Four Shades Boundary/Conceptual Manipulation

[MSahla]

Introduction
So recently, the Four Shades' Conceptual Manipulation just got nuked from this thread. The reasoning at that time were so bad, so i'll try to bring that up again with a better reasoning.

But, we must understand the lore of Genshin Impact chronologically first.

Genshin Impact Lore —
Heavenly Principles, Four Shades, and Boundary Manipulation​

Old World (Before the Arrival of the Heavenly Principles)

Spoiler: Old World

In Genshin Impact’s lore and world-building, the Heavenly Principles, also known as the Primordial One, created four “Shades” of itself. Each Shade is associated with a fundamental cosmic principles:

• Life — Ruler of Life, Naberius
• Death — Ruler of Death, Ronova
• Time — Ruler of Time, Istaroth
• Space — Ruler of Space, Asmoday

These four entities are responsible for governing the metaphysical structure of the world.

The lore strongly implies that before the rule of the Heavenly Principles, the world did not have clearly defined cosmic laws or boundaries governing existence. This suggests that the Heavenly Principles and the Four Shades played a role in establishing the fundamental structure of reality in Teyvat.

Several statements support the idea that the boundaries of existence were not yet defined during the Old World:

• Nicole states that during the era of the Old World, there was no boundary between Life and Death.
• In the Moonlit Offering's Opulent Dream artifact description, it is said that during the time when the Three Moons still existed, the laws bestowed from the heavens had not yet been assembled, and the boundaries of humanity had not yet been defined.
• In Wenut's description, it is mentioned that the Dragons have lived even before the concept of time were created (this one referring to the Erosion, not actual universal concept of time)

From these statements, it can be concluded that during the Old World, the framework that separates existence into distinct principles had not yet been established.

Teyvat (After the Arrival of the Heavenly Principles)

Spoiler: New World (Teyvat)

After arriving in Teyvat, the Heavenly Principles created four shining Shades of itself in order to defeat the Seven Sovereigns. Forty years after their arrival, the Seven Sovereigns were defeated, which marked the beginning of the creation of the Heaven and Earth, or the Human Realm. From this point onward, the Heavenly Principles began establishing the boundaries that define reality.

Until the day that the winged Descender arrived, treading upon the morning star...
It was not the great enemy that would extinguish the stars, nor did it seem intent on plundering the wellspring sustaining the world's existence.
Faced with this uninvited guest, the three guardians who represented the will of the planet debated endlessly.
But whether by submission or rebellion, by battle or by death, the Lord of Hosts would mercilessly crush all that stood in its way.
For this was the new world it had chosen for the children of humankind, and according to its design, both earth and sky would be reborn.
Before the conquest of the day reached its fated close, the servants of the night could but bide their time...

(Source: Moonlit Offering's Final Hour)

Evidence for this includes:

• Nicole states that after the arrival of the Heavenly Principles, they changed the world down to its very foundation.
• In the book Hymns of the Far North, Prayer Song I: Pitkamoonen, it is stated that the Heavenly Principles have shattered the laws of the Old World.
• In the Finale of the Deep Galleries artifact description, it is stated that the Four Shades were tasked with governing the metaphysical laws of Teyvat — namely Life, Death, Time, and Space. The Voyager saw the earth had been bound beneath the Fourfold Shackles (the Four Shades)
• In the Nod-Krai Archon Quest Act 7, Dottore explains that these Four Great Rulers who govern Life, Death, Time, and Space anchor the world and bind those who live within it to the boundaries they defined, while they themselves transcend these boundaries.
  • This includes people's thinking, logic, culture, philosophy, and etc. Also with the concept of fate, which is the constellation, or Stella Fortuna that controls the fates (past, present, and future) of all humans in Teyvat.

This implies that the Four Shades are not merely enforcing rules, but are responsible for defining the limits that makes the world stable.

: "But that's just Law Manipulation"​

Some may argue that this is only Law Manipulation, but the lore suggests something deeper. If the boundaries of humanity, which includes Life, Death, Time, and Space did not exist before the rule of the Heavenly Principles, then the Shades did not simply control existing laws, but they helped to create the very framework in which laws can exist. And they also changed and redefined the concept of Life, Death, Time, and Space and apply their new definitions to the world as the rules. Because of this, their abilities align more closely with Boundary Creation, Concept Establishement/Creation Concept Alteration, and Reality Structuring, rather than just simple law control.

Example: Istaroth and the Concept of Time
A clear example is Istaroth, the Ruler of Time.
She is responsible for one of the fundamental aspects/concept of time in Teyvat known as Erosion, sometimes referred to as the “Curse of Time” (Read here for a better explanations regarding the Erosion.) She is even described as Time itself, and the one who govern every moments.

If Time and every moments itself depends on her authority, then her power (and the other shades) operates on a conceptual or boundary level rather than simple law manipulation. Additionally, the concept of time is described as one of the rules of the world, and even the Traveler, despite being a Descender, is still bound by it. This indicates that these rules apply universally within the Firmament, also referred to as the False Sky, meaning they are part of the world’s fundamental structure. Furthermore, in Alchemy descriptions, it is stated that the Laws of the Universe created the world together with its seven elements, which reinforcing the idea that these boundaries are not JUST ordinary rules, but the core of principles that define reality itself

Conclusion
Based on the lore statements above, the Four Shades should qualify for Boundary Manipulation (CM – Type 2), or just straight up Conceptual Manipulation Type 2
because:

• The boundaries of Life, Death, Time, and Space were created as part of an ordered system.
• This system belongs to the framework of Teyvat itself.
• These concepts depend on the order established by the Heavenly Principles.
• These concepts are part of the world’s structure and can be altered, similar to the Ley Lines, which are another conceptual network that stabilizes the world.

Or is it just CM Type 1? Idk...

Lastly, since the Four Shades defined these boundaries and are stated transcend all of them, they should also possess Resistance to this ability and those conceptual boundaries. And all of their respective abilities would be at Conceptual level

Conceptual / Boundary Manipulation (CM – Type 2; The Heavenly Principles and the Four Shades established the fundamental boundaries of existence in Teyvat—Life, Death, Time, and Space—which did not exist prior to their arrival. It is stated that during the era of the Old World, there was no boundary between Life and Death. These boundaries later became part of the world's fundamental structure, forming universal laws that govern all things.)

EDIT: Proposal have changed from Concept Creation, to → Concept Alteration with the same reason as presented here. Summary:

Four Shades Boundary/Conceptual Manipulation

but the fact still remains that these concepts existed before the shades and are not dependent on their existence to exist. before the shades existed, time progressed, life was born, people died, and space seperated everything. there hasnt been a scan saying the concepts didnt exist before the...

vsbattles.com

---

Agree:
Furina003 (Prefer CM1) - AsterReal - LoudestProcedure


Neutral:
Zanesucksatlife (for now)


Disagree: TWILIGHT-OP - Vietthai96
Grabbing_dragon - Mbpoops - PedjaTarzan - Weaver261 - Frostyyyy12 - Giannysmag

---

Music that i've been listening to recently, from Baby Keem's Album "Ca$ino" (Album of the year so far btw)

 

[Furina003]

I disagreed with the downgrade from the start, so I agree with CRT for the same reasons explained by the OP

 

[Mr. Bambu]

It's kinda nitpicky, but it hasn't been three months yet (4 days off, from time of publishing), and thus this falls against the rules of re-litigating an issue. Locking for now, come back to get it unlocked in a week-ish.

 

[MSahla]

Finally this open again.. Let's bump this.

 

[AsterReal]

It looks good.

 

[LoudestProcedure]

Seems fine

 

[Mbpoops]

neutral for now

 

[Zanesucksatlife]

Neutral

 

[Voidnether]

I still don't see why this would qualify as a concept cause like I still don't see a single statement that verbatim says that, I'd leave this to the staff (and I'd advise them to read the old thread if anything) but like all I have a problem now is that these Shades being mentioned as concepts literally extends to their HDE (which literally would be a disqualifier for HDE) and their Abstract Existence (Type 1). I only applied this properly for Rhinedottir for the time being as the other 4 Shades, even if it had their Conceptual Manipulation removed; there's still mentions Shades about concepts and stuff that I'm genuinely lazy to remove other than from Rhinedottir and arguments aside. I'd like you to please write a better justification on the profiles, because like the one that gives me a headache the most isn't even arguing about this but rather the justification for the Shades's abilities are mostly written in poor english. I think this has to be addressed here too. The problem is that the several mentions of Shades being concept is like redundant because it's stated on the justification 3-4 times and more, you only need it stated once

 

[MSahla]

I still don't see why this would qualify as a concept cause like I still don't see a single statement that verbatim says that,

They defined the boundaries of Humanity, which as we know; Life, Death, Time and Space. This includes something like separates worlds, realms, dimensions, enforces the laws of Teyvat, and keeps the world stable, and prevents higher reality from interfering. Which means that these boundaries is not just spatial, but it is a law of existence, which qualifies as conceptual.

As i mentioned in the Istaroth section as an example;
If Time itself depends on Istaroth, and Space itself depends on Asmoday (and so on with the other shades), and the world is bounded by those authorities, then the boundary is made from the concepts that define reality, not from matter/it appeared out of nowhere.

I'd leave this to the staff (and I'd advise them to read the old thread if anything)

Your thread debunks nothing. And at that time, there was no scans that says anything in the OP. This thread is fresh with a whole new stuffs from the recent new patches.

but like all I have a problem now is that these Shades being mentioned as concepts literally extends to their HDE (which literally would be a disqualifier for HDE) and their Abstract Existence (Type 1).

This is literally just about their abilities, not themselves. Besides, theres an ongoing thread trying to remove their HDE and AE1.

 

[Voidnether]

They defined the boundaries of Humanity, which as we know; Life, Death, Time and Space. This includes something like separates worlds, realms, dimensions, enforces the laws of Teyvat, and keeps the world stable, and prevents higher reality from interfering. Which means that these boundaries is not just spatial, but it is a law of existence, which qualifies as conceptual.

As i mentioned in the Istaroth section as an example;
If Time itself depends on Istaroth, and Space itself depends on Asmoday (and so on with the other shades), and the world is bounded by those authorities, then the boundary is made from the concepts that define reality, not from matter/it appeared out of nowhere.

Your thread debunks nothing. And at that time, there was no scans that says anything in the OP. This thread is fresh with a whole new stuffs from the recent new patches.


This is literally just about their abilities, not themselves. Besides, theres an ongoing thread trying to remove their HDE and AE1.

Law of Existence doesn't necessarily have to be conceptual, you clearly do know there's a reason why they're mainly treated as an aspect of the Law instead of a concept. I really don't know why you're fixating this to be Conceptual Manipulation, but if you want it to be Conceptual Manipulation that bad then it's your choice. Assuming conceptual jargons like @SuperNova55555 or @Grabbing_dragon don't disagree with this thread, of course. I believe the old thread has addressed enough, and that this thread doesn't remotely try to debunk them, you know having them still stated to be the Law in any capacity is no way categorized as Conceptual Manipulation anyway.

 

[Mbpoops]

nova being summoned to deal with another cm hoyo thread

 

[MSahla]

Law of Existence doesn't necessarily have to be conceptual, you clearly do know there's a reason why they're mainly treated as an aspect of the Law instead of a concept. I really don't know why you're fixating this to be Conceptual Manipulation, but if you want it to be Conceptual Manipulation that bad then it's your choice.

And Genshin treated them as conceptual?
The Laws of Existence in Genshin are not portrayed as mere regulatory rules but as the very principles that define reality itself, and since the world is anchored by the authorities of Istaroth, Asmoday, Ronova, and Naberius, who govern Time, Space, Death, and Life, the laws function as the conceptual framework of existence itself rather than non-conceptual aspects, meaning calling them "just laws" does not remove their conceptual nature. I already addressed this in the OP. I think you need to learn more about Genshin lore.

Assuming conceptual jargons like @SuperNova55555 or @Grabbing_dragon don't disagree with this thread, of course. I believe the old thread has addressed enough, and that this thread doesn't remotely try to debunk them, you know having them still stated to be the Law in any capacity is no way categorized as Conceptual Manipulation anyway.

Why do i or we must have their approvement first anyway? I mean if they're disagree, then so be it. Nobody forcing them to agree with this. And i think you're mindset is like "If this is Law, then it'll always be Law, and cannot be conceptual whatsoever", like bruh.. As if Laws can't be concept. Even the Laws of the Universe are conceptual (and the Laws in Genshin are from the Laws of the Universe)

 

[Mbpoops]

my current issues with the thread are

1. how did life death and space not exist before their respective shades. i can see time as in the video you showed it refers to istaroth as time but was there any life before the shade of life spawned in? same with the shade of death, if life existed could no one die? seems kind of weird to me but maybe its explained ingame i havent kept up with genshin in a while.

2. does genshin treat the shade of space as in outerspace or actual space inbetween objects and things (i guess an example like gojo's infinity being the space between him and his opponent) if the latter then was everything just jumbled up together before the shade spawned in? that doesnt make much sense to me : P

Istaroth i can see cm2 as long as she and the concept are bound to eachother (Istaroth destroyed = the concept of time goes away and vise versa) but the others idrk its a bit weird when you think about it

 

[MSahla]

how did life death and space not exist before their respective shades. i can see time as in the video you showed it refers to istaroth as time but was there any life before the shade of life spawned in? same with the shade of death, if life existed could no one die? seems kind of weird to me but maybe its explained ingame i havent kept up with genshin in a while.

They do exist but the boundaries are not. That's why Nicole said there was no boundaries between Life and Death. And another evidence says there was no concept of time, which refers to the Erosion.

What they means by "There was no boundaries between Life and Death" is merely a cycle/law, not a manipulation of life and death. Because life and death didn't have boundaries during the time of the Three Moon Goddesses. They couldn't determine life and death.

For example, if A dies, the Moon Goddess's job is only to guide them after death, just as they did during their lives. The Three Moon Goddesses only assist them while they're alive. This is what Alice means, the cycle of life and death/ebb and flow.

This is also why they weren't considered heretics by Phanes and were allowed to live. Phanes considered them still useful in the new world order they created, still useful in guiding humanity. So, the authority of the Three Moon Goddesses is more about law, not directly impacting the four fundamental aspects. This is what differentiates the Four Shades from the Trilune Goddesses. This is sometimes misunderstood, even though Alice never mentions that the Three Moon Goddesses can grant life and death.

And i still don't even know why people think "Four Shades = Moon Goddesses", they're just coping.

2. does genshin treat the shade of space as in outerspace or actual space inbetween objects and things (i guess an example like gojo's infinity being the space between him and his opponent) if the latter then was everything just jumbled up together before the shade spawned in? that doesnt make much sense to me : P

They were stated resides beyond the heavens and the moons.
We can see it from the Gods' Limits trailer


If anything, they were not bound or limited by the False Sky.

 

[Furina003]

Istaroth i can see cm2 as long as she and the concept are bound to eachother (Istaroth destroyed = the concept of time goes away and vise versa) but the others idrk its a bit weird when you think about it

it's the same because there are 4 limits of humanity that support human reality, not just istatoth, this is the order intended by the 3 moon goddesses, the order brought by phanes, this never existed or was not defined during the era when the 3 moon goddesses ruled.
therefore when the traveler remembers the concept of time, he also remembers the other 4 limits

and that's the concept, a concept is an idea or definition of an object

 

[NothingToDebateWith]

Honestly, I'd say forget Boundary Manipulation. Not even THE Boundary Manipulation personified has that listed in her profile as a (separate) power. :/

 

[MSahla]

Honestly, I'd say forget Boundary Manipulation. Not even THE Boundary Manipulation personified has that listed in her profile as a (separate) power. :/

That's why i said:

Boundary Manipulation (CM – Type 2), or just straight up Conceptual Manipulation Type 2
because:

 

[Mbpoops]

They do exist but the boundaries are not. That's why Nicole said there was no boundaries between Life and Death. And another evidence says there was no concept of time, which refers to the Erosion.

What they means by "There was no boundaries between Life and Death" is merely a cycle/law, not a manipulation of life and death. Because life and death didn't have boundaries during the time of the Three Moon Goddesses. They couldn't determine life and death.

Ngl this just reads as nominalism. If they couldnt determine what life and death were before the shades descended, yet the concept still existed, then the shades just simply made it easier to distinguish the two concepts.

This is also why they weren't considered heretics by Phanes and were allowed to live. Phanes considered them still useful in the new world order they created, still useful in guiding humanity. So, the authority of the Three Moon Goddesses is more about law, not directly impacting the four fundamental aspects. This is what differentiates the Four Shades from the Trilune Goddesses. This is sometimes misunderstood, even though Alice never mentions that the Three Moon Goddesses can grant life and death.

Im not sure what any of this means

They were stated resides beyond the heavens and the moons.
We can see it from the Gods' Limits trailer


If anything, they were not bound or limited by the False Sky.

Oh i wasnt saying the were bound by the false sky (would be pretty weird since istaroth still has 2-C ED) but that the concept of “space” not existing before the shade of space would be very weird because there would be no space between objects. everything would just be a jumbled mess, its more like she spawned in and they were able to define what space is, same with the other shades (except istaroth). the shades being “anchors” of the concepts could very well just be them being the main distinguishers of these concepts not that the concept is bound to them (death exists without ronova same with space and life and their respective shades)

 

[Mbpoops]

it's the same because there are 4 limits of humanity that support human reality, not just istatoth, this is the order intended by the 3 moon goddesses, the order brought by phanes, this never existed or was not defined during the era when the 3 moon goddesses ruled.

The problem im having is i dont see enough proof for the other shades’d concepts to be bound to them. Like sahl mentioned, life, space, and death all existed before their shades they just couldnt be “defined” or “separated” until their shade came to be. This is just nominalism and not CM especially when their concept isnt bound to them just that they define what the concept is

therefore when the traveler remembers the concept of time, he also remembers the other 4 limits

and that's the concept, a concept is an idea or definition of an object

Im not sure what this has to do with anything

 

[MSahla]

Ngl this just reads as nominalism. If they couldnt determine what life and death were before the shades descended, yet the concept still existed, then the shades just simply made it easier to distinguish the two concepts.

The world explicitly said to be anchored and structured by the authorities tied to Four Shades, which means Life, Death, Time, and Space did not merely become easier to distinguish after the Shades appeared, but were stabilized and defined as fundamental laws of reality by their authority (hence part of the world's fundamental structure). Which also contradicting the idea that the concepts already existed independently in a nominalist sense.

but that the concept of “space” not existing before the shade of space would be very weird because there would be no space between objects. everything would just be a jumbled mess, its more like she spawned in and they were able to define what space is, same with the other shades (except istaroth).

Again, it doesn't mean the absolute concept of space weren't exist, it is just the boundaries of it. The absence of Asmoday would not mean objects had to behave normally without space, but rather that the framework that defines separation, position, and dimensional order did not yet exist in a stable form, making it a matter of reality being undefined rather than merely undefined in name. This just how a Boundaries works.

the shades being “anchors” of the concepts could very well just be them being the main distinguishers of these concepts not that the concept is bound to them (death exists without ronova same with space and life and their respective shades)

This is not really true, because the Shades are described as beings who anchor and sustain the world’s fundamental order, meaning the authorities tied to Ronova, Naberius, Asmoday, and Istaroth are not just identifiers of Life, Death, Space, and Time but the very foundations that keep those states defined and stable in Teyvat, that's why Nicole said the Heavenly Principles changed the world completely down to its very foundations. And if you say these concepts exist independently of them, then it contradicts the statement that these divisions are what bind the world and everything within it.

 

[MSahla]

Anyway, we are just going on circle if we keep continue this, so we better stop here so the thread won't be that long. @Mbpoops
I'm tired of having a long ass pages.

I hope the staffs would see this soon enough.

 

[Furina003]

The problem im having is i dont see enough proof for the other shades’d concepts to be bound to them. Like sahl mentioned, life, space, and death all existed before their shades they just couldnt be “defined” or “separated” until their shade came to be. This is just nominalism and not CM especially when their concept isnt bound to them just that they define what the concept is

Im not sure what this has to do with anything

Everything explained by Sahl is quite clear, do we think that time is a concept while the other 3 are not, this actually creates inconsistency with the evidence that does not exist, because these 4 limitations are what support reality, not one of them.

the nominalist concept is a concept that is merely a mention, 4 limitations have been explained as concepts that support reality, so it is not a nominalist concept but is fundamental concept

 

[Grabbing_dragon]

Put me in disagree, since nothing here shows conceptual manipulation. All of these things can be done with law manipulation, and it’s even explained on the law page that laws must apply themselves to reality in order to qualify. The other points were already addressed by @Voidnether and @Mbpoops

The ability to manipulate "laws" that automatically apply themselves upon reality, referring to rules, mandates and even fundamental logical principles/truths/facts that are the way in which a reality may function.

 

[Mbpoops]

Disagree aswell And from the bit of reading i did on the old crt apparently ishtaroth being low 2-C disqualifies her from having cm2 ill have to look more into that tho

 

[Mbpoops]

Yea so after reading the old crt its pretty clear all these concepts including time existed before their shades and the concepts and shades dependants upon eachother so no cm2 imo its just law manipulation

 

[MSahla]

Yea so after reading the old crt its pretty clear all these concepts including time existed before their shades and the concepts and shades dependants upon eachother so no cm2 imo its just law manipulation

Respectfully, do you read?
I've been saying this multiple times that they DO exist, but the boundaries are not.

The lore implies the Shades are not merely users of pre-existing laws but the very authorities that define and sustain those concepts, meaning the concepts function through their existence rather than independently of them, since the laws of the world are shown to derive from higher conceptual authorities rather than exist on equal footing with them.

Anyway, i guess it's pointless since you're already disagreed.

 

[Mbpoops]

Respectfully, do you read?
I've been saying this multiple times that they DO exist, but the boundaries are not.

What do you mean by boundaries

The lore implies the Shades are not merely users of pre-existing laws but the very authorities that define and sustain those concepts, meaning the concepts function through their existence rather than independently of them, since the laws of the world are shown to derive from higher conceptual authorities rather than exist on equal footing with them.

The problem with this is the concepts were functioning before the shades existed. Time, life, death, and space all functioned seemingly fine before the shades came into existence they just werent differentiated. Im still not entirely sure what you mean by “boundaries” it just seems like they are differentiating those concepts

 

[MSahla]

What do you mean by boundaries

??
The boundaries of humanity, which restrict them? If we take Istaroth for example, whose domain over Time, she would be the one who define cause and effect/causality in Teyvat.

It's literally in OP. I'm not even sure you read all of them atp.

In the Nod-Krai Archon Quest Act 7, Dottore explains that these Four Great Rulers who govern Life, Death, Time, and Space anchor the world and bind those who live within it to the boundaries they defined, while they themselves transcend these boundaries

The problem with this is the concepts were functioning before the shades existed. Time, life, death, and space all functioned seemingly fine before the shades came into existence they just werent differentiated.

No? the lore never shows the concepts fully operating in their current form before the Shades. In fact, it is stated that the Heavenly Principles destroyed the laws of the old world. The only thing that existed during the Old World is an undifferentiated state, and the statement that these four divisions "anchor the world and bound those who live in it" implies the Shades are what establish and stabilize the fundamental structure of reality itself, because AGAIN, these things in OP:

Until the day that the winged Descender arrived, treading upon the morning star...
It was not the great enemy that would extinguish the stars, nor did it seem intent on plundering the wellspring sustaining the world's existence.
Faced with this uninvited guest, the three guardians who represented the will of the planet debated endlessly.
But whether by submission or rebellion, by battle or by death, the Lord of Hosts would mercilessly crush all that stood in its way.
For this was the new world it had chosen for the children of humankind, and according to its design, both earth and sky would be reborn.
Before the conquest of the day reached its fated close, the servants of the night could but bide their time...

After arriving in Teyvat, the Heavenly Principles created four shining Shades of itself in order to defeat the Seven Sovereigns. Forty years after their arrival, the Seven Sovereigns were defeated, which marked the beginning of the creation of the Heaven and Earth, or the Human Realm. From this point onward, the Heavenly Principles began establishing the boundaries that define reality.

They literally recreate and changed the world down to its very foundation, and shattered the old laws, and make a new one.

 

[SuperNova55555]

nova being summoned to deal with another cm hoyo thread

This feels like the tenth time this topic has been debated bro… such a slob, I don’t think I have the energy to care.

 

[Grabbing_dragon]

This feels like the tenth time this topic has been debated bro… such a slob, I don’t think I have the energy to care.

Don’t give up, make it 10+ pages

 

[PedjaTarzan]

: "But that's just Law Manipulation"​

Some may argue that this is only Law Manipulation, but the lore suggests something deeper. If the boundaries of humanity, which includes Life, Death, Time, and Space did not exist before the rule of the Heavenly Principles, then the Shades did not simply control existing laws, but they helped to create the very framework in which laws can exist. Because of this, their abilities align more closely with Boundary Creation, Concept Establishment/Concept Creation, and Reality Structuring, rather than just simple law control.

The bolded scans one shots your very argument for cm2 because you say the laws of life death time and space didnt exist before heavenly principles, yet we know that it was Triluna power aka Moon Goddeses that ruled over life death time and space, its just that their laws got overtaken by laws of heavenly principles. this in no way means that shades have created these concepts, if this was the case it would be a massive leap in logic.
Sahl we literally debated this shit several times and we already explained the several contradictions about shades even having concept hax, and you still used examples of istaroth being "concept of time" i at this point think we should make a rule about this.

Since most of the arguments are already adressed by Nether Poops and Harem Wanker i have no need to comment anymore so put me into disagree

 

[Weaver261]

Boundary Manipulation!
Look inside :
A disguise to get CM again xD

yet we know that it was Triluna power aka Moon Goddeses that ruled over life death time and space, its just that their laws got overtaken by laws of heavenly principles.

I second this. Count me as disagree

 

[Frostyyyy12]

Disagree due to reasons explained by Woomy. Nice try GPT diddy.

 

[MSahla]

The bolded scans one shots your very argument for cm2 because you say the laws of life death time and space didnt exist before heavenly principles,

I didn't say that btw, i think you aren't read enough buddy.

yet we know that it was Triluna power aka Moon Goddeses that ruled over life death time and space, its just that their laws got overtaken by laws of heavenly principles. this in no way means that shades have created these concepts, if this was the case it would be a massive leap in logic.

They ruled over Life, Death and such, yet there was no boundaries of them. What they means by "There was no boundaries between Life and Death" is merely a cycle/law, not a truly of manipulation of Life and Death. Because Life and Death didn't have boundaries during the time of the Three Moon Goddesses. They couldn't determine life and death.

For example, if A dies, the Moon Goddess's job is only to guide them after death, just as they did during their lives. The Three Moon Goddesses only assist them while they're alive. This is what Alice means, the cycle of life and death/ebb and flow.

This is also why they weren't considered heretics by Phanes and were allowed to live. Phanes considered them still useful in the new world order they created, still useful in guiding humanity. So, the authority of the Three Moon Goddesses is more about law, not directly impacting the four fundamental aspects. This is what differentiates the Four Shades from the Trilune Goddesses. This is sometimes misunderstood, even though Alice never mentions that the Three Moon Goddesses can grant life and death.

All of this were mentioned by the Tsurumi Island NPC named "Boatman" regarding "lady of the golden hall", which later was confirmed to be the the Three Moon Sisters.

The silvery vessel patrolled between mountains and seas at the moment when day and night intertwined.
In the age when the pulse of the earth's bones had not yet yielded to the heavens, the vessel guided the souls of the untainted,
Ferrying them across the corrupted mortal realm and the frigid atmosphere to rest in peace on the dark side of the moon, hidden from view.
Yet, it could not draw the gaze of the three mistresses of the golden hall to meet the eyes of the children of humankind.

(Nocturne's Curtain Call)

So please stops thinking the Moon Goddesses' governing are comparable to the Four Shades and Heavenly Principles. The Moon Goddesses only inherited Nibelung's authority to govern the world in his stead. Which mean they only govern the-already existing laws, whilst the Four Shades and Heavenly Principles created them because they literally destroyed the old one.

Sahl we literally debated this shit several times and we already explained the several contradictions about shades even having concept hax, and you still used examples of istaroth being "concept of time" i at this point think we should make a rule about this

No, we are not. This is a new reasoning for them to get Conceptual hax, lmao.

 

[Mbpoops]

I didn't say that btw, i think you aren't read enough buddy.

no what woomy is saying is right. thats not concept creation and i dont even see enough for concept altering tbh.

They ruled over Life, Death and such, yet there was no boundaries of them. What they means by "There was no boundaries between Life and Death" is merely a cycle/law, not a truly of manipulation of Life and Death. Because Life and Death didn't have boundaries during the time of the Three Moon Goddesses. They couldn't determine life and death.

nominalism

For example, if A dies, the Moon Goddess's job is only to guide them after death, just as they did during their lives. The Three Moon Goddesses only assist them while they're alive. This is what Alice means, the cycle of life and death/ebb and flow.

the fact that character A could die before the shade came into existence should be a self defeater for this thread since it proves the shade didnt create death she just changed the laws of death same with the other shades their concept isnt bound to them and it can exist without them.

This is also why they weren't considered heretics by Phanes and were allowed to live. Phanes considered them still useful in the new world order they created, still useful in guiding humanity. So, the authority of the Three Moon Goddesses is more about law, not directly impacting the four fundamental aspects. This is what differentiates the Four Shades from the Trilune Goddesses. This is sometimes misunderstood, even though Alice never mentions that the Three Moon Goddesses can grant life and death.

so then the shades would just have higher potency law manip? i dont see why this needs to be CM let alone CM2

All of this were mentioned by the Tsurumi Island NPC named "Boatman" regarding "lady of the golden hall", which later was confirmed to be the the Three Moon Sisters.

(Nocturne's Curtain Call)

So please stops thinking the Moon Goddesses' governing are comparable to the Four Shades and Heavenly Principles. The Moon Goddesses only inherited Nibelung's authority to govern the world in his stead. Which mean they only govern the-already existing laws, whilst the Four Shades and Heavenly Principles created them.

the four shades created new laws for the world based on the concepts that already existed

No, we are not. This is a new reasoning for them to get Conceptual hax, lmao.

ngl "boundary manipulation" is not the way to go the only time ive ever heard abt ts was with touhou it doesnt even have a page just seems like CM but you change conceptual to boundary

 

[Furina003]

no what woomy is saying is right. thats not concept creation and i dont even see enough for concept altering tbh.

nominalism

No, these 4 concepts support reality, so they cannot be said to be nominalist, as I said before, a nominalist concept is a concept that does not support anything, because it is not a fundamental concept, while the concept of shades has been stated many times to support reality, which means it is a fundamental concept.

the fact that character A could die before the shade came into existence should be a self defeater for this thread since it proves the shade didnt create death she just changed the laws of death same with the other shades their concept isnt bound to them and it can exist without them.

so then the shades would just have higher potency law manip? i dont see why this needs to be CM let alone CM2

not just a law, definition is not law. Definition is something that limits the essence of object A and object B.

the four shades created new laws for the world based on the concepts that already existed

Bro, in this scan, the law and definition of boundries are mentioned separately, so we cannot equate them.

 

[MSahla]

the fact that character A could die before the shade came into existence should be a self defeater for this thread since it proves the shade didnt create death she just changed the laws of death same with the other shades their concept isnt bound to them and it can exist without them.

Literally already addressed this.

so then the shades would just have higher potency law manip? i dont see why this needs to be CM let alone CM2

I mean.. Life, Death, Time and Space, these four things are really depends on their authority, and they serving as the metaphysical foundations those phenomena operate on.

But, ehh.. Whatever bro.. I already addressed thing so many times, i won't repeat myself.

the four shades created new laws for the world based on the concepts that already existed

They are not.

ngl "boundary manipulation" is not the way to go the only time ive ever heard abt ts was with touhou it doesnt even have a page just seems like CM but you change conceptual to boundary

Boundary Manipulation can be Conceptual Manipulation. Akuto Sai once have Boundary Manipulation (CM Type 1), and it was nuked here by that Grabbing_dragon person.

And ACTUALLY, that thread of his inspired me to make this thread. Why? Because that's the first time i heard about "boundary manipulation", which remind me of the Four Shades who created the fundamental boundaries of humanity.

 

[Mbpoops]

No, these 4 concepts support reality, so they cannot be said to be nominalist, as I said before, a nominalist concept is a concept that does not support anything, because it is not a fundamental concept, while the concept of shades has been stated many times to support reality, which means it is a fundamental concept.

I never said the concepts are nominalist, just that what the shades do to the concepts (as described in the thread) is nominalism they dont create these concepts nor are the concepts bounded to them. The concepts existed before them and had their own laws but then the shades came and made new laws for those concepts

not just a law, definition is not law. Definition is something that limits the essence of object A and object B.

So like ive been saying.. nominalism.. they just separated these concepts because before no one could define them

Bro, in this scan, the law and definition of boundries are mentioned separately, so we cannot equate them.

“The boundaries of heaven had yet to be defined” given the context of knowing that the concepts existed before the shades it makes more sense, at least imo, to say the shades just deadass made them distinguishable from one another which again is just nominalism

 

[Mbpoops]

Literally already addressed this.

Could you reply to where you addressed it?

I mean.. Life, Death, Time and Space, these four things are really depends on their authority, and they serving as the metaphysical foundations those phenomena operate on.

But the authorities were created by phanes so if anything i could only see phanes having it

But, ehh.. Whatever bro.. I already addressed thing so many times, i won't repeat myself.

Could you reply to this aswell?

They are not.

Are not what?

Boundary Manipulation can be Conceptual Manipulation. Akuto Sai once have Boundary Manipulation (CM Type 1), and it was nuked here by that Grabbing_dragon person.

And ACTUALLY, that thread of his inspired me to make this thread. Why? Because that's the first time i heard about "boundary manipulation", which remind me of the Four Shades who created the fundamental boundaries of humanity.

I didnt know what boundary manipulation was so mb its not even on the page for conceptual manipulation (should prolly be updated)