Low Tier Marvel Comics Speed Revisions

[Rex_Eckles]

Someone's gotta do it.

Part 1: Electra's been replaced
Remember Electra's mach 8.23 feat that's been used to scale about 2/3rds of Marvel? Well now we can use Captain America's mach 11.6 to mach 20 feat to scale everyone to!

Who's affected? Only the street tiers (I can conjure up a list later).

Part 2: The End of an Era
That's right, the age of the low tiers only upscaling street tier speed has ended! There are a lot, and I mean a lot, of feats performed by these tiers that far surpass any accepted street tier calculation. Observe:

1. Mar-Vell flies to the Moon (mach 31)
2. The Model 8 flies at escape velocity (mach 32.61)
3. Model 29 flies out of space (mach 48.59)
4. The Model 29 flies to the ocean (mach 49.42)
5. The Model 29 flies to the Great Barrier Reef (mach 55.72)
6. Wonder Man flies to space while screaming (mach 72.89)
7. Black Bolt flies to stop a solar flare (mach 155.49)
8. Classic Miss Marvel flies 3 hundred miles (mach 281.52)
9. Mar-Vell flies to space (mach 3,316.46)
10. Carol Danvers flies to space again (mach 6,121.5)
11. Namor and Mar-Vell fly to space (mach 6,650.5)
12. Carol Danvers flies to space (mach 8,130.8)
13. Super Skrull flies to space (0.0107 c)
14. Carol Danvers flies to space with a nuke this time (0.0125 c)
15. Namor dodges meteors on Dr. Doom's ship (0.0183 c)
16. The Model 4 flies around the Sun (0.024 c)
17. Mar-Vell flies around the Sun (0.061 c)
18. Rouge flies to the Moon (0.065 c)
19. Black Bolt flies a similar distance to an identical missile to one that went to space really quickly (0.0672 c)

Before you ask, yes there are numerous instances of characters in this tier reacting to their flight speed, Rouge's feat in particular involves her reacting to objects as their fly.

There's debate to be had over which ends are best to use, but I think there are enough Sub-Relativistic to Sub-Relativistic+

Regardless, there's discussion to be had over who should scale to the new ratings, Suigetsuhyugs and I came up with a working (albeit incomplete) list. Let me know who to add:

1. Fantastic Four and their villains
2. Moon Knight and friends (reinstating their "varies" speed rating)
3. Hulk, She-Hulk and related characters
4. Mar-Vell, Ms. Marvel, and related characters
5. Mindless Ones
6. Kree
7. Namor
8. Ikaris and other eternals
9. Black Bolt
10. Executionor
11. AntiMan
12. Awesome Android
13. Fin Fang Foom
14. Ronan and other Accusers
15. Blue Marvel
16. Champion of the Universe
17. Nova (Richard Rider)
18. Vision
19. Tiger Shark
20. Ragnarok
21. Grey Gargoyle
22. Iron Man Armor Model 4 and beyond

I want to specify that the Model 4 has fought characters of this tier of speed, like Rouge in Avengers Annual #10 or his robot doppelgänger who fought the Fantastic Four in Fantastic Four #202.

Part 2.5: Black Bolt (New Addition):
You may be wondering why Black Bolt's feats are crossed out. Well, it's because Black Bolt's speed varies with both the amount of electrons he absorbs and his emotional state, making him an unreliable character to use for scaling.

But let's briefly go into the two feats crossed out above:

• Missile:
  • It's very ambiguous if Black Bolt's deflection of the first missile affected it's speed, so it's possible the missile's initial speed wasn't the same as after the deflection.
• Solar Flare:
  • First problem that it's clearly a peak feat, and thus not usable for scaling to other characters
  • Second problem, the calc is wrong, Black Bolt clearly crosses a farther distance than the solar flare and reacts to it at close range, and given flares move at the speed of light, this would grant Black Bolt at least FTL peak speed, which I'm not advocating for the rest of the low tiers yet.

Part 3: Does Whatever a Spider Can
Okay, so, your friendly neighborhood Spider-man is currently upscaled from both street tiers and some low tiers too. I don't know if it's contentious to rate Spider-man at Sub-Relativistic+ or whatever, but I do know that Scarlet Spider has the outdated "Relativistic with precog" reaction speed, so that needs to be removed.

If we don't end up upgrading Spider-man to sub-rel, we can replace his "at least Hypersonic, likely far higher" with an actual speed value higher than the rest of the street tiers, particularly this one where he pushes the Hulk at mach 88

Regardless, there probably should be discussion over which Spider-man rogues get what upgrades.

 

[Rgerdeena]

I agree with the thread

for spider man I think him upscaling from lower mid tiers is probably best unless anyone has any of his relativistic to FTL speed feats calced, his rogues probably shouldn’t scale because he holds back against them, even in the 60s it was stated he held back against lizard and green goblin

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

I'm here. I worked on this so...

 

[M3X_2.0]

even in the 60s it was stated he held back against lizard and green goblin

And even in the 60s Lizard is stated to be stronger than him, more than once. Stated he won't hold back against him and still get his ass beaten. So this "hold back" gimmick doesn't work as much as you may think. And as of recently Wolverine fought a bloodlusted Spider-Man and beated him, he even said a weakened Wolverine is strong and is popping his stitches to keep him in place.

Sandman's profile has him KOing Spider-Man 4 times. Vulture also seems to blitz him.

Not only his rogues scales but so does Wolverine, probably Captain America as well and I'm sure we can homogenize this scaling to everyone.

 

[Baken384]

if spider-man holding back mentions were crackers, my daughter would be fat

 

[Rgerdeena]

And even in the 60s Lizard is stated to be stronger than him, more than once. Stated he won't hold back against him and still get his ass beaten. So this "hold back" gimmick doesn't work as much as you may think. And as of recently Wolverine fought a bloodlusted Spider-Man and beated him, he even said a weakened Wolverine is strong and is popping his stitches to keep him in place.

Sandman's profile has him KOing Spider-Man 4 times. Vulture also seems to blitz him.

Not only his rogues scales but so does Wolverine, probably Captain America as well and I'm sure we can homogenize this scaling to everyone.

the fist scan doesn’t work for me, the second scan doesn’t say lizard is stronger then him, I fail to see how the third scan is more consistent then the numerous statements of spider man holding back against his villains, the wolverine fight doesn’t mean anything since spider man being really angry and spider man not holding back against wolverine are very different things, sandman varies and is accepted as upper mid tier at peak so I don’t see how he’s relevant, vulture blitzing spider man is not consistent with anything

 

[AguilaR202]

Bullet speed is sort of a wide range, I don’t know if 600 m/s is ‘standard’ but it could be anywhere from Mach 3 or transonic given the speed of common cartridges in the US. So that seems fine

I don’t really agree with the missile calc, it says the missile was inches from his face but the panel before that shows it a good distance away from him with his arm upraised the actual time frame should be lower the actual being the angsize distance from the missile to caps face in the first panel to it being inches from his face and the swing is closer to 180-135 degrees also the distance of the edge of the shield from his palm should be added for the overall length of his swing.

The cruise missile one needs a calc, the shield is very blatantly outspeeding it but icbms only reach hypersonic speeds in the upper atmosphere after minutes of constant acceleration, like it could still be hypersonic because caps shield is several times faster than whatever speed it has at that point.

 

[Osemere]

Agree with everything here

 

[M3X_2.0]

the fist scan doesn’t work for me

Link

the second scan doesn’t say lizard is stronger then him

"My Spider-Sense warned me -- but he was too powerful" I'm not gonna argue semantics with you.

I fail to see how the third scan is more consistent then the numerous statements of spider man holding back against his villains

This "hold back" thing was only relevant during Superior Spider-Man, it's wasn't actually that much of a gimmick because his villains are very much equal to him in strength or stronger.

the wolverine fight doesn’t mean anything since spider man being really angry and spider man not holding back against wolverine are very different things

Why do you gotta invent anything just to not admit that Spider-Man was not holding back against Logan and actively tried to kill him? He was the first person to dislocate his jaw which is an insane feat, if that punch hit anyone they'd die instantly. He was obviously not holding back.

sandman varies and is accepted as upper mid tier at peak so I don’t see how he’s relevant

It's relevant cause he isn't holding back against all his villains. Some of them can KO him and overpower him in strength even when not "holding back".

vulture blitzing spider man is not consistent with anything

Fast enough to the point Spider-Man can't keep him still, much faster than his web and was far enough that Spidey couldn't chase him anymore, easily tags Spider-Man even when he's mid swing with the Spider-Sense warning him about it.

 

[Rex_Eckles]

I don’t really agree with the missile calc, it says the missile was inches from his face but the panel before that shows it a good distance away from him with his arm upraised the actual time frame should be lower the actual being the angsize distance from the missile to caps face in the first panel to it being inches from his face and the swing is closer to 180-135 degrees also the distance of the edge of the shield from his palm should be added for the overall length of it

Take it up with the CGM, I suppose.

The cruise missile one needs a calc, the shield is very blatantly outspeeding it.

Well, for now, it's a good minimum.

Not only his rogues scales but so does Wolverine, probably Captain America as well and I'm sure we can homogenize this scaling to everyone.

That would be nice, but I doubt many would consider that consistent.

 

[M3X_2.0]

That would be nice, but I doubt many would consider that consistent.

Okay lmao look, that's not "nice", that's terrible. It's why I made that thread that no one really wanted to agree. I agree with you that characters should be isolated from some scaling because they are stronger than others. But look how idiotic it is: 72 characters are affected because two of them got their calcs removed. Now one singular Captain America speed feat upgrades characters from Hypersonic to High Hypersonic, it's the 72 previously mentioned profiles + the rest of the 9-Bs which I'm pretty sure it's like 150+. Just like that, if I upgrade huh, let's say, Hawkeye to 9-A, 150+ characters are also gonna be upgraded despite no correlation between them.

Also, if you upgrade the Fantastic Four, you're gonna upgrade Spider-Man for keeping up with Human Torch. And if you upgrade Spider-Man, you're gonna upgrade his rogues and then they would make 9-B characters scale as well. Upgrade Namor and you upgrade Captain America, upgrades She-Hulk and you also upgrades Captain America and Daredevil.

The price to pay for a stupid scaling that no one wants to change.

 

[Rgerdeena]

Link

That was while he was a teenager, while he was weaker then he is as an adult

"My Spider-Sense warned me -- but he was too powerful" I'm not gonna argue semantics with you.

Too powerful and more powerful aren’t the same thing

This "hold back" thing was only relevant during Superior Spider-Man, it's wasn't actually that much of a gimmick because his villains are very much equal to him in strength or stronger.

You have failed to prove this so far

It's relevant cause he isn't holding back against all his villains. Some of them can KO him and overpower him in strength even when not "holding back".

You haven’t proven he wasn’t holding back against sandman, and none of what you just said addresses the fact that sandman varies up to upper mid tier

Fast enough to the point Spider-Man can't keep him still, much faster than his web and was far enough that Spidey couldn't chase him anymore, easily tags Spider-Man even when he's mid swing with the Spider-Sense warning him about it.

Half of this is travel speed, none of this says he wasn’t holding back, and also out of the hundreds of times spider man has fought vulture he is in general just not blitzed by vulture

Why do you gotta invent anything just to not admit that Spider-Man was not holding back against Logan and actively tried to kill him? He was the first person to dislocate his jaw which is an insane feat, if that punch hit anyone they'd die instantly. He was obviously not holding back.

Trying to kill and not holding back aren’t the same thing, dislocating wolverine’s jaw doesn’t at all mean he wasn’t holding back it just means he’s a lot stronger, and that punch being able to instantly kill anyone else is neither true nor relevant

 

[M3X_2.0]

 

[Rex_Eckles]

The price to pay for a stupid scaling that no one wants to change.

Alright, let's fix it then.

 

[M3X_2.0]

Alright, let's fix it then.

Already tried. No success. But I’ll always be in favor it and your thread tries to make it better, so I agree.

 

[Rex_Eckles]

Already tried. No success. But I’ll always be in favor it and your thread tries to make it better, so I agree.

Thanks man.

So, two clarification questions:
1. Which end do you favor for scaling? (i.e. the High Hypersonic, Massively Hypersonic+, Sub-Relativistic+ feats)
2. Can I count you as agree with Spider-man scaling to the "Low Tiers" or just the mach 88 feat or neither?

 

[Tomfer]

Moon Knight and friends (reinstating their "varies" speed rating)

Me when Moon Knight is mentioned

Just make things clear, this is JUST for his 8-B key, right? Nobody should scale to MK there, so it won't upgrade anyone by accident. I'm asking because this "and friends" is really weird and I'm not sure what you meant by that.

 

[Rex_Eckles]

Me when Moon Knight is mentioned

Just make things clear, this is JUST for his 8-B key, right? Nobody should scale to MK there, so it won't upgrade anyone by accident. I'm asking because this "and friends" is really weird and I'm not sure what you meant by that.

He used to have a "varies" for his speed rating before the Model 8 was downgraded, so he'll return to "Varies from street tier speed up to low tier speed". By "friends", I mean like Konshu and I think another one of his heralds or whatever (I don't read Moonkight, but I remember a couple of profiles related to him).

 

[Eseseso]

Looks good, though I do remember sending you a few other F4 calcs that might be worth evaluating


Glad to see Marvel's mid tiers escape the hell of a single digit mach

 

[Rex_Eckles]

Looks good, though I do remember sending you a few other F4 calcs that might be worth evaluating

Next time.

 

[Rgerdeena]

He used to have a "varies" for his speed rating before the Model 8 was downgraded, so he'll return to "Varies from street tier speed up to low tier speed". By "friends", I mean like Konshu and I think another one of his heralds or whatever (I don't read Moonkight, but I remember a couple of profiles related to him).

Konshu is weaker then moon knight

 

[Tomfer]

He used to have a "varies" for his speed

So it was you who took it out, I was curious where that went. You didn't need to take the Varies out like that, lmao.

By "friends", I mean like Konshu

I guess Khonshu scales somewhat, he was the one empowering him during the 8-B thing.

I think another one of his heralds or whatever (I don't read Moonkight, but I remember a couple of profiles related to him).

No clue what you mean here.

 

[Rgerdeena]

No clue what you mean here.

I think he’s talking about hunter’s moon

 

[Tomfer]

I think he’s talking about hunter’s moon

Oh, that makes sense. Tbh I think I should remove the whole 8-B thing from Hunter's Moon.

 

[Armorchompy]

1. Carol Danvers flies to space (mach 8,130.8)
2. Carol Danvers flies to space again (mach 6,121.5)
3. Carol Danvers flies to space with a nuke this time (0.0125 c)
4. Mar-Vell flies to space (mach 3,316.46)
5. Wonder Man flies to space while screaming (mach 72.89)
6. The Model 29 flies to the Great Barrier Reef (mach 55.72)
7. The Model 29 flies to the ocean (mach 49.42)
8. The Model 8 flies at escape velocity (mach 32.61)
9. Classic Miss Marvel flies 3 hundred miles (mach 281.52)
10. Super Skrull flies to space (0.0107 c)
11. The Model 4 flies around the Sun (0.024 c)
12. Mar-Vell flies around the Sun (0.061 c)
13. Mar-Vell flies to the Moon (mach 31)
14. Black Bolt flies a similar distance to an identical missile to one that went to space really quickly (0.0672 c)
15. Namor and Mar-Vell fly to space (mach 6,650.5)
16. Black Bolt flies to stop a solar flare (mach 155.49)
17. Model 29 flies out of space (mach 48.59)
18. Rouge flies to the Moon (0.065 c)

Flight speed is separate from combat speed. Almost none of these are eligible for scaling to reactions.

Also as a calc criticism, usually we assume 3 seconds per panel, not 1 second.

Okay, so, your friendly neighborhood Spider-man is currently upscaled from both street tiers and some low tiers too. I don't know if it's contentious to rate Spider-man at Sub-Relativistic+ or whatever, but I do know that Scarlet Spider has the outdated "Relativistic with precog" reaction speed, so that needs to be removed.

If we don't end up upgrading Spider-man to sub-rel, we can replace his "at least Hypersonic, likely far higher" with an actual speed value higher than the rest of the street tiers, particularly this one where he pushes the Hulk at mach 88

Regardless, there probably should be discussion over which Spider-man rogues get what upgrades.

Spider-Man isn't consistently blitz-worthy faster than other street tiers. Rogues, people in crossovers, just about anyone can threaten him even though he's basically the most acrobatic character in the verse and has precog. Go through any decently researched Spidey rogue profile and you'll see them pushing his shit in on a handful of occasions, and no it's not "holds back" he has absolutely no reason to be holding back his speed and it's not like he can willingly lower his reaction speed or turn off Spider Sense. It's not consistent to split his speed scaling from the rest.

 

[Rgerdeena]

Flight speed is separate from combat speed. Almost none of these are eligible for scaling to reactions.

Also as a calc criticism, usually we assume 3 seconds per panel, not 1 second.

Spider-Man isn't consistently blitz-worthy faster than other street tiers. Rogues, people in crossovers, just about anyone can threaten him even though he's basically the most acrobatic character in the verse and has precog. Go through any decently researched Spidey rogue profile and you'll see them pushing his shit in on a handful of occasions, and no it's not "holds back" he has absolutely no reason to be holding back his speed and it's not like he can willingly lower his reaction speed or turn off Spider Sense. It's not consistent to split his speed scaling from the rest.

He literally almost ignores his spider sense half the time, there are multiple instances where he didn’t see the danger so he didn’t listen to his spider sense, also his spider sense is kind of trash when it comes to danger warning compared to other stuff it can do, and he does have reason to lower his combat and reactions speed, the faster you go the more damage you do even if fiction isn’t 100% following the laws of physics, like it is honestly ridiculous that people are fine with that Thor holds back his speed and herald tiers in general hold back their speed but when it comes to spider man there’s no reason to hold back his speed

 

[SamanPatou]

I won't delve too much into the thread, but I want to toss in my two cents regarding Spider-Man's rogues, since I've revised most of their files.
First, I would keep things separate from strength and speed, because Spider-Man holding back is and always was a thing, but since we don't have a UES at play here, and Spider-Man has all the reasons in the world to not want to hack anyone's head off while still wanting to keep his own, it makes sense for him to hold back strength but not speed.
He is indeed generally faster and more agile than most of his rogues, and while they often get the edge on him due to distractions or sheer numbers, they indeed manage to tag, clip and strike him clean in several 1v1 bouts, making them pretty comparable to him, albeit inferior.

 

[KLOL506]

Agree with the Hypersonic+ stuff, will wait for more opinions on the MHS+ and Sub-Rela/Rela stuff.

You should find more scans of people actually engaging in combat mid-flight, not just reacting to stuff.

 

[KLOL506]

Bullet speed is sort of a wide range, I don’t know if 600 m/s is ‘standard’ but it could be anywhere from Mach 3 or transonic given the speed of common cartridges in the US. So that seems fine

I already gave recommendations. It should use 7.62 Tokarev handgun bullets (Given it takes place in some nameless commie country and seems to be taking places during the 60s-70s) and even that would wield Hypersonic in the 2200 m/s range. If any rifles are present in these scans like the AK47 (I couldn't find any) then it jumps to Hypersonic+

 

[Rgerdeena]

I won't delve too much into the thread, but I want to toss in my two cents regarding Spider-Man's rogues, since I've revised most of their files.
First, I would keep things separate from strength and speed, because Spider-Man holding back is and always was a thing, but since we don't have a UES at play here, and Spider-Man has all the reasons in the world to not want to hack anyone's head off while still wanting to keep his own, it makes sense for him to hold back strength but not speed.
He is indeed generally faster and more agile than most of his rogues, and while they often get the edge on him due to distractions or sheer numbers, they indeed manage to tag, clip and strike him clean in several 1v1 bouts, making them pretty comparable to him, albeit inferior.

I would agree with you, but spider man is already dumb with how he holds back, he should hold back to be a little stronger then his villains but not enough to injure them but he doesn’t, and so unless there’s somewhere that it’s stated that he doesn’t hold back his speed I find it hard to believe he’s dumb with how he holds back strength but not with how he holds back speed

 

[Rex_Eckles]

So it was you who took it out, I was curious where that went. You didn't need to take the Varies out like that, lmao.

Well, since the Model 8 wasn't MHS+, I figured it would look weird to say "varies" but then only have one rating.

Flight speed is separate from combat speed. Almost none of these are eligible for scaling to reactions.

See what I said next:

Before you ask, yes there are numerous instances of characters in this tier reacting to their flight speed, Black Bolt and Rouge's feats in particular involve them reacting to objects as their fly.

Also as a calc criticism, usually we assume 3 seconds per panel, not 1 second.

Really? Another CGM told me 1 second per panel is the norm. I guess it's case-by-case, then?

 

[Rex_Eckles]

You should find more scans of people actually engaging in combat mid-flight, not just reacting to stuff.

Noted.

 

[Armorchompy]

and he does have reason to lower his combat and reactions speed, the faster you go the more damage you do even if fiction isn’t 100% following the laws of physics

That makes literally no sense, what? The speed he dodges at doesn't need to be 1 to 1 consistent with the speed he punches at and that's doubly true for his perception speed.

, like it is honestly ridiculous that people are fine with that Thor holds back his speed and herald tiers in general hold back their speed but when it comes to spider man there’s no reason to hold back his speed

It's stupid for Thor, doesn't make it less stupid to say it for Peter too.

Really? Another CGM told me 1 second per panel is the norm. I guess it's case-by-case, then?

I've only heard 3 per panel. I'm not sure if 1 is something people have started doing though.

 

[Rex_Eckles]

I've only heard 3 per panel. I'm not sure if 1 is something people have started doing though.

This calc I got evaluated had this recommendation for 1 second per panel.

 

[Rgerdeena]

That makes literally no sense, what? The speed he dodges at doesn't need to be 1 to 1 consistent with the speed he punches at and that's doubly true for his perception speed.

Like I already said he is dumb with how he holds back, he doesn’t think to hold back to an extent that he is slightly stronger then his opponents but not massively stronger and he isn’t going to be much smarter when it comes to how he holds back speed

It's stupid for Thor, doesn't make it less stupid to say it for Peter too.

literally nearly any hold back is stupid despite existing, they should based on logic hold back to an extent that they are slightly stronger then their opponent instead of massively stronger, and despite that they are stated to hold back to an extent that their weaker

 

[Rex_Eckles]

You should find more scans of people actually engaging in combat mid-flight, not just reacting to stuff.

I'm here. I worked on this so...

Hey Suigetsuhyugs, could you give me a hand? I'm focusing on Iron Man because he's objectively the coolest.

 

[Rgerdeena]

Hey Suigetsuhyugs, could you give me a hand? I'm focusing on Iron Man because he's objectively the coolest.

Is it because iron man has the most comics out of the upper mid tiers and therefore likely has the most examples

 

[Rex_Eckles]

Is it because iron man has the most comics out of the upper mid tiers and therefore likely has the most examples

Nah, I just like him, recently read Demon in a Bottle.

 

[Lonkitt]

I agree with the thread

for spider man I think him upscaling from lower mid tiers is probably best unless anyone has any of his relativistic to FTL speed feats calced, his rogues probably shouldn’t scale because he holds back against them, even in the 60s it was stated he held back against lizard and green goblin

No way we still got “Holdsback-Man” merchants in 2026

 

[Rgerdeena]

No way we still got “Holdsback-Man” merchants in 2026

No one other then samanpatou has made a decent argument against him holding back, and samanpatou’s argument i disagree with more so because of my take on how holding back works then anything that either side can likely prove