Obi-Wan Kenobi vs Kakashi Hatake (Star Wars vs Naruto)

[Doggo]

"The Negotiator"

"The Copy-Cat Ninja"

Part 1 Kakashi is used
Speed equal

Obi-Wan:
Kakashi:
Anakin and Obito smack them both (incon):

 

[Phsccarvalho]

Follow

 

[Doggo]

I am presuming Kenobi's mind hax resistance is enough to survive Kakashi's passive fear hax

 

[Phsccarvalho]

I am presuming Kenobi's mind hax resistance is enough to survive Kakashi's passive fear hax

I don't know if the two are correlated. Although technically an OWK/ANH version of Obi-Wan should have resistance because of Vader, I haven't updated those profiles individually yet.

Also, ninjas don't have Type 3 Madness, and the profiles are outdated?

 

[AlternativePrinciple]

I don't know if the two are correlated. Although technically an OWK/ANH version of Obi-Wan should have resistance because of Vader, I haven't updated those profiles individually yet.

Also, ninjas don't have Type 3 Madness, and the profiles are outdated?

it’s type 2 rather than 3

Kakashi starting move would be uncovering his Sharingan which would give him a massive advantage against Obi in terms of skill due to the Sharingan’s analytical prediction and give him an amp in reactions.

He would then sunshin over and knockout Obi. If that don’t work he would chidori and one shot

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

If Obi-Wan can't handle the Type 3 Madness then he's just gonna kill himself.

 

[DavidTPPM]

If Obi-Wan can't handle the Type 3 Madness then he's just gonna kill himself.

The madness is kinda a result of fear manip and can be overcome through willpower so I doubt Obi-Wan is killing himself ngl

 

[Nonynho]

Let's not use poor Obi's profile, it is mad outdated ;-;

Maybe Yoda's which i updated or Vader's that @Phsccarvalho put a lot of work onto?

 

[Foriaa]

Part 1 Kakashi is used

His keys for 1 and 2 are combined, is everything above 7-b restricted?

 

[Phsccarvalho]

Sharingan’s analytical prediction and give him an amp in reactions.

Obi-Wan has the same thing.

He would then sunshin over and knockout Obi. If that don’t work he would chidori and one shot

I don't know what Sunshin is, but Chidori can be absorbed by the lightsaber.

Let's not use poor Obi's profile, it is mad outdated ;-;

Maybe Yoda's which i updated or Vader's that @Phsccarvalho put a lot of work onto?

Not exactly outdated in terms of P&A, but it has small, unlisted individual things that would make a difference in a matchup like this, such as resistance to fear.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

Either way, they have Fear Hax, so it kind of breaks the vsthread.

 

[Foriaa]

I don't know what Sunshin is, but Chidori can be absorbed by the lightsaber.

Shunshin is a blitz amp that every shinobi has.

Just wanted to say that Kakashi has 2 layers of mind hax with MS, 1 with 3T.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

Just wanted to say that Kakashi has 2 layers of mind hax with MS, 1 with 3T.

And why isn't it listed in the profile?

 

[Foriaa]

And why isn't it listed in the profile?

It's listed on the verse page

Naruto (Verse)

For detailed information about the series, see the Naruto Wiki The plot follows Naruto Uzumaki, a young ninja who desires recognition from his peers and aspires to become the Hokage, the village's chief. Naruto is assigned, alongside his rival Sasuke Uchiha and a teenage crush Sakura Haruno, to...

vsbattles.fandom.com

• Genjutsu and Genjutsu Resistance potency can be found here.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

So there's no reason for the match to continue.

 

[Foriaa]

Kakashi doesn't start with genjutsu, so it's not an instant stomp.

 

[DavidTPPM]

Either way, they have Fear Hax, so it kind of breaks the vsthread.

Does Obi-Wan not have any good willpower feats for him to handle a little fear?

 

[Doggo]

His keys for 1 and 2 are combined, is everything above 7-b restricted?

I will keep it unless it makes the fight a stomp. It's just with one attack that requires him to get close against a guy with a sword that dura negs him

Kakashi doesn't start with genjutsu, so it's not an instant stomp.

I also want to point out, precog would alert Kenobi about Genjutsu and Kamui

 

[Foriaa]

I also want to point out, precog would alert Kenobi about Genjutsu and Kamui

What would precog do here?

 

[AlternativePrinciple]

I also want to point out, precog would alert Kenobi about Genjutsu and Kamui

Kakashi has better precog with sharingan

And why isn't it listed in the profile?

it’s on the verse page and his profile is very outdated

 

[Phsccarvalho]

Kakashi has better precog with sharingan

From what I've seen, the Sharingan is listed as Analytical Prediction. Double Vision, as used by the Jedi, is seeing the literal future.

Nothing listed under the Sharingan's Analytical Prediction is something that Double Vision can't do by seeing the literal future.

it’s on the verse page and his profile is very outdated

That's why I said the match could honestly be closed.

 

[AlternativePrinciple]

From what I've seen, the Sharingan is listed as Analytical Prediction. Double Vision, as used by the Jedi, is seeing the literal future.

Nothing listed under the Sharingan's Analytical Prediction is something that Double Vision can't do by seeing the literal future.

Sharingan also shows visual images of its opponents next move, akin to future sight. Additional sharingan is also able to

• Analytical Prediction (Users can clearly anticipate their opponent's next moves and flawlessly counter them. A fully matured Sharingan can even see a clear visual image of the opponent's next moves, allowing for efficient evasion and counterattacks without any wasted movements. Even at early stages such as one Tomoe, this predictive capacity was sufficient to allow the user to evade dense projectile barrage, such as a rain of iron ball bearings or danmaku of kunais.

The sharingan is also able to do this on hundreds/thousand of people at the same time

That's why I said the match could honestly be closed.

Mayhaps

 

[DavidTPPM]

What actual feats does Force precog have? Sharingan let's you outmanouver people so fast you couldn't previously even track them thanks to how it shows the next move of the opponent. It's perception boost is so good it let's you control techniques that would normally pretty much blitz the user even tho shunshin doesn't do that despite blitzing the opponent. With even the lower level sharingan allowing you to flawlessly read and outmanouver the movements of extremely skilled fighters and large quantities of danmaku.

I'm a very casual SW fan but I don't remember anything even close to this level of precog from the Force in the movies. Am I forgetting something from the movies or is there some extra stuff on this in the TV shows?

 

[Phsccarvalho]

Sharingan also shows visual images of its opponents next move, akin to future sight. Additional sharingan is also able to

• Analytical Prediction (Users can clearly anticipate their opponent's next moves and flawlessly counter them. A fully matured Sharingan can even see a clear visual image of the opponent's next moves, allowing for efficient evasion and counterattacks without any wasted movements. Even at early stages such as one Tomoe, this predictive capacity was sufficient to allow the user to evade dense projectile barrage, such as a rain of iron ball bearings or danmaku of kunais.

The sharingan is also able to do this on hundreds/thousand of people at the same time

And Double Vision literally allows the Jedi to see the future. Not at all, it's really something that seeing the future can't do.

What actual feats does Force precog have?

Spoiler

He'd taken barely five steps when his peripheral vision spotted the men in the two vehicles farthest from each other slide blasters from their holsters. He took one more step, settling his mind and body into combat awareness ... ...
Double vision: the Force showing him the present overlaid with a glimpse of a moment into the future-two blaster bolts coming from the drivers of the two vehicles-the first scoring into his upper chest, the second into his lower side-
With a snap-hiss his lightsaber blade blazed into existence-
He swung the blue blade against the first bolt, then the second, and paused.
For perhaps two seconds no one moved. Then, as if on signal, the other seven snatched their blasters from their holsters and opened fire-
Double vision: blaster bolts coming at torso, at side, at head, at side-the Force speeding his perception, slowing down time-moving his hands in a blur-no longer deflecting bolts away, but sending them back to their points of origin-
- Thrawn: Alliances

Double vision: bolt coming at right shoulder-
He looked at the three backups, swinging their blasters toward him. He brought up his left hand, catching the bolt on his palm, feeling a brief rise in heat as the energy expended itself against the armored glove.
Double vision: bolts coming at chest, at helmet-
He reached out to the Force, tweaking the attackers' blasters a couple of degrees to the sides, just far enough to throw off their aim. Probably they never even realized what had happened. He strode toward them, feeling his cloak billowing behind him.
- Thrawn: Alliances

The recitation ended. "Lord Vader, the Chimaera awaits your guidance," Thrawn said.
That one, at least, was new. Stretching out to the Force, Vader keyed the hyperdrive.
Double vision: a cometary object approaching the starboard bow-
Not seriously dangerous, but a tweak of the course heading avoided any potential trouble. Ahead, he sensed the boundary of the Mokivj system as the Chimaera once more entered interstellar space.
Double vision: a large, star-sized object above the ship
Again, a small touch on the drive avoided the risk of collision. Two more stars flashed past, without triggering any warning.
Double vision: the ship angling to portside-
The correct direction to take them to the Grysk base?
Vader let his mind sink deeper into the Force, seeking confirmation.
Double vision: the ship angling to portside-
He touched the controls again, realigning the Chimaera onto the vector in his vision.
He'd never done this before. But it seemed he could indeed do it.
Trust me, Thrawn had again pleaded with him. Have I ever failed you?
Double vision: a white dwarf star directly ahead-
Once again, he adjusted course, and settled in for the long journey ahead.
- Thrawn: Alliances

Basically, they are in a super complicated area of the galaxy to navigate, where they could easily collide with random stars or planets, so Double Vision is being used to see future objects that the ship will hit and then manually adjust the course.

As I said, it's exactly about seeing the literal future.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

I'm a very casual SW fan but I don't remember anything even close to this level of precog from the Force in the movies. Am I forgetting something from the movies or is there some extra stuff on this in the TV shows?

Even if you weren't a casual fan, you wouldn't remember.

They basically ignore precognition in Star Wars media. Like, this stuff is only mentioned very quickly in Episode 1.

Otherwise, this power is only mentioned in guides and encyclopedias. Edit: And sometimes in some novels.

The only place we see the POV of this is in the novel Thrawn: Alliances, where the author basically decided to really explain more about this power and show what the POV is like.

 

[DavidTPPM]

And Double Vision literally allows the Jedi to see the future. Not at all, it's really something that seeing the future can't do.

Spoiler

Basically, they are in a super complicated area of the galaxy to navigate, where they could easily collide with random stars or planets, so Double Vision is being used to see future objects that the ship will hit and then manually adjust the course.

As I said, it's exactly about seeing the literal future.

Okay so from what I'm understanding "double vision" is an extremely niche thing only mentioned in a single novel where Obi-Wan doesn't even appear, and does shit we've never seen in the main 9 movies or any of the live action and animated TV series… with it being so niche and basically nonexistent that it's not even mentioned in the Force profile…?

Am I understanding correctly that this is what you're using to claim all force users have future sight we have never seen in the actual source material? Or am I missing something?

 

[AlternativePrinciple]

And Double Vision literally allows the Jedi to see the future. Not at all, it's really something that seeing the future can't do.

Spoiler

Basically, they are in a super complicated area of the galaxy to navigate, where they could easily collide with random stars or planets, so Double Vision is being used to see future objects that the ship will hit and then manually adjust the course.

As I said, it's exactly about seeing the literal future.

Just cuz it’s sees the future of smth doesn’t make it inherently better than other forms of predictions ability. DV is what stage three sharingan is without all the other flawless counters, danmaku predictions and the range that sharingan has.

DV on paper is just not as capable as sharingan in terms of sheer feats and prediction prowess

 

[Phsccarvalho]

Okay so from what I'm understanding "double vision" is an extremely niche thing only mentioned in a single novel where Obi-Wan doesn't even appear, and does shit we've never seen in the main 9 movies or any of the live action and animated TV series… with it being so niche and basically nonexistent that it's not even mentioned in the Force profile…?

Am I understanding correctly that this is what you're using to claim all force users have future sight we have never seen in the actual source material? Or am I missing something?

Jedi don't have a specific name for their precognition of recent events; in fact, the verse doesn't give a single, universal name for this power. Double vision is basically how Vader refers to the power. In the same novel, a character named Thrawn says that his race calls the precognition of Force-sensitive individuals "third sight." These are basically different names for the same power: the precognition of Force-sensitive individuals. I used the novel Thrawn: Alliances because the author decided to give a very detailed POV explanation of the use of this power. Like, literally every fight Vader has has a detailed precognition note.

Other novels mention it only in a simpler way. For example, in the novel Master & Apprentice. During a duel, Obi-Wan's precognition is only briefly described as: through the Force, Obi-Wan "saw the trajectory of each shot before it happened."

Just check out the Imgur page on Force Manipulation.

DV on paper is just not as capable as sharingan in terms of sheer feats and prediction prowess

DV was used by Force-sensitive children to guide spacecraft in hyperspace to avoid planets and stars by traveling at faster-than-light speeds. It has a very long range.

 

[DavidTPPM]

Jedi don't have a specific name for their precognition of recent events; in fact, the verse doesn't give a single, universal name for this power. Double vision is basically how Vader refers to the power. In the same novel, a character named Thrawn says that his race calls the precognition of Force-sensitive individuals "third sight." These are basically different names for the same power: the precognition of Force-sensitive individuals. I used the novel Thrawn: Alliances because the author decided to give a very detailed POV explanation of the use of this power. Like, literally every fight Vader has has a detailed precognition note.

Other novels mention it only in a simpler way. For example, in the novel Master & Apprentice. During a duel, Obi-Wan's precognition is only briefly described as: through the Force, Obi-Wan "saw the trajectory of each shot before it happened."

Just check out the Imgur page on Force Manipulation.

The problem is the actual movies only ever show Jedi having very cryptic uncontrollable visions that are nowhere near combat applicable, and the Force Manip page links a scan saying the same.

The problem is that if this were to work like a buffed up sharingan in that it shows the user the future overlaid with the present at all times then a LOT of events in the actual mainline story would be impossible. Anakin getting cut in half by Obi-Wan? Doesn't happen because Anakin just sees the future. Snoke getting cut in half by Rey? Same thing. Windu getting his hand cut by Palpatine? Same thing. Maul getting sliced in half by Obi-Wan? Same thing. Vader betraying Palpatine at the last moment? Again, same thing.

So not only are you proposing a level of precog that's nowhere to be seen anywhere in the actual mainline movies and TV shows, it actively makes many core plot points impossible to happen. And that's just thinking about core plot points, not even looking into individual mid-fight inconsistencies.

If this was just good analytical prediction then there wouldn't be a problem since that's susceptible to the unknown, but with straight up future sight? Naah

 

[Phsccarvalho]

The problem is the actual movies only ever show Jedi having very cryptic uncontrollable visions that are nowhere near combat applicable, and the Force Manip page links a scan saying the same.

This is Force Vision, a completely different power with a different Imgur album. Like, there's a whole Imgur album with general statements about Force sensitives having precognition. I literally said that Episode 1 has Qui-Gon saying it's a Jedi trait.

You didn't even check the right album.

The problem is that if this were to work like a buffed up sharingan in that it shows the user the future overlaid with the present at all times then a LOT of events in the actual mainline story would be impossible. Anakin getting cut in half by Obi-Wan? Doesn't happen because Anakin just sees the future. Snoke getting cut in half by Rey? Same thing. Windu getting his hand cut by Palpatine? Same thing. Maul getting sliced in half by Obi-Wan? Same thing. Vader betraying Palpatine at the last moment? Again, same thing.

It's simply PIS, we literally have a page for it.

We don't remove powers of attorney because of PIS (Property Transfer Information) or inconsistencies. It's literally written that we don't do that.

So not only are you proposing a level of precog that's nowhere to be seen anywhere in the actual mainline movies and TV shows, it actively makes many core plot points impossible to happen. And that's just thinking about core plot points, not even looking into individual mid-fight inconsistencies.

If this was just good analytical prediction then there wouldn't be a problem since that's susceptible to the unknown, but with straight up future sight? Naah

I'm not "proposing" it; it's literally accepted on the pages through a CRT. There are dozens of statements and deeds, including one I literally gave you an example from an Obi-Wan novel and Vader.

If you disagree, submit a CRT to remove it.

 

[Foriaa]

Voting Kakashi for now

 

[Phsccarvalho]

Voting Kakashi for now

Dude, that's a stomp because of the fear/Madness Hax.

 

[DavidTPPM]

This is Force Vision, a completely different power with a different Imgur album. Like, there's a whole Imgur album with general statements about Force sensitives having precognition. I literally said that Episode 1 has Qui-Gon saying it's a Jedi trait.

You didn't even check the right album.

If you want me to check a specific album send me the link lol.

And this just says it's a Jedi trait to see things before they happen in a way that makes it seem Anakin has high reflex. That's not comparable to literally see entire sequences in the future.

It's simply PIS, we literally have a page for it.

No it's not PIS. It's a secondary source coming up with abilities that didn't exist in the actual main story itself and accidentally contradicting the living crap out of it.

We don't remove powers of attorney because of PIS (Property Transfer Information) or inconsistencies. It's literally written that we don't do that.

You do realize the inconsistency that shouldn't be accepted here is the existence of such a potent future sight, right?

We're comparing countless character/story defining moments and every single time a character has been surprised mid fight with a randomass novel making up crazy stuff.

I'm not "proposing" it; it's literally accepted on the pages through a CRT. There are dozens of statements and deeds, including one I literally gave you an example from an Obi-Wan novel and Vader. If you disagree, submit a CRT to remove it.

I'm not saying Jedi don't have any sort of precog. I'm telling you they don't have this level of precog where they see the future several moves ahead of what's happening because it's inconsistent and contradicts the actual movies.

Dude, that's a stomp because of the fear/Madness Hax.

Are you saying this because you think it's true or because you want it to be true? I already told you twice the madness/fear can and literally was overcome through willpower so unless Obi-Wans willpower is weaker than kid Narutos and kid Sasukes he should be fine - which you ignored.

And I doubt Obi-Wan doesn't have a strong willpower given a strong mind is literally a necessity to not get mind controlled in SW

 

[Phsccarvalho]

And this just says it's a Jedi trait to see things before they happen in a way that makes it seem Anakin has high reflex. That's not comparable to literally see entire sequences in the future.

It's literally the same thing. Because if someone can see the future, they'll obviously see what's going to happen.

No it's not PIS. It's a secondary source coming up with abilities that didn't exist in the actual main story itself and accidentally contradicting the living crap out of it.

They are all primary sources. Unless you want to say that Star Wars Episode 1 is a secondary source, or that a novel is a secondary source.

You do realize the inconsistency that shouldn't be accepted here is the existence of such a potent future sight, right?

No, it's not. It's literally a declared power in all types of Star Wars media. Movies, series, books, encyclopedias, guides, etc.

I'm not saying Jedi don't have any sort of precog. I'm telling you they don't have this level of precog where they see the future several moves ahead of what's happening because it's inconsistent and contradicts the actual movies.

It's just PIS. We didn't remove it for that reason.

Are you saying this because you think it's true or because you want it to be true? I already told you twice the madness/fear can and literally was overcome through willpower so unless Obi-Wans willpower is weaker than kid Narutos and kid Sasukes he should be fine - which you ignored.

And I doubt Obi-Wan doesn't have a strong willpower given a strong mind is literally a necessity to not get mind controlled in SW

The problem is that, from what I know, in Naruto it's all like this:

• Fear Manipulation, Empathic Manipulation, Madness Manipulation (Type 2), Status Effect Inducement & Aura (Overwhelming, Fear-inducing, Explosive & Materialized) (High level Shinobi with vast and/or powerful chakra have consistently shown the ability to produce an aura. This aura, when emitted by someone of around Kage level strength or above, was shown to have a physical effect powerful enough to violently damage the user's surroundings. When the user's aura is injected with bloodlust or malice, it has been consistently shown to cause a variety harmful effects such as intense fear, paralysis, illusions, suicidal urges, unconsciousness, and more.)

Yes, Obi-Wan, like other Jedi, has a strong mind, but how can he overcome that combination of powers?
Supernatural Willpower page:

Characters with this ability may be able to resist enormous amounts of pain, act even when unconscious or well beyond what they should be able to endure, resist possession and mind control, affect their environment, or even go against natural phenomena, such as death or the limits imposed by reality.

It doesn't mention here that having this makes you resistant to fear, empathy, and madness or Status Effect Inducement

-
Madness is okay, since the Madness page mentions that sufficient mental resistance solves it. But Empathic doesn't say anything about that. Regarding Fear, the Shinobi type would be Mystic, right? So mental resistance wouldn't work. And on the page about fear, it says that fear "can occasionally" be portrayed as a power that can be overcome with willpower. Since "can occasionally" is used, it's not a standard. Can Naruto's fear be resolved with willpower alone?

-

Even if we consider that Willpower and Mind Resistance solve all of this, the issue of Empathic and Status Effect is still missing.

Unless I can make the Jedi Mind Trick have empathic manipulation.

 

[DavidTPPM]

It's literally the same thing. Because if someone can see the future, they'll obviously see what's going to happen.

You completely missed the point.
Having precog on the level of slightly faster reflexes is incomparable to seeing entire sequences ahead in magnitude.

Yes both are future sight but the magnitude to which they can see is vastly different.

They are all primary sources. Unless you want to say that Star Wars Episode 1 is a secondary source, or that a novel is a secondary source.

The SW1 movie absolutely does not show Jedi can just spam future sight that shows them multiple steps ahead throughout a fight.
And the novel is a secondary source.

No, it's not. It's literally a declared power in all types of Star Wars media. Movies, series, books, encyclopedias, guides, etc.

I'm genuinely curious whether you're purposely strawmanning me or genuinely don't understand what I'm saying.

It's just PIS. We didn't remove it for that reason.

It's not. It's a secondary source making up inconsistent bullshit. Which like you yourself pointed out, shouldn't even be accepted in any way. (speaking about the future sight magnitude not the existence of a precog)

The problem is that, from what I know, in Naruto it's all like this:

Yes, Obi-Wan, like other Jedi, has a strong mind, but how can he overcome that combination of powers?

Wdym by combination of powers?
Shinobi have an aura that induces fear into the surrounding people and that fear then makes people want to kill themselves, basically driving them crazy.

Everything listed there is just the results of the fear itself. It's not like it's 5 separate hax it's generally 1 ability - feat inducement, that has multiple results/effects.

Supernatural Willpower page:

It doesn't mention here that having this makes you resistant to fear, empathy, and madness or Status Effect Inducement

The fear manipulation page:

Depending on the user and medium, Fear Manipulation can occasionally be depicted as a power which can be overcome with bravery, willpower and courage.

Can Naruto's fear be resolved with willpower alone?

Man… (or woman, idc)

The madness is kinda a result of fear manip and can be overcome through willpower so I doubt Obi-Wan is killing himself ngl

Does Obi-Wan not have any good willpower feats for him to handle a little fear?

I already told you twice the madness/fear can and literally was overcome through willpower

3x already.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

You completely missed the point.
Having precog on the level of slightly faster reflexes is incomparable to seeing entire sequences ahead in magnitude.

Yes both are future sight but the magnitude to which they can see is vastly different.

They are both the same thing, seeing the future. The two of you will see what happens, whether it's someone attacking you, shooting at you, etc.

The SW1 movie absolutely does not show Jedi can just spam future sight that shows them multiple steps ahead throughout a fight.
And the novel is a secondary source.

Qui-Gon literally talks about precognition at the beginning of the movie. Star Wars Rebels has the same statement regarding Ezra.

Novels aren't secondary sources—where did you get that idea? They're a primary source, just like movies and TV shows. They'd only be secondary if they were adaptations, like novels based on movies. In the case of Thrawn: Alliances, it tells an original story set in the universe

I'm genuinely curious whether you're purposely strawmanning me or genuinely don't understand what I'm saying.

You're the one who doesn't understand.

It's not. It's a secondary source making up inconsistent bullshit. Which like you yourself pointed out, shouldn't even be accepted in any way. (speaking about the future sight magnitude not the existence of a precog)

This isn't a secondary source; you're just making things up based on nothing. All Star Wars media (films, series, novels) have equal importance.

I mentioned that Star Wars is a universe that doesn't usually show the POV of Force Sensitives' precognition. They acknowledge its existence in all media, but they don't delve too deeply into detailing exactly what that POV is like. The media that does this is Thrawn: Alliances, since precognition is one of the key points of the narrative.

Wdym by combination of powers?
Shinobi have an aura that induces fear into the surrounding people and that fear then makes people want to kill themselves, basically driving them crazy.

Everything listed there is just the results of the fear itself. It's not like it's 5 separate hax it's generally 1 ability - feat inducement, that has multiple results/effects.

Based on the justification, this seems to be treated as different effects caused by the aura, and not the fear that causes all of this.

3x already.

I still think it wouldn't be enough. Because I think resisting a "common fear" is very different from "a fear so great that it makes you want to kill yourself, see illusions and become unconscious."

But if nobody has a problem, okay.

 

[Doggo]

calling the novels secondary media is hilarious ngl

Anyway, since its...fear hax gg, then ig this thread it dead lol

 

[TegamiBachi25]

calling the novels secondary media is hilarious ngl

Anyway, since its...fear hax gg, then ig this thread it dead lol

I guess by extension Naruto novels are secondary non canon media. We need a CRT to remove them.

 

[DavidTPPM]

They are both the same thing, seeing the future. The two of you will see what happens, whether it's someone attacking you, shooting at you, etc.

Yeah bro seeing 10 hours into the future and 1 picosecond into the future are totally the same thing .

Qui-Gon literally talks about precognition at the beginning of the movie. Star Wars Rebels has the same statement regarding Ezra.

Why do you keep strawmanning me this bad? I verbatim told you I'm not denying precog but the magnitude which you're trying to imply.

I literally verbally acknowledged and agreed that they have precog like 5x already and specifically explained that I'm denying the magnitude not the ability. Are you really so desperate you have to make up a version of my argument that doesn't exist?

Novels aren't secondary sources—where did you get that idea? They're a primary source, just like movies and TV shows. They'd only be secondary if they were adaptations, like novels based on movies. In the case of Thrawn: Alliances, it tells an original story set in the universe

A novel side story for movies is a secondary source. It can be primary canon and still be secondary source.


The point is that regardless of what kind of canon it is, any secondary source is very susceptible to contradictions because it's written by different authors and goes under less supervision than a multi million dollar movie. It's canonicity doesn't matter because that's not what I'm arguing against.

But given how I also made it clear I'm not arguing against precog and you still kept pretending I am you're probably going to twist this too.

You're the one who doesn't understand.

You're telling me you understand MY argument better than me? Yeah brochacho I'm sure you do

This isn't a secondary source; you're just making things up based on nothing.

A novel side story for a movie franchise is a secondary source regardless of how canon it is. And again I never doubted it's canonicity so stop strawmanning me.

Based on the justification, this seems to be treated as different effects caused by the aura, and not the fear that causes all of this.

No it's literally just the fear causing all this. I already told you that characters like 12 year old Naruto and 12 year old Sasuke can overcome this purely through willpower and courage.

I still think it wouldn't be enough. Because I think resisting a "common fear" is very different from "a fear so great that it makes you want to kill yourself, see illusions and become unconscious."

I mean sure, I just didn't expect Obi-Wan to be such a bum he can't even handle what prepubescent kids can handle, given how important it is to have a strong mind in SW

I guess by extension Naruto novels are secondary non canon media. We need a CRT to remove them.

Fun fact, the Boruto Movie novelization doesn't provide contradictions even 1/10 as bad as this and that was enough to consider it barely as tertiary canon on the wiki.

But I guess for star wars we can ignore 25+ hours of main story movies being contradicted in favor of a random novel just because it tickles the pickle of powerscalers.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

Yeah bro seeing 10 hours into the future and 1 picosecond into the future are totally the same thing .

And tell me where I said that Jedi see 10 hours into the future or anything like that? They see recent time, maybe a few seconds at a time, but I never said hours. Even within the examples I showed, they don't give examples of hours in the future.

Their type of precognition, which allows them to see hours or weeks into the future, is Force Vision, but it is not applied to combat.

A novel side story for movies is a secondary source. It can be primary canon and still be secondary source.


The point is that regardless of what kind of canon it is, any secondary source is very susceptible to contradictions because it's written by different authors and goes under less supervision than a multi million dollar movie. It's canonicity doesn't matter because that's not what I'm arguing against.

But given how I also made it clear I'm not arguing against precog and you still kept pretending I am you're probably going to twist this too.

It's not a secondary source. You really don't understand that in Star Wars all media have exactly the same narrative importance? None has more weight than the others. Half of Star Wars is made up of novels.

Give me a single source that shows novels are treated as a secondary source, or stop making up nonsense out of your own head.

"any secondary source is very susceptible to contradictions because it's written by different authors"

Star Wars isn't a manga where a single author writes the script. Every media—whether it's movies, TV series, video games, etc.—has different teams and screenwriters. Even the movies and the original trilogy were all made by different directors and screenwriters. The argument you're using only applies to manga. Show me a single source on VSBattle where this applies to media other than manga.

You're telling me you understand MY argument better than me? Yeah brochacho I'm sure you do

Yes

A novel side story for a movie franchise is a secondary source regardless of how canon it is.

That's not true.

No it's literally just the fear causing all this. I already told you that characters like 12 year old Naruto and 12 year old Sasuke can overcome this purely through willpower and courage.
I mean sure, I just didn't expect Obi-Wan to be such a bum he can't even handle what prepubescent kids can handle, given how important it is to have a strong mind in SW

Different works and different characters? Why are you citing them being teenagers as an argument?

"If even teenagers can resist, Obi-Wan should resist."

So you mean Obi-Wan should resist anything they resist? That doesn't even make sense.

Fun fact, the Boruto Movie novelization doesn't provide contradictions even 1/10 as bad as this and that was enough to consider it barely as tertiary canon on the wiki.

Because Naruto is a manga, belonging to a single individual, the author, in this case Kishimoto. When copyright belongs to a single individual, anything not written by him is secondary, because he is not the owner of the work.

But this does not apply when works belong to a company itself. When that is the case, everything produced by the company for the franchise is primary source.

You mentioned that this novel is considered tertiary canon, right? Let's take a look at what the wiki classifies as tertiary canon.

In addition a tertiary canon will be allowed. The tertiary canon consists of official adaptations not overseen by the author

This doesn't exist for Star Wars because there is no longer "The author of Star Wars," since the IP itself belonged to a company. And everything is produced by companies that Disney owns or oversees. Nothing is unsupervised.