The nuking of Undertale: Part 1 out of 6 or 7

[StrymULTRA]

I'm getting so god damn tired of answering the same arguments again, again and again.
The thread is 6 pages with the same god damn nonsensical arguments. I don't know why I'm repeating the same thing again expecting people to listen.

That's the worst proposal ever and the most inconsistent one where you are nitpicking pixel scaling and ignoring STORY POINTS AND THE NARRATIVE ITSELF. Hear yourself, you are saying every inconsistency I brought up works on 40-45cm souls. You are saying shyren is spitting out 50cm notes from her mouth, you are saying Napstablook is shotting meter tall tears from his eyes, etc etc. Stop wanking the verse.

Look at how angry and agitated you're becoming. You're the one making things heated with these remarks, and you're looking hella condescending too. Just accept that maybe your method isn't perfect for everyone.

My input is definitely limited here atm given irl matters + the speed at how the discussion here is becoming, but I really don't like this tone and accusations of yours.

Anyway, in lack of any real agreement on the SOUL's size (given that's definitely bound to change between fights for gameplay purposes), I suppose I'll have to tentatively side with Armor until more comes up.

 

[AyOgUyS]

We have a amalgamate that literally become the battle box and other that literally corrupted (like a glitch that I think it "noise" if we belive monster magic is communication)

We also have flowey and asriel that literally remove and expand the battle box.

amalgamates aren't normal monsters and hyperdeath Asriel is a very obvious outlier, he has the power of 6 human souls + all of monsterkind

 

[AyOgUyS]

also let's try to remain respectful

 

[Anonymous_Learner]

of course the crt that mentions 67 gets to 7 pages

 

[AyOgUyS]

of course the crt that mentions 67 gets to 7 pages

any downgrade thread for a popular verse usually gets to this level. anyway I still think either going with 15 cm soul or armor's method would be the most reliable.

 

[Rodriiogo]

Look at how angry and agitated you're becoming. You're the one making things heated with these remarks, and you're looking hella condescending too. Just accept that maybe your method isn't perfect for everyone.

My input is definitely limited here atm given irl matters + the speed at how the discussion here is becoming, but I really don't like this tone and accusations of yours.

I simply said I'm getting tired of mentioning the same exact points every single time, I'd be fine with people refusing and bringing new points but I have been addressing the same point since page 2 and no one (other than armor now which as you saw I agreed that it is a fine way of doing it) has brought something new, logical and not mentioned in the OP or already during the thread.

 

[Echidnacodefan2512]

amalgamates aren't normal monsters and hyperdeath Asriel is a very obvious outlier, he has the power of 6 human souls + all of monsterkind

The Amalgamates are being forced to go all out due determinetion which increase thier strenght but create "noise" in thier magic but like monsters already have "determinetion" (which is literally water due deltarune connecting darkness with water) but isnt on the level of a human would have soo thier bodys

And remenber alphys injected several times determinetion in thier bodys

So, yes, they aren't normal monsters, but as Determination seems to push their bodies to the limit, some of these monsters demonstrate abilities similar to Frisk's at the end of the Pacifist Route like the bad memory item with being a physical memory.

(And since it a memory ot does make me question why physical memory would heal and hurt yor body at same time)

 

[AyOgUyS]

So, yes, they aren't normal monsters

so we shouldn't give all monsters spatial manip (irrelevant to thread anyways)

 

[Echidnacodefan2512]

so we shouldn't give all monsters spatial manip (irrelevant to thread anyways)

Yeah, you probally right but anyway does anyone will find actually the size ?

 

[AyOgUyS]

Yeah, you probally right but anyway does anyone will find actually the size ?

I think using either 15 cm for the soul based on OP's arguments or going with Armor's methods are the best options here, the opposition does not sound very convincing to me

 

[Qurbonboev]

Snip

I won't be badmouthed by someone who repeatedly misrepresented something I said.

And btw, we literally never debate LS question. Are you down for it

 

[AyOgUyS]

I won't be badmouthed by someone who repeatedly misrepresented something I said.

And btw, we literally never debate LS question. Are you down for it

Let's all try to remain respectful pls, this debate is getting very hostile

 

[Thunderman101]

feels the debaters aura

 

[StrymULTRA]

I simply said I'm getting tired of mentioning the same exact points every single time, I'd be fine with people refusing and bringing new points but I have been addressing the same point since page 2 and no one (other than armor now which as you saw I agreed that it is a fine way of doing it) has brought something new, logical and not mentioned in the OP or already during the thread.

I mean that there was already a certain user that has been banned for constant badmouthing of both normal users and staff in threads and had generally all kinds of outbursts specifically about this verse, so let's not relive that again, thank you very much.

 

[Rodriiogo]

I already said I will be waiting for the staffs currently since the constant hitting on the same note (point) is getting just annoying and everything has basically already been talked about. I'm just adding the Armor way currently to both the OP and calculations. Do not clog the thread now until staff appears.

 

[Echidnacodefan2512]

feels the debaters aura

Wait until they see the meaty and candy joke in deltarune.

 

[Qurbonboev]

Let's all try to remain respectful pls, this debate is getting very hostile

I will try to do so. But it's difficult to do while opponents claims that I never brought new points, while heavily misrepresenting them.

Snip

We debated constantly about SOUL size, not LS. I am still waiting on your response on this question

 

[Echidnacodefan2512]

The soul actually have 2 pixel more in deltarune

 

[Rodriiogo]

Changed the OP and the blog to now have Armor's method.
Will now wait for more staff opinions before continuing any type of discussion as of means to not flood them with more than it's already done.

 

[Qurbonboev]

Snip

Are you aware that it's disrespectful and counter productive to not engage with verse subs when they debate you regarding one of the points of CRT?

We debated constantly about SOUL size, not LS. I am still waiting on your response on this question

I can agree with Armor proposal, thought we still need some clarifications for edge cases.

 

[StrymULTRA]

I can agree with Armor proposal, thought we still need some clarifications for edge cases.

One of these can be Tsunderplane given that the SOUL specifically needs to get close to her, and we do in battle box.

The reason I thought of Mettaton was that A: he's human-like to the point that you can assume he's the height of a man and B: he sends attacks directly from his body so there's still direct battle box interaction

I'd prefer not using a measurement scaled off the overworld graphics at all, but truthfully I don't mind most solutions as long as they're not too insane.

Mind discussing the more edge cases where your method just can't be applied?

 

[Armorchompy]

Mind discussing the more edge cases where your method just can't be applied?

There aren't any, if you mean the first method. If one scales from Mettaton (or Asgore or whoever) to get a scale for the battle box and is fine with the assumption that such a scale remains roughly consistent between battles, then that can be applied to all battle box feats.

I suppose the idea here is that Tsunderplane is a real, plane-sized plane? That would imply that fight has a very different scale, but... what's the proof of that?

 

[StrymULTRA]

I suppose the idea here is that Tsunderplane is a real, plane-sized plane? That would mean very different scale, but... what's the proof of that?

No I mean that we do actually see her in the overworld with Frisk once.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

 

[Armorchompy]

No I mean that we do actually see her in the overworld with Frisk once.

Oh. Well, in such a situation you could pixel scale her and use that for her fight. Though there's also a reasonable argument that the overworld sprites are just kind of inherently unreliable and should be valued less than the battle box ones anyways due to smaller size and lesser quality. I think either choice is justifiable, I'd personally lean towards the latter.

 

[Qurbonboev]

However while I'm sure it's not 100% consistent I'd be surprised if there were any massive exceptions and getting a rough sense of scale is enough to avoid massive calc flaws

I can agree with your proposal overall, but there are two edge cases that should be handled.
1. Cases like Tsunderplane, Migosp and Dog couple. For example, we know for a fact that it's Tsunderplane that is flying in the battlebox(based mostly on flavour text). Should we scale her(and bombs that she drop) in battlebox based on her overworld measurements? Sure overworld sprites are a bit inconsistent, but it's pretty clear that she isn't intended to be less than 1 feet long
2. There is no battlebox and dialogue box in Omega Flowey fight. Closest thing we have to scale is Flowey TV screen, which is present in almost all sequences, including one in overworld, where we can see it flash, and we can directly compare it to Frisk. It is ok to use it for pixelscaling

 

[Armorchompy]

Sure overworld sprites are a bit inconsistent, but it's pretty clear that she isn't intended to be less than 1 feet long

It's not that much of a scale change. She'd end up what, a little smaller than Mettaton's height?

2. There is no battlebox and dialogue box in Omega Flowey fight. Closest thing we have to scale is Flowey TV screen, which is present in almost all sequences, including one in overworld, where we can see it flash, and we can directly compare it to Frisk. It is ok to use it for pixelscaling

TVs can be as big or small as they're wanted to be and this is doubly true when they're part of a reality warper's body. I'd just use whatever the agreed upon scale is.

 

[Echidnacodefan2512]

Finally peace...

 

[Qurbonboev]

It's not that much of a scale change. She'd end up what, a little smaller than Mettaton's height?

What exactly are you proposing? Find Tsunderplane height based on comparison of her battle sprite to dialogue box(on length you agreed upon), and then use this size for Tsunderplane (and associated with her objects) in battlebox? Or something else

TVs can be as big or small as they're wanted to be and this is doubly true when they're part of a reality warper's body. I'd just use whatever the agreed upon scale is.

Agreed upon scale is using dialogue box length. Which doesn't obviously work in this fight. And at least TV seems to remain consistently big in this fight, conserving it's size and shape in transitions like this

 

[Armorchompy]

What? Nothing I proposed has to do with the dialogue boxes or even the size of the battle box itself. What I'm saying is you can find the rough scale of Undertale combat and assume it's consistent, you don't need to actually be physically scaling off the same object or any object at all. If a pixel is half a cm in the Mettaton fight and you accept that the scale is roughly consistent that allows you to say it's likely to be also half a cm in any other fight of the game, provided the pictures are at the same resolution of course. That ratio is what one finds by doing pixel scaling already, this is just assuming it's a similar ratio in most fights (which is the same as claiming the Soul has a consistent size, only based on better evidence).

 

[Da3ggman]

Everyone’s babbling for 6 pages about the size of the soul as if that shit ain’t as inconsistent as Baki, when we could lowkey axe battle box scaling due to there being no real or consistent way to scale it. Toby did say that this game is 100% inconsistent when it comes to pixels scaling and sizes, after all.

 

[Qurbonboev]

That ratio is what one finds by doing pixel scaling already, this is just assuming it's a similar ratio in most fights (which is the same as claiming the Soul has a consistent size, only based on better evidence)

They are entirely equivalent ideas though, since Soul almost always(could be some exceptions, but I don't recall any) has same size in battlebox

Could you show in examples how should it be done. Like how exactly Tsunderplane size (and size of bombs it launches) should be measured in this fight?

 

[Armorchompy]

They are entirely equivalent ideas though, since Soul almost always(could be some exceptions, but I don't recall any) has same size in battlebox

It does, but calcing its size isn't something you can do reliably IMO. I'm not arguing my method is different I just think it's better and requires less assumptions.

Could you show in examples how should it be done. Like how exactly Tsunderplane size (and size of bombs it launches) should be measured in this fight?

Well uh, let's say Mettaton is 170 cm and 340 pixels, which means 0.5 cm/px. Assuming the picture's size is the same, you can just scale the bombs using that ratio, meaning that if they're, say, 25 px long they end up at 12.5 cm.

If the picture's size is not the same you downscale/upscale as needed. For example if the original picture that was used for scaling was 1080p and the one you're using for Tsunderplane is 480p (no idea why you'd be using such a small pic but let's just go with that) you just do 0.5 / 1080 * 480 = 0.222 cm/px.

 

[Rodriiogo]

Everyone’s babbling for 6 pages about the size of the soul as if that shit ain’t as inconsistent as Baki, when we could lowkey axe battle box scaling due to there being no real or consistent way to scale it. Toby did say that this game is 100% inconsistent when it comes to pixels scaling and sizes, after all.

At this point I'd agree with this aswell if people will keep bringing on inconsistencies for every method ever conceivable, either choose the one who you think is more consistent and ignore the inconsistencies. But if you don't wanna ignore the inconsistencies, then scrap battle box scaling entirely, there you go, that's the consistency you want.

 

[Armorchompy]

Does anyone here object to my method?

 

[Qurbonboev]

Well uh, let's say Mettaton is 170 cm and 340 pixels, which means 0.5 cm/px. Assuming the picture's size is the same, you can just scale the bombs using that ratio, meaning that if they're, say, 25 px long they end up at 12.5 cm

It's geniunely more hassle(mostly with resolutions)than most of what actually was proposed
And besides it would make Tsunderplane in battlebox pitifully small (and I don't think she has size manipulation). It would be better to scale of bombs based on their comparison to battlebox Tsunderplane(which we know is same as actual Tsunderplane), and find her actual size via method you proposed(which give her actual size as something close to Mettaton one).

Oh, also. Assuming Mettaton or Papyrus have same height as average adult is fine-ish proposal. But we actually have comparison of one big monster to group of mostly average looking adults. Opposition against this method was mostly due to it having inconsistencies with overworld sprites, but it's obvious that intro would convey actual difference of height between monsters and adults much better.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Does anyone here object to my method?

I mean, you obviously can't use that for every single fight, otherwise you end up with stuff like Tsunderplane and her bombs being barely more than 10 cm long, or Annoying Dog being shorter than Papyrus' foot.

 

[Armorchompy]

It's geniunely more hassle(mostly with resolutions)than most of what actually was proposed

It's really not. If you don't wanna deal with resolutions you can just pixel scale some random consistent object - hell, even the Soul itself, it's not like the sprite changes.

And besides it would make Tsunderplane in battlebox pitifully small (and I don't think she has size manipulation). It would be better to scale of bombs based on their comparison to battlebox Tsunderplane(which we know is same as actual Tsunderplane), and find her actual size via method you proposed(which give her actual size as something close to Mettaton one).

Oh, I understand. I thought you were referring to Tsunderplane's combat sprite, not the plane sprite that appears to attack you. I think it's not actually her doing that directly, she's just making miniature airplanes with magic. In both her attacks she sends several flying at you at once, and they don't have her hat.

Oh, also. Assuming Mettaton or Papyrus have same height as average adult is fine-ish proposal. But we actually have comparison of one big monster to group of mostly average looking adults. Opposition against this method was mostly due to it having inconsistencies with overworld sprites, but it's obvious that intro would convey actual difference of height between monsters and adults much better.

True, though I worry Asgore is shown as bigger there than he usually is and it'll lead to some strange results.

 

[Qurbonboev]

Oh, I understand. I thought you were referring to Tsunderplane's combat sprite, not the plane sprite that appears to attack you. I think it's not actually her doing that directly, she's just making miniature airplanes with magic. In both her attacks she sends several flying at you at once, and they don't have her hat.

Exact same reasoning was denied for Mettaton legs.
It's pretty heavily implied that she is one that attacks us in battlebox, not her hypothetical clones.

True, though I worry Asgore is shown as bigger there than he usually is and it'll lead to some strange results.

"Is shown as bigger than he usually is", compared to who? Frisk doesn't count since we regard size of overworld sprites as something that is mostly driven by artistic choices. And we don't know canon heights for other monsters

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Oh, I understand. I thought you were referring to Tsunderplane's combat sprite, not the plane sprite that appears to attack you. I think it's not actually her doing that directly, she's just making miniature airplanes with magic. In both her attacks she sends several flying at you at once, and they don't have her hat.

You spare her by using the "Approach" ACT and making her flustered as you move closer to the planes. Do think it's just her.