Re-looking at Re Zero Ap Ratings

[Celestial_Pegasus]

I want to address something important, which is the fact that characters aren't constantly on the level the profiles currently suggest.

Flow Method​

In Re Zero superhuman physical abilities are the result of The Flow Method, it is also possible to enter the same state as using this method due to mental or physical urgency (Arc 7, Chapter 99), this explains seemingly ridiculous stuff like Subaru consistently reacting to superhuman characters, he has a gate and is always in danger. Sphinx who started training as a martial artist from square 1, learned the Flow Method (Arc 8, Chapter 59), proving this is something any martial artist/warriors would learn. It's stated warriors use mana within their body to strengthen themselves, the key thing is its said this ability, The Flow Method is done consciously (Arc 7, Chapter 98).

Cecilus says he would die if he took 900 hits in a defenseless state (Arc 9, Chapter 5), obviously in this context meaning not amping himself via Flow Method. Reinhard is as strong as he is due to his excess mana circulation constitution which made him able to use the Flow Method from birth, and it is normal for him to be in a constantly enhanced state (Arc 9, Chapter 14), though honestly the Wrath IF might contradict this with Emilia stabbing him, but that was written years ago, author probably changed their mind. So Reinhard is the exception really.

Superhuman feats are the result of The Flow Method, and the characters while in danger can amp themselves, but otherwise its something everyone learns and has to activated consciously.

Characters like Todd are currently rated as 7-B based on sneak attacks. When Todd killed Rowan, he turned people into humans bombs blowing up the bar, and then when everyone tried escaping through the back door not expecting anyone there, he crushed Rowan's head (Arc 7, Chapter 17). Rowan clearly didn't expect this attack, and wasn't actively amping himself which is why a 9-B character (Todd), can kill a 7-B character (Rowan), proving the point that unless the characters actively amp themselves, they aren't constantly superhuman.

Al​

Al's strength is stated to be moderate, weaker than Ram and even Heinkel (Arc 9, Chapter 54). Al is stated to not be a superhuman, he is an ordinary person who can die from falling from a distance of 15m (Arc 8, Chapter 39).

The fight against the pigman where Al used his ability to turn back time, was described as Al winning by piling up a hundred lucky hits (Arc 9, Chapter 21). He defeated Garfiel by overthrowing his vital points (Arc 9, Chapter 20). His strategy against Garfiel was hitting him in the nose while he was in the middle of attacking (Arc 9, Chapter 12), and blowing him up from the inside (Arc 9, Chapter 12).

When he uses his magic, he is able to block attacks from Emilia (Arc 9, Chapter 25), and Rem (Arc 9, Chapter 40), and Gaston, and uses magic forming stone gauntlets to punch Gaston away (Arc 9, Chapter 21).

In short Al doesn't scale to characters like Emilia physically, only with magic (it's possible I missed some feat of this, but it would contradict the fact Al is suppose to be a normal guy who isn't on the level of anyone relevant), and he beats characters like Garfiel due to foreknowledge and honestly catching them offguard and hitting them in vital areas.

Conclusion​

The superhuman feats of the cast is something that's done consciously, as such if they don't perceive a threat to themselves, they can be caught off guard, and hurt/killed. The question is how to list this on the profiles.

For example, 10-B, 7-B via Flow Method, Varies, normally 7-B via Flow Method? Looking for opinions here.

 

[MrTayman616]

Overall, this seems fine imo.

Cecilus says he would die if he took 900 hits in a defenseless state (Arc 9, Chapter 5), obviously in this context meaning not amping himself via Flow Method

(Tbh, i actually doubt he's talking about "if i was in a defenseless state" :d, not the topic of today though)

10-B, 7-B via Flow Method

This should be fine.

 

[VortechsTG]

While the general premise of this thread is correct, as Zabazab said, this is just not how energy systems that work similarly are normally indexed. I agree with downgrading Todd and Al's physical stats, but I am worried about what applying this verse-wide will entail. With the way amps are treated on this wiki, Re:Zero characters would speed blitz almost any speed-equalized matchup by nature of having an amp from human level to sub-relativistic. And of course there will be the usual goobers who will intentionally misinterpret this rating, but what can you do?

I also think it's a bit questionable to suggest that Al creating gauntlets around his fists to hit Gaston with counts as an example of his magic having greater AP than his physical stats, but Gaston is not that strong to begin with, so unless I've forgotten some other moment, I don't think this changes anything.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

One of main issues really is that this "weakness" is something which can and has been abused. Though honestly 2 of the prime abusers are Todd who has layered stealth which is why he can catch people off guard, and Al who literally rewinds time to know exactly how things play out. Anyone of decent skill has all kinds of senses to react to danger and what not, so how practical would it be to catch say Priscilla off guard in like a vs match setting? Not very imo.

But we still have to be accurate here.

I don't think you will have to worry about speed too much once I get done with it

 

[MrTayman616]

Re:Zero characters would speed blitz almost any speed-equalized matchup by nature of having an amp from human level to sub-relativistic

Tbh, none of those characters are even close to sub rel.

You can just make the characters start in the flow state in vs battles, so it doesn't change much and just makes it more accurate.

 

[VortechsTG]

One of main issues really is that this "weakness" is something which can and has been abused. Though honestly 2 of the prime abusers are Todd who has layered stealth which is why he can catch people off guard, and Al who literally rewinds time to know exactly how things play out. Anyone of decent skill has all kinds of senses to react to danger and what not, so how practical would it be to catch say Priscilla off guard in like a vs match setting? Not very imo.

But we still have to be accurate here.

Todd is one thing. That's stealth, preparation, and, in this specific case, Rowan being absolutely wasted. When has Al actually done anything that can't be adequately explained by his magic being stronger than his physical stats or by some other mechanism like using Garfiel's own momentum against him? The Gaston example could be explained by him catching him off guard, but from what we know so far, they scale similarly anyway and are both seperate from the majority of the verse.

I don't think you will have to worry about speed too much once I get done with it

Even if they're downgraded to supersonic and MHS as they should be that would still be a problem.

 

[VortechsTG]

Tbh, none of those characters are even close to sub rel.

The top tiers are, but, yeah, many are definitely inflated.

You can just make the characters start in the flow state in vs battles, so it doesn't change much and just makes it more accurate.

I don't really see amps treated like that normally but they could be.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Todd is one thing. That's stealth, preparation, and, in this specific case, Rowan being absolutely wasted. When has Al actually done anything that can't be adequately explained by his magic being stronger than his physical stats or by some other mechanism like using Garfiel's own momentum against him? The Gaston example could be explained by him catching him off guard, but from what we know so far, they scale similarly anyway and are both seperate from the majority of the verse.

Gaston will scale to mid tiers, Al thought Heinkel wouldn't be considered as fighting strength against him, though we all know Heinkel has his mental issues against strong people, so i don't actually think he is stronger, relative though? Yes.

Al as said before uses precog, and getting lucky hits, so it says more about his lack of scaling, than this actual topic really, that being the only one is constantly amped is Reinhard, so it's not accurate to have a plain rating for the characters.

 

[Zabazab]

This looks good yeah. Maybe it'll even encourage indexing this quirk of physical-enhancement power systems. I can restructure Aldebaran's statistics ratings in his CRT to account for this.

 

[Apex_Predator_GX]

OP looks fine to me.

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

neutral on this, i honestly prefer the current one but i wouldnt mind an amped one for accuracy either (although yeah the matchups are gonna be impossible from now on i suppose)

 

[Zanesucksatlife]

Reading.
Neutral

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Bump.

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

Bump.

call in other mods?

 

[Phsccarvalho]

A case similar to Star Wars with "Force Amplification"

Are there superhuman characters (humans, etc.) who don't use the Flow Method? Because if there are, wouldn't "unknown" be better? I mean, I've seen little of the Re:Zero anime, but it doesn't seem to have a visual indication of the use of the "Flow Method" (like in Star Wars), so if there are characters who are superhuman without using it, I think "unknown" would be better.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

The Flow method is what all "humans" use to achieve superhuman feats, only exception to this are dragons, they are just naturally powerful. There are no real visual indications of it being used, Flow Method wasn't introduced until arc 5, and got massively explained in arc 7-8. But it's treated as a natural thing martial artist learn to do, or even normal humans can do in life threatening situations ie adrenaline, this is Re Zero's version.

Honestly at this point though, I am reconsidering whether this change should even be done, we can probably just do something like mention under weakness that the characters if taken off guard can be killed by stuff which would normally do no damage to them, and then adjust feats which happened as a result such as Todd killing Rowan.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

The Flow method is what all "humans" used to achieve superhuman human feats, only exception to this are dragons, they are just naturally powerful.

Honestly at this point though, I am reconsidering whether this change should even be done, we can probably just do something like mention under weakness that the characters if taken off guard can be killed by stuff which would normally do no damage to them.

Perhaps you'd like to tag @LephyrTheRevanchist? He participated in my Star Wars CRT (which is currently closed for other reasons) which is somewhat similar to the Re:Zero case (not entirely, because humans can be superhuman without using the Force)

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

@LephyrTheRevanchist Can I get your opinion here?

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Perhaps you'd like to tag @LephyrTheRevanchist? He participated in my Star Wars CRT (which is currently closed for other reasons) which is somewhat similar to the Re:Zero case (not entirely, because humans can be superhuman without using the Force)

I do not know of this verse. I know of SW very intimately (being my favorite verse of all time alongside Pkmn). Not the same case

 

[Apeironaxim]

Bump, this honestly seems pretty notable to hash out. I personally think it's worthy to index, as even if the times it would come up are rare in a vsmatch, they can happen, and it would be meaningful to illustrate that. For example any character who can drain or nullify mana, or even a protracted battle that sees the character running out of mana, as the Flow Method seems to rely on it. If the difference is meaningful and can be stark, I think it makes sense to index it.

This of course goes beyond just a vsthread thing, but also as said earlier in the thread it really is also an accuracy thing. It's explained and acknowledged to be a conscious mechanic where someone has to amp themselves to achieve a rating. That seems pretty important to index

 

[Apeironaxim]

Bump

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

@Reiner04 @Oblivion_Of_The_Endless @Elizhaa

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

Looks fine.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Last I remember we were going with 10-B, 7-B via Flow Method, so I suppose you agree with that?

 

[Random-Helper323]

Listing it as a weakness might be safer than listing it as an amp. While a couple verses have this weakness, in Re:Zero's case it's been specifically pointed out and used in the story. It's not likely to come up in vs threads though, since SBA has them start off aware of each other.

 

[Apeironaxim]

Last I remember we were going with 10-B, 7-B via Flow Method, so I suppose you agree with that?

I imagine either that or "10-B, up to 7-B via Flow Method" works. I assume because it requires them to feed mana into themselves that technically they could theoretically pump less into themselves and thus have lower stats, so you wouldnt be wrong with wanting that to be represented, but also practically that (I assume) never happens, so it's also not wrong to just lit the hard value without a "Varies" or "up to" either

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Listing it as a weakness might be safer than listing it as an amp. While a couple verses have this weakness, in Re:Zero's case it's been specifically pointed out and used in the story. It's not likely to come up in vs threads though, since SBA has them start off aware of each other.

I am still partial to this option as well, seems like a clean option and probably requires less editing.

 

[Apeironaxim]

Listing it as a weakness might be safer than listing it as an amp. While a couple verses have this weakness, in Re:Zero's case it's been specifically pointed out and used in the story. It's not likely to come up in vs threads though, since SBA has them start off aware of each other.

Well you have to train to be able to do it consciously, train to empower yourself with mana, and otherwise it only happens seemingly inconsistently without said training and probably lacking refinement. The default state of these characters is 10-B, and they need to train a method to empower themselves to get higher. Heck, there's even an explicit exception to this by having beings, dragons, who are naturally that strong without the need to use a technique to amplify themselves. This has honestly far more in common with being listed as an amp than a weakness

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Humans in Re Zero have a magical organ which allows them to naturally take in mana from the surroundings, said mana can then be used to strengthen them to superhuman levels, however they do have to train to learn how to do so consciously, otherwise it's an unconscious thing which happens in moments of danger/stress, so basically adrenaline.

But yea I am neutral really on whether to go for 10-B, 7-B via Flow Method, or just leave everything the same and just list this explanation under the weakness section.

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

Last I remember we were going with 10-B, 7-B via Flow Method, so I suppose you agree with that?

Yes.

 

[Apeironaxim]

I get that the main showing in-verse for how important it is is via off-guarding, but I do have to say that it's theoretically relevant beyond that like I said earlier, such as some kind of ability to drain/nullify all mana in things, nullifying of supernatural stuff, somehow they run out of mana after a very long fight, etc. So the weakness wouldnt just have to say when they're off-guard, but also have to mention how they would be 10-B in stats in general when not empowering themselves with mana. Which again at that point is still how people with amps work, and listing such characters as "Base, X via Thing" is just typically how this sort of thing is indexed. I get that the weakness method is technically easier editing, but it's not really in-line with how similar powers are indexed on the wiki as a whole

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

I do agree with the @Apeironaxim on this, however wouldn't it scale to base Subaru's feats in arc 1-2 and thus be tier 9B not 10B?

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Not really, the difference between an ordinary person and a "superhuman" is in the handling of the mana within their body via the Flow Method, also in dangerous situations a person's gate can open and a person can enter a state similar to the Flow Method.

Subaru is a guy who is constantly in physical danger, it's obvious imo that his feats are from the latter scenario, gate opening due to danger granting superhuman abilities, so yea Subaru would be 10-B or maybe 10-A due to being fit pre isekai, 9-B via Flow Method.

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

Not really, the difference between an ordinary person and a "superhuman" is in the handling of the mana within their body via the Flow Method, also in dangerous situations a person's gate can open and a person can enter a state similar to the Flow Method.

Subaru is a guy who is constantly in physical danger, it's obvious imo that his feats are from the latter scenario, gate opening due to danger granting superhuman abilities, so yea Subaru would be 10-B or maybe 10-A due to being fit pre isekai, 9-B via Flow Method.

While this is true, you did have to then prove that Subaru could use flow method to a degree even without any training and without his gate even opening. Like arc 2, maybe you could argue because his gate was open by then due to shamak but Puck or Beatrice said that before arc 2 his gate was unused which was super odd.

It is also worth remembering, that people in the new world have better vision and senses, and Ram even after being sent back to her base form where she was described as a human girl, could still perform superhuman feats like dodging beastified garfiel.

Another one is garfiel tanking Patrasche ramming into him which was calc'd at 9B too, this was after he was completely and utterly exhausted after fighting otto, ram and subaru. He was barely even able to stand up

I just dont see them as being human level or even peak human level

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Unused gates can open during times of danger, this is in the scans in the op. You don't need to know the flow method to achieve superhuman feats.

The Ram feat has been debated to death and considered an inconsistency. The Garfiel feat might be worth looking at though since Puck did drain his mana, would have to relook whether he was completely out of mana, or just low, there would be a.difference there.

Also there may be an argument that Garfiel is just naturally tough due to not being 100% human, having demi-human blood, that's speculative though.

 

[Zabazab]

The Garfiel feat might be worth looking at though since Puck did drain his mana, would have to relook whether he was completely out of mana, or just low, there would be a.difference there.

Puck was constantly draining Garfiel's mana while his Divine Protection was constantly restoring his mana. But it doesn't matter either way because the fact that Garfiel was sent flying means he doesn't get to scale to Patrasche's charge.

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

I just realized sleeping Emilia was about to get LS diff'd by Subaru in arc 4

Unused gates can open during times of danger, this is in the scans in the op.

The scan says and i quote
"Normally unused gates"
This means that they could have been used previously and we know that a lot of the rz tech runs on mana which means they did be using their gates in that situation.

In Subaru's case specifically, his gate was unused to the point where puck was surprised and found it strange

“Lia. It’s not that simple. You’ve only ever seen humans who are pretty good at using mana. Well, apart from that, Subaru’s situation is a little bit special.”

Emilia tilted her head and asked, “Special?”

Puck crossed his arms and nodded at Emilia. “From what I’ve seen after taking a quick glance, Subaru’s Gate is basically shut tight. Even if he has never seen a spirit or magic before, isn’t it too closed? It’s on that level.”

“That’s strange… Even if you only lived a normal life, that wouldn’t happen, right?”

“Yep, that’s why it’s strange. Subaru didn’t live a normal life.”

Without any proof of it otherwise, i think its really unlikely that he was able to use the flow method.

You don't need to know the flow method to achieve superhuman feats.

The Ram feat has been debated to death and considered an inconsistency.

Worth mentioning that it was accepted 3 different times and rejected only once, and since then we have had confirmation on the logic breaking dodges. The way I see it, the Ram feat is worth discussing (albeit not now)

My main point was that she was able to move superhumanly despite being reduced to "human level" which is separate from the dodging feat since it implies her base stats to be higher than normal human level, which you did agree with

The Garfiel feat might be worth looking at though since Puck did drain his mana, would have to relook whether he was completely out of mana, or just low, there would be a.difference there.

Also there may be an argument that Garfiel is just naturally tough due to not being 100% human, having demi-human blood, that's speculative though.

I think its really unlikely for that to be the case, so far we haven't really had any indication of that

Puck was constantly draining Garfiel's mana while his Divine Protection was constantly restoring his mana. But it doesn't matter either way because the fact that Garfiel was sent flying means he doesn't get to scale to Patrasche's charge.

him flying away is irrelevant, he wasn't blasted into pieces like a normal human would be.

 

[Apeironaxim]

clearly everyone scales to 7-A, since the emphasis on Regulus being a "totally normal human in all respects" while also giving him 7-A dura, so totally normal humans in Re Zero are all actually tier 7 still

Memes aside, im sure you can like, take Subaru's training or something in the downtime before Priestella? Like he's not always in danger, especially during that small timeskip time. Unless you say it cant be proven that the others scale to a trained "normal" human, because they just use Flow Method to compensate all the time when doing any notable physical activity, so their base state has never had proper training/improvement. Of course this is all null if there's nothing to be gleamed from that time anyway.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

The Puck quote about Subaru's gate being unnaturally closed is pretty good, I think we could take that to mean all the feats Subaru performed up until then wasn't due to Flow Method, we would have to re-look at when he first used Shamac, but from memory it should be before the feat he is currently scaling to on his profile, so that one couldn't be used, I remember another feat of him kicking Ton, Chin, Rachin in arc 1 being calc but no idea where that is.

The next thing would be sort of what Apeironaxim said, Subaru was an anomaly in his gate being closed, for everyone else it would be natural to have their gates open, and potential gaining access to superhuman stats, what does a normal person without that even look like? How exactly do you prove they scale to Subaru, yes Isekai people have better senses but you could wave that off as a benefit of constantly being exposed to mana via their gates, but says nothing when you take that mana away, which where Ram and Garfiel come in.

I still don't think anyone is going take it seriously that with mana Ram and Garfiel at that point in time would be on a similar scale, for Ram to lose that mana and still be close cause lol skill, the scene is made out to be due to her talent and skill she could keep up, not about her speed or what not, which at a glance would make sense if not for the ludicrous speed difference, precog + instinctive reaction and skill shouldn't make up for it, but lets not rehash that again here.

As for Garfiel he was drained of enough mana to lose his transformation, but with his feet on the ground, his blessing would replenish that, but as Zab it's a constant back and forth, in the instant he was hit, was he out of mana, or just had a tiny amount, enough to take the hit and not die? Seems speculative, but you would think even even it was a very small amount, he would have had some mana there, but I could be wrong.

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

The Puck quote about Subaru's gate being unnaturally closed is pretty good, I think we could take that to mean all the feats Subaru performed up until then wasn't due to Flow Method, we would have to re-look at when he first used Shamac, but from memory it should be before the feat he is currently scaling to on his profile, so that one couldn't be used, I remember another feat of him kicking Ton, Chin, Rachin in arc 1 being calc but no idea where that is.

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:SeijiSetto/Soob_OBLITERATES_A_Not-Child

The next thing would be sort of what Apeironaxim said, Subaru was an anomaly in his gate being closed, for everyone else it would be natural to have their gates open, and potential gaining access to superhuman stats, what does a normal person without that even look like? How exactly do you prove they scale to Subaru, yes Isekai people have better senses but you could wave that off as a benefit of constantly being exposed to mana via their gates, but says nothing when you take that mana away, which where Ram and Garfiel come in.

I still don't think anyone is going take it seriously that with mana Ram and Garfiel at that point in time would be on a similar scale, for Ram to lose that mana and still be close cause lol skill, the scene is made out to be due to her talent and skill she could keep up, not about her speed or what not, which at a glance would make sense if not for the ludicrous speed difference, precog + instinctive reaction and skill shouldn't make up for it, but lets not rehash that again here.

As for Garfiel he was drained of enough mana to lose his transformation, but with his feet on the ground, his blessing would replenish that, but as Zab it's a constant back and forth, in the instant he was hit, was he out of mana, or just had a tiny amount, enough to take the hit and not die? Seems speculative, but you would think even even it was a very small amount, he would have had some mana there, but I could be wrong.

Tbf, if Subaru and gang genuinely thought he would go splat when Patrasche knocks into him then they wouldn't have gone for that. They must have had good reason to believe that even if he was nerfed down to his normal self, he did still be able to tank it no issues

Btw, that patrasche ramming scene is like a car crashing into you except the energy losses wouldn't be as bad because a car is designed to absorb and dissipate as much force as possible