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VS


Rules:
  • SBA (Time: 8 PM)


Votes
Darth Vader: (10) @MrSpockVulcan, @Xavis10, @Robo432343, @Doggo, @Ruby_R_Dracula, @Pyro9278, @Nonynho, @Arkansalter2, @Jackof_noTrades068, @LegendariumOfLies, @EnderLord8

Muzan: (1) @Epyriel

Incon:
 
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I asked @Epyriel if the fight was a good idea, and he said yes, so... I'm doing it. If it doesn't work out, it's not my fault. I'm out of the house with just my phone doing other things, so I won't be home for many hours to discuss it (I'm not going to discuss it on my phone, it sucks), but it'll be 1 AM anyway, so I won't even discuss it, I'll go to sleep or play Darksiders.
 
I asked @Epyriel if the fight was a good idea, and he said yes, so... I'm doing it. If it doesn't work out, it's not my fault.
Thrown under the bus 😂

Anyways, Vader’s got a big AP advantage and Muzan’s got a big speed advantage:
  • 79.4 Megatons vs >2.93 Megatons (27x difference, minus ~2 one-shot gaps from Muzan’s upscaling)
  • 0.150c vs >>0.258c (1.72x difference, plus ~3 blitz gaps from Muzan’s upscaling)
Although Vader’s got precog to help counter the speed gap.

Vader’s win-con would basically just be stalling and/or pasting Muzan repeatedly until sunrise. Force Stasis can help with that, although he’ll need to hold it for a very long time.

While Muzan’s win-con would be wearing him down enough until he pierces Vader’s suit in order to get at his skin in order to inject his blood to win via bio-decon or blood corruption.

Considering Muzan’s got roughly 11 hours until sunrise and the better stamina, I’m tentatively leaning in his favour.
 
Class M TK vs Class K, Vader can't just hold Muzan in place with TK?
Possibly, although Muzan is rather slippery when un-nerfed thanks to freeform shapeshifting and the ability to split and duplicate himself. He would also need to hold him for a rather long time.
 

VS


Rules:
  • SBA (Time: 8 PM)
Also I just remembered Muzan technically gets all his controlled demons by default, so might want to restrict that.

Since as is, Enmu could just sleep stun-lock Vader, allowing Gyokko to fish-touch or Nakime to BFR him.
 
Unless I'm getting this wrong, Muzan has High-Mid regen, right?
High-Mid: The ability to regenerate from being blown/cut to pieces, brain included, or from a small piece of the user's body, such as a finger, or the heart.
Vader has a LS advantage with his TK, and a 27x AP advantage. What stops him from pasting Muzan into a pool of blood instantly and killing him?
 
Unless I'm getting this wrong, Muzan has High-Mid regen, right?


Vader has a LS advantage with his TK, and a 27x AP advantage. What stops him from pasting Muzan into a pool of blood instantly and killing him?
Issue is that he would need to completely paste Muzan for this to work, since he can regen from only tiny scraps of flesh.

Unless he’s shown something in some new Canon comic that I’ve missed, I don’t think his TK has ever shown to be quite so complete (even on normal dudes) for this to work.

Especially since Muzan likes to make liberal use of shapeshifting in battle to produce giant flesh pillars even when he can’t split himself.
 
Issue is that he would need to completely paste Muzan for this to work, since he can regen from only tiny scraps of flesh.

Unless he’s shown something in some new Canon comic that I’ve missed, I don’t think his TK has ever shown to be quite so complete (even on normal dudes) for this to work.

Especially since Muzan likes to make liberal use of shapeshifting in battle to produce giant flesh pillars even when he can’t split himself.
To be fair, has Vader ever tried to paste someone into a bloody stain, and when he did, did he have a 27x advantage in strength over them? It's not like any of Muzan's body has the resilience to withstand that sort of pressure after all (Both in LS and AP).
 
To be fair, has Vader ever tried to paste someone into a bloody stain, and when he did, did he have a 27x advantage in strength over them? It's not like any of Muzan's body has the resilience to withstand that sort of pressure after all (Both in LS and AP).
Nah usually just neck snaps people.

And yeah Muzan is made of tissue paper but he likes to spread out and regens very fast.

Without foreknowledge, I think it is doubtful that Vader would completely reduce every single part of his body to a bloody smear with his first dedicated attack (even if his telekinesis can indeed do that), which means in-character Muzan would subsequently resort to splitting into over a thousand pieces to spread out, which isn’t something someone even an entire perception blitz gap above him could prevent.
 
Nah usually just neck snaps people.

And yeah Muzan is made of tissue paper but he likes to spread out and regens very fast.

Without foreknowledge, I think it is doubtful that Vader would completely reduce every single part of his body to a bloody smear with his first dedicated attack (even if his telekinesis can indeed do that), which means in-character Muzan would subsequently resort to splitting into over a thousand pieces to spread out, which isn’t something someone even an entire perception blitz gap above him could prevent.
Well prolly not start off with it. But when he sees nothing else working? Prolly just gonna paste him.

What's the AoE of Vader's TK? He could unironically just Force grab every piece of him simultaneously if it has a big enough range.
 
Well prolly not start off with it. But when he sees nothing else working? Prolly just gonna paste him.

What's the AoE of Vader's TK? He could unironically just Force grab every piece of him simultaneously if it has a big enough range.
His range for grabbing things individually is very generous, although I don’t remember any particularly impressive AoE feats from Canon.

@Phsccarvalho might know of something when he comes back, he’s more knowledgeable on Canon. My knowledge is more Legends-based.
 
A hundred isn't bad. I imagine he could grab hundreds by sweeping and ball them all together with his TK if he needed to get them all into one spot.
 
I fail to see why a single force push doesn't immediately vaporize Muzan's body here.
 
Thrown under the bus 😂

Anyways, Vader’s got a big AP advantage and Muzan’s got a big speed advantage:
  • 79.4 Megatons vs >2.93 Megatons (27x difference, minus ~2 one-shot gaps from Muzan’s upscaling)
  • 0.150c vs >>0.258c (1.72x difference, plus ~3 blitz gaps from Muzan’s upscaling)
Although Vader’s got precog to help counter the speed gap.

Vader’s win-con would basically just be stalling and/or pasting Muzan repeatedly until sunrise. Force Stasis can help with that, although he’ll need to hold it for a very long time.

While Muzan’s win-con would be wearing him down enough until he pierces Vader’s suit in order to get at his skin in order to inject his blood to win via bio-decon or blood corruption.

Considering Muzan’s got roughly 11 hours until sunrise and the better stamina, I’m tentatively leaning in his favour.
I know the AP gap is 7x, but I haven't found anything about Speed. But I doubt a gap smaller than 2x would be a speed blitz. Regarding scaling, Vader also has a very large one. The relativistic feat belongs to CW Obi-Wan. And well ---> CW Obi-Wan < Anakin (Episode 3) < Vader (Post Mustafar) < Vader (LotS) < Vader (OWK) < Vader (Rebels) < Vader (ANH) < Vader (ROJ). And I'm only talking about things that are stated like "got stronger/is in his prime," because Vader's power increases over time.

Vader also has some speed boosters, some slow-motion boosters for perception (which makes a difference in this case since TK is based on thought).
v2NNS5l.png
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In addition to the obvious, things like anger, fear, pain, and negative feelings in general increase Vader's power.

If it really takes too long, Vader can use a Mind Probe to search Muzan's mind and memories to find information on how to defeat him.

Possibly, although Muzan is rather slippery when un-nerfed thanks to freeform shapeshifting and the ability to split and duplicate himself. He would also need to hold him for a rather long time.
I don't know if it's possible to dodge a Force Choke, because, well, the Force is everywhere.

Also I just remembered Muzan technically gets all his controlled demons by default, so might want to restrict that.

Since as is, Enmu could just sleep stun-lock Vader, allowing Gyokko to fish-touch or Nakime to BFR him.
I mean, I didn't think it made much of a difference because Vader can easily TK them all since he's already demonstrated telekinetic control over many individual objects. Vader could even telekinetically control them to attack Muzan or use Mind Trick to attack Muzan as well.
7FVFeTk.jpeg
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mWph9B1.jpeg


Issue is that he would need to completely paste Muzan for this to work, since he can regen from only tiny scraps of flesh.

Unless he’s shown something in some new Canon comic that I’ve missed, I don’t think his TK has ever shown to be quite so complete (even on normal dudes) for this to work.

Especially since Muzan likes to make liberal use of shapeshifting in battle to produce giant flesh pillars even when he can’t split himself.
To be fair, has Vader ever tried to paste someone into a bloody stain, and when he did, did he have a 27x advantage in strength over them? It's not like any of Muzan's body has the resilience to withstand that sort of pressure after all (Both in LS and AP).
I mean, he never turned anyone into a paste as far as I know. I mean, I guess it was never necessary, since if someone is weak enough to die from a Force Choke, the bare minimum is enough, you know?

But he did do this below.
8998987-rco025_1687974977.jpg

Vader's energy blasts/Tk are also capable of reducing beings to pieces.
Vader extended a gloved hand and loosed a blast of power that blew apart two of the lyleks rushing toward him, showering those behind with gore and chunks of carapace.
- Lords of the Sith, Chapter Sixteen, Page 366
Could vader just atomize him with the force?
Although TK is also a matter of hash, I don't know if we can exaggerate to that extent.
 
I fail to see why a single force push doesn't immediately vaporize Muzan's body here.
When has Vader ever completely vaporized anyone with a Force push? Even regular people?

I know the AP gap is 7x, but I haven't found anything about Speed. But I doubt a gap smaller than 2x would be a speed blitz. Regarding scaling, Vader also has a very large one. The relativistic feat belongs to CW Obi-Wan. And well ---> CW Obi-Wan < Anakin (Episode 3) < Vader (Post Mustafar) < Vader (LotS) < Vader (OWK) < Vader (Rebels) < Vader (ANH) < Vader (ROJ). And I'm only talking about things that are stated like "got stronger/is in his prime," because Vader's power increases over time.
Yeah I just didn’t mention Vader’s upscaling since the speed gaps between stronger and weaker characters in SW is less dramatic.

I don't know if it's possible to dodge a Force Choke, because, well, the Force is everywhere.
Probably un-dodgeable as long as Vader can visualize it (which I’m willing to grant he can since his perception speed is greater than his combat speed by a noticeable margin) it just isn’t particularly useful against Muzan.

I mean, I didn't think it made much of a difference because Vader can easily TK them all since he's already demonstrated telekinetic control over many individual objects. Vader could even telekinetically control them to attack Muzan or use Mind Trick to attack Muzan as well.
7FVFeTk.jpeg
jxWsaKe.jpeg
Z9iPzRv.jpeg
mWph9B1.jpeg
If we are including all of Muzan’s demons it would definitely make a difference since despite their far weaker stats a lot of them provide very key advantages through their blood demon arts.

For example as soon as Vader looks in Enmu’s direction he is instantly getting put to sleep since his sleep-manipulation is sight-based and can be used as a continuous stunlock.

Gyokko also has a dura-neg fish touch which would pretty much just immediately end the battle if it lands (which if Vader is asleep he can’t really do anything about).

Nakime provides the Infinity Castle which can immediately be used to BFR Vader into a pocket dimension he has no real way of escaping.

I mean, he never turned anyone into a paste as far as I know. I mean, I guess it was never necessary, since if someone is weak enough to die from a Force Choke, the bare minimum is enough, you know?

But he did do this below.
8998987-rco025_1687974977.jpg

Vader's energy blasts/Tk are also capable of reducing beings to pieces.

Although TK is also a matter of hash, I don't know if we can exaggerate to that extent.
While impressive, this is still regular fragmentation which Muzan can definitely regenerate from.
 
While impressive, this is still regular fragmentation which Muzan can definitely regenerate from.
Tbf, that wall is metal. It's not flesh and blood, it can't reduce the wall to paste unless the Force had heat. Which it doesn't. The most he'd be able to reduce it to is dust particles. Which atp is less than blood. Really all that should be needed to reduce someone to a blood puddle is enough AP. It's not like vaporization where heat is also required or anything.
 
Tbf, that wall is metal. It's not flesh and blood, it can't reduce the wall to paste unless the Force had heat. Which it doesn't. The most he'd be able to reduce it to is dust particles. Which atp is less than blood. Really all that should be needed to reduce someone to a blood puddle is enough AP. It's not like vaporization where heat is also required or anything.
If he never destroys structures or enemies to qualify for even violent fragmentation, why should we expect his TK to completely smear someone to bypass regeneration?
 
If he never destroys structures or enemies to qualify for even violent fragmentation, why should we expect his TK to completely smear someone to bypass regeneration?
His force has no heat, it couldn't reduce structures to a paste even if he wanted to. He would need to liquefy it to do that. Unless it was a structure with a liquid in it the same way a person is made of solids (Skin, muscle, bones) and liquid (Blood).

That said, when did he ever have a reason to do so in canon? Did he ever need to paste someone at any point? Typically reducing the thing to rubble is enough, because it's not like anyone in Star Wars can regenerate from small body parts like fingers. If he has the precision to apply the force to small shards/fragments of glass, I have no doubt he could apply it to small remaining body parts to crush them and leave only blood.
 
His force has no heat, it couldn't reduce structures to a paste even if he wanted to. He would need to liquefy it to do that. Unless it was a structure with a liquid in it the same way a person is made of solids (Skin, muscle, bones) and liquid (Blood).

That said, when did he ever have a reason to do so in canon? Did he ever need to paste someone at any point? Typically reducing the thing to rubble is enough, because it's not like anyone in Star Wars can regenerate from small body parts like fingers. If he has the precision to apply the force to small shards/fragments of glass, I have no doubt he could apply it to small remaining body parts to crush them and leave only blood.
He throws people around all the time and never comes close to pasting people.

Palpatine can vaporize people with his lightning, but Vader has just never shown anything similar.
 
He throws people around all the time and never comes close to pasting people.
Well why would he need to paste random nobodies when a simple force choke or neck snap, etc will do just fine?

I don't think you need to be shown to be able to reduce something down to a liquid to reduce a person to blood. You just need the AoE and AP to do so. Vader has both, and can target something as small as glass shards/particles. Reducing someone who keeps regenerating from every one of his attacks to a paste makes sense and should logically be feasible.
 
Reducing Muzan to a pool of blood (or attempting to) is the quick option, yet Vader can still win by simply avoiding anything Muzan does and counterattacking by violently compressing him with the Force. With the Perception, LS, and AP advantages, Vader literally only needs to keep Muzan occupied until daybreak.
 
I can answer that right now since it's simple. Check Vader's profile and go to Dammaku. He can telekinetically control maybe a hundred shards of glass.
a hundred isn't bad, but Muzan can split his body into 1800 minuscule pieces of flesh, and can regenerate from (presumably) any one of them. considering his regeneration was hindered at the time from the heat of Yoriichi's sword, and the injuries to his vital organs, I'd argue he can split himself into tinier or more numerous pieces if he starts off in a healthy state. but this doesn't seem to be Vader's opening move, so I'd argue Muzan would never let it come to this.

A hundred isn't bad. I imagine he could grab hundreds by sweeping and ball them all together with his TK if he needed to get them all into one spot.
those pieces of flesh also explode in every direction with high enough speeds to outpace someone who can blatantly statue Muzan. does Vader have the reflexes or any sort of speed amp to help him react to that? because if not, Muzan would just instantly slip away from his grasp and either send him flying into the IC or instantly incapacitate him with seizure-inducing shockwaves.
 
If we are including all of Muzan’s demons it would definitely make a difference since despite their far weaker stats a lot of them provide very key advantages through their blood demon arts.

For example as soon as Vader looks in Enmu’s direction he is instantly getting put to sleep since his sleep-manipulation is sight-based and can be used as a continuous stunlock.

Gyokko also has a dura-neg fish touch which would pretty much just immediately end the battle if it lands (which if Vader is asleep he can’t really do anything about).

Nakime provides the Infinity Castle which can immediately be used to BFR Vader into a pocket dimension he has no real way of escaping.
Well, I don't know if that's something I can restrict.

But if the people in the thread think it's better for me to do it if I have the possibility, okay.

I'll wait to see how the conversation unfolds.
a hundred isn't bad, but Muzan can split his body into 1800 minuscule pieces of flesh, and can regenerate from (presumably) any one of them. considering his regeneration was hindered at the time from the heat of Yoriichi's sword, and the injuries to his vital organs, I'd argue he can split himself into tinier or more numerous pieces if he starts off in a healthy state. but this doesn't seem to be Vader's opening move, so I'd argue Muzan would never let it come to this.
As I said, one hundred is a downplay, because there are many shards of glass, some very small.

Force Choke is one of Vader's initial moves.

those pieces of flesh also explode in every direction with high enough speeds to outpace someone who can blatantly statue Muzan. does Vader have the reflexes or any sort of speed amp to help him react to that? because if not, Muzan would just instantly slip away from his grasp and either send him flying into the IC or instantly incapacitate him with seizure-inducing shockwaves.
Yes, he has many things he can help with.
 
As I said, one hundred is a downplay, because there are many shards of glass, some very small.
sure, but even if we say he can grab a hold of 1000 flesh chunks at a time, there's still at least 800 more that would slip away.

Force Choke is one of Vader's initial moves.
choking itself is useless. there's a big jump from that and completely hydraulic pressing someone into a fine paste.

Yes, he has many things he can help with.
interesting. i'm not sure if even that's enough to help him react to an explosion that should normally be statue-ing him, but even if it is, i still doubt he would be fast enough to crush all of the flesh chunks into a ball like Laser suggested. especially if Muzan decides to summon the other demons or toss Vader into the infinity castle, because at that point Vader would have to deal with annoying AoE attacks from every direction, and the fact Muzan can freely teleport himself out of his grip.
 
After looking at the clip, I actually think with how fine some of the particles of glass were he could be moving thousands of "shards" of glass, POSSIBLY tens of thousands, but I don't want to be rash cuz it's late and I'm tired so I could be off. But tbh, it just seems like Vader can lift any amount of things around him regardless of number so long as the total mass of what he's lifting doesn't exceed his LS. I don't think realistically if he can lift anything within a large radius of himself that we should be worrying about the exact count if he's shown to be able to move everything around him as if they're all in a stasis field. Cuz atp it just seems like it's moreso an AoE and LS thing.
 
When has Vader ever completely vaporized anyone with a Force push? Even regular people?
Based on the fact that he has a massive AP advantage and given we've seen weaker Jedi like Cal Kestis bust solid structures with force push, I fail to see why Vader won't be able to destroy Muzan with one.

Like that's a meaty power gap. Muzan would literally turn to paste if he were hit with a telekinetic wave with Vader's power.
 
vote for Vader, he only needs to crush the guy with a wave of his hand, and considering he has premonition, that will be quick.
 
Based on the fact that he has a massive AP advantage and given we've seen weaker Jedi like Cal Kestis bust solid structures with force push, I fail to see why Vader won't be able to destroy Muzan with one.

Like that's a meaty power gap. Muzan would literally turn to paste if he were hit with a telekinetic wave with Vader's power.
Not nearly as much of a meaty power gap between Vader and regular people who even when he is tossing around in a rage never get close to smeared. AP isn’t what matters here, it is mechanism of injury - Muzan gets hack and slashed all the time, even his head pasted, but unless you can actually smear all of him at once it is basically irrelevant.

vote for Vader, he only needs to crush the guy with a wave of his hand, and considering he has premonition, that will be quick.
As it stands I don’t see how Vader doesn’t just immediately get stunlocked by Enmu. Or BFRed by Nakime or Muzan.
 
Vader handily. I don't think the speed difference is that abysmal, especially considering the amount of gaps between TCW Obi-Wan and prime Vader - which I assume is the iteration being used.

If we grant Muzan usage of all his demons, then the fight is a high diff in Vader's favour. First off, his precognition allows him to sense something off about Enmu, making him the first one to die. All the other lower moons get immediately one-shot, they're comically beneath him.

From the Upper Moons, only Kokushibo matters, and maybe Akaza to some extent. Daki, Kaigaku and Gyutaro aren't touching him, ever. Gyokko isn't either, but in the off chance he does get a hit in, it's worth noting his transmutative ability is very slow acting, the hit he landed on Muichiro only transformed a small section of the anterior portion on Mui's uniform. Hantengu is trickier, but extrasensory perceptions + higher speed allows him to deal with it in a minute or so.

Dōma, despite being stronger than Akaza, is too playful and unserious, he's dying.
Akaza has a habit of retracting himself, often to perilous extent (I mean, Rengoku with a near death amp managed to restrain Akaza, forcing the latter to cut off his arm). But Akaza has some degree of outright resistance to decapitation, so he could be trickier at first. Not too much of a hindrance though, IIRC a big part of what made Sun Breeding and Red Blade so efficient is the temperature, and if that's the case then it should come as no surprise how handy a lightsaber here is.

Kokushibo is just a serious stronger Akaza with a sword, and his monster form could be an issue, but a lightsaber to the neck and using the force to restrain him is doing the trick.

Muzan is the only real hard combatant here, but he too gets restrained (after a long fight), decapitated and cut into other pieces. If he explodes, Vader uses the force to manhandle the flesh pieces and crush them to paste or just cut them. But if Muzan is lucky, he'll manage a cut through Vader's armour and his blood will damage him over time. I have no reason to think it's a oneshot though, if the slayers can resist it for sometime while weakened, then so can Vader.

If Muzan doesn't use his demons, it's a mid diff for Vader (8/10), if he does it's a high diff (6/10)

TL;DR - Precognition and TK are serious wincons for Vader. Enmu dies in one second, the other Lower moons in two or three seconds. Uppers 6 to 4 die in a minute, Doma lasts ten, Akaza lasts fifteen, Kokushibo lasts an hour and some minutes and Muzan and Vader fight either until sunrise or until Vader dices and pastes him. Or Muzan lands a hit and deconstructs Vader.

Addendum 1: This matchup may become irrelevant in the future provided there are incoming upgrades for Vader's AP due to some HR stuff.

Addendum 2: forgot to address Nakime, but if Muzan uses her then it'd be similar to if Yoriichi got into the IC, Vader gets to Muzan before Nakime has time to change the castle. If Vader finds Nakime first, he kills her (she's not physically impressive at all) and the IC collapses. Either both Vader and Muzan manage to escape or they both die in whatever void is left and it's a stalemate by definition lol.
 
Vader handily. I don't think the speed difference is that abysmal, especially considering the amount of gaps between TCW Obi-Wan and prime Vader - which I assume is the iteration being used.

If we grant Muzan usage of all his demons, then the fight is a high diff in Vader's favour. First off, his precognition allows him to sense something off about Enmu, making him the first one to die. All the other lower moons get immediately one-shot, they're comically beneath him.

From the Upper Moons, only Kokushibo matters, and maybe Akaza to some extent. Daki, Kaigaku and Gyutaro aren't touching him, ever. Gyokko isn't either, but in the off chance he does get a hit in, it's worth noting his transmutative ability is very slow acting, the hit he landed on Muichiro only transformed a small section of the anterior portion on Mui's uniform. Hantengu is trickier, but extrasensory perceptions + higher speed allows him to deal with it in a minute or so.

Dōma, despite being stronger than Akaza, is too playful and unserious, he's dying.
Akaza has a habit of retracting himself, often to perilous extent (I mean, Rengoku with a near death amp managed to restrain Akaza, forcing the latter to cut off his arm). But Akaza has some degree of outright resistance to decapitation, so he could be trickier at first. Not too much of a hindrance though, IIRC a big part of what made Sun Breeding and Red Blade so efficient is the temperature, and if that's the case then it should come as no surprise how handy a lightsaber here is.

Kokushibo is just a serious stronger Akaza with a sword, and his monster form could be an issue, but a lightsaber to the neck and using the force to restrain him is doing the trick.

Muzan is the only real hard combatant here, but he too gets restrained (after a long fight), decapitated and cut into other pieces. If he explodes, Vader uses the force to manhandle the flesh pieces and crush them to paste or just cut them. But if Muzan is lucky, he'll manage a cut through Vader's armour and his blood will damage him over time. I have no reason to think it's a oneshot though, if the slayers can resist it for sometime while weakened, then so can Vader.

If Muzan doesn't use his demons, it's a mid diff for Vader (8/10), if he does it's a high diff (6/10)

TL;DR - Precognition and TK are serious wincons for Vader. Enmu dies in one second, the other Lower moons in two or three seconds. Uppers 6 to 4 die in a minute, Doma lasts ten, Akaza lasts fifteen, Kokushibo lasts an hour and some minutes and Muzan and Vader fight either until sunrise or until Vader dices and pastes him. Or Muzan lands a hit and deconstructs Vader.

Addendum 1: This matchup may become irrelevant in the future provided there are incoming upgrades for Vader's AP due to some HR stuff.

Addendum 2: forgot to address Nakime, but if Muzan uses her then it'd be similar to if Yoriichi got into the IC, Vader gets to Muzan before Nakime has time to change the castle. If Vader finds Nakime first, he kills her (she's not physically impressive at all) and the IC collapses. Either both Vader and Muzan manage to escape or they both die in whatever void is left and it's a stalemate by definition lol.
Speed difference definitely is great, you’d be hard pressed to argue Vader could outright perception blitz TCW Kenobi, let alone over 3 times over.

I think the notion that Vader will successfully identify, target, and paste Enmu immediately from a large distance (SBA is 4 kilometres) before ever vaguely glancing in his direction to be rather dubious. Especially with all the other guys hanging around.

Also he is definitely not cornering Nakime in the Infinity Castle. She can pretty easily keep him dozens of kilometres away at all times, more than long enough to keep him trapped for a win via BFR.
 
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Speed difference definitely is great, you’d be far pressed to argue Vader could outright perception blitz TCW Kenobi, let alone over 3 times over.

I don't believe it's enough to be that big of an issue. ~2x Vader's speed (what Muzan currently scales to, "likely higher") isn't enough to "blitz" him, especially with precognition.
I think the notion that Vader will successfully identify, target, and paste Enmu immediately from a large distance (SBA is 4 kilometres) before ever vaguely glancing in his direction to be rather dubious. Especially with all the other guys hanging around.

In that case, he doesn't need to do so and simply TKs him. Again, precog and force sense help immensely.
Also he is definitely not cornering Nakime in the Infinity Castle. She can pretty easily keep him dozens of kilometres away at all times, more than long enough to keep him trapped for a win via BFR.

Mitsuri and Obanai found her rather easily, I don't see why Vader wouldn't, especially with enhanced and extrasensory senses.
 
I don't believe it's enough to be that big of an issue. ~2x Vader's speed (what Muzan currently scales to, "likely higher") isn't enough to "blitz" him, especially with precognition.
It definitely is, since the ~2x value that Muzan upscales from is for Marked Sanemi who is drastically slower than TW Gyomei who got perception blitzed by Monster Kokushibo despite Gyomei also having precognition, who is in turn drastically slower than Muzan.

In that case, he doesn't need to do so and simply TKs him. Again, precog and force sense help immensely.
Pasting someone from 4 km away is already something Vader has never shown the capability for, let alone being able to immediately clock that he needs to do so without ever catching a glimpse of Enmu’s eyes. This seems like a stretch.

Mitsuri and Obanai found her rather easily, I don't see why Vader wouldn't, especially with enhanced and extrasensory senses.
With the advantage of an extrasensory BDA helping out, while Nakime was foiling hundreds of other people simultaneously, and yet she still toyed with them. More a matter of the upper moons being instructed to kill or stall the Hashira while Muzan broke down the drugs rather than Nakime being unable to escape - she can literally teleport demons across the entire Infinity Castle with merely a strum of a cord.

Especially with Muzan being able to actively control the IC through her, there isn’t realistically any way for Vader to readh them unless they let him.
 
Pasting someone from 4 km away is already something Vader has never shown the capability for, let alone being able to immediately clock that he needs to do so without ever catching a glimpse of Enmu’s eyes. This seems like a stretch.
He has used telekinesis over enormous distances. That's why he has planetary control via telekinesis. Vader even strangled a guy on a spaceship in outer space while on the surface of a planet without even making visual contact with something like a hologram (this is listed in the feats section of Darth Vader's profile). The only thing Vader needs is to sense the person.
 
He has used telekinesis over enormous distances. That's why he has planetary control via telekinesis. Vader even strangled a guy on a spaceship in outer space while on the surface of a planet without even making visual contact with something like a hologram (this is listed in the feats section of Darth Vader's profile). The only thing Vader needs is to sense the person.
Yeah he’s got the range (that’s why SBA maxes out the range to 4km) issue is immediately clocking which of the dozen demons 4km away he needs to immediately paste and can’t look at (if he can actually completely paste someone at all with TK).
 
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It definitely is, since the ~2x value that Muzan upscales from is for Marked Sanemi who is drastically slower than TW Gyomei who got perception blitzed by Monster Kokushibo despite Gyomei also having precognition, who is in turn drastically slower than Muzan.

All of those gaps are hypothetical, there is no one way to ascertain a concrete speed value for either, so one must stick with what is given, and it remains that ~2x isn't enough. If we do want to make an estimate, then Obi-Wan's feat of blocking a laser was done pretty casually and without struggle, which leads me to believe a serious Obi-Wan would be faster, and by chainscaling so would Vader - by a lot.

Anyways, this is my final stance on the matter, unless I'm presented with something that does indeed indicate a clear overwhelming speed superiority, then that's that.
Pasting someone from 4 km away is already something Vader has never shown the capability for, let alone being able to immediately clock that he needs to do so without ever catching a glimpse of Enmu’s eyes. This seems like a stretch.

He has indeed TKed someone from far away, when he killed Ozzel. Don't see why he wouldn't clock in what he needs to do when he has the abilities for such, nor why would seeing Enmu be a necessity.
With the advantage of an extrasensory BDA helping out, while Nakime was foiling hundreds of other people simultaneously, and yet she still toyed with them. More a matter of the upper moons being instructed to kill or stall the Hashira while Muzan broke down the drugs rather than Nakime being unable to escape - she can literally teleport demons across the entire Infinity Castle with merely a strum of a cord.

So with the same ability Vader has to a greater extent. He finds her and incapacitates or kills her, I don't see a way that doesn't happen.
Especially with Muzan being able to actively control the IC through her, there isn’t realistically any way for Vader to readh them unless they let him.

When did he control the Castle? I don't recall this.
 
Yeah he’s got the range (that’s why SBA maxes out the range to 4km) issue is immediately clocking which of the dozen demons 4km away he needs to immediately paste and can’t look at (if he can actually complete paste someone at all with TK).
But don't the demons need to be summoned first? Is Muzan's first move in a fight to summon all the moons to help him right from the start?

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With all this discussion, I'm thinking that Pochita vs. Muzan ended way too quickly.
 
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