Team Fortress 2 Upgrade and revision CTR (Tier 8/7 Upgrades and FTL speed)

[DaReaperMan]

I was refering to the Speed, but ogey.

Since AP was bring up, uh...

Game Mechanics page.
Could I get why this shouldn't be applied here?

Hi, StarCraft guy here. I don't know what the **** it's talking about.

Yamato Cannons do one-shot Infantry, in fact it takes being called "Ultralisk" "Thor" "Odin" or "Immortal" to survive one when it comes to the ground forces. Reavers might barely survive it, but otherwise, nada. Even without game mechanics though, those things survive nuclear missiles and shit, which is... word for word what a Yamato Cannon is.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Hi, StarCraft guy here. I don't know what the **** it's talking about.

Yamato Cannons do one-shot Infantry, in fact it takes being called "Ultralisk" "Thor" "Odin" or "Immortal" to survive one when it comes to the ground forces. Reavers might barely survive it, but otherwise, nada. Even without game mechanics though, those things survive nuclear missiles and shit, which is... word for word what a Yamato Cannon is.

@DarkDragonMedeus Can I have backup on this one?

 

[AmonInChains]

Hi, StarCraft guy here. I don't know what the **** it's talking about.

Yamato Cannons do one-shot Infantry, in fact it takes being called "Ultralisk" "Thor" "Odin" or "Immortal" to survive one when it comes to the ground forces. Reavers might barely survive it, but otherwise, nada. Even without game mechanics though, those things survive nuclear missiles and shit, which is... word for word what a Yamato Cannon is.

Uh, I'd like to give my opinion on this but the truth is I've never touched StarCraft in my life, and I doubt I will tbh.

In any case, I think it's understood the point that GM wants to make, although ofc if what you tell me is true, the example is bad and should be replaced.

 

[Rex_Eckles]

I was refering to the Speed, but ogey.

Since AP was bring up, uh...

Game Mechanics page.
Could I get why this shouldn't be applied here?

Pyro can air-blast Cow Mangler shots, and rocket jumping is canon (Soldier can rocket jump with the Mangler)

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Hi, StarCraft guy here. I don't know what the **** it's talking about.

Yamato Cannons do one-shot Infantry, in fact it takes being called "Ultralisk" "Thor" "Odin" or "Immortal" to survive one when it comes to the ground forces. Reavers might barely survive it, but otherwise, nada. Even without game mechanics though, those things survive nuclear missiles and shit, which is... word for word what a Yamato Cannon is.

It was updated/added back in 2020, and wasn't paying attention to exact HP differences, but I agree with replacing with a better example. Yamato Cannons really only kills a single Marine and doesn't even splash damage (Was paying attention to their basic laser blasts that do not one shot Marines or Zerglings). But the lack of splash damage is still evidence of gameplay outrageously nerfing the gaps between Battlecruisers and fodder infantry. And likewise, the fact that gameplay also enables Marines to literally gun down Battlecruisers with their Assault Rifles over time is also an example of game mechanics we shouldn't take as legit scaling grounds.

 

[DaReaperMan]

It was updated/added back in 2020, and wasn't paying attention to exact HP differences, but I agree with replacing with a better example. Yamato Cannons really only kills a single Marine and doesn't even splash damage (Was paying attention to their basic laser blasts that do not one shot Marines or Zerglings). But the lack of splash damage is still evidence of gameplay outrageously nerfing the gaps between Battlecruisers and fodder infantry. And likewise, the fact that gameplay also enables Marines to literally gun down Battlecruisers with their Assault Rifles over time is also an example of game mechanics we shouldn't take as legit scaling grounds.

There's a pretty big difference between their guns and the literal condensed nuclear explosion in combat, DDM... But I'd prefer to like, have a BC profile for this example.

Can't even use Hydralisks cause they can pierce BC hulls and break Artanis' shields lmfao

 

[Rex_Eckles]

Why is this TF2 thread about Punch Out and StarCraft?

 

[DaReaperMan]

Why is this TF2 thread about Punch Out and StarCraft?

Cause SC came up randomly

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I was pinged to update the Game Mechanics page was all. But you all can move back to the main topic, but just from a glance. I'm not sure how I feel about a lot of this.

 

[AmonInChains]

I'm not sure how I feel about a lot of this.

I'm quite sick atm, so I plan to continue the discussion tomorrow if you are interested.

 

[LandonTheGuy]

I'm quite sick atm, so I plan to continue the discussion tomorrow if you are interested.

what's the problem?

Is it about the FTL scaling or the Vaporization one? (didn't exactly understand the reason of the discussion as ppl started to talk mf StarCraft)

Hope u recover big dawg

 

[LandonTheGuy]

Why is this TF2 thread about Punch Out and StarCraft?

everyone is reciving these upgrades lol

 

[LandonTheGuy]

I'm not sure how I feel about a lot of this.

I'm sure we can work something out, what exactly is the problem?

 

[LandonTheGuy]

What does that have to do with anything, also the laser weapons are not actually meant to be "light speed" but near it, its literally implied to be a particle accelerator which can go near the speed of light. Meaning it doesnt change anything when you use light speed rules.

Yes, but the point was more focused on the Cross-Comm Express thing.

 

[LandonTheGuy]

It literally shows the mercs turning into the yeti's, which is used for combat. (Specifically smashing)
Although if your going to argue it isnt used against each other (Its a game mechanic)

Dude, its a taunt that it's not even implied to be a weapon, the literal description of the weapon reads "Scare your enemies, impress your friends and trick sherpas into dating you with this yeti transformation kit." it never implies that it transforms the mercs into real Yeti, it gets treated like a literal party trick.

 

[LandonTheGuy]

Game Mechanics page.
Could I get why this shouldn't be applied here?

There's a pretty big difference between their guns and the literal condensed nuclear explosion in combat, DDM... But I'd prefer to like, have a BC profile for this example.

Can't even use Hydralisks cause they can pierce BC hulls and break Artanis' shields lmfao

yeah, also it would go heavly go against the tf2 lore.

The gravel wars started in 1850s and they continued for 3 generations of mercs till the tf2 current date 1968, during this time RED team gets into possession of the Dr.Grogbord weaponry via some rockets that land on earth (source 1 , source 2).

Now, another reason why i think the mercs do scale to these weapons it's because of 2 reasons:

• In verse they have never been depicted to be WAY above the mercs themself (contrary to weapons that were superiors to the gravel war mercs, such as the Payload)
• The RED team would have won, because if we apply the current scaling compared to the Gravel war key of the mercs for both speed and ap/dura they would have had to deal with weapons that were 5,15 times stronger than them (almost one shot) and 566501 times their reaction speed.

I could have understood if there were problems if the mercs scale to the payload (they do at the moment but they won't after this ctr), but these weapons are never depicted to be above the mercs in any way shape or form.

 

[AmonInChains]

Hope u recover big dawg

ty

rocket jumping is canon (Soldier can rocket jump with the Mangler)

I could have understood if there were problems if the mercs scale to the payload (they do at the moment but they won't after this ctr), but these weapons are never depicted to be above the mercs in any way shape or form.

1) In the cutscene, he's not taking the full damage. He's firing after jumping, which results in a loss of energy when he's hit (and the jump seems pretty big tbh).
2) The Mercs are shown being completely one-shotted by the rockets in the very Soldier introductory cutscene.

• In verse they have never been depicted to be WAY above the mercs themself (contrary to weapons that were superiors to the gravel war mercs, such as the Payload)
• The RED team would have won, because if we apply the current scaling compared to the Gravel war key of the mercs for both speed and ap/dura they would have had to deal with weapons that were 5,15 times stronger than them (almost one shot) and 566501 times their reaction speed.

Yeah like... IRL wars. This doesn't support that they scale to the weapons at all.
Should I remind again that they are tagged by 90mph/Mach 1 projectiles?
Which also, we do currently accepted the rockets as 300 m/s, which is linked on the Verse profile.

Pyro can air-blast Cow Mangler shots

I'm not sure that an air shockwave would be capable of deflecting radiation in that way.
Not only that, but the simple fact that its interaction are completely different from those of Pomson or Bison makes it hard for me to believe that the Cow Mangler would retain the properties proposed by the OP.
And we are using HU/s again which we have repeatedly stated is not consistent.

 

[Rex_Eckles]

2) The Mercs are shown being completely one-shotted by the rockets in the very Soldier introductory cutscene.

Contradicted in Meet the Medic and Meet the Soldier (where the rocket jumping happens).

I'm not sure that an air shockwave would be capable of deflecting radiation in that way.
Not only that, but the simple fact that its interaction are completely different from those of Pomson or Bison makes it hard for me to believe that the Cow Mangler would retain the properties proposed by the OP.

That is a good point.

 

[Plants_vs_zombies_fan101]

1) In the cutscene, he's not taking the full damage. He's firing after jumping, which results in a loss of energy when he's hit (and the jump seems pretty big tbh).
2) The Mercs are shown being completely one-shotted by the rockets in the very Soldier introductory cutscene.

going based of the medic trailer the scout tanked literally 3 of these rockets point blank in an massively injured state and survived quite easily with other trailers/lore stuff condicting this.

Yeah like... IRL wars. This doesn't support that they scale to the weapons at all.
Should I remind again that they are tagged by 90mph/Mach 1 projectiles?
Which also, we do currently accepted the rockets as 300 m/s, which is linked on the Verse profile.

going based off of trailers and general lore stuff they are able to react to and dodge/reflect these attacks.

I'm not sure that an air shockwave would be capable of deflecting radiation in that way.
Not only that, but the simple fact that its interaction are completely different from those of Pomson or Bison makes it hard for me to believe that the Cow Mangler would retain the properties proposed by the OP.
And we are using HU/s again which we have repeatedly stated is not consistent.

i will let landontheguy address this

 

[LandonTheGuy]

1) In the cutscene, he's not taking the full damage. He's firing after jumping, which results in a loss of energy when he's hit (and the jump seems pretty big tbh).
2) The Mercs are shown being completely one-shotted by the rockets in the very Soldier introductory cutscene.

Here's a clip of the mercs tanking the cowmangler:


Also i think the second thing is more for comedic/cinematic effect.

Yeah like... IRL wars. This doesn't support that they scale to the weapons at all.

Can you explain to me why?

Because you are supporting the fact that "Oh yeah we got weapons that are 6 times stronger than us and we can't even percive, but we are still at a stalemate somehow, I REALLY WONDER HOW TF IS THAT POSSIBLE".

Should I remind again that they are tagged by 90mph/Mach 1 projectiles?
Which also, we do currently accepted the rockets as 300 m/s, which is linked on the Verse profile.

we are not using hu scaling

I'm not sure that an air shockwave would be capable of deflecting radiation in that way.

Pyro's airblast has shown to be capable of reflecting electricity , fireballs (Ok fire and air can realistically interact but you can't tell me that it should reflect between each other) and overall shit that isn't even supposed to do a 180 degree and go back.

Not only that, but the simple fact that its interaction are completely different from those of Pomson or Bison makes it hard for me to believe that the Cow Mangler would retain the properties proposed by the OP.

This is because the Pomson and Bison have the this as a listed ability while the Cowmangler doesn't, it's never implied that the reason that this is the case it's because the weapon doesn't use radiation.

The reasoning because we assume the cowmangler uses electromagnetic waves it's because it's referred as a wave weaponary and it's straight up called focused wave projector.

And we are using HU/s again which we have repeatedly stated is not consistent.

No, we are not, this whole thing is based on the fact that these projectile can be airblasted.



I know you are sick and u provably don't feel too good, but please read the thread reasonings when you feel a lil better, it's all explained there.

 

[Rex_Eckles]

The reasoning because we assume the cowmangler uses electromagnetic waves it's because it's referred as a wave weaponary and it's straight up called focused wave projector.

That is also a good point.

I'm not sure what to think.

 

[LandonTheGuy]

i will let landontheguy address this

That is a good point.

it's all in the thread guys

Dr.grordbort weapon speed explaination:
The cowmangler is also stated to be in game as a "focused wave projector" and it's also referred as "wave weaponary" in the introduction section of the victory pack, and considering the setting sci-fi of the weapon it shouldn't be a strech to say the burp it's referring to electromagnetic waves (reminder that electromagnetic waves move at the speed of light).

The cow mangler 5000 who not only produces a projectile similar energy beam attack that can be air-blasted and therefore being reacted upon (want to point out that the fact that airblast works on the cowmangler isn't something that disqualifies it from being a radiation based attack, as we got the same weapon deflecting electricity based attacks and other projectiles that shouln't be effected in that way like fireballs),we got statemets for other weapons that come with the Cowmangler 5000 like "Blasting out rapid pulses of high amplitude, cross spectrum radiation has never been so convenient!" whitch not only confirms that this weapon shoots radiation but also implies that other weapons can do that too.

And the only 2 projectiles that are similar to the Cowmangler 5000 also go at the speed of light (AKA the Pomson itself and the The Righteous Bison) so i think it wouldn't be much of a strech assume that the cow mangler shoots radiation too.

In short, the weapon is has been referenced to shoot radiation bullets, we got other weapons that shoot radiation bullets and these weapons have pretty much the same functionality type and have similar bullets, so why not saing that the Cowmangler 5000 can in fact shoot radiation bullets?

I know it's long but it's here

 

[Rex_Eckles]

it's all in the thread guys

I know it's long but it's here

Yeah, I know, sorry for putting this pressure on you.

 

[LandonTheGuy]

That is also a good point.

I'm not sure what to think.

add to the fact that we do have weapons that are straight up confirmed to use radiation/electromagnetic waves +said projectiles are extreamly similar to the one the cowmangler uses and that will give you an opinion

 

[LandonTheGuy]

Yeah, I know, sorry for putting this pressure on you.

nah don't worry just wanted to remind everyone that WE ARE NOT USING HAMMER UNIT SCALING HERE


(don't worry i'm not mad with u cuh)

 

[Rex_Eckles]

nah don't worry just wanted to remind everyone that WE ARE NOT USING HAMMER UNIT SCALING HERE


(don't worry i'm not mad with u cuh)

Thanks man.



though bringing back hammer unit scaling would be based

 

[LandonTheGuy]

Thanks man.

np

though bringing back hammer unit scaling would be based

Rex... i have spended the last year and half searching for every piece of feats that might have missed during the last ctr that upscaled tf2 to 9-A, searching tru comics, sfm videos and i've read at least 90% of the weapons description/burps that valve has released for this game 5 times each.

But even i don't want to get involved into that nonesense.

(ignore the fact that i'm using imugur, i don't know how to upload a img here lmao)

 

[LandonTheGuy]

though bringing back hammer unit scaling would be based

u know what? fk we ballin

 

[AmonInChains]

Meet the Soldier (where the rocket jumping happens).

I repeat that at no point does Soldier tank the entire explosion, that is at the epicenter.

1. First scene, he did make a big leap before, which would result in not getting the whole energy.
   
2. Same thing with second one.
   

Not only that, but in the latest one they obliterated mercs again.

going based off of trailers and general lore stuff they are able to react to and dodge/reflect these attacks.

proof

Here's a clip of the mercs tanking the cowmangler:

• In StarCraft, battle cruisers do not automatically one-shot fodder infantry soldiers with their ATS lasers, nor do their Yamato Cannons cause spread damage to kill more than one unit. However, in the cutscenes, Yamato cannons nuke the entire battlefield, cause mass genocide, and obliterate entire populations. The game's programming tries to avoid making large ships too overpowered during gameplay for competitive purposes.

Also it's not my fault that StarCraft is apparently wrongly mentioned, but the point is understood.

Because you are supporting the fact that "Oh yeah we got weapons that are 6 times stronger than us and we can't even percive, but we are still at a stalemate somehow, I REALLY WONDER HOW TF IS THAT POSSIBLE".

We don't scale Vietnam soldiers physically to above Mach 2.5 and 9-A by winning their war lol.

The "We can't perceive the weapons" argument is weak, unless we're talking about combat speed/reaction time of the enemies, which isn't what's being added but simply scaled because they won against the WEAPONRY. If the enemy can't perceive their own weapons, they're on equal footing.

we are not using hu scaling

Rocket speed is not HU scaling, it's using IRL speed.
Wrap Assassin is not HU scaling, it's verbatim stated speed.
Baseball speed is not HU scaling, it's verbatim stated speed too.

Pyro's airblast has shown to be capable of reflecting electricity , fireballs (Ok fire and air can realistically interact but you can't tell me that it should reflect between each other) and overall shit that isn't even supposed to do a 180 degree and go back.

I think this is fair?

This is because the Pomson and Bison have the this as a listed ability while the Cowmangler doesn't, it's never implied that the reason that this is the case it's because the weapon doesn't use radiation.

Fair ig.

No, we are not, this whole thing is based on the fact that these projectile can be airblasted.

Stop at here.
The reason you say it might be air-blasted is because you're literally doing it mid-game with the projectile's velocity. The HU/s are inconsistent, which will clearly allow any player to react to it. The weapon isn't hitscan, and it's already been stated multiple times that it's slower than 90mph projectiles.
This is implicitly using HU/s, implying that air-blast is comparable to the laser.

Finally, there are multiple instances of the mercenaries being completely OBLITERATED by weaponry.

On the other hand, I don't understand how they narratively intend for them to rise above the weapons they use literally everywhere in the story.

 

[Lonkitt]

Yeah, I'm with Amon on this one. I gotta disagree with OP

 

[Rex_Eckles]

First scene, he did make a big leap before, which would result in not getting the whole energy.

Dude, that's an animation error, the rocket even fires after the explosion.

 

[LandonTheGuy]

We don't scale Vietnam soldiers physically to above Mach 2.5 and 9-A by winning their war lol.

In this case we do because the mercs have demonstrated to ability to tank and react to the weapons, and if u introduce one side weapons that are 5 times stronger and hundreds of times faster than what they can react AND IT'S STILL A STALMATE, THEN THERE'S NOT A REASON TO NOT GIVE THESE MFS THE SCALING THAT THESE WEAPONS GET.

Also by war i mean the LITERAL MATCHES THAT HAPPEN IN GAME, those are the "Gravel Wars".

The "We can't perceive the weapons" argument is weak, unless we're talking about combat speed/reaction time of the enemies, which isn't what's being added but simply scaled because they won against the WEAPONRY. If the enemy can't perceive their own weapons, they're on equal footing.

I think there was a big misunderstanding here, we are talking about only combat speed/reaction.

Rocket speed is not HU scaling, it's using IRL speed.
Wrap Assassin is not HU scaling, it's verbatim stated speed.
Baseball speed is not HU scaling, it's verbatim stated speed too.

Yes

Stop at here.
The reason you say it might be air-blasted is because you're literally doing it mid-game with the projectile's velocity. The HU/s are inconsistent, which will clearly allow any player to react to it. The weapon isn't hitscan, and it's already been stated multiple times that it's slower than 90mph projectiles.
This is implicitly using HU/s, implying that air-blast is comparable to the laser.

Whatever you are saing is not what i meant.

I'm trying to give ONLY combat and reaction speed to the mercs, upgrading the travel speed is not the point of the thread.

The point of the thread is to demonstrate that the mercs are capable of reacting the projectiles, that's it.

Did i wrote somethere on the thread that i was upgrading travel speed or is it just ambiguius?

Ok me of the future, i didn't write nothing on the scaling part for travel speed because nothing will change for it after this ctr.

Finally, there are multiple instances of the mercenaries being completely OBLITERATED by weaponry.

Link doesn't work

On the other hand, I don't understand how they narratively intend for them to rise above the weapons they use literally everywhere in the story.

The mercs tank their weapons more consistently than not.

Like, there wasn't really an instance where u could say that they don't menage to tank at least 1 hit from them (in game in sfm's it's kinda dependent).

But the game should be the interpretation of the lore so i think it should be consistent.

 

[Rex_Eckles]

Not only that, but in the latest one they obliterated mercs again.

Contradicted by the whole mechanic of rocket jumping AND the whole premise of Meet the Medic.

 

[LandonTheGuy]

OK EVERYONE I THINK I NEED TO ADDRESS THE FACT THAT MAYBE WASN'T CLEAR ALREADY.



WE ARE JUST UPGRADING REACTION/COMBAT SPEED WITH THIS THREAD'S FTL STUFF


FTL TF2 TRAVEL SPEED IS NOT A THING IN HERE, SO PLEASE DO NOT USE HU SCALING HERE BECAUSE IT'S NOT WHAT I'M DOING.


THE WHOLE FTL ARGUMENT IS BECAUSE THE COWMANGLER PROJECTILE CAN BE AIRBLASTED BY PYRO, I AM NOT USING HU SCALING SO PLEASE DON'T USE THAT AS AN ARGUMENT BECAUSE IT WOULD BE LIKE ORDERING A KEBAB INSIDE OF A PIZZERIA.

mhhh... pizza and kebab...

 

[LandonTheGuy]

Yeah, I'm with Amon on this one. I gotta disagree with OP

how may i help you?

 

[LandonTheGuy]

OK EVERYONE I THINK I NEED TO ADDRESS THE FACT THAT MAYBE WASN'T CLEAR ALREADY.



WE ARE JUST UPGRADING REACTION/COMBAT SPEED WITH THIS THREAD'S FTL STUFF


FTL TF2 IS NOT A THING IN HERE, SO PLEASE DO NOT USE HU SCALING HERE BECAUSE IT'S NOT WHAT I'M DOING.


THE WHOLE FTL ARGUMENT IS BECAUSE THE COWMANGLER PROJECTILE CAN BE AIRBLASTED BY PYRO, I AM NOT USING HU SCALING SO PLEASE DON'T USE THAT AS AN ARGUMENT BECAUSE IT WOULD BE LIKE ORDERING A KEBAB INSIDE OF A PIZZERIA.

BTW i'm not crashing out, it's to make everyone understand and not miss this fact

 

[DaReaperMan]

BTW i'm not crashing out, it's to make everyone understand and not miss this fact

 

[LandonTheGuy]

nah nah i'm cool i'm cool (that one gif of Ishowspeed eating his shirt)

 

[AmonInChains]

Dude, that's an animation error, the rocket even fires after the explosion.

Blud.

You can even see the orange charm of being fired while on the air.

In this case we do because the mercs have demonstrated to ability to tank and react to the weapons

There's no feat linked where they react.
Tanking is only in game due to not making the game freaking unbalanced, which is addresed on the GM page, and confirmed by cutscenes.
Also, this is also shown in the game, with uh, two shots.

and if u introduce one side weapons that are 5 times stronger and hundreds of times faster than what they can react AND IT'S STILL A STALMATE, THEN THERE'S NOT A REASON TO NOT GIVE THESE MFS THE SCALING THAT THESE WEAPONS GET.

Buddy, you can beat FASTER and STRONGER weapons.
Weapons are not an instant win. They require a person to control them, who must aim, have accuracy, skill, speed reaction, etc.
It would be different if you launched a freakin' nuke at me; there's nothing I can do. But projectiles traveling in a straight line are completely plausible. I repeat, that's how old wars worked (since all the crap is now handled by drones).

I think there was a big misunderstanding here, we are talking about only combat speed/reaction.

You didn't get what I mean.

Whatever you are saing is not what i meant.

I'm trying to give ONLY combat and reaction speed to the mercs, upgrading the travel speed is not the point of the thread.

The point of the thread is to demonstrate that the mercs are capable of reacting the projectiles, that's it.

Did i wrote somethere on the thread that i was upgrading travel speed or is it just ambiguius?

?
Not what I mean at all.
Your argument is that it is capable of air-blasting projectiles, and this is only allowed because in the game the speed of these weapons is very slow, and we know that this speed cannot exceed 90mph.

Link doesn't work

I couldn't link multiple links, so I will put the more relevants.

The mercs tank their weapons more consistently than not.

Not really. I put six examples of them getting destroyed.

 

[Rex_Eckles]

You can even see the orange charm of being fired while on the air.

After the explosion goes off, you can see the shadow of the rocket coming down. Also, who does the sentry explode before the explosion happens then? It's just an animation error.