Pre-Time Skip Black clover speed updates

[Mommyleona]

No this isn't about the cap

Applying a new calculation and changing some scaling
Yami cuts Raia (this is the speed of Yami himself, Lightless Slash will be discussed down below)
Raia in the same panel as the feat is stated to move at light speed (when he's using light magic), to clear any doubts we can confirm the use of light magic by looking at onomatopoeia next to Raia, which is consistently used to signify the use of light magic

Spoiler: Who scales?

The scaling is basically the same as accepted in the pages already
Yami (did the feat)
Patry without light magic (Kept up with Yami in a fight)
Third eye members (Stronger than Patry)

• Vetto
• Fana
• Raia

All captains (Are comparable to each other as already accepted)

• Mereoleona
• Fuegoleon
• Nozel
• Charlotte
• Jack
• Dorothy
• William

Asta (From Underwater Temple-Witches Forest arc and onwards)

Spoiler: Dark Cloaked Lightless Slash scaling

Yami's lightless slash should have a Speed of Light rating, as it is shown to catch up to and cut Raia, who is stated to be moving at the speed of light in the same panel

Supporting evidence:
Lightless Slash is able to hit Patry, who is stated to be able to dodge at light speed
Raia who copied Yami's lightless slash considers it to be fast (who also has copied light magic)

Possible counters:
"Dark Magic is extremely slow, therefore all of it's spells are extremely slow"
In the same panel, Lightless Slash is shown as one of the exceptions to this, meaning that statement already shouldn't apply to it
Other Dark Magic spells like Dimension Slash and Death Thrust are shown to be extremely fast as well (with the former tagging Patry moving at light speed too), further supporting that not all Dark Magic spells are slow by default. Dimension Slash and Death Thrust would be rated as higher and far higher respectively
"Yami said Patry will dodge any slash at light speed"
Patry at that point is floating a fair distance away, and is now prepared for any moves Yami can make, therefore this doesn't contradict Lightless Slash being light speed

Spoiler: Other

Lumiere and Raia should have Speed of Light rating with light magic, same as Patry (not sure why this isn't on the pages)

Dark Elf Patry's Swords of Judgement should be rated as FTL
In this scene Patry is dashing towards Nozel using Dark Light magic (accepted as FTL) and while doing so he fires Swords of Judgement, these fly alongside him and should therefore have the same speed as him. (It also wouldn't make sense for Patry to fire these swords at Nozel if they were slower than himself, since he'd just reach Nozel faster than them)
This does not affect regular Patry

Adding supporting calculations to the verse page:
Asta deflects Dark Patry's Ray of Divine Punishment
Yami blocks Morgen's attack

Agree: @Random-Helper323 (Agrees with applying the calc and lightless slash scaling) @DarkDragonMedeus (Agrees with everything) @SomebodyData (Agrees with everything)
Disagree:

 

[ElJoaki5]

As someone who collaborated in the making of this I wholeheartedly agree with my pookie's thread.

 

[ElJoaki5]

There should be no doubt of Raia moving at light speed there since on top of the light sound effect he also has the brightness and motion lines that are used to show light speed movement.

The dark magic is slow statement really shouldn’t be used to bash on lightless slash's speed since as the page explains lightless slash works by cloaking his sword with darkness and this is stated to compensate for the slow speed of the magical atribute itself.

Yami hitting Patry with the slash is also big proof of it being light speed (even if he wasnt moving at light speed at that moment) since, as Yami states, Patry is able to dodge everything at light speed, which means he can just keep using light speed movement to dodge.

Yall can expect more big black clover threads from Leona and me coming soon : )

 

[Kazuma_kuwabara]

I agree after getting clarification of Julius scaling, this is just a Beginning of the series upgrade

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Looks good tbh

 

[KingTempest]

This is just him getting hit by a slash with long range this is not grounds for Yami being SOL whatsoever

 

[Kazuma_kuwabara]

This is just him getting hit by a slash with long range this is not grounds for Yami being SOL whatsoever

And the rest of arguments what, they don't exist?

 

[BiggestOpp]

Spoiler: Dark Cloaked Lightless Slash scaling

Yami's lightless slash should have a Speed of Light rating, as it is shown to catch up to and cut Raia, who is stated to be moving at the speed of light in the same panel

Didn’t he catch bro off guard?

Supporting evidence:

Lightless Slash is able to hit Patry, who is stated to be able to dodge at light speed

Didn’t Yami straight up say he wouldn’t be able to tag Patry unless he caught em off guard due to Patry moving at light speed?
In the actual manga Patry was spamming light beams and Yami was deflecting and randomly threw out the slash.
Patry also didn’t avoid it until it was like right in front of his face.

Raia who copied Yami's lightless slash considers it to be fast (who also has copied light magic)

Which panel is that stated?

 

[Mommyleona]

This is just him getting hit by a slash with long range this is not grounds for Yami being SOL whatsoever

I'm not saying that Yami himself is SOL tho? This is only for the speed of the spell, nothing else

 

[Mommyleona]

Didn’t he catch bro off guard?

wdym?
Raia is the one who caught Yami off guard at first, Yami still countered at the same time Raia was moving away using light magic (which makes him Rel+... the calc is in the OP)

Didn’t Yami straight up say he wouldn’t be able to tag Patry unless he caught em off guard due to Patry moving at light speed?

I addressed that in the op tho?

"Yami said Patry will dodge any slash at light speed"
Patry at that point is floating a fair distance away, and is now prepared for any moves Yami can make, therefore this doesn't contradict Lightless Slash being light speed

And Yami himself is slower than Patry, that isn't being contested

In the actual manga Patry was spamming light beams and Yami was deflecting and randomly threw out the slash.
Patry also didn’t avoid it until it was like right in front of his face.

Not sure what you're trying to say

Which panel is that stated?

"You won't be able to dodge this magic so easily"
Meaning he considers it fast, else why would Raia think that Mereoleona cant dodge it so easily? If it's actually awfully slow? It also helps that he was tagged by it before when moving at light speed, meaning he understands how fast it is

 

[ElJoaki5]

This is just him getting hit by a slash with long range this is not grounds for Yami being SOL whatsoever

First of all, just noting that we aren't scaling Yami himself to SoL but rather the lightless slash. Yami will be scaled to Rela+ by comparing his movement to Raia's while he was moving at confirmed light speed which should be non-contentious.

About the speed of the slash, that scene is enough proof for it moving at light speed.

• First of all we have to understand that Raia started moving before the lightless slash was fired, since he was inside Yami's range and if he didn’t dodge he'd be hit by his katana. The lightless slash would be fired after Yami's katana slash ofc, since that's how it works.
• Then it's also important to see that the slash hits Raia while he was still moving at light speed. We can know that because in that page he still has the light speed effect going on. This means Raia continuously moved at light speed from right before the lightless slash was fired to until he got hit.

If we take into account those two things, it's clear the slash should be light speed since Raia begins moving away first and then the slash is fired after him and ends up catching up to him, all while Raia continuously moved at light speed.
As a cgm I can confirm that the slash can be scaled to SoL based on this scene. It would be no different than scaling someone to SoL because they ran up to a character running at light speed.

 

[ElJoaki5]

Didn’t he catch bro off guard?

You bring this up like it's a relevant argument. Raia moved at light speed and we are comparing the movement Yami made and also the one his slash made to the one Raia made to get a speed. Him being off guard or not is completely irrelevant to the things proposed. Im not saying he was off guard to begin with, just pointing this out.

 

[Nayrysclover315]

In the actual manga Patry was spamming light beams and Yami was deflecting and randomly threw out the slash.
Patry also didn’t avoid it until it was like right in front of his face.

“Yami randomly throwing sword slashes is a bit of a weak counterargument, lol.”

 

[BiggestOpp]

wdym?
Raia is the one who caught Yami off guard at first, Yami still countered at the same time Raia was moving away using light magic (which makes him Rel+... the calc is in the OP)

I assumed Raia wasn’t aware of the lightless slash at the time, so when he backed away, he ended up getting nipped due to AOE.
But if you’re really gonna argue bro wasn’t caught off guard and he really got tagged while tryna dodge, you should be arguing FTL, not light speed. Cus what you’re saying would make it ftl.

I addressed that in the op tho?

No

And Yami himself is slower than Patry, that isn't being contested

He said slash, yk, the lightless slash

Not sure what you're trying to say

When Yami “tagged” Patry, he literally threw out a the lightless slash mid parry.
You can see on panel that the slash covered a big distance before Patry tried to dodge it. I don’t think it should be used as supporting evidence

"You won't be able to dodge this magic so easily"
Meaning he considers it fast, else why would Raia think that Mereoleona cant dodge it so easily? If it's actually awfully slow? It also helps that he was tagged by it before when moving at light speed, meaning he understands how fast it is

Idk, AOE?

 

[ElJoaki5]

I assumed Raia wasn’t aware of the lightless slash at the time, so when he backed away, he ended up getting nipped due to AOE.
But if you’re really gonna argue bro wasn’t caught off guard and he really got tagged while tryna dodge, you should be arguing FTL, not light speed. Cus what you’re saying would make it ftl.

AOE doesn’t even matter here cause it’s not like he dodges sideways. He’s dodging backwards away from the lightless slash and it just catches up to him.

 

[BiggestOpp]

AOE doesn’t even matter here cause it’s not like he dodges sideways. He’s dodging backwards away from the lightless slash and it just catches up to him.

So why are you arguing SOL and not FTL?

 

[Mommyleona]

I assumed Raia wasn’t aware of the lightless slash at the time, so when he backed away, he ended up getting nipped due to AOE.

"Aoe", i dont see how its aoe, like barely ig? its a bit wider than the sword swing

But if you’re really gonna argue bro wasn’t caught off guard and he really got tagged while tryna dodge, you should be arguing FTL, not light speed. Cus what you’re saying would make it ftl.

I'd say that Raia is dodging backwards and a little sideways, so SoL felt more appropriate

No

i even quoted it..

He said slash, yk, the lightless slash

yeah, cuz Patry is floating a dozen or more meters away, and knows what's coming, so he logically can dodge it

When Yami “tagged” Patry, he literally threw out a the lightless slash mid parry.

Wasnt really mid parry, it was when Patry angered him by what he did to Fuegoleon

You can see on panel that the slash covered a big distance before Patry tried to dodge it. I don’t think it should be used as supporting evidence

I dont understand, what you're saying is perfectly fine supporting evidence, Patry is stated to be able to dodge at light speed, him not reacting in time to dodge it properly supports what happened with Raia

 

[Kazuma_kuwabara]

bump

 

[AyOgUyS]

seems good to me

 

[Random-Helper323]

I'm not sure. I don't know the verse, so I can't speak for the context of all that's going on in the fight. This whole thread revolves around that fight scene, so it's Exhibit A here.

 

[Mommyleona]

I'm not sure. I don't know the verse, so I can't speak for the context of all that's going on in the fight. This whole thread revolves around that fight scene, so it's Exhibit A here.

I can try to explain, what are you unsure about?
The first part is easy, it's just applying an accepted calculation, not changing the inverse scaling either

Second part might be a bit confusing, but it's main evidence is actually pretty straightforward too, an attack catches up to and cuts a character trying to dodge it, who moves at stated light speed. Therefore the attack should be rated light speed too.

and the last part isn't related to the scene at all

Lumiere and Raia should have Speed of Light rating with light magic, same as Patry (not sure why this isn't on the pages)

Dark Elf Patry's Swords of Judgement should be rated as FTL
In this scene Patry is dashing towards Nozel using Dark Light magic (accepted as FTL) and while doing so he fires Swords of Judgement, these fly alongside him and should therefore have the same speed as him. (It also wouldn't make sense for Patry to fire these swords at Nozel if they were slower than himself, since he'd just reach Nozel faster than them)
This does not affect regular Patry

Adding supporting calculations to the verse page:
Asta deflects Dark Patry's Ray of Divine Punishment
Yami blocks Morgen's attack

 

[Random-Helper323]

I can try to explain, what are you unsure about?
The first part is easy, it's just applying an accepted calculation, not changing the inverse scaling either

In theory that part should be okay.

Second part might be a bit confusing, but it's main evidence is actually pretty straightforward too, an attack catches up to and cuts a character trying to dodge it, who moves at stated light speed. Therefore the attack should be rated light speed too.

Sorry, I can't tell from the scan whether the character is rushing back, whether they stopped moving them got hit, etc.

and the last part isn't related to the scene at all

 

[Mommyleona]

Sorry, I can't tell from the scan whether the character is rushing back, whether they stopped moving them got hit, etc.

I probably should've included the prior panel too for clarity, my bad, first, the character moved in close, and in the next panel jumped backwards to dodge

what about the rest?

 

[ElJoaki5]

Sorry, I can't tell from the scan whether the character is rushing back,

He jumped back to dodge as Leona explained

whether they stopped moving them got hit, etc.

I wrote an explanation on this hope it clears up doubts

About the speed of the slash, that scene is enough proof for it moving at light speed.

• First of all we have to understand that Raia started moving before the lightless slash was fired, since he was inside Yami's range and if he didn’t dodge he'd be hit by his katana. The lightless slash would be fired after Yami's katana slash ofc, since that's how it works.
• Then it's also important to see that the slash hits Raia while he was still moving at light speed. We can know that because in that page he still has the light speed effect going on. This means Raia continuously moved at light speed from right before the lightless slash was fired to until he got hit.

If we take into account those two things, it's clear the slash should be light speed since Raia begins moving away first and then the slash is fired after him and ends up catching up to him, all while Raia continuously moved at light speed.
As a cgm I can confirm that the slash can be scaled to SoL based on this scene. It would be no different than scaling someone to SoL because they ran up to a character running at light speed.

 

[Random-Helper323]

The light speed for the slash might be okay then.

 

[ElJoaki5]

The light speed for the slash might be okay then.

Thanks for the help. I dont wanna be annoying but you still haven’t said anything on the third part. It's just that our verse doesn’t really have many staff that know bout it sadly.

 

[Mommyleona]

Bump

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Looks alright to me.

 

[Mommyleona]

Bump

 

[Mommyleona]

Bump

 

[Imaginym]

I was asked to comment here.
I loosely know the verse, but I don't really know the scaling & whatnot, & it seems like this thread is concerned with a contentious point of conversation that I don't really understand, so I'm not sure I can say much at this time.

 

[Mommyleona]

I was asked to comment here.
I loosely know the verse, but I don't really know the scaling & whatnot, & it seems like this thread is concerned with a contentious point of conversation that I don't really understand, so I'm not sure I can say much at this time.

well the only part left that needs a vote is this

Lumiere and Raia should have Speed of Light rating with light magic, same as Patry (not sure why this isn't on the pages)

Dark Elf Patry's Swords of Judgement should be rated as FTL
In this scene Patry is dashing towards Nozel using Dark Light magic (accepted as FTL) and while doing so he fires Swords of Judgement, these fly alongside him and should therefore have the same speed as him. (It also wouldn't make sense for Patry to fire these swords at Nozel if they were slower than himself, since he'd just reach Nozel faster than them)
This does not affect regular Patry

Adding supporting calculations to the verse page:
Asta deflects Dark Patry's Ray of Divine Punishment
Yami blocks Morgen's attack

which shouldn't be anything particularly contentious

 

[Imaginym]

well the only part left that needs a vote is this

Why do you say that? Hasn't there been previous contention in this thread?

which shouldn't be anything particularly contentious

You assert so because of the reasons in the post of yours I'm quoting in this post of mine, I presume? No offense meant.
Are there are any notable arguments for &/or against this?

 

[Mommyleona]

Why do you say that? Hasn't there been previous contention in this thread?

If you're referring to KT's comment, then I answered and explained how he misunderstood the thread. Same for other replies.
What other contention is there?

You assert so because of the reasons in the post of yours I'm quoting in this post of mine, I presume? No offense meant.
Are there are any notable arguments for &/or against this?

Yes, all the arguments are in the OP, I just quoted them, there hasn't been any contentions towards the specific part I quoted tho
The part that had any contentions is already accepted

 

[Worthless]

Didn’t Yami straight up say he wouldn’t be able to tag Patry unless he caught em off guard due to Patry moving at light speed?

And that was while Patry was gathering the amount of mana needed to cast the Judgment spell too. And it's clear that when they said Dark Magic was slow, it was in comparison to all attributes rather than being slower than only light attributes

 

[Worthless]

Raia who copied Yami's lightless slash considers it to be fast (who also has copied light magic)

This would just honestly create a circular scaling that makes no sense because right after that chapter Rhya cast Swords of Conviction and says he highly doubt Mereoloana would be able to keep up with their speed (We also have Asta saying it’s insanely fast, yet didn’t say the same about Lightless Slash)

 

[Mommyleona]

And that was while Patry was gathering the amount of mana needed to cast the Judgment spell too. And it's clear that when they said Dark Magic was slow, it was in comparison to all attributes rather than being slower than only light attributes

Both of those things have already been addressed in the OP.

This would just honestly create a circular scaling that makes no sense because right after that chapter Rhya cast Swords of Conviction and says he highly doubt Mereoloana would be able to keep up with their speed (We also have Asta saying it’s insanely fast, yet didn’t say the same about Lightless Slash)

We have Raia cast both Swords of Conviction and Lightless Slash at the same, with Lightless Slash being faster
Raia can simply be referring to the fact that he's spamming like a dozen of them at the same time compared to just 1 Lightless Slash prior.

 

[ElJoaki5]

And that was while Patry was gathering the amount of mana needed to cast the Judgment spell too.

This is irrelevant, Yami stated that Patry could still dodge at light speed in that moment, the point in the op stands.

And it's clear that when they said Dark Magic was slow, it was in comparison to all attributes rather than being slower than only light attributes

Yeah Dark Magic in itself is slow but if you read the full statement it lists lightless slash and the other applications of dark magic which involve cloaking the katana in darkness as things that are exceptions to this. The op already addressed this.

 

[Worthless]

Both of those things have already been addressed in the OP.

Ok

We have Raia cast both Swords of Conviction and Lightless Slash at the same, with Lightless Slash being faster
Raia can simply be referring to the fact that he's spamming like a dozen of them at the same time compared to just 1 Lightless Slash prior.

Swords of Conviction doesn’t immediately set off the moment it’s cast and even though it appears that Lightless was already ahead of the light spells (you said it yourself) they all reach their destination at the same time, unless you also want to argue that basic light is also lightspeed. In any case, that scene is just too vague but there’s totally no reason to go with your interpretation when Rhya and Asta treat Swords of Conviction as faster than Lightless Slash.

 

[Mommyleona]

Swords of Conviction doesn’t immediately set off the moment it’s cast

but in the panel we see that they're flying already (look at the sides) when the slash is flying, and we are literally told they're being cast at the same time

ven though it appears that Lightless was already ahead of the light spells (you said it yourself) they all reach their destination at the same time

in the scan you're linking (which I also did), you can clearly see that the Lightless Slash is ahead of them and is closer to Mereoleona

In any case, that scene is just too vague but there’s totally no reason to go with your interpretation when Rhya and Asta treat Swords of Conviction as faster than Lightless Slash.

Raia does not treat them as faster and my explanation works here, Asta is irrelevant here since he wasn't making any comparisons between the 2.

You are also ignoring 2 other points in the op which were the main evidence.