not to counter with a hit he is still apparently not fast enough simply dodge a untrained goon swinging a baseball bat at average speeds.

This gets instantly contradicted by the fact that Baji gets saved by Ryuhei, someone slower than him, by a bat swing, halfway, from several meters away. These are just tools to sell the narrative, you haven't actually proven that characters are comp to no names when there are hundreds of situations where mid tiers blitz no names and high tiers blitz mid tiers. You've read the manga, so I presume you know that mid tiers blitz no names very often.

So yes? again you're showing an AP feat to talk about speed, why?

No names scale to subsonic, as per a calculation you accepted. Making them superhuman.

This is entirely a case by case basis and in this case I'd say its valid as its not at all the sole reasoning used like you're trying to reword it here, its simply one point made to also illustrate why that's flawed.

That doesn’t fix the issue-... Equating commentary with reaction speed is an illogical conclusion, so it adds no evidential value and cannot support your conclusion, regardless of what other points you include. I already provided you with a syllogism, and you denied it based on no reasoning, you're just saying it's flawed without proving it's flawed.

you're the only one limiting it to their speed and separating one aspect of what makes guns dangerous to suit your point, all I'm asking is for proof since you are arguing the default assumption of why guns would be considered dangerous do not apply here.

Guns are consistently shown to be dangerous because they pierce and kill, not because characters are portrayed as unable to react to their velocity. You’re the one making the positive claim that guns act as a speed cap, so you need to prove that the narrative treats them as unreactable due to their velocity, after all, you asserted that in the CBO thread.

I never said its not a valid reaction speed showing so this doesn't apply to anything I've said? I said they did not "outspeed" bullets as you are claiming.

If you concede it’s a valid reaction-speed feat, then that already contradicts your position as a hard cap. You Dale, are trying to claim that it limits everything. Anyways, Dale, it is a valid combat-relevant feat.

If a character can:

• perceive the shot
• start movement after the gun fires
• and complete an action (like lifting your arm up, and running) before the bullet reaches its target

Then the full chain of combat and travel speed is within the bullet’s travel timeframe.

Its not really "up for interpretation" quite literally see how it happens for the relevant part of the movement

Yeah we don't see izana move the entire distance on screen which would be the best outcome and while we don't have the luxury of that, we can see still use this as supplementary which shows the intent was that he was already running behind him since he's already coming up and pushing up at the same time Kisaki goes to fire.

Wow, my debunks finally get to come in handy.

So, clearly Izana hadn't moved whilst Kakucho was running. So this means he must have begun moving when Kisaki said "die," right? Wrong.

A Scream Reaches 125 DB, If Kakucho's Scream Couldn't Even Knock Izana Out Of His Broken Mental State, Would Normal Talking Break Him Out? No, And No Amount Of Evidence Proves It Can.

Also, If You Still Think Izana Was Somehow Running Behind Kakucho, The Anime Says You're Wrong. Listen Closely. We Only Hear One Pair Of Footsteps Which Matches With The Frames Of Kakucho's Stomps. Even During Kisaki Saying "Die" We Hear The Same Consistent Stomps As Before Proving Izana Was Standing Still.

Jesus I hate the fact the old me used to use caps every word.

Of course I'm holding you to a stricter standard, you're literally making a CRT and making claims that you need to definitively prove which you have yet to do especially when you're whole argument is just semantics and ignoring what the default meaning of "guns are dangerous" from the dude who famously gets shot and dies. So yeah unless you can provide definitive proof of your claim in this case I don't see how deliberating on this is worthwhile since its just headcanon on your part, actually provide solid proof of your claim that the author does not want you to factor in a gun's speed as to one of the reasons it could be considered a dangerous weapon.

Holding me to a higher standard doesn’t let you rely on assumptions, if your argument depends on "guns are dangerous = speed cap," you still have to prove that link, I'm on a positive, yeah, but so are you-... A character dying to a gun only proves lethality, not that its speed is unreactable or defines a limit. You’re asking me to disprove your interpretation, but you haven’t demonstrated that the narrative treats gun speed as a cap in the first place so the only headcanon is the extra premise you’re adding.

it doesn't? You can be 30m/s and still move relative enough to gunfire to dodge something from a distance, look at the MCU they've got at least dozen feats of reacting to bullets and missiles that range from superhuman to lower subsonic, just moving relatively doesn't mean you're also faster suddenly too its why context matters.

Yeah, when the gun is 100 meters away from you, not 0.4-3 meters away.

 

[Dalesean027]

This gets instantly contradicted by the fact that Baji gets saved by Ryuhei, someone slower than him, by a bat swing, halfway, from several meters away. These are just tools to sell the narrative, you haven't actually proven that characters are comp to no names when there are hundreds of situations where mid tiers blitz no names and high tiers blitz mid tiers. You've read the manga, so I presume you know that mid tiers blitz no names very often.

The guy is also still winding up the swing when he's kicked as you can clearly see so there isn't even a real swinging feat here to begin with. So actually no its not contradicted by anything.

No names scale to subsonic, as per a calculation you accepted. Making them superhuman.

a calculation which is invalid since it uses anime exclusive additions that don't exist in the manga and by all means would need to be axed.

That doesn’t fix the issue-... Equating commentary with reaction speed is an illogical conclusion, so it adds no evidential value and cannot support your conclusion, regardless of what other points you include. I already provided you with a syllogism, and you denied it based on no reasoning, you're just saying it's flawed without proving it's flawed.

agree to disagree, I think its perfectly reasonable in certain context.

A Scream Reaches 125 DB, If Kakucho's Scream Couldn't Even Knock Izana Out Of His Broken Mental State, Would Normal Talking Break Him Out? No, And No Amount Of Evidence Proves It Can.

This doesn't...?? bro why are you sending research papers about the decibels of a scream that has 0 bearing on anything?? Do you think bro suddenly has resistance to sounds hitting his ears or something being lost in thought can make you not focus on noise around you sure but its not about if its loud enough to break your concentration

Also, If You Still Think Izana Was Somehow Running Behind Kakucho, The Anime Says You're Wrong. Listen Closely. We Only Hear One Pair Of Footsteps Which Matches With The Frames Of Kakucho's Stomps. Even During Kisaki Saying "Die" We Hear The Same Consistent Stomps As Before Proving Izana Was Standing Still.

Duh there's obviously the drama of needing to adapt the sudden save from Izana? the manga doesn't do that either but we see he comes up from behind and pushes him this is a non argument.

Holding me to a higher standard doesn’t let you rely on assumptions, if your argument depends on "guns are dangerous = speed cap," you still have to prove that link, I'm on a positive, yeah, but so are you-... A character dying to a gun only proves lethality, not that its speed is unreactable or defines a limit. You’re asking me to disprove your interpretation, but you haven’t demonstrated that the narrative treats gun speed as a cap in the first place so the only headcanon is the extra premise you’re adding.

Brother YOU are making the claim that the statement "guns are dangerous" excludes speed and ONLY refers to piercing damage, THAT is not the default assumption You need to prove your claim or drop the point​

I will actually report you, you continue to try and shift this while this is your claim in you NEED to prove your claim with concrete evidence bro that's how the site works, You can't just make claims and arguments and have 0 evidence but say someone else needs to prove that what you're saying is wrong when your literal argument is that the default interpretation of something isn't correct. Prove that the author is ONLY talking about piercing damage with concrete evidence to back your claim

Yeah, when the gun is 100 meters away from you, not 0.4-3 meters away.

yeah no lol, the fact that you don't know this is telling

 

[Bimbitesthedust]

Off topic as well, why is the subsonic guy getting a Truck Kun moment?

the damage he had beforehand couldn't have made him slow enough to be tagged easily by a truck like that he wasn't shot from what I've seen

 

[KLOL506]

Commenting here because Dalesean has my balls in a vise requested me to. I wouldn't be here otherwise.

What am I looking at. It's all so convoluted.

First things first, I want to know. Do we have any in-manga scans of people dodging bullets AFTER they leave the barrel of the gun fully? If not, there is no feat to calc as it'd be aim-dodging. Couldn't care less about whether or not the guns are an actual threat to these people at hand.

Because last time I checked these feats I refused to give the green light on calcs related to them because the above couldn't be proved beyond a reasonable doubt using in-manga scans.

 

[Chariot190]

Friendly reminder everything is relative. It's a sliding scale, a pistol might be like 30x faster than a normal person sure, and 50mps (just a example) might only be like 5x faster than a normal person, but 50mps is only 6x lower than a pistol instead of 30x; one could still visibly move and could even reasonably dodge a gun from like 3m away (assuming they only have to pivot half a meter) just fine if all their speed slop scales to said 50mps.

Also if anime isn't canon, don't use it unless it's literally just 1:1, and I do mean 1:1 not "well it's close enough", but the very fact it's something that even needs to be brought up is implicative of it being not 1:1 otherwise it wouldn't matter so.....

 

[MorrisHatesYou]

In Tokyo Revengers, weapons with instant lethality are portrayed to be disproportionately dominant, to the point where simply wielding one can overwhelm opponents, regardless of clear differences in speed or physical ability.
The series repeatedly shows that once a character gains access to a weapon capable of killing instantly, the fight shifts in their favor, even against opponents who are significantly faster. This suggests that the narrative prioritizes lethality over speed, rather than speed being the deciding factor in these encounters.

Angry vs Mucho:
Angry clearly outclasses Mucho in both speed and strength. The gap is obvious. Yet the moment Mucho grabs a knife, Angry becomes visibly overwhelmed and struggles to handle him, forcing Kakucho to intervene. This suggests that the knife alone flips the power dynamic so hard that Angry’s superior speed is rendered ineffective.

The same pattern appears with Kakucho vs Sanzu:
Sanzu is a mid tier character and Kakucho is fast enough to blitz him. However, in the final arc when when Sanzu weilds Katana, a weapon that can kill instantly, Kakucho is suddenly forced into a defensive role, and the fight ends with Kakucho losing.
The narrative treats the katana’s lethality as the decisive factor.

When weapons like knives or katanas are treated as dangerous, the default reasons should be their lethality, range and the wielder’s skill. However, in situations where there’s a massive speed gap, range and skill become far less relevant because the faster character should be able to bypass those advantages.
This is reinforced by Ran Haitani. He consistently uses a baton, which gives him range, yet he remains mid-tier and doesn’t show any significant jump in effectiveness. He’s able to fight on par with Sanzu Haruchiyo when Sanzu is using a metal pipe, and even loses to Mitsuya Takashi despite having that weapon advantage.
So simply having a weapon or even having range isn’t enough to change the outcome. The only factor that consistently shifts these matchups is lethality, specifically when the weapon is capable of killing instantly.


Guns, speed and burden of proof:

When characters are overwhelmed by guns, the default assumption is that it’s because of speed, along with lethality. But based on what’s already been shown, that assumption regarding speed for Tokyo Revengers characters doesn’t really hold up.

The series consistently shows that even if one character is significantly faster, an instantly lethal weapon is enough to flip the entire fight.

This DOES NOT automatically say that the characters are faster than guns, it however, neutralize the default assumption that speed is the problem.

In this case, if anyone thinks that speed is the problem, the burden of proof falls on them to suggest it's the speed.



Simplified Argument:

The narrative prioritizes lethality over speed when determining fight outcomes.

Because of that, you can’t rely on the default assumption that guns are dangerous mainly due to speed, the narrative itself undermines that idea.

This doesn’t mean the characters are faster than guns; it simply means you can’t limit them using speed as the explanation by default.

So if someone claims speed is the deciding factor, the burden of proof is on them to demonstrate it.

 

[Dalesean027]

When characters are overwhelmed by guns, the default assumption is that it’s because of speed, along with lethality. But based on what’s already been shown, that assumption regarding speed for Tokyo Revengers characters doesn’t really hold up.

You don't get to determine that on your own, you need actual concrete proof via statements or actual real slow mo bullet feats or some insane bullet blocking feats. Prove the default assumption doesn't actually apply here with actual concrete evidence or concede this point

 

[KLOL506]

Hate to be a party pooper, but Dalesean is right. Unless actually stated verbatim by the verse, we can't assume there to be no connection between lethality and speed.

Despite my lack of knowledge about this verse, from what I can gather with the limited info, it seems to be grounded in reality somewhat where normal combat feats are concerned. That takes a humongous amount of precedence.

 

[MorrisHatesYou]

You don't get to determine that on your own, you need actual concrete proof via statements or actual real slow mo bullet feats or some insane bullet blocking feats. Prove the default assumption doesn't actually apply here with actual concrete evidence or concede this point

You don’t need bullet-timing feats to reject the default assumption—you only need to show that the assumption doesn’t consistently explain what’s happening.
In Tokyo Revengers, fights are repeatedly flipped by lethality alone, even when there’s a clear speed gap. That already shows speed isn’t a reliable determining factor in the first place.
So the issue here is simple:
you’re treating “guns are dangerous because of speed” as a given, but the series itself doesn’t consistently support that logic.
I’m not claiming they’re faster than bullets. I’m saying your assumption about speed being the reason isn’t justified by the narrative.
If you think speed is still the deciding factor, then you need to prove it actually explains these outcomes better than lethality does.


If this is insufficient by the standards then it's whatever.

 

[MorrisHatesYou]

Hate to be a party pooper, but Dalesean is right. Unless actually stated verbatim by the verse, we can't assume there to be no connection between lethality and speed.

Despite my lack of knowledge about this verse, from what I can gather with the limited info, it seems to be grounded in reality somewhat where normal combat feats are concerned. That takes a humongous amount of precedence.

Ok

 

[Dalesean027]

You don’t need bullet-timing feats to reject the default assumption—you only need to show that the assumption doesn’t consistently explain what’s happening.
In Tokyo Revengers, fights are repeatedly flipped by lethality alone, even when there’s a clear speed gap. That already shows speed isn’t a reliable determining factor in the first place.
So the issue here is simple:
you’re treating “guns are dangerous because of speed” as a given, but the series itself doesn’t consistently support that logic.
I’m not claiming they’re faster than bullets. I’m saying your assumption about speed being the reason isn’t justified by the narrative.
If you think speed is still the deciding factor, then you need to prove it actually explains these outcomes better than lethality does.

Brother you're claiming the series doesn't support the notion that the speed of guns aren't the problem but you refuse to provide concrete evidence to prove your point, you can't keep making these claims with no evidence and saying the burden of proof doesn't fall on you.

Show actual real bullet feats for block or showing someone actually seeing a bullet fly and reacting or or statements saying its not the speed of the guns aren't the problem or a statement that they are as fast as sound or as fast as a gun or something, literally ANYTHING concrete


If you don't have that the drop this man, you're literally just lying atp

 

[MorrisHatesYou]

Hate to be a party pooper, but Dalesean is right. Unless actually stated verbatim by the verse, we can't assume there to be no connection between lethality and speed.

By the way, do we not need actual anti feats where it's clearly showed they are below bullets or straight speed statement to suggest that? Is calling guns dangerous alone sufficient?

Even if this applies it should only apply to Draken and characters below him though.

 

[Avaritia_603]

I generally agree, there is no way to take the scan at face value and get a "default assumption" as the wording can imply multiple possibilities with no context so vzear defending the verses current speed cap would already be justified. In order for the cap to be applied to the verse you'd need evidence that your assumption is the correct one and since vzear is defending the existing limitations he wouldnt need such

 

[Chariot190]

snip

I don't got much of a horse in this race here BUT you're skipping an important step there.
All your examples only show that a lethal melee weapon can make a faster dude act way more carefully, not that speed stops mattering, let alone that other dudes now have to prove speed is the issue.
A knife or katana in CQC adds extra lethality yeah, and also reach, (technically higher speed too given that's how levers work), and punishes one bad move sure, yet, a faster dude not sliming the other dude instantly doesn't mean the speed gap is gone tho, it just means it isn't big enough to ignore the weapon's advantages. The main problem here though, is it def doesn't auto-carry over to guns, given guns add range, way less commitment, and bullet speed on top of lethality.
You need to prove your claim in the context of guns, not the context of a knife dude, the burden isn't on others to prove speed matters if there isn't anything actually saying otherwise.
The burden is always going to be on you to prove gun speed is NOT a limitation here, and your melee examples simply don't do that, like it'd be one thing if they had a Gray Fox type scene or have actively low diffed bullets like Spidey but that hasn't happened.
It's essentially just "you can't prove this ISN'T the case", but me and you both know that isn't how burden of proof works, literally, it's in site rules, go read the Goku example.

 

[KLOL506]

By the way, do we not need actual anti feats where it's clearly showed they are below bullets or straight speed statement to suggest that? Is calling guns dangerous alone sufficient?

Case by case basis.

 

[Vzearr]

I think this entire thread is turning into incorrect burden shifting, presupposed conclusions, and incorrect tier scaling (you're scaling it as if a single mid-tier-high tier has been killed by bullets in a controlled scenario).

No, it is not my burden to prove that Draken calling guns "dangerous weapons" is inherently a statement regarding both speed and strength; you claim the default assumption to be that it applies to both, but that's question begging. A qualitative descriptor being applied to quantitative norms does not follow. You're also asserting a default assumption, making it your burden to prove.

The examples you gave aren't done by mid and high tiers. The Kisaki example is when his back is pointed so I don't know why it's being used.

Perms granted by dale.

 

[Dalesean027]

I think this entire thread is turning into incorrect burden shifting, presupposed conclusions, and incorrect tier scaling (you're scaling it as if a single mid-tier-high tier has been killed by bullets in a controlled scenario).

No, it is not my burden to prove that Draken calling guns "dangerous weapons" is inherently a statement regarding both speed and strength; you claim the default assumption to be that it applies to both, but that's question begging. A qualitative descriptor being applied to quantitative norms does not follow. You're also asserting a default assumption, making it your burden to prove.

The examples you gave aren't done by mid and high tiers. The Kisaki example is when his back is pointed so I don't know why it's being used.

This is going no where, you continuously continue to not provide actual evidence and say burden of proof does not apply to you to prove your claim that its only the speed of guns doesn't matter.

Since this is going no where and staff agreed this was the best way to handle the situation, I'm going to go ahead ping them since it makes no sense for me to be the only one evaluating this when half the staff on here have literally commented on this situation in RVR and agreed to this option, need yall to actually do the work for the options yall agreed upon.


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t definitely can, thats kinda the defualt assumptions. Its up to you to prove the mangaka is not saying they aren't dangerous due to literally being guns which typically kill peoole via their speed and piercing. Semantics isn't really proving anything, provide a statement from the author showing they mean something other than the default interpretation.

I'm not, you're making the claim you need to provide proof or concede that this simply doesn't exist. The default interpretation of someone calling guns dangerous is due to the lethality of them which is made up by the energy they can deliver at a small surface area to pierce and their speed, those two things are default and are what make guns considered as lethal as they are in reality. You need to provide tangible proof that they don't care about speed and that its only about piercing or else the claim you're making has no grounds.

Of course I'm holding you to a stricter standard, you're literally making a CRT and making claims that you need to definitively prove which you have yet to do especially when you're whole argument is just semantics and ignoring what the default meaning of "guns are dangerous" from the dude who famously gets shot and dies. So yeah unless you can provide definitive proof of your claim in this case I don't see how deliberating on this is worthwhile since its just headcanon on your part, actually provide solid proof of your claim that the author does not want you to factor in a gun's speed as to one of the reasons it could be considered a dangerous weapon.


this requires hard evidence, literally all I'm asking is that you provide that or drop it since its a waste of time otherwise for us to deliberate over this

Brother YOU are making the claim that the statement "guns are dangerous" excludes speed and ONLY refers to piercing damage, THAT is not the default assumption You need to prove your claim or drop the point​

I will actually report you, you continue to try and shift this while this is your claim in you NEED to prove your claim with concrete evidence bro that's how the site works, You can't just make claims and arguments and have 0 evidence but say someone else needs to prove that what you're saying is wrong when your literal argument is that the default interpretation of something isn't correct. Prove that the author is ONLY talking about piercing damage with concrete evidence to back your claim

You don't get to determine that on your own, you need actual concrete proof via statements or actual real slow mo bullet feats or some insane bullet blocking feats. Prove the default assumption doesn't actually apply here with actual concrete evidence or concede this point

Hate to be a party pooper, but Dalesean is right. Unless actually stated verbatim by the verse, we can't assume there to be no connection between lethality and speed.

Despite my lack of knowledge about this verse, from what I can gather with the limited info, it seems to be grounded in reality somewhat where normal combat feats are concerned. That takes a humongous amount of precedence.

I don't got much of a horse in this race here BUT you're skipping an important step there.
All your examples only show that a lethal melee weapon can make a faster dude act way more carefully, not that speed stops mattering, let alone that other dudes now have to prove speed is the issue.
A knife or katana in CQC adds extra lethality yeah, and also reach, (technically higher speed too given that's how levers work), and punishes one bad move sure, yet, a faster dude not sliming the other dude instantly doesn't mean the speed gap is gone tho, it just means it isn't big enough to ignore the weapon's advantages. The main problem here though, is it def doesn't auto-carry over to guns, given guns add range, way less commitment, and bullet speed on top of lethality.
You need to prove your claim in the context of guns, not the context of a knife dude, the burden isn't on others to prove speed matters if there isn't anything actually saying otherwise.
The burden is always going to be on you to prove gun speed is NOT a limitation here, and your melee examples simply don't do that, like it'd be one thing if they had a Gray Fox type scene or have actively low diffed bullets like Spidey but that hasn't happened.
It's essentially just "you can't prove this ISN'T the case", but me and you both know that isn't how burden of proof works, literally, it's in site rules, go read the Goku example.

I've repeated told OP burden of proof his on him to prove his claims he is making in the OP and time and time again they have been refused to be provided since no actual real tangible evidence exist to prove said claims. Needless to say this but can staff kindly let OP know that if he can't just go "prove it's wrong", after making a claim that default assumptions of what makes guns lethal don't apply to this verse. Like really what do you MEAN prove it's wrong, it's on YOU to prove it's TRUE.

Bro is basically saying "Goku is 1-A" without providing any concrete evidence to support his claim but then going "prove goku isnt 1-A" type shit when someone says no?

Frankly I'm not going to keep arguing semantics or being obtuse and roundabout with OP or these guys when no real evidence is being provided for their claims, we've closed threads for this before and there is literally no argument to be had when no proof is being provided just conjecture. Yall chose to keep him here with the current perms and are just responsible for giving your evaluations and managing this verse. I didn't ask nor want to have to deal with this either yet here we are, a vote was made and yall need to do yall parts

 

[MorrisHatesYou]

Snip

If it's against the rule, it's whatever.

I just think that since lethality always take priority over everything to determine outcome of fights, it should be extended to guns.

I don't think this needs further arguing.

It'd affect draken and others below him.

 

[Avaritia_603]

This is going no where, you continuously continue to not provide actual evidence and say burden of proof does not apply to you to prove your claim that its only the speed of guns doesn't matter.

Since this is going no where and staff agreed this was the best way to handle the situation, I'm going to go ahead ping them since it makes no sense for me to be the only one evaluating this when half the staff on here have literally commented on this situation in RVR and agreed to this option, need yall to actually do the work for the options yall agreed upon.


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I've repeated told OP burden of proof his on him to prove his claims he is making in the OP and time and time again they have been refused to be provided since no actual real tangible evidence exist to prove said claims. Needless to say this but can staff kindly let OP know that if he can't just go "prove it's wrong", after making a claim that default assumptions of what makes guns lethal don't apply to this verse. Like really what do you MEAN prove it's wrong, it's on YOU to prove it's TRUE.

Bro is basically saying "Goku is 1-A" without providing any concrete evidence to support his claim but then going "prove goku isnt 1-A" type shit when someone says no?

Frankly I'm not going to keep arguing semantics or being obtuse and roundabout with OP or these guys when no real evidence is being provided for their claims, we've closed threads for this before and there is literally no argument to be had when no proof is being provided just conjecture. Yall chose to keep him here with the current perms and are just responsible for giving your evaluations and managing this verse. I didn't ask nor want to have to deal with this either yet here we are, a vote was made and yall need to do yall parts

This question begs again, youre still just saying its the default assumption when thats what in question thats why its not getting anywhere.

 

[Dalesean027]

This question begs again, youre still just saying its the default assumption when thats what in question thats why its not getting anywhere.

Brother if OP is claiming the part of the regular things that make guns lethal does NOT apply here, they need explicit proof

Guns are dangerous usually irl because they add range, way less commitment, and bullet speed on top of lethality. You see someone pull a gun and you know what a gun does and why they are dangerous, we live in the modern world brodie this isn't some insane concept. If OP is saying speed has no bearing on the statement and that its ONLY piercing damage that is being referred to then they need concrete evidence in statements or valid non conjected based feats that are without a doubt proof of characters either being transonic to supersonic speeds without reliance on subjective calcs.


Actually prove the claims being made or drop this, the entire thread is pointless otherwise since its literally all conjecture based

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

Holding me to a higher standard doesn’t let you rely on assumptions, if your argument depends on "guns are dangerous = speed cap," you still have to prove that link, I'm on a positive, yeah, but so are you-... A character dying to a gun only proves lethality, not that its speed is unreactable or defines a limit. You’re asking me to disprove your interpretation, but you haven’t demonstrated that the narrative treats gun speed as a cap in the first place so the only headcanon is the extra premise you’re adding.

Because Guns are commonly known for their lethality and speed, not just because they can kill, but because they are almost unblockable because of speed, and hard to dodge or avoid. You can't just ignore that and claim otherwise without reasonable assumption, when that is the general idea that makes guns dangerous

 

[Dalesean027]

Legit what are we even doing here, what is the argument, there are no feats of people blocking or side stepping gunfire, no feats of anyone doing quick swipes of bullets out of the air, no feats of someone seeing gunfire in slow motion or directly perceiving a bullet, all the speed based shit is from subjective calcs half of which are flawed as is which is already something I'm having to cover in another thread once this is over to urge our CGMs are more vigilant in their evolutions.

Like genuinely what is the real argument here if no concrete proof and statement are going to be provided


Like the whole piercing argument makes 0 sense as is anyways when guns are only lethal because of the speed being what allows them to have the range and piercing capabilities because it travels at 300+ m/s to deliver the force from said speed in a small surface area, that's literally how a gun works

 

[Avaritia_603]

Because Guns are commonly known for their lethality and speed, not just because they can kill, but because they are almost unblockable because of speed, and hard to dodge or avoid. You can't just ignore that and claim otherwise without reasonable assumption, when that is the general idea that makes guns dangerous

Just because they do harm from their speed doesnt mean that they would cap from this, this can apply to any weapon, a low tier goon with a baseball bat doesnt have the speed to cause harm to or tag a high tier so it isnt a dangerous weapon. Something being dangerous doesnt necessarily mean it has to be capable of physically interacting in a set situation just that its able to do damage to something, for example in a hypothetical if someone were to shoot mikey while hes tied up and cant move its still dangerous and has nothing to do with how fast mikey is, proving that the original statement wouldnt necessarily need to entail a speed cap.