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Papyrus (who is intended to represent human skeleton) is prolly closer to average adult male height than Mettaton(machine made for entertainment and war). And figuring his battle sprite height is a bit less easier.
I don't think we can say Papyrus's height is of an average height just because he represents the human skeleton because if so... what is Sans? A dwarf's skeleton?
Calc size of "ACT" button. Why specifically it? It's the most ubiquitous part of battle system (it even appears in Omega Flowey, and remains in the fight with Asriel till the end)
Will wait for any justification and confirmation from the verses' supporters that Asgore/Toriel should scale to 12 vines at the same time from Flowey before adding it. If you get it then I will add it.
Enters the same complaint that people had with the 15cm soul as it also uses the overworld sprites. And also:
(it goes back to 15cm with Asgore)
If we really don't want any inconsistencies between the two, Armor's suggestion is the best as it removes any pixel scaling relation between overworld and battle mode.
I don't think we can say Papyrus's height is of an average height just because he represents the human skeleton because if so... what is Sans? A dwarf's skeleton?
1.7m seems to be the accepted average height for calcs here as it's the worldwide average, your calculation is the average for the United States only.
Around 80cm.
Will wait for any justification and confirmation from the verses' supporters that Asgore/Toriel should scale to 12 vines at the same time from Flowey before adding it. If you get it then I will add it.
1 more vote needed before finishing it.
Enters the same complaint that people had with the 15cm soul as it also uses the overworld sprites. And also:
(it goes back to 15cm with Asgore)
If we really don't want any inconsistencies between the two, Armor's suggestion is the best as it removes any pixel scaling relation between overworld and battle mode.
Regardless,
Can a mod please at least ping someone else, one more vote is needed.
I don't think we can say Papyrus's height is of an average height just because he represents the human skeleton because if so... what is Sans? A dwarf's skeleton?
Sans is clearly intended to be much shorter than Papyrus and most notable monsters, and at same height as Frisk, pretty young kid(while being older than Frisk). Lends to credence to my idea to just scale Papyrus height off Frisk overworld sprite, which would make him 185-190 cm on height, which is perfectly consistent with showings.
In short, Armor proposed to either assume Mettaton or Papyrus as someone with average adult male height. You used Mettaton. I think Papyrus should be preferred over Mettaton:
1. There a bit more reason to assume monster that represents human skeleton is closer to average height than robot main goals of whom is war and entertainment. To provide specific argument: Celebrities often try to appear taller than they actually are, since it makes their perception by audience a bit better(humans are in fact biased towards taller individuals). Mettaton should know about this, and would obviously try to ask from Alphys to create for him a tall body
2. Mettaton battle sprite doesn't stand up normally(it usually takes some strange poses), unlike Papyrus. Which makes pixelscaling Papyrus a bit easier and less prone to mistakes
Toby is from US. It's height of adults in the US that influences his perception about average height, not the average worldwide height. And monsters in pacifist credits clearly live in US(or very similar to it country). Human tech they get from surface is from same country. If we are arguing that they height seems to be normal compared to humans and their tech, we should clearly compare it to height of people that live in countries that UT humans live, and it's definitely more similar to US than average country.
Will wait for any justification and confirmation from the verses' supporters that Asgore/Toriel should scale to 12 vines at the same time from Flowey before adding it. If you get it then I will add it.
If you missed it:
1. Flowey does restraining with vines in character. In fact it's almost first thing he does.
2. Restraining does significantly weaken opponents, and thus clearly beneficial, even if you are massively weaker. And in same cases it totally paralyses enemy(against Frisk, who lacks magic)
3. Your reasoning would give Asgore/Toriel/Lv 19 Frisk lower LS than Flowey can have with max vines.
4. Flowey clearly wants to kill or neutralise these individuals above
5. Yet, he doesn't use restraining against them
Most logical option would be to just put them above Flowey max LS.
Sans is clearly intended to be much shorter than Papyrus and most notable monsters, and at same height as Frisk, pretty young kid(while being older than Frisk). Lends to credence to my idea to just scale Papyrus height off Frisk overworld sprite, which would make him 185-190 cm on height, which is perfectly consistent with showings.
In short, Armor proposed to either assume Mettaton or Papyrus as someone with average adult male height. You used Mettaton. I think Papyrus should be preferred over Mettaton:
1. There a bit more reason to assume monster that represents human skeleton is closer to average height than robot main goals of whom is war and entertainment. To provide specific argument: Celebrities often try to appear taller than they actually are, since it makes their perception by audience a bit better(humans are in fact biased towards taller individuals). Mettaton should know about this, and would obviously try to ask from Alphys to create for him a tall body
2. Mettaton battle sprite doesn't stand up normally(it usually takes some strange poses), unlike Papyrus. Which makes pixelscaling Papyrus a bit easier and less prone to mistakes
My point remains, Sans is still a skeleton and has a way too different size compared to Papyrus even tho they are both "adult skeleton monsters" there's literally nothing proving that Papyrus would be the average just because he's a skeleton because at that point Sans would have to be... a dwarf's skeleton? I think Mettaton is the best middle of the road one and I already did the pixel scaling correctly with how tall he would be standing up so I dont think the sprite matters.
Toby is from US. It's height of adults in the US that influences his perception about average height, not the average worldwide height. And monsters in pacifist credits clearly live in US(or very similar to it country). Human tech they get from surface is from same country. If we are arguing that they height seems to be normal compared to humans and their tech, we should clearly compare it to height of people that live in countries that UT humans live, and it's definitely more similar to US than average country.
If you missed it:
1. Flowey does restraining with vines in character. In fact it's almost first thing he does.
2. Restraining does significantly weaken opponents, and thus clearly beneficial, even if you are massively weaker. And in same cases it totally paralyses enemy(against Frisk, who lacks magic)
3. Your reasoning would give Asgore/Toriel/Lv 19 Frisk lower LS than Flowey can have with max vines.
4. Flowey clearly wants to kill or neutralise these individuals above
5. Yet, he doesn't use restraining against them
Most logical option would be to just put them above Flowey max LS.
Why would they not just dodge it, we accept them as faster;
If flowey's restrain is able to completely paralyse Frisk I think this is telling Flowey > Frisk in LS otherwise they'd break free...? Why would you not just break free?
Not only can they just dodge the vines as I said but you'd have to say Flowey hits them with 12 vines before they even get out of one. And, especially for Asgore and Toriel, they have fire magic. They can just attack even while being restrained (we saw that in the Asriel intro) they could just burn all of his vines by blasting it with their fire magic;
Where is the proof that Flowey didn't try to restrain them but failed because of what I said?
It's way too hypothetical and way too much assumptions imo, however I will say it again, if the supporters are actually okay with this, I don't plan on keeping this thread any longer at this point considering how overextended it was already.
--
Will begin editing of the changes meanwhile considering the 3rd staff vote just happened.
Depending on how nerfed the verse gets, there won't be any more matches I enjoy discuss; maybe the only interesting thing remaining to play a match with is that damn skeleton.
Depending on how nerfed the verse gets, there won't be any more matches I enjoy discuss; maybe the only interesting thing remaining to play a match with is that damn skeleton.
Erm actually all characters have dura neg rn (but if you assume ALL downgrades get passed, then Sans will lose his dura neg too, since it's planned to be nuked as well)
All changes applied with the exception of the calculation above as I said as Strym or one of the mods just needs to change the value in the calculation.
Will ask the thread to be closed (alongside the change).
My point remains, Sans is still a skeleton and has a way too different size compared to Papyrus even tho they are both "adult skeleton monsters" there's literally nothing proving that Papyrus would be the average just because he's a skeleton because at that point Sans would have to be... a dwarf's skeleton? I think Mettaton is the best middle of the road one and I already did the pixel scaling correctly with how tall he would be standing up so I dont think the sprite matters.
1. Using for Papyrus height average height is lowball. He is probably much higher than average(thus making Sans just a shorty, instead of dwarf).
2. If you use Mettaton height as average you would still have problem of Sans being very short. And they way you calculated it, Papyrus is even smaller than Mettaton, so problem of Sans being dwarf is even more acute.
3. They way you calculated Mettaton during pose, implies that this pose actually lowers height by very significant margin. I tried do repeat this pose myself, and reduction in height is nowhere similar to one your method implies. Just use different pose
Why would they not just dodge it, we accept them as faster;
If flowey's restrain is able to completely paralyse Frisk I think this is telling Flowey > Frisk in LS otherwise they'd break free...? Why would you not just break free?
Not only can they just dodge the vines as I said but you'd have to say Flowey hits them with 12 vines before they even get out of one. And, especially for Asgore and Toriel, they have fire magic. They can just attack even while being restrained (we saw that in the Asriel intro) they could just burn all of his vines by blasting it with their fire magic;
Where is the proof that Flowey didn't try to restrain them b
1. Flowey stealth mastery
2. ?!? You are putting Frisk below Flowey LS. They shouldn't be able to break free
3. Notice how in Asriel intro how few they fireballs are. Their ability to cast magic is severely reduced
4. He didn't try to restrain Frisk, he didn't try to restrain Toriel while we were with her
My point remains, Sans is still a skeleton and has a way too different size compared to Papyrus even tho they are both "adult skeleton monsters" there's literally nothing proving that Papyrus would be the average just because he's a skeleton because at that point Sans would have to be... a dwarf's skeleton?
Fair and simple, I think alot of the calculations in the UNDERTALE page are wrong. Pyrope's Bomb The calculation is using 20 PSI for no apparent reason. This should be replaced with a lower PSI as the explosion causes no visible destruction and doesn't even kill Frisk when they get hit. There's...
Being blunt: The "feats" here are not meant to be used for scaling and are entirely faked in-verse.
After Mettaton "breaks the wall", when you go check in the hole, it's said that the space behind the wall is "only a few feet wide". This alone already tells you something. Mettaton was placed in a hole inside the wall created by someone, the whole feat isn't natural. Taking a look at mettaton's width:
Mettaton is around 1.2 meters wide. He should have around the same depth (just a tad less) since he's almsot a cubical shape. "A few feet wide" would mean around the 3 feet ranges. The equivalent of 3 feet into meters is 0.91m. Putting it together with the fact that Mettaton had to be inside that space behind the wall, it is very much clear that the entire feat was made on a shallow fake wall. Alphys dug/created a space behind his wall and put Mettaton inside and waited for you so Mettaton could "break through" the wall as an act. This is not interpretation or headcanon, because Toby Fox himself clarifies this during the UNDERTALE anniversary stream:
TLDR: Both the Wall destroying feat and Bomb feat are faked and all scripted with props and stuff created by Alphys. It shouldn't be treated as a legitimate scale, especially now that the verse is not at the level of those supposed "feats".
Part 3: Issue in the Pixel Scaling in-verse + establishing a base for it. Currently, for calculations for feats that happen inside the Battle Box we use this singular in-between frame of Frisk and the Soul as a fight starts. That leads to insanely big attacks which are not meant to be that size. Here's multiple examples:
Papyrus, according to the current soul size, makes a huge bone of over 4 meters long and a huge amount of bones that are all over 80cm long, and, throuhgout the fight uses an amount of around 409 bones in total, which, while not being as big as the 4 meters one, are still around the same zize if not bigger than the 80 cm long bones. Despite all of that, he is able to keep all the attacks he used throughout the fight against you in a singular box in his room. For comparission, the current volume of the 80cm bones is around 0.26m^3. If we use the fact that he used 409 bones (even ignoring that alot of bones are bigger as that'd make it worse), it'd mean the total volume that all his attacks occupy 106.34m^3. That would fill Papyrus's entire room.
Mettaton during his fight uses leg attacks. This attacks are meant to be just like his actual legs. That's very clearly the intention of them. Despite this, if we use the current soul size, those legs are almost 7 meters long. Which isn't the case at all as we can see Mettaton's legs size in the overworld are barely around Frisk's height.
You have a flexing competition against Aaron during his fight where you both are flexing against each other, because of that his attacks are his actual arms flexing towards you. But as you can see his arms are shown as way bigger than the soul. Even though- you get the point.
There's obviously more examples, this is just some of them. The attacks and the soul itself is obviously not meant to be that big as we currently make it out to be. The in-battle sprites are obviously in different size than the actual size of stuff, so what I propose is very simple:
(Calc link)
The soul width should be changed to around 0.15m aka 15cm via Mettaton's heart-shaped core.
I consider this way more consistent with what the story makes its size to be alongside the fact that the heart shaped core is actually meant and showed to be simillar to the heart shaped soul while being something that just straight up fits around mettaton's waist alone. More examples of this being consistent are:
This soul size being 15cm also makes in-battle sizes just overall way more consistent aswell obviously.
There are two scenes where souls do look bigger aka here and here, the point of the thread and in general is to say that the soul being around 15cm is way more consistent with everything else. The mettaton way is used because it is something that logically has to be that size otherwise it would not fit on mettaton's waist which makes this the most logical and consistent way of doing it especially due to how it's way more consistent with the sizes of everything else said in the thread. Please refrain from addressing those two scenes as "gotchas" on the soul not being that small. The whole point is that it is more consistently around 15cm than 40-50cm.
(Edit2) - New Solution (ACCEPTED) Due to constant arguing, @Armorchompy brought up another solution for this issue:
My point is that Undertale's visuals, especially the overworld visuals, aren't really drawn to exact scale and with how small Frisk's sprites are the Soul necessarily needs to be drawn bigger to be easily visible - that size is not necessarily trustworthy. My suggestion is that we should use the enemy sprites in the battle box to scale things instead. Simplest thing, assuming we don't have canon heights, would be to assume someone like Mettaton or Papyrus are the height of an adult man (assuming we don't have canon heights) and get the battle box' rough scale from them, thus cutting out the Soul entirely. (EXAMPLE: Let's say that Mettaton is 340 px tall 170 cm individual, this means that every px is 0.5 cm. Thus in any other battle we can just use that value to pixel scale things, without the Soul being even involved).
I admit that the downside of this method is that it relies on the assumption that the scale of the battle box is roughly consistent between different encounters. However while I'm sure it's not 100% consistent I'd be surprised if there were any massive exceptions and getting a rough sense of scale is enough to avoid massive calc flaws. Battle sprites aren't 1-to-1 consistent with overworld sprites in regards of relative size but they're the more detailed and larger ones so I don't think that's an inconsistency on the combat's end. In fact I think the whole reason for this debacle is that the overworld's visuals are not internally consistent due to stylization, and I think it's a good idea to prioritize the combat visuals due to higher fidelity.
This isn't an issue in Deltarune where the combat and overworld are more clearly to scale (given we see a direct transition between the two). But in that game you can just scale directly off Kris themself. (Message)
The reason I thought of Mettaton was that A: he's human-like to the point that you can assume he's the height of a man and B: he sends attacks directly from his body so there's still direct battle box interaction
I'd prefer not using a measurement scaled off the overworld graphics at all, but truthfully I don't mind most solutions as long as they're not too insane. (Message2)
(Both possibilities are in the same calc blog just to note)
Part 1.5: Applying Calc Group Thread changes (RECALCS) Going back to this, considering part 4, this should be the new calculations that were accepted to be recalculated in that way in the thread:
There's also this calculation for Flowey that has been accepted in both comments and in the thread to be used and will be the recalculation used for his elevator feat.
The Full power of a single Human soul would be rated as 8-B (20 Tons of TNT) (0.001 * 20000) due to it containing enough power to match the entire Underground population as the current calculation does (the value needs to be changed).
The Full power of a single Human soul would be rated as High 8-C+ (10 Tons of TNT) (0.0005 * 20000) due to it containing enough power to match the entire Underground population as the current calculation does (the value needs to be changed).
The monsters who scale to new Flowey's calc is tricky.
What I propose is that monsters like Asgore and Toriel should scale to a singular vine of said feat as they are superior to Flowey.
For that I suggest using 12 vines because of this. Which would mean Asgore and Toriel (and everyone who scales) would be Class 50 (47.775 Tons) and Flowey would vary between that and Class K (575.3 Tons) depending on the amount of vines.
"possibly Massively Hypersonic+" should be removed from all pages that have it.
As @StrymULTRApointed out, Omega Flowey would also scale to Class K (575.3 Tons) as he overpowered Asgore, Toriel (both scaling to 47.775 Tons each), Papyrus, Undyne (12.5 Tons each) and Sans and Alphys (0.443189101424 Tons each), getting 121.44 Tons in total. His lifting strength wouldbe: "Class K, higher with all vines"
All changes applied with the exception of the calculation above as I said as Strym or one of the mods just needs to change the value in the calculation.
Will ask the thread to be closed (alongside the change).
If you use Mettaton height as average you would still have problem of Sans being very short. And they way you calculated it, Papyrus is even smaller than Mettaton, so problem of Sans being dwarf is even more acute.
The difference is that the basis for the Mettaton height being average isn't "he's a skeleton that should be the same as a human" so it doesn't contradict with whatever size adult monsters skeletons like Sans can be while with saying Papyrus being average, the basis for it is literally "he is a skeleton" while Sans also is.
They way you calculated Mettaton during pose, implies that this pose actually lowers height by very significant margin. I tried do repeat this pose myself, and reduction in height is nowhere similar to one your method implies. Just use different pose
Huh? Yk it depends on how your body is built right, not everyone has the same legs to upper body ratio in height, regardless:
The height I got was 526px, Mettaton when tippy toeing is 542px. The height I got would indeed be around the correct one considering how Mettaton's legs are. I made sure the sprite I got was the best one we have, don't worry.
I don't think his stealth mastery will hide 12 huge vines coming towards their direction unless you think he throws them one by one which at that point, they would break out. You are also forgetting the vines spread around the body so it isn't a linear addition. For example Asgore's body can have 5 vines around him, if only one vine is on his arm he can still break his arm free from that one since he is superior to one vine, etc etc.
Considering Flowey straight up says he thinks he has no chance of beating Asgore without Frisk. I think a single fireball would burn an entire vine away, it's not like they need to use alot. Also the magic being reduced should not be equivalent since that Flowey had the 6 souls already so he is obviously restraining them with much more force and with less effort than regular flowey could ever do.
Cause he knew he'd have no chance if a fight initiated? I don't think you understand how hard it would be for him to hit 12 vines on them before they even get out of one when they are faster than him.
I think it's just too hypothetical. You'd be working on a perfect world where Flowey is somehow able to sneak them, use a total of 12 vines and all of them hit perfectly in a proportional ratio to not let a single part that they can use to break free be with less vines and assume Asgore wouldn't just blast them with his fires just because his magic is reduced slightly. This seems too absurd to just use. Especially with the amount of vines, are we saying Asgore is like 12x stronger than Flowey?
It is simply easier for the current blog to be modified instead of creating a new one as the current one is already good enough (the new one would basically just be copy and pasting it with a different value, kinda useless in my opinion) and it removes the need of editing all the pages where it's used, mainly because one of the pages that uses it is locked (Asriel w/Chara's soul key)
It is simply easier for the current blog to be modified instead of creating a new one as the current one is already good enough (the new one would basically just be copy and pasting it with a different value, kinda useless in my opinion) and it removes the need of editing all the pages where it's used, mainly because one of the pages that uses it is locked (Asriel w/Chara's soul key)
For some reason that's what it was before even when the entire verse was H8-C (he was "Likely H8-C"), there's no inverse scaling for Asriel according to what the page said before and, even if I obviously agree he should be 9-B, my CRT doesn't tackle that. I don't know if it was a mistake or not madde by whoever created/edited the page/key so I didn't change it.
The height I got was 526px, Mettaton when tippy toeing is 542px. The height I got would indeed be around the correct one considering how Mettaton's legs are. I made sure the sprite I got was the best one we have, don't worry.
We obviously don't calculate height of tippy toeing humanoid from lowest point of their feet, but instead from back of their feets(cus entire point of tippy toeing is artificially raising height from the ground). Plus Mettaton haircut definitely seems to be voluminous and high one, so a bit lower point of the hair should be used(cus, you know, height is from feet to head, not the hair). To show my suggestion, it should look something like this(don't forget that he is wearing heels).
LS seems fine for now. I will tackle it later
(Sorry for deleting original response, it had wrong image)
For some reason that's what it was before even when the entire verse was H8-C (he was "Likely H8-C"), there's no inverse scaling for Asriel according to what the page said before and, even if I obviously agree he should be 9-B, my CRT doesn't tackle that. I don't know if it was a mistake or not madde by whoever created/edited the page/key so I didn't change it.
We obviously don't calculate height of tippy toeing humanoid from lowest point of their feet, but instead from back of their feets(cus entire point of tippy toeing is artificially raising height from the ground). Plus Mettaton haircut definitely seems to be voluminous and high one, so a bit lower point of the hair should be used(cus, you know, height is from feet to head, not the hair). To show my suggestion, it should look something like this(don't forget that he is wearing heels).
Mettaton does not stand on the end of his shoe so the tippy toeining wouldn't start there but somewhere in middle between both which would reach again basically the same px. And I used the same end of where the hair is for both scenarios so the height is the same. Your pixel scaling is also still broken btw.
Sure, just waiting for the profile page to be opened again, once this two final changes are applied will ask for the thread to be closed. (Everything else is finished)
Around 80cm.
(it goes back to 15cm with Asgore)
