Darth Vader vs Muzan

[Phsccarvalho]

Well, I start work in 30 minutes, so from that time on I'll only be able to look instead of replying.

The same thing as yesterday.

 

[Epyriel]

All of those gaps are hypothetical, there is no one way to ascertain a concrete speed value for either, so one must stick with what is given, and it remains that ~2x isn't enough. If we do want to make an estimate, then Obi-Wan's feat of blocking a laser was done pretty casually and without struggle, which leads me to believe a serious Obi-Wan would be faster, and by chainscaling so would Vader - by a lot.

They aren’t hypothetical, the only one we don’t have a direct feat for is Muzan’s gap from Kokushibo.

Sanemi got perception blitzed by LS Kokushibo when Marked Gyomei didn’t, and then TW Gyomei kept up with LS Kokushibo more directly, only to get perception blitzed by Monster Kokushibo.

And the feat being casual doesn’t help matters either, since Mitsuri’s feat was also done casually.

He has indeed TKed someone from far away, when he killed Ozzel. Don't see why he wouldn't clock in what he needs to do when he has the abilities for such, nor why would seeing Enmu be a necessity.

Looking at a target is natural. This feels like a bit of a NLF on his danger sense, because instantly picking out who he can’t look at (before he actually looks at them) and who he needs to immediately paste all from 4km away is a level of foresight and immediacy that seems rather beyond what has been portrayed in the past considering all the times he gets sneak attacked or ambushed and doesn’t precog it until the last moment.

So with the same ability Vader has to a greater extent. He finds her and incapacitates or kills her, I don't see a way that doesn't happen.

I am really unsure how you are coming to this conclusion.

Like what is stopping Nakime from just sending the entire super-structure he is standing on thirty kilometres away, or re-arranging her own to send herself kilometres above Vader’s head? Plus gravity swapping to make things worse?

When did he control the Castle? I don't recall this.

He can control all bound demons, for Nakime you can see his active struggle for control at the end of the IC arc where he contests Yushiro.

But don't the demons need to be summoned first? Is Muzan's first move in a fight to summon all the moons to help him right from the start?

-

With all this discussion, I'm thinking that Pochita vs. Muzan ended way too quickly.

Based on the past Makima matches I’m under the impression that the puppeteer starts off with all their minions.

 

[Xavis10]

They aren’t hypothetical, the only one we don’t have a direct feat for is Muzan’s gap from Kokushibo.

Hypothetical insofar as we don't have a quantifier. I wasn't denying the gaps themselves.

Sanemi got perception blitzed by LS Kokushibo when Marked Gyomei didn’t, and then TW Gyomei kept up with LS Kokushibo more directly, only to get perception blitzed by Monster Kokushibo.

So 2 blitz gaps, with the first not even being a full perception blitz. Accounts to 2.5/3 gaps overall, which I don't see a reason to not be equivalent to the myriad of gaps between CW Obi-Wan and prime Vader.

And the feat being casual doesn’t help matters either, since Mitsuri’s feat was also done casually.

Which one, the lightning feat or the - alleged - light feat? I don't follow demon slayer in this wiki, so I don't know if the Reddit scalers already proposed it. Either way, the reasoning stands.

Looking at a target is natural. This feels like a bit of a NLF on his danger sense, because instantly picking out who he can’t look at (before he actually looks at them) and who he needs to immediately paste all from 4km away is a level of foresight and immediacy that seems rather beyond what has been portrayed in the past considering all the times he gets sneak attacked or ambushed and doesn’t precog it until the last moment.

If that feels too NLF (it isn't), then I'll just say he pastes the LMs all at once. It's in character for him to kill the grunts immediately. Likewise, I don't believe Enmu has ever displayed sleep manipulation on a distance of 4km, he only ever used it close range or through something imbued with his blood or whatever it was. It goes both ways.

I am really unsure how you are coming to this conclusion.

Like what is stopping Nakime from just sending the entire super-structure he is standing on thirty kilometres away, or re-arranging her own to send herself kilometres above Vader’s head? Plus gravity swapping to make things worse?

Being blitzed and/or killed. If she does that, Vader will sense who did it. BFR here isn't quite the win-con, especially when Vader's force range excels what we've seen the IC cover. Either crushes her utterly or just immobilizes her enough until he gets to wherever she is.

He can control all bound demons, for Nakime you can see his active struggle for control at the end of the IC arc where he contests Yushiro.

Thank you.


Edit: just realized Vader can also just mind control the demons to try and kill Muzan. They'll either get immediately killed by Muzan for being a liability or rendered useless due to a struggle between the minds/wills/whatever of Vader and Muzan.

 

[Epyriel]

Hypothetical insofar as we don't have a quantifier. I wasn't denying the gaps themselves.

So 2 blitz gaps, with the first not even being a full perception blitz. Accounts to 2.5/3 gaps overall, which I don't see a reason to not be equivalent to the myriad of gaps between CW Obi-Wan and prime Vader.

Which one, the lightning feat or the - alleged - light feat? I don't follow demon slayer in this wiki, so I don't know if the Reddit scalers already proposed it. Either way, the reasoning stands.

Current rating is based on a multiplier for Marked Sanemi applied to this lightning dodging feat. A new guy tried applying the light statements at one point but all got rejected.

And I have my doubts about the speed gaps being that significant, I mean Canon Vader wasn’t even blitzing Kanan. The differences in speed in SW just never seem to be so substantial as to the point where an opponent can’t react, let alone can’t perceive an attack.

If that feels too NLF (it isn't), then I'll just say he pastes the LMs all at once. It's in character for him to kill the grunts immediately. Likewise, I don't believe Enmu has ever displayed sleep manipulation on a distance of 4km, he only ever used it close range or through something imbued with his blood or whatever it was. It goes both ways.

Enmu’s sleep manipulation is just based on you looking at his eyes, don’t think that logic is quite analogous. And I’m still very doubtful of him being able to reduce every single piece of someone to nothing but a fine layer of blood when he has never shown anything comparable, let alone to a dozen people spread out, all at once, kilometres away, off the bat.

Being blitzed and/or killed. If she does that, Vader will sense who did it. BFR here isn't quite the win-con, especially when Vader's force range excels what we've seen the IC cover. Either crushes her utterly or just immobilizes her enough until he gets to wherever she is.

Blitzing someone through a pocket dimension from kilometres away? Where every structure can be shifted as they please? And all they need to do is strum a chord?

And c’mon, Vader is not some master assassin that can just kill anyone at any time by thought regardless of distance or line of sight. People escaping from Darth Vader is like the most common trope in the series. He ain’t instantly pasting someone down to nothing but blood through all of this:

 

[Phsccarvalho]

Based on the past Makima matches I’m under the impression that the puppeteer starts off with all their minions.

It depends on the character. But the standard, as far as I know, is no. For example, if a character can summon others, as far as I know, the standard is that matches don't start with all characters summoned. It depends on some circumstances. Some characters can only fight with others assisting them, so the standard is that they are already in the match. Or characters that only fight in pairs, or depend on the existence of another being. As far as I know, unless character X always/or most of the time fights with all their summoned characters already summoned from the beginning, this isn't a standard.

It also depends on the character. In DBH, for example, since they are game characters, they basically summon other characters as their initial move.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

People escaping from Darth Vader is like the most common trope in the series.

Well, it's canon that Vader likes to prolong the war, so it's not really a big deal for someone to escape him.

 

[Xavis10]

Current rating is based on a multiplier for Marked Sanemi applied to this lightning dodging feat. A new guy tried applying the light statements at one point but all got rejected.

And I have my doubts about the speed gaps being that significant, I mean Canon Vader wasn’t even blitzing Kanan. The differences in speed in SW just never seem to be so substantial as to the point where an opponent can’t react, let alone can’t perceive an attack.

And that's fine, but the amount of gaps lead me to believe it's quite substantial to the point I don't think it's prudent to think Muzan and Kokushibo are definitively blitzing Vader. Even if they do, he can just hold them still telekinetically for long enough while dealing with other grunts until he's able to focus on them.

Enmu’s sleep manipulation is just based on you looking at his eyes, don’t think that logic is quite analogous.

And Vader's precognition and extrasensory abilities - all of them - supersede thought.

And I’m still very doubtful of him being able to reduce every single piece of someone to nothing but a fine layer of blood when he has never shown anything comparable, let alone to a dozen people spread out, all at once, kilometres away, off the bat.

He doesn't need to reduce them to such. When I say "paste" it can mean anything from fragmentation so profound that it's nigh-impossible to regenerate to doing what you said. Regardless, if you think that doesn't work either then he can also just keep force pushing them away from the battlefield to a degree their interferences in the battle are next to none.

Blitzing someone through a pocket dimension from kilometres away? Where every structure can be shifted as they please? And all they need to do is strum a chord?

He just needs to take hold of her mind and it's over. Or better, can do so to virtually demon present and have them try to kill Muzan - like when he commanded that horde to drag its leader to lava or when he made that modified whale ship thing go into "the Sun".

Invariably, that'll lead either to the demons being incapacitated or just killed by Muzan as to not be a liability.

And c’mon, Vader is not some master assassin that can just kill anyone at any time by thought regardless of distance or line of sight.
People escaping from Darth Vader is like the most common trope in the series. He ain’t instantly pasting someone down to nothing but blood through all of this:

If he doesn't, then I can see him manipulating her mind just fine.


Anyways, this is my final stance for now. Will perhaps reconsider while the thread keeps moving.

 

[DemonicDude]

Damm big money match going on here.

 

[Doggo]

Seriously, what's stopping Vader from eventually mind-haxing Muzan and telling him to sun-bathe or something?

 

[Doggo]

Not nearly as much of a meaty power gap between Vader and regular people who even when he is tossing around in a rage never get close to smeared. AP isn’t what matters here, it is mechanism of injury - Muzan gets hack and slashed all the time, even his head pasted, but unless you can actually smear all of him at once it is basically irrelevant.

That's against normal fodder. I doubt Star Wars writers are gonna portay him turning people to paste like when he usually just tosses them around or slices them.

Again, this is a 27x power gap. A single meaty force wave is gonna vaporize Muzan

 

[Robo432343]

Vader FRA

 

[Doggo]

Vader FRA too

 

[Xavis10]

Seriously, what's stopping Vader from eventually mind-haxing Muzan and telling him to sub-bathe or something?

Nothing. He has control over his demons (biological), but he himself has no shown resistance to mind hax.

 

[Ruby_R_Dracula]

leading towards Darth Daddy fra for now

 

[Doggo]

leading towards Darth Daddy fra for now

Bu-but how about Grievous Chan?!?!??

 

[Doggo]

I also want to point out that Vader can just spam Force Barrier especially with precog, which severely hampers Muzan's chances of somehow piercing armor thats 27x higher than his AP

 

[Ruby_R_Dracula]

Bu-but how about Grievous Chan?!?!??

Grievous is my child

 

[Doggo]

Grievous is my child

can't believe bro birthed a clanker

 

[Ruby_R_Dracula]

can't believe bro birthed a clanker

eat pant

 

[Phsccarvalho]

Seriously, what's stopping Vader from eventually mind-haxing Muzan and telling him to sun-bathe or something?

Muzan going around the world to do that.

Probably out of character for Vader, but he could also telekinetically grab Muzan and walk with him to the other side of the world where the sun will be shining.

 

[Doggo]

eat pant

What does this even mean

Muzan going around the world to do that.

Probably out of character for Vader, but he could also telekinetically grab Muzan and walk with him to the other side of the world where the sun will be shining.

Given he literally mind-haxxed that whale into swimming on a star, Vader eventually getting fed up with this slippery bastard and telling him KYS seems on brand to his character.

 

[Xavis10]

Given he literally mind-haxxed that whale into swimming on a star, Vader eventually getting fed up with this slippery bastard and telling him KYS seems on brand to his character.

Don't forget mind controlling a horde to drag its leader to the lava and then kill themselves (feats section in his profile). Did so right away too, IIRC.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

Well, I'm counting the votes. I only counted the explicit ones, like "I lean towards X, I think X wins, X FRA" because I'm not good at deducing if the person is voting or counting the advantages of X character.

If I missed someone, please indicate their votes.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

Vader also controls monsters.
He controls one monster to attack another, and another to help him (then he killed the monster).

 

[Ruby_R_Dracula]

What does this even mean

 

[Pyro9278]

Vader FRA

 

[Epyriel]

That's against normal fodder. I doubt Star Wars writers are gonna portay him turning people to paste like when he usually just tosses them around or slices them.

Again, this is a 27x power gap. A single meaty force wave is gonna vaporize Muzan

Against normal fodder where he has a ~4,000,000,000,000,000x power gap and never reduces them to paste, let alone vaporizes them, no matter the distance or how enraged he is.

You are writing fanfiction at this point.

 

[Epyriel]

I also want to point out that Vader can just spam Force Barrier especially with precog, which severely hampers Muzan's chances of somehow piercing armor thats 27x higher than his AP

Given he literally mind-haxxed that whale into swimming on a star, Vader eventually getting fed up with this slippery bastard and telling him KYS seems on brand to his character.

How is any of this going to happen before Vader gets sleep-stunlocked and turned into a fish or soul killed, or simply trapped in a pocket dimension?

Which requires mere line of sight and strumming a chord respectively?

 

[Xavis10]

Well, I'm counting the votes. I only counted the explicit ones, like "I lean towards X, I think X wins, X FRA" because I'm not good at deducing if the person is voting or counting the advantages of X character.

If I missed someone, please indicate their votes.

When does the matchup end?

 

[Nonynho]

Voting Vader FRA

 

[Epyriel]

When does the matchup end?

Yo Xavis, did your Discord get hacked? Cause it is currently sending me a gift-code scam in DMs.

 

[Xavis10]

Yo Xavis, did your Discord get hacked? Cause it is currently sending me a gift-code scam in DMs.

Thanks for asking me, if it wasn't this reply I wouldn't even have noticed

But yeah, someone entered it. Apparently it's widespread. Already got it back and increased security.

Thanks again

 

[Arkansalter2]

Vader FRA.

 

[Doggo]

sleep-stunlocked

Said sleep hax seems to be a form of mind hax which.....even padawans resist.

turned into a fish

Needs to touch Vader. Good luck dealing with Vader's skill, force barriers, precog, and force pushes.

simply trapped in a pocket dimension?

Planetary with Force powers (Capable of Force Choking someone in orbit around a planet while he's on the surface). Galactic and Interdimensional with Force sense

The fact that he can just sense where Nakime is in the castle with his force sense and then simply target her with TK or mind hax, even if she is far away from him. His range is deadass too much here.

 

[Jackof_noTrades068]

Yep, based on what Doggo just said + prior arguments
Vader FRA

 

[Epyriel]

Said sleep hax seems to be a form of mind hax which.....even padawans resist.

They have zero resistance to sleep manipulation.

Needs to touch Vader. Good luck dealing with Vader's skill, force barriers, precog, and force pushes.

Sleep stun-lock + two different forms of teleportation + getting jumped by a dozen characters spamming BDAs, including some of which are significantly faster than him.

Planetary with Force powers (Capable of Force Choking someone in orbit around a planet while he's on the surface). Galactic and Interdimensional with Force sense

The fact that he can just sense where Nakime is in the castle with his force sense and then simply target her with TK or mind hax, even if she is far away from him. His range is deadass too much here.

And c’mon, Vader is not some master assassin that can just kill anyone at any time by thought regardless of distance or line of sight. People escaping from Darth Vader is like the most common trope in the series. He ain’t instantly pasting someone down to nothing but blood through all of this:

 

[Phsccarvalho]

I think this is grace

 

[Xavis10]

I think this is grace

Will you apply the changes?

 

[Phsccarvalho]

Will you apply the changes?

I think it's only tomorrow.

The seventh vote was cast today, so I think it's only tomorrow because of the 24-hour thing.

 

[Kellex]

I think it's only tomorrow.

The seventh vote was cast today, so I think it's only tomorrow because of the 24-hour thing.

Nah, the 7th vote was from Nonynho which has been more than 24 hours already.